Which injectors- opinions welcome

Started by jvanzyl, December 2, 2022, 10:55

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jvanzyl

Hi all,
My default choice for the upcoming turbo conversion was to use the yellow 2zz injectors that I have. (320cc). Figured they'd be a good starting point with low boost etc..

But going through other build threads is clear that people haven't gone with that option (at least not for very long) - and I'd welcome your opinions the current decent bang for Buck is.

I've found some 650cc that are theoretically made for the 1zz by ksm
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143828156249?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=DJ9JEIWyRFO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=fFOx8hr6Rnu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

They look pretty similar so thought they'd be an easy drop in solution.

Is there any knowledge on the brand or other options to consider out there that don't require a special fuel rail etc?

Cheers!
01 Silver 1ZZ<br />The Smile Machine: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=59837

Nvy

FIC ~ 300 quids from Paul, you get nice packaging plus a sheet to make the tune easy.

jvanzyl

Quote from: Nvy on December  2, 2022, 17:28FIC ~ 300 quids from Paul, you get nice packaging plus a sheet to make the tune easy.

Could you elaborate?
Is that Paul at TCB and is FIC the brand?
01 Silver 1ZZ<br />The Smile Machine: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=59837

threepot

Stock 320's would be too small..... @90% duty cycle / 45 psi rail = max of about 190bhp flywheel - thus why they are in a stock 2ZZ engine.

It all depends what you are shooting for.

Bigger injectors have less control at low flow rates, thus your idle and tip-in/cruise is hard or even impossible to achieve accuracy, thus you fall into all that popping and banging round urban areas which is pretty cockend, and running off stoch with its fuel wastage, bore wash and oil dilution problems.

650's are good for about 380bhp @ 90% @ 45psi. So you have to ask yourself how much power do you want to make, because if its 250bhp then a 440cc would be more fitting and would make tuning the rest of the tables away from WOT easier to achieve.

(I am not a tuner or mapper etc so take my view for what it is... a half knowing fumbler)

This injector size calculator has been helpful in many of my side quests:- https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/hp-calculator

jvanzyl

Quote from: threepot on December  6, 2022, 11:13Stock 320's would be too small..... 90% duty cycle / 45 psi rail = max of about 190bhp flywheel - thus why they are in a stock 2ZZ engine.

It all depends what you are shooting for.

Bigger injectors have less control at low flow rates, thus your idle and tip-in/cruise is hard or even impossible to achieve accuracy, thus you fall into all that popping and banging round urban areas which is pretty cockend, and running off stoch with its fuel wastage, bore wash and oil dilution problems.

650's are good for about 380bhp 90% 45psi. So you have to ask yourself how much power do you want to make, because if its 250bhp then a 440cc would be more fitting and would make tuning the rest of the tables away from WOT easier to achieve.

(I am not a tuner or mapper etc so take my view for what it is... a half knowing fumbler)

This injector size calculator has been helpful in many of my side quests:- https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/hp-calculator


Excellent information and explanation- thank you! Definitely not going for 380bhp. This needs to be as reliable as possible. KSM do 440cc https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143970212228?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=DJ9JEIWyRFO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=fFOx8hr6Rnu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Any thoughts on if this is good value or too cheap to be of any decent quality? Ambition is circa 200 at the wheels.

01 Silver 1ZZ<br />The Smile Machine: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=59837

Carolyn

I was always taught to use the smallest injector that will do the job.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

Nvy

Quote from: jvanzyl on December  2, 2022, 23:02Could you elaborate?
Is that Paul at TCB and is FIC the brand?

FIC fuel injector clinic, Paul at TBC yeah. He did a rly nice deal couple of years ago.

shnazzle

I always still stick by the fact that the 239hp Helen's made was on 440cc injectors and they were barely tickled. Calculations also work out well for 440cc.

The next thing to think is; are you installing a RRFPR with fuel return or not? Sometimes people (wrongly) use bigger injectors to compensate for the "reduced" fuel pressure at boost.

Anyway, 630cc is massively overkill.


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...neutiquam erro.

Call the midlife!

Quote from: shnazzle on December  6, 2022, 21:14I always still stick by the fact that the 239hp Helen's made was on 440cc injectors and they were barely tickled. Calculations also work out well for 440cc.

The next thing to think is; are you installing a RRFPR with fuel return or not? Sometimes people (wrongly) use bigger injectors to compensate for the "reduced" fuel pressure at boost.

Anyway, 630cc is massively overkill.


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I'm deeply regretting following someone else down the 630cc route and I've never even turned the key on mine 😂
I can feel a change of plan coming soon...
60% of the time it works everytime...

shnazzle

I'm hardly a knowledgeable authority on the matter.
All I've got to go off is what I experienced on one mr2 and seen in the community (here and otherwise)

440cc just makes sense also because they don't max out until like 280-300hp, which you're unlikely to want to run on an unbuilt 1zz anyway,and on a stock gearbox.


630cc works fine. I'd love to see if you ever see more than 60% duty cycle haha. So, good for longevity of the injectors? :)
...neutiquam erro.

Call the midlife!

Quote from: shnazzle on December  6, 2022, 21:33I'm hardly a knowledgeable authority on the matter.
All I've got to go off is what I experienced on one mr2 and seen in the community (here and otherwise)

440cc just makes sense also because they don't max out until like 280-300hp, which you're unlikely to want to run on an unbuilt 1zz anyway,and on a stock gearbox.


630cc works fine. I'd love to see if you ever see more than 60% duty cycle haha. So, good for longevity of the injectors? :)
Well as previously discussed I started the build with a view to building in redundancies, future proofing for what I thought might end up as a built engine in the future.
A year on and most of the turbo parts are back in boxes, waiting to be tried again next year 😂
60% of the time it works everytime...

threepot

You will find if you dig around the Toyota / Subaru / Mazda parts catalogues there will be an OEM injector of suitable dimensions that fit the rail + manifold without modification and have the correct plug on them. A few washers under the fuel rail can make all sorts fit the bill.

RX8's make good donors for other Denso stuff in the past. MX5 turbos seem to be into...

195500-4450 425cc
297500-1230 450cc

And they are chasing a similar target. But I'm just talking crap, you need to research it.

Nvy

Quote from: Call the midlife! on December  6, 2022, 21:50Well as previously discussed I started the build with a view to building in redundancies, future proofing for what I thought might end up as a built engine in the future.
A year on and most of the turbo parts are back in boxes, waiting to be tried again next year 😂

I have mine in boxes for the better part of 4 years. I got every bit needed and then some but dont have the time or a good builder around. Went to talk to a guy who is working on the local lotus school cars so it might be happening next year :)

jvanzyl

Hi all- cheers for the input. The KSMs I listed from what can tell should be stock dimensions. I just haven't heard of them before.. not that I know lots of brands..
01 Silver 1ZZ<br />The Smile Machine: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=59837

Call the midlife!

They're all probably made in the same sweatshop somewhere and given different branding anyway 👍🏻
60% of the time it works everytime...

threepot

This is why I would be more tempted to go for a second hand OEM injector, than end up in the current day pea soup of chinese clone injectors. Every dick and his dog are reselling Alibaba car parts nowadays... Febi, Blueprint, Firstline, Britpart, Lucas, Delphi etc then all the small businesses too. Just repacking things into their own brand packaging, laser etching their own part number and brand onto China stuff. I am in the middle of that OEM car parts distribution world.

I'd be just guessing, but think about this... 4 "Genuine" OEM injectors, made in a proper ISO factory for £148.04 including VAT (£24.67), and the ebay fee's (£12.22) and the postage (£4.50?) = £106.65 and there has to be a profit margin for KSM in there - 20% ?..... can you really buy a brand new Denso injector for £21.33 each even at wholesale? And shipping from supplier, import tax etc.

Or are they just these - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004459284987.html

shnazzle

Lotus for the 440s. Plenty available 
...neutiquam erro.

jvanzyl

Quote from: threepot on December  7, 2022, 12:08This is why I would be more tempted to go for a second hand OEM injector, than end up in the current day pea soup of chinese clone injectors. Every dick and his dog are reselling Alibaba car parts nowadays... Febi, Blueprint, Firstline, Britpart, Lucas, Delphi etc then all the small businesses too. Just repacking things into their own brand packaging, laser etching their own part number and brand onto China stuff. I am in the middle of that OEM car parts distribution world.

I'd be just guessing, but think about this... 4 "Genuine" OEM injectors, made in a proper ISO factory for £148.04 including VAT (£24.67), and the ebay fee's (£12.22) and the postage (£4.50?) = £106.65 and there has to be a profit margin for KSM in there - 20% ?..... can you really buy a brand new Denso injector for £21.33 each even at wholesale? And shipping from supplier, import tax etc.

Or are they just these - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004459284987.html

think you nailed it... those look very much like alibaba specials..

I will try and find some kind of genuine oem 440cc injectors.
01 Silver 1ZZ<br />The Smile Machine: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=59837

jvanzyl

#18
Right - so the cost has gone up a LOT..
https://deatschwerks.com/products/18u-11-0440-4?_pos=1&_sid=e09fdda07&_ss=r

I'll keep trying to find OEM Lotus ones.. I'm assuming these DW's are premium?

more from the US though..
https://www.turbokits.com/bosch-ev14-440cc-injectors.html
01 Silver 1ZZ<br />The Smile Machine: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=59837

Call the midlife!

If you're looking for 440 then try Bosch ones for the Astra VXR, supposedly a good fit and were around £55 when I was looking at them.
Or Siemens Deka.
60% of the time it works everytime...

threepot

Bosch 430cc I think....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325335270810


Or Green Giants = https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393130274156

(looks like we are posting similar thoughts!)

Call the midlife!

Quote from: threepot on December  7, 2022, 15:55Bosch 430cc I think....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325335270810


Or Green Giants = https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393130274156

(looks like we are posting similar thoughts!)
Might even have been 470 that I looked at, the listing I bought them off on ebay has long since ended and I never went through with the purchase in the end so can't say for certain.
60% of the time it works everytime...

threepot

Quote from: Call the midlife! on December  7, 2022, 16:01Might even have been 470 that I looked at, the listing I bought them off on ebay has long since ended and I never went through with the purchase in the end so can't say for certain.

Like these maybe... 470cc Bosch 0280156280
https://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/Bosch-VXR-Injectors-Z20LEH-55556799

On the whole Bosch stuff tends to be cheaper than Denso sensors etc.

jvanzyl

Hi all- thanks very much for the lively and good input! I'm going to opt for some Siemens deka second hand and see goes I get on. I do appreciate everyone's help!
01 Silver 1ZZ<br />The Smile Machine: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=59837