Door spacers

Started by Petrus, August 30, 2022, 11:17

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Petrus

We´ve all read about the horrible scuttle shake of cabrios. Even in tests of the ZZw30 although it is a relatively  good example.

In the context of the conceptual problem of a cabrio with traditional doors it is a small wonder and compliment to engineers that most cabrios do not twist the doors out of the catches.

This morning took a photo illustrating the issue:





Easy to see that ALL of the stiffness is in the floor which is basically a corrugated plane.

Also easy to see what solidly locking the doors in the frame would add: Structure; structural form stiffness.

Enter Dev´s door spacers and the TRD door lock ´riders´.
Although both add rigidity to the door in it´s frame, they do a different thing at a different hight in the door.
It remained to be seen how they compliment each other or not. I decided to have a go and see it  ;)


It has been measured that Dev´s spacers reduce the distortion of the tub by 50%.
I have fitted the TRD riders in addition to them and they reduced the remaining distortion agaín by almost half.
The face of the open door shows clearly how both fittings locate the door at different heights, complimenting locations.

This morning I did a test drive over the roughest roads in the area.
The full range between an intricate multi layered patchwork of tarmac generations and cobble stones rearranged by tractors pulling overloaded trailers on supersingle tyres: An assortment of surfaces that make your technical empathy crínge.
Also took a bewildering variety of traffic humps & hurdles at various angles.

Verdict: Yes, it is also notable when driving. Not just in less shake, rattle & roll over rough surfaces but also when changing direction of course.
Imo it is worth fitting bóth.

On a side note, the resident gf came to have a look and observed they look really nice. Vastly better than the standard loop.
I said that it is hidden inside a closed door. But évery time you get in or out you see it it, looking better. Ok, I agree, it does.

ucb

Not sure that I have heard of TRD door riders

Petrus


Nvy

Where did you get them from?

I also noticed that the fender braces are adding in a bit stiffness too. So it might be of interest.

Petrus

#4
Quote from: Nvy on August 30, 2022, 16:42Where did you get them from?

Kabuki-jp JDM store Japan on ebay.

QuoteI also noticed that the fender braces are adding in a bit stiffness too. So it might be of interest.

Those brace the door hinges on the A pillar to the fender wall. It is forward of the tub. Does not address the fundamental issue illustrated by both doors open; which is only the floor connecting the A pillars with the B pillars.
 
Until the door is shut so solidly on the B pillar that the chassis flex loads the door hinges there is no sense in bracing those. If there is at all in light of the extra weight. It is probably a bracing which blew over from fixed roof cars. Like the TRD door thingies for a cabrio blowing over the other way. Imo @Joesson was spot on concerning that.

Back to the door thingies; Dev´s and TRD´s: None too costly, super-easy to DIY install, weigh less than a cup of coffee and totally, méasurably! stabilize the tub.

Gibla

I was trying to find the thread, but I bought some TRD-like spacers, similar to your pics from a guy who maybe replicated the TRD ones ....cost ~£120 for the pair
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

Quote from: Gibla on August 30, 2022, 17:09I was trying to find the thread, but I bought some TRD-like spacers, similar to your pics from a guy who maybe replicated the TRD ones ....cost ~£120 for the pair

The 3D printed black plastic spacers?

Gibla

stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

#8
Quote from: Gibla on August 30, 2022, 17:17Yes @Petrus 

@J88TEO fitted those. No measurement as of yet. Maybe one for you?!
His photos and the pricing pushed me over the threshold of buying the TRD ones. The latter are peanuts more for me and ever so much more trick and bling. I always thought they would compliment the lower placed Delrin blocks very well because they do something different and are higher up.

I was positively surprised about the effect of Dev´s spacers and even more chuffed now with the bling TRD ´sliders´.

Here a short commercial video. The crux; how is wórks is from 01:00   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb7hKPY_oI4

In the metal it is even more clear and trick, The black plastics on the door contact the ditto inserts in de door slider and the set rides up the inner ramp, closing the space between door and B-pillar.
This and the lower placed Delrin  blocks by Dev create a near solid four point location of the door in the frame with the door latch locking it in place.  Before the door was basically floating in the rubbers.  You can test this by pushing the closed door (without spacers) against the rubbers. This shows that OEM the door adds no structural stiffness against the chassis twisting; it is only the floor.
It is also illustrated by some members observing the door rattling on the jamb as the rubbers age.

Gibla

#9
Interesting findings, I have both types, the TRD knock-offs, and Dev's door inserts, but have never tried both at the same time....this will be attended to asap  :)

Both types were initially quite impressive, but for whatever reason(especially the Dev variety) gradually increased the # of rattles ***, general buzziness, difficulty opening + closing doors (usually when v hot ...yes even in darkest Wales) and so they(Devs) were confined to the 'scrap' box out of sight out of mind. So thx for your ongoing inquisitive nature sir  8) 

*** to such an extent I thought the door hinges may ultimately break (maybe a false impression), but that was my perception, or just maybe the extra noise was generated from the driver's side upper front strut brace/shock mount ......difficult to pinpoint, just increasingly annoying so ditched 'em.
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

Odd, the rattle. Dev´s keep the door under ´load´ between rubbers, the spacer and the latch. The hinges should thus have léss play to rattle.

The above also sheds light on the difference of the Delrin blocks and the TRD slide. The sliding up it´s internal ramp takes up the space laterally, thus nót pushing against the rubbers thus not on the latch.
TRD came up with this to make SURE that the unlatching the door would not be impaired.

This is why I went for the combination.
- Dev´s takes up space at the lower part and as you noticed involves púshing action in order to ´load´ the rubbers and latch.
- TRD´s only takes up any lateral space higher up, at the latch; between door face and B pillar.

The black ones at the latch are I think akin Dev´s at the location of the TRD´s. Like Dev´s they take up the play by manual action.


Personally I think the Delrin spacers delightfully simple and effective with the drawback of a door under tension.
The TRD solution is the opposite; a mechanical complication with the added feature of not putting any load on the latch.

As to the pricing I think the TRD door stabilizers are relatively cheap because of the quality, the mechanical nature and the number of parts.
Whether one wants to spend the money is a different issue:
Dev´s áre cheaper and thus I pounced on those first. Afterwards did not push for the TRDs because I thought that overkill. Well, it is not  :))   Imo.


Gibla

upping this impression yet again

*** to such an extent I thought the door hinges may ultimately break (maybe a false impression), but that was my perception, or just maybe the extra noise was generated from the driver's side upper front strut brace/shock mount ......difficult to pinpoint, just increasingly annoying so ditched 'em <<<<< so not contained in the door rubbers as such

but have just reinstalled into one of my cars that also has the faux TRD .....very curious to see if your findings can be replicated
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 10:18but have just reinstalled into one of my cars that also has the faux TRD .....very curious to see if your findings can be replicated


´Faux TRD´ is imo a misnomer as functionally it is akin Dev´s too, cóntrary to the TRD which Toyota developed to nót load the latch.

As such you may very well increase the issues you experienced. As to increased rigidity I expect a limited increase as it is more of the same with an extra contact point.

So very interesting to read méasurements akin the youtube video.
None fitted can be emulated by both doors open.

Gibla

#13
In my non-Scientific manner, I have just driven an ~30 miles over largely poor UK 'B' roads and noticed an overall improvement ....but really too difficult for me to quantify.

Scuttle shake and rattling from 'below' seemed to be eliminated completely,however, not all good, the amount and intensity of roof rattling seems to have increased somewhat(possibly to be expected if floor area is 'reinforced' )
Solution :- leave the hardtop roof off , and put the soft-top down, et voila  all noises disappear  ;D 

ps I hope my new carbon- fibre hardtop improves these noise issues, or survives what I guesstimate to be increased *forces* in that area
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

#14
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 12:36not all good, the amount and intensity of roof rattling seems to have increased somewhat(possibly to be expected if floor area is 'reinforced'

Makes sense no?!  Without firmly connecting the two, the tub has more flex, conformity and the door is ´floating´ in the rubbers.
In both cases anything not firmly connected will now get more shaken by the road vibrations transferred.

For those who missed the order of twist/flex: With the Dev + TRD it is in the order of reducing 5 mm. to 1 mm.

Bottom line, happy that you are happy with a stiffer tub.

Gibla

Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 13:47Bottom line, happy that you are happy with a stiffer tub.

Indeed a very useful exercise + at least I have found a use for the discarded 'bars of white soap' that were consigned to a dusty drawer destined for oblivion or a repurposed Christmas gift to some distant acquaintance  ;D
 
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 14:31Indeed a very useful exercise + at least I have found a use for the discarded 'bars of white soap' that were consigned to a dusty drawer destined for oblivion or a repurposed Christmas gift to some distant acquaintance  ;D
 

You are btw uniquely ´qualified´ to make back to back on the road comparisons. I have only hard, dull measurements before and after at my disposal which are often surprisingly tricky to make ceteris paribus. This ones is as simple as it comes with not other factors involved.
Back to back on the road is véry informative.

Gibla

Yep, currently have(but not for very much longer)

2 cars with the 'Full Monty' ie with both TRD + Dev
1 car with Dev only (the rebought yellow one)
1 car with TRD only

whether or not my detection meter will work accurately I dunno, but I will try to do a back to back comparison of the 3 states (luckily, they have mostly an identical suspension age + spec along with front strut bracing via Carolynne
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 14:58Yep, currently have(but not for very much longer)

2 cars with the 'Full Monty' ie with both TRD + Dev
1 car with Dev only (the rebought yellow one)
1 car with TRD only

whether or not my detection meter will work accurately I dunno, but I will try to do a back to back comparison of the 3 states (luckily, they have mostly an identical suspension age + spec along with front strut bracing via Carolynne

Please distinguish TRD from the black 3D Delrin.

Btw, I don´t know which cars you have but there are differences between pfl and fl. Per example the TRD / Snelbaard front lower brace is for the PFL, the PFL is OEM already likewise braced whereas the latest version had a quite comprehensive upgrade there.


Gibla

^^^^ understood + only using 'TRD' for convenience ''Faux TRD'' if you prefer  :P
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 15:31^^^^ understood + only using 'TRD' for convenience ''Faux TRD'' if you prefer  :P

I prefer in the service of clarity but the bloke has a name no?! Vastly better still; after all he came up with his different version.


Bottom line being the conceptual issue illustrated and three different improvements explained  8)

Gibla

Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 17:03I prefer in the service of clarity but the bloke has a name no?! Vastly better still; after all he came up with his different version.


Bottom line being the conceptual issue illustrated and three different improvements explained  8)
Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 17:03I prefer in the service of clarity but the bloke has a name no?! Vastly better still; after all he came up with his different version.

But, slight issue .....I cannot recall the name of the guy I bought these off  :-[
 
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Petrus

#22
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 17:10But, slight issue .....I cannot recall the name of the guy I bought these off  :-[
 

Slight issue indeed as the name is John Sleight.

So Sleight´s door spacer?

Gibla

Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 17:35So Sleight´s door spacer?

JS ? simpler to recall + write
 
stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)

Gibla

stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un
stock 2000 Light Green(Cape Green)