Engine blew - now the cat. has failed

[Anonymous]

Can anyone please give me some advice?

My first post was in the early part of the year when my year 2k mr2 with 30k suffered engine failure - it seemed at the time that it went in a similar way to many others.  Toyota didn't want to know and so I had a reconditioned engine with about 18k put in it.  It all seemed fine at first but then the engine warning light came on and so back it went to the garage.  This actually happened four times - the garage said the warning light had nothing to do with the new engine but it was because the electrics had been disconnected and so needed fine tuning.  He also blamed it on the fact that conditions were damp and the car wasn't being driven enough.  Although I treated this with some scepticism I had no choice but to believe what he said.   I'm unfortunately not very mechanically minded.

After it's last trip to the garage we started to notice the performance getting increasingly worse and at first thought the old problem was back.  However, the symptoms were different - no engine noise or increased oil consumption.  The performance got so bad that I wouldn't drive it for fear of doing it damage.  We asked the guy who put the new engine in to take a look - his opinion was that the exhaust was blocked and gases were building up.  And so back to the garage it went - a different place this time - who gave me the great news that the catalytic converter had gone.

After having already spent the best part of £2k on an engine I simply couldn't afford another £700+ on a new cat (the quote for the cat itself was £660) but I needed to get the car moving as I have moved house.  So Mr mechanic said the cat could be bypassed.  He said the car would apparently drive ok, maybe a bit noisy but it would be a temporary measure to get it back on the road as it would fail the next MOT.   So we went for this.  

Now we have the car back and again I'm too afraid to drive it.  Black smoke pours out of the exhaust (so much so that cars behind back off) and it pops and back-fires.  We've moved house and the car is still at the old place because I don't trust driving it 10 miles let alone 80.  Yet again, the garage had fobbed us off - this time it's because it needs a service - something I would have thought the first garage would have done when they replaced the engine and it's hardly been driven since.

So, I'm looking for some help.  Could the cat failing be connected to the replacement engine?  Is it safe (for the car) to drive it when the cat is bypassed?  And could it cause the smoke and back-firing?  Are the garages being honest or feeding me a load of rubbish?  Does anyone want to buy an MR2?  No seriously, I don't know where to go next.  I know you guys are very knowledgeable about MR2 mechanics (engines that is... not garage mechanics) so if anyone can let me know what they think I'd be very, very grateful because my car has now been pretty much off the road for 8 months.   And I'm desperate to get it back on.  I find it hard to believe that a car of this age can have two catastrophic mechanical failures - I feel I need some informed ammo that I can either fire at Toyota or the garages who have worked on it since.  

Sorry it's such a long post - it's a long story.  Please, can anyone help?

[aaronjb]

If the CAT (and preCATs) weren't replaced when the first new engine was put in then it's highly likely that they are both dead - and may well have taken your new engine with them  s:( s:(

There's no way to 'bypass' a CAT, by the way - aside from disconnecting the exhaust prior to the CAT or removing it and replacing with a section of straight exhaust (I presume the mechanic has done one or the other).

Black is usually over fuelling, so it could be an O2 sensor problem or a MAF problem - although to produce that much smoke is difficult with fuel alone, so I'm guessing it's eating oil as well?

Whereabouts are you - probably the best thing is if one of us can get to look at the car for you..

[markiii]

when your first engien failed (assuming pre-cats were involved)

the main cat would very likely have become blocked.

so 1st question is, is the main cat that apparently failed your original? or a replacement done at teh time of teh first engine?

secondly what was done if anything to your precats?

[darrenjuggins]

Hi Penny,

First of all, I'm sorry to hear you have had so many problems with such a great car.

That aside - it seems that unfortunately with your engine going originally, oil consumption, etc, that it has taken it's toll on your pre cat and main cat. OIL + CAT = DEAD CAT !

It seems that in replacing your engine, you have solved one problem, but the secondary problem of CATS loaded with oil have not !

If your new engine is indeed fine, then you really do need to get a replacement cat, now you may be able to get hold of a third part cat - I notice a little fella on Shaun's at Elvington, which will still cost, but hopefully is cheaper than stock and I assume not really difficult to get fitted.

Now to the smoke - depending on what the garage has done for you, you may find he's removed the Main cat and not the precats, thus the smoke could be caused by the exhaust gasses pushing out the residue of the oil in the precats.

To me it sounds like your only (sorry) a CAT away from getting it solved.  Try taking it to one of the places used by forum members for good, strong advice and sound service - I think Ekona was promoting a independant specialist just the other day.

I know it's all money and a bummer, but get it sorted properly now and you should have a bloody good car back again - you have just had some bad luck and poor advice previously from the garages that have performed the work for you.

As for the CEL Errrors - the garage before clearing them should have been able to pin point the problem before resetting - unfortunately the easy was round is not checking the numbers and disconnecting the battery for 30mins! (I'm not saying they would but.......)

I really do hope you get it sorted - I've been through the same, but I was fortunate enough to be able to use my extended warranty for the full replacement of engine (Short block and parts) and Pre cat (Manifold) and Main Cat..... i would not have wanted to fund it all myself, so I can sympathy with you.

Cheers

Darren J

[Anonymous]

Wow! Thanks for your fast replies guys.  You're not all bad, are you?   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Ok.  When the engine went I asked him to check out the pre-cats (after what I had read on this forum) and he said they looked ok.

I have no idea what failed the original engine.  I don't know whether they checked the cat.  They said the failure was down to lack of oil.

I also don't know whether the cat were replaced at the time of the first engine.  Don't know very much do I?   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

He has, as far as I know, replaced the cat with a length of exhaust.

Maybe the smoke isn't that black - although I was felt really embarrassed when I was driving it.  Sort of like an old car, but even worse when changing gear and also some (noticeably dark smoke) when ticking over.

I'm just outside Birmingham, the car's in Oxford!

[darrenjuggins]

Hi Penny,

An explaination of why the engines go - it's a problem on the MR2 and Avensis 1.8 engines - it seems that for some reason the pistions in the engine, when moving up and down are wearing the bores oval. (They are meant to be round).

As the wear oval, only fractionally, this causes oil to leak over the rings on the pistons holding it in the bore.... over time this get worse - the engine can only burn so much oil and the only place it can go is out the exhaust (which passes through both the pre cat and main cat), think of them as filters, thus the oil gets trapped in them (Bad) and they fall to bits.  

The pre cat then fall into the main cat and blocks the manifold pipes (early part of the exhust system), you loose power and feel lots of pressure behind you and the car performs like poop !

Other people have had other problems, but this is the main cause of failure to date, but try and get toyota to openly admit it and you won't suceed unfortunately.

You may now see, why it was so important the cat and pre cat where replace at the time of the engine faluire, as it will have had over 4 litre of oil go through it, which it's not designed for.

hope this helps and sorry for the long replies.

Cheers

Darren J

[aaronjb]

I'm not a million miles away from Oxford - and I don't mind coming up to have a look over it at the weekend if you like.

Unfortunately, I haven't got a gizmo to pull the error codes with if you have a CEL on, I think the nearest person to you with one of those is probably Sean, unless anyone else has one that I don't know about..

[roger]

Penny, sorry to hear your tale of whoes. What I am hearing from the other guys does sound reasonable, it is probably a cat problem.

My only thought on the CEL light, is that when your main cat was being bypassed could the O2 sensors have been affected.  I appreciate you don't have your car at present, but if you do have somebody look at it, they could perhaps make a check to see if they are fully in and properly wired.

Whilst I am close to Oxford I am afraid my mechanicing is not really upto this, being quite low on the learning curve. If Phil, Simon or Jono feel they have the experience, they might volunteer to save Aaron a trip   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Could I also ask if you used Oxford garages? If so, which ones? All adds to the database of incompetance.

Thanks, and best of luck.

Roger

[SimonC_Here]

I can offer  moral support but my technical expertiese stops at hitting the precats with a large hammer.   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

I could check your O2 sensors are in but that's about it.


Phil, Jono?


Simon

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much for your replies.  I appreciate you taking the time out to let me know what you think.

So it does look like the cat has gone then - & the theory about the smoke seems right:  it does seem to improve a bit if you up the revs and it certainly smells oil-like.

But I so need to get the car up to Birmingham to get it fixed - I'll be facing a nightmare journey into work soon otherwise.  I know you can't say for sure but do you think it would be ok to drive it up here?

[markiii]

should be as long as it is only oil in teh cat it's burning.

if you do drive it make sure you stop regurlalry and check the oil level.

secondly when tehy are fixing it make sure they gut the precats, if they haven't already.

[Liz]

Sorry to hear of your problems Penny, are you a member of the AA with recovery, they would piggy back you there?

[heathstimpson]

Sorry to hear of your problems Penny, are you a member of the AA with recovery, they would piggy back you there?

s:shock: :shock: s:shock:    s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  Literally  s:?: :?: s:?:

[Anonymous]

Penny, while I sympathize with your automotive plight and send you my best wishes for a quick and successful resolution to it, I'm also going to add a small warning. To whit, the Spyder is a sportscar. Although it's a Toyota, it's still a sportscar. You bought a tonne of performance and a lot more fun than anyone in this life has a right to expect, but it comes at a cost.

You have two choices here - trust or control. If you go the trusting route, you're at the mercy of every mechanic's machinations and service manager's mendacity. It would be nice, in a perfect world, to drop the car off at the shop and pick it up a bit later, and just let them sort it all out.

The control road means taking some responsibility for the maintenance and upkeep - doing as much of it yourself as possible. You can't there overnight, but bit by bit you can acquire the tricks and knowledge you need. Why this lecture? Because everything you're asking about here has been discussed thoroughly and explored years ago here and on Spyderchat. From the moment you discovered you were having engine problems, everything you needed to know in order to effect a successful repair was available.

But it's a lot of research and reading. So roll up your sleeves, pour yourself a strong one, and spend a week or so exploring every posting on these sites pertaining to the word "precat" and "engine" until you gain a feeling of control and confidence. OK? You'll sleep better and the car will love you for it.

[Anonymous]

Well I have my car back.  I managed to get it recovered through my insurance.  It's still not going anywhere though. Although at least now it's stting outside rather than a hundred miles away.

So I have a couple of questions.  Is there anywhere on this site a list of reputable (preferably non-Totoya) garages were I can take it and hopefully have someone who is familiar with the 2's problems to have a look at it? If not, can anyone recommend one?  In the Birmingham area..

Secondly, I'm confused over the cat going because of it being clogged with oil.  Shortly after having the engine replaced the car was MOT'd.  Surely if there was oil in the cat or pre-cat it would have failed the emissions?  And I did ask the guy who replaced the engine to check the pre-cats and he said they looked fine.  


Finally, I'm interested in Southern Editors definition of a sports car.  In my experience, albeit limited, a sports car is a car with some modifications, for example, engine location, wheels, suspension etc.  The engine follows the same principle as every other combustion engine, sports car or not.  The only thing that makes the 2 different is that it arguably has design faults that require a specialist knowledge.  

And yes I trust garages to a certain extent.  I don't just take the car in and believe every word they say - I am in fact a traders nightmare because I examine detail and ask a lot of questions.  But other than stripping the car down and fixing it myself (for which I have none of the expertise, space or tools) what else do I do?  And believe me, I spent a LOT of time researching on this site after the engine went, that's how I knew to ask the garage about the pre-cats.  But I didn't come across any article that said to replace the cats along with the engine.   Maybe I just didn't read that one.

As usual, any help or advice will be very welcome.

[darrenjuggins]

Hi Penny,

Your not having much look.

My cat became blocked before the engine failure, they replaced this some 1,000 miles before the engine. I had a huge amount of pressure one day and it wouldn't rev above 3,000 rpm, nearly crashed trying to over take a car!

They replaced the cat and then, I started loosing oil, the chicken and egg senario over, did the engine or the pre-cats fail!

Never the less, the full replacement package required to make it all sweet again, is short block, gubbin's inside engine, pre-cats (if ya want them) and the main cat.

Toyota definately have a "List" of all the replacement parts necessary for the repair to work sucessfully.

Apart from a rebuild, which unless you have a warranty, will be expensive, I'd see if Adam can source you a second hand engine, with pre-cats and Main Cat intact.

I think the bill for mine was in the region of about £6,500 to the warranty company / Toyota for all the parts, fitting, etc - I know people have had it done cheaper, I'm just refering to the bill my toyota dealership put in.

Good luck with getting things sorted.

Cheers

Darren J

[Anonymous]

Glad you're making progress Penny. You aren't the first driver to get the "full monty," as it were.

Regarding your query, let me clarify my remarks. Cars like the Spyder (two-seater sportscar) tend to share a number of attributes. Low weight, precise handling, performance engine. Unlike normal passenger cars, these vehicles have to pack all the components of a regular vehicle into a very small space. Unlike normal passenger cars, with a few exceptions these tend to be produced in small numbers.

So they tend to have more quirks and special maintenance requirements. For example, you have drains and valves located behind the side air scoops that need to be cleaned periodically. Minor variations in air pressure and tire alignment that wouldn't affect a regular car are potentially catastrophic on the Spyder. Preventive maintenance and regular inspection of the car's critical systems should be a habit for any vehicle owner, but these things are just a bit more important with a roadster.

Because these are Toyotas, they have fewer headaches than Fiats and MGs and Triumphs, but they aren't bulletproof and do seem to require more care than, say, a Camry or Corolla. The more work you can do yourself the better, and almost every issue involving owner care is covered in detail here, at spyderchat.com and at spydermagazine.com. Good luck and hope you're up and running at 100 percent soon.

[Jap GT300]

If you find a reputable garage locally then I can help source a complete engine with both manifold and cat.  This will be the ideal complete drop in replacement.

[dimwit]

Is there anywhere on this site a list of reputable (preferably non-Totoya) garages were I can take it and hopefully have someone who is familiar with the 2's problems to have a look at it? If not, can anyone recommend one?  In the Birmingham area.

Penny, try "rogue" they seen well up on the mk3 roadster, i have not used them, but they seem very helpful..There based between Balsall common & Kenilworth...

Rogue Systems Limited
01676 530222

 e mailto:patrick@roguesystems.co.uk">patrick@roguesystems.co.uk e

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all your replies.  Very helpful.

I'm going to try Rogue Systems as I'm in Meriden which is near Balsall Common.  I'm just praying they don't give me a bill of £6,500k.  With the 2k I've already spent the car isn't worth much more than that!!!

Thanks for the offer of the drop-in replacement Jap, I'll let you know if it's needed.

Wish me luck & I'll post the outcome.  Again, thanks loads to everyone for taking the time out to reply.

[markiii]

I should imagine Patrick will be no where near £6500, his MK2 Turbo conversions are only around half of that, and that is considerably more work than you need.

he may even have a spare engine as he's just converted a roadster to MK2 Turbo power.


If you do end up having a new engine I may be interested in taking the old one of your hands. Just thought I'd ask before you dispose of it.

[steve b]

Although it's a Toyota, it's still a sportscar. You bought a tonne of performance ....., but it comes at a cost.

, everything you needed to know in order to effect a successful repair was available.

  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

can't believe my ears, although a toyota, still a sports car, tonne of performance,.. comes at cost   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

Jesus, I came on here to do a bit of research as I had been planning to change my 13 year old modified MR2 turbo for a turbo'd mk3... and people are saying stuff like the above   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  load of bull!  Can't believe people have been accepting this from Toyota.  Its a toyota thats precisely why it should not have engine probs at least untill  100,000 + miles.  Toyota sells its cars on "reliability".. performance, let face it untill you bolt a turbo kit on a mk3 it's performance is hardly exciting, add a turbo then its a rocket.

Second part about all the answers being out-there,   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  only a fraction of people will join an ownersclub, they shouldn't be expected to have to trawl for info on preventing their engine failing at such low mileages, the dealer should sort it no problems.  I've grown up with Toyotas, parents had  st162, St182, and st200 celicas & V6GX Camry & a 2.2 camry.  I've had a AW11 MR2, SW20 N/A MR2 and the current SW20 Turbo, all were issue free, and i mean totally untill hefty 120,000+ miles, the MR2's all suffering lots of abuse.  The n/a AW11 got sold with 135,000 miles going strong, sw20 cracked its block at 120,000 mile on a trackday and the turbo just cracked a ringland but It was regularly used on track and producing 30% more power than stock.

Sorry for the rant, I just can't believe Toyota and that owners are obviously putting up with it.

Anyway learnt it may be worth waiting untill the engine problems totally figured out,  before I go for the mk3  s:) s:)

[aaronjb]

Anyway learnt it may be worth waiting untill the engine problems totally figured out,  before I go for the mk3  s:) s:)

Then I suspect you'll never buy one, since the model is being discontinued (there will be no MR2 at all, as far as we can tell at this time), and nobody other than Toyota is going to spend the kind of money required to find out what the 'real' problem is.

[steve b]

Anyway learnt it may be worth waiting untill the engine problems totally figured out,  before I go for the mk3  s:) s:)

Then I suspect you'll never buy one, since the model is being discontinued (there will be no MR2 at all, as far as we can tell at this time), and nobody other than Toyota is going to spend the kind of money required to find out what the 'real' problem is.

Will the engine be in use in other models though?

[Tem]

Anyway learnt it may be worth waiting untill the engine problems totally figured out,  before I go for the mk3  s:) s:)

Then I suspect you'll never buy one, since the model is being discontinued (there will be no MR2 at all, as far as we can tell at this time), and nobody other than Toyota is going to spend the kind of money required to find out what the 'real' problem is.

Will the engine be in use in other models though?

It will and it is. Most don't have this issue though, it's not the engine itself. If it was, I'm sure Toyota would've actually done something about it.