C2 Install & Pictures: 85,000 miles on

[Tem]

Reaching 800º degrees is pretty easy...  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

I got some 950C when I was N/A...I assume turbo would easily break into +1000C without WI.

[Two's Company]

Good to you again today Ste.  Cheers for the drive as well, I need to start saving now so that you have another project to complete next summer!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

The car flies in the lower gears but I'm most impressed with the acceleration at motorway speeds, whereas my N/A gradually builds speed in 6th gear the turbo accelerates in 5th like mine does in 2nd.  

Cruising at 80ish floor it and it's at license losing speed instantly (obviously this is what Ste told me happened when he went out on private roads   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  )

Next purchase to finish it off...

 m http://www.naonline.co.uk/gps/new-road-angel.php m

[aaronjb]

I got some 950C when I was N/A...I assume turbo would easily break into +1000C without WI.

I'd have expected temps about the same as NA, maybe less (certainly I'd expect 1000C to be piston-melting temps) since turbo tunes are generally quite a large chunk richer than NA tunes.

Could be wrong, but going on temps I've seen on other cars, 1000C would be somewhat alarming..

Do you not have the EGT plumbed in now you're turbo, Tem?

[Tem]

Do you not have the EGT plumbed in now you're turbo, Tem?

I do, but I never logged the values and I don't recall them good enough to say out loud  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  I only remember I had the alarm at 900C at first (that's where the "redline" start in GReddy), but it jumps above that the second I floor it  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Also, I never really pushed the car for a long period of time in circumstances where it would get highest temps...

[aaronjb]

I do, but I never logged the values and I don't recall them good enough to say out loud  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  I only remember I had the alarm at 900C at first (that's where the "redline" start in GReddy), but it jumps above that the second I floor it  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Interesting - I must admit, that's a lot higher than I'd have expected..

I'm almost tempted to steal one of the EGTs out of the Nissan now just to see what mine hits while NA..  s:) s:)

[Tem]

Interesting - I must admit, that's a lot higher than I'd have expected..

Likewise  s:? :? s:?

Got me worried enough to search for some numbers and here's what I got:
Most modern engines should be fine with a little over 1000C
Generally early 90's turbos can handle 1100C
Nowadays most can handle +1200C and the best +1300C

Personally I use the EGT to watch for any rise in it, not the actual numbers...

[aaronjb]

Personally I use the EGT to watch for any rise in it, not the actual numbers...

The best plan, naturally..

But still - those numbers are higher than I'd have thought.. Especially the figures for 90's turbos - if you were to ask folks on the IMOC boards if a Mk2 would survive with those EGTs I suspect they'd say you were crazy. Still - all engines are different (and ours are far more modern - and radically different - from cast iron lumps like the 3S-GTE, admittedly)

[Tem]

But still - those numbers are higher than I'd have thought.. Especially the figures for 90's turbos

I just meant the 90's turbochargers itself, not necessarily the whole engine. So you might burn a valve long before reaching the limit of the turbocharger for example.

if you were to ask folks on the IMOC boards if a Mk2 would survive with those EGTs I suspect they'd say you were crazy. Still - all engines are different (and ours are far more modern - and radically different - from cast iron lumps like the 3S-GTE, admittedly)

Yeah, seems many old timers say that some 800-850C is the absolute max before your engine dies, while guys familiar with modern engines don't seem to mind +1000C. I guess there has been some development  s8) s8)

[aaronjb]

Yeah, seems many old timers say that some 800-850C is the absolute max before your engine dies, while guys familiar with modern engines don't seem to mind +1000C. I guess there has been some development  s8) s8)

Yeah - lots really, when you consider the technology on some of the older engines (take the VG30DETT, say, which had sodium filled valves, pistons good for 500bhp etc) - we don't even have sodium filled valves (to my knowledge anyway, or do we?)

Maybe it's something to do with open-deck engine design vs. closed-deck cast iron blocks. I feel a google-session coming on  s:) s:)

[rmowbray]

spit

I've been following your progress with interest, very tempted by the c2 kit myself   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

How's it going?

[aaronjb]

Yeah, seems many old timers say that some 800-850C is the absolute max before your engine dies, while guys familiar with modern engines don't seem to mind +1000C. I guess there has been some development  s8) s8)

Coming back to this again - I was thinking the other night.. I wonder if we see such high cylinder temperatures because we're turbocharging a high compression motor?

Most of those 90's turbo applications were running 8.5-9:1 compression, whereas we're what.. 11:1?

[Tem]

Coming back to this again - I was thinking the other night.. I wonder if we see such high cylinder temperatures because we're turbocharging a high compression motor?

Most of those 90's turbo applications were running 8.5-9:1 compression, whereas we're what.. 11:1?

1ZZ is 10:1

I'm not sure how much that affects it. But then again, the older N/A engines have also been around the 10:1..

[aaronjb]

But then again, the older N/A engines have also been around the 10:1..

True - I never saw anyone measure EGTs on a 90's style NA engine, though, so that gives us no basis to compare.

Still, it was a thought  s:) s:)

[spit]

spit

I've been following your progress with interest, very tempted by the c2 kit myself   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

How's it going?

Going great matey  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  Pootles like a pussycat and pulls like a train. If you fancy a spin, PM me. I'm in Woz quite often.

2000 miles post-conversion now and nothing has dropped off or exploded  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  (except for the small breather filter which parted company on the M56 due to failure of my Heath Robinson attachment method  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  ). If anyone is considering this, do it....its such a laugh.

I've been a little too busy to do all the finish-up jobs (wideband analogue feed, gauge tidy-up, crankvents, bigger injectors, ignition harness etc) and the Christmas list already has some other imperatives (eg security system  s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ). A bit of bracing probably wouldn't go amiss either.

The engine finish-ups will be done in the next month or so - turns out that HyperSports are shipping a 4W Dyno in from Sud Afrique as we speak, so I'll probably go to them for map tweaking.

I'm still on stock clutch. Thought it was starting to give up last week, but turns out it was just insane wheel-spin on slimey roads  s:? :? s:?  65k miles and counting....

...."various things temperature-wise"....

A few observations Gents. Since correcting the C/L stumble, my temps have come right down. Granted, I'm measuring immediately post-turbo rather than at the manifold, so you might want to up my numbers a bit....

Pootling at Stoich, I'm hitting about 450-500C, rising to 600-650C at motorway speeds. Under boost, I haven't yet passed 750C, but then the car isn't getting hammered for long periods.

I read an interesting research piece on AF ratio vs temp. It showed that the peak temp of the A/F ratio curve is at Stoich (600C). I always thought it peaked under lean conditions, but I suppose we have to consider the real-world application i.e. what heat is down to AF mix and what is down to the contribution of the mechanicals/compression/timing/cooling efficiency etc.

Must confess, I don't understand it....just keeping an eye on it. At least I don't get 900C in closed loop and impending piston melt now  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Tem]

Since correcting the C/L stumble

What's that?

I'm measuring immediately post-turbo rather than at the manifold, so you might want to up my numbers a bit....

I suppose the exact amount depends a lot from this and that, but I know that one car loses almost 200C across the turbo. So yes, it makes a big difference.

I read an interesting research piece on AF ratio vs temp. It showed that the peak temp of the A/F ratio curve is at Stoich (600C). I always thought it peaked under lean conditions, but I suppose we have to consider the real-world application i.e. what heat is down to AF mix and what is down to the contribution of the mechanicals/compression/timing/cooling efficiency etc.

Here's how I explained it to myself. At stoich mixture, you have the most mixture to burn and that's what makes the most energy (=temperature). If you go leaner, you're basically only burning part of the cylinder contents and the rest of the air just passes through. When you go richer, you can think that all the air gets burned, but you have some extra fuel. It takes energy to vaporize that fuel, which brings the temps down. Extra fuel is kinda like poor mans water injection.

In common talk stoich is considered lean under boost.

At least I don't get 900C in closed loop and impending piston melt now  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

If you have 750C after turbo, you just might  s;) s;)  Remember that even the temps measured from the manifold pre turbo have already cooled a lot from what you actually have in the cylinders...

[spit]

Since correcting the C/L stumble

What's that?

Closed loop stumble - one bank was riching up and one was leaning out due to mismatched O2s with different voltage profiles  s:? :? s:?

In common talk stoich is considered lean under boost.

I hadn't thought of it that way but yes, it makes sense.

At least I don't get 900C in closed loop and impending piston melt now  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

If you have 750C after turbo, you just might  s;) s;)  Remember that even the temps measured from the manifold pre turbo have already cooled a lot from what you actually have in the cylinders...

Eeek  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  .... thanks Tem  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

(BTW, the ceramic coating probably makes the differential between manifold and post-turbo less than it is on Spyni's car)

I'm in 11.5-12.5 territory under boost, but it'll be interesting to see how Hypersports approach the mapping and how it affects temps. Is there anything else I should consider?

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to let you know my respect to  the Mr2 made me buy one  s:) s:) . It also helps to improve the kit  s:) s:)

[philster_d]

Yay

[spynish]

Well,

I saw 900ºC when testing the car in Budapest and it's measured postturbo also, and no probs so far...  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  
So that's 1100-1200ºC at the engine  s:?: :?: s:?:

[Tem]

I saw 900ºC postturbo

Wow...did you still have the stock internals too?

So that's 1100-1200ºC at the engine  s:?: :?: s:?:

Could be...of course we're only guessing it  s:? :? s:?

[aaronjb]

Wow...did you still have the stock internals too?

For now he does..  s;) s;)   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

(only kidding Spynish!)

[Anonymous]

As we tested the stock 1zz for peak temperature 900 is ok. When it would get dangerous to hold it over that. Running at 850C is the best power but not suggested for street use.

[Tem]

As we tested the stock 1zz for peak temperature 900 is ok. When it would get dangerous to hold it over that. Running at 850C is the best power but not suggested for street use.

Was this the spynish car anf post turbo temps?

[Anonymous]

Well we had not much time to test Spynies car, but a lot on the celi. It is cool to have the mr now as we can test many things in long terms.
We also seen extreme temps at the very begining but we only saw one melted engine but that was w.o water ( becouse of a leaking water hose) on a german costumers car. Also keep in mind extreme Autobahn speeds  s;) s;) . There is no better place to try out the limits.

[spit]

10,000 mile shakedown........

I've gotta say that the C2 kit is awesome. Nothing has dropped off, broken, melted or exploded. The map - set up for stock injectors - has been solid as a rock and I've enjoyed trouncing everything for miles around whilst retaining a clean license and the "drives like a vicar" reputation  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  .... and scaring me Dad.

Anyone looking for a DIY turbo kit, I'd say this is pretty darn close to the best there is for the price. The upgraded version looks even better. Sadly, Lee is selling his on and won;t be joining the C2 ranks, but someone will get a bargain from the sale.

Anyway, bored with such awesome and predictable Hungarian reliability, this weekend I decided to screw it all up by trying my hand at installing the bigger injectors. Doh!   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

It started out OK. I prepared the clips with little extensions to give myself a fighting chance:


Lifted the rail and took out the old injectors....(top of the pic - and an interesting article about a fluffy dog on the newspaper if this is all too much for you!)


Installed new clips:


Panic! The new 'jectors have a wider groove for the O-ring, so they didn;t feel like they were seating properly in the rail. Fear of squizzing petrol everywhere set in. So out they came and reinstalled with double o-rings. Thankfully that seems to have worked:








Now the fun begins. My works laptop won't allow me to install software, so I had to go with my own laptop to trim the injector ratio:















So here I am in the middle of the night trying to get the "laptop" to talk to the Emanage. It won't. I've lost the drivers. I lug everything back to the house, wire it up, go online, download the drivers, uninstall, back to the garage, wire it up, fire it up, no communication.

4 piggin times! Neighbours thought I had a garage sale on  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Maths was never my strong point, but Gas's original map was based on the Celica (380s) and so the ratio set for stock 'jectors was >1 (1.360). So, I figure, bring it back to 1 and everything will be ticky-boo. No, still too rich. I recalculate based on notional size and flow numbers that have been lobbed around (another trip to the house with the PC to get online!) and have now got a ratio that matches the stockers performance-wise on AFR at WOT.

What I don't have is a stoich idle (now AFR12) or any power in the mid-throttle range - it stays stoich whereas before it came into the rich power band so much more readily.

Any ideas? Help. Have I stuffed up a perfectly decent car?!  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:


PS on a brighter note, Mark has been brilliant throughout the weekend with his usual calming influence and moral support - cheers mucka!

Oh, & I've finally cut down the gauge pod and mounted it on the flippy lid. It won't win any concourse prizes, but then it only cost 8 quid! (I'm saving these ideas up for a new "Gaffer tape and Tap washer" forum  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  )