Wings

Started by Petrus, September 27, 2022, 12:36

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Petrus

Alpine are launching an ugraded R version of the A110.
With the 2020 model being scuppered by C-word related issues, it basically is much the same.

Apart from more ponies and less weight for them to pull, the large rear wing springs in the eye.




Have a look at how Alpine executed it. The supports as forward as they could fit them, the spoiler just under the roof line, not sticking out behind the car and with a lip at the rear on the deck under the wing.

Here it is assisting in flight


Alex Knight

Do you think it's appropriate for a road car to have a big wing, or is it more drag than benefit?

Petrus

#2
Quote from: Alex Knight on September 29, 2022, 13:56Do you think it's appropriate for a road car to have a big wing, or is it more drag than benefit?

´Road car´ is too wide a concept to be able to address. They range from 600 to 3000 kg and that is a fundamental difference.
The heavier a car is the less the effect of negative lift because the forces are relatively smaller.

Also ´drag´ already is an answer no?! If that is a factor worth attention for road speeds, then the potentially positive effects of a wing are too.

Drag btw is not necessary ónly worse because of a wing.
Ours is a light car with not particularly great aero at the back and even Toyota realized that the lift under the front could be less.

For mé, mý use, a lower top speed and a potentially worse mileage are non issues, no loss. Lóve the extra stability and traction from among other aero, the rear wing on a road car.

But then you knew already .

Alex Knight

#3
Quote from: Petrus on September 29, 2022, 14:51´Road car´ is too wide a concept to be able to address. They range from 600 to 3000 kg and that is a fundamental difference.
The heavier a car is the less the effect of negative lift because the forces are relatively smaller.

Also ´drag´ already is an answer no?! If that is a factor worth attention for road speeds, then the potentially positive effects of a wing are too.

Drag btw is not necessary ónly worse because of a wing.
Ours is a light car with not particularly great aero at the back and even Toyota realized that the lift under the front could be less.

For mé, mý use, a lower top speed and a potentially worse mileage are non issues, no loss. Lóve the extra stability and traction from among other aero, the rear wing on a road car.

But then you knew already .


OK, well then let's narrow the window from 'Road Car' to ZZW30.

Does a road going ZZW30 benefit from a big wing, or does it cause more drag than benefit?

After watching this video to refresh my understanding of high pressure, low pressure and drag, and knowing that, as a general rule, rear wings do not begin to create tangible downforce effects until 100KPH, relative to the average 'spirited' speed at which these cars can be driven within reason on the road, a big wing on a road-going ZZW30 is a false economy. It creates more drag than useable downforce. A waste of time and money, you might say.

One would be, in effect, knowingly making your car worse and less efficient.

May I also contest that the internet is FULL of resources which cover the above topic and more in significantly more detail.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to fill this forum with information that is already readily available, but I find it very irritating.

Petrus

I measured.
Have a look at Kyle Engineerings youtube too.
He measures the cornering speed difference for his ´buggy´ at what is legal road speed.
That roughly coincides with my own measurements.
From 60 km/h my wing/lip combo creates measurable negative lift. From 80 km/h it is noticeable more stable and at legal max highway speed the force is nearing 10% of the weight on the rear axle.
Above this or with a bit of headwind it gets above what I can measure.

Remember that ány effect is free extra traction/stability at no increase of centrifugal force.
Even if ´only´ 3%  through a 90 km/h corner that is 3% regardless of tyres.
3% extra margin. I will take it, thank you.
TIOLI


And economy is not much of an issue when having fun smearing AD08R wubbah up and down the mountains is a priority in life  ;D
The cost of the wing (foamboard sideplates and 3D supports included) was one diner for two at Indian restaurant at the coast. Tough choice, I admit  8)







Petrus

Right, that is settled then.
Vented bonnet, rear wing with lip under it.
If Róssi has it  8)  ;D





He was testing M4 GT3 in Barcelona this weekend in preparation for the 12h and WRT championship. This on the road to 2024 Le Mans.
And that all for basically just the fun of it  :))

Zxrob

Quote from: Alex Knight on September 29, 2022, 13:56Do you think it's appropriate for a road car to have a big wing, or is it more drag than benefit?

Neither
Big wings on a daily, look fooking awful. Period :))

Rob
Adventure before dementia 😁

Petrus

Quote from: Zxrob on October 14, 2022, 14:27Neither
Big wings on a daily, look fooking awful. Period :))

Rob

No discussing taste.
Some like the daughter, some like the mother, some even both.

And the average taste, well-... I mean, suv´s are very popular models  ::)

Unless your daily use is traffic jam crawling or the like, they work; they don´t care which day you go where for what.