C2 Install & Pictures: 85,000 miles on

[Tem]

now if you hadn't already disconnected the breather hose, what would happen is that under boost your crankcase would pressurise and force oil to piss out wherever the path of least resistance is.

We know we did it with Seans (thanks Jay for the s**t instructions)

If it's any comfort, he's not the only one  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Wether this is prefferable is up to you Sean, Dan, and I (I beelive Tem as well) have purchased Krankvents to solve this issue.

Yeah, I got them as well. Vacuum is a good thing in there.


I'm not sure if this helps or confuses people more, but here goes...

When the car is stock, the two PositiveCrankcaseVentilation pipes are used to create vacuum in the engine (not in the cylinders obviously) and get the fumes back to intake and cylinders instead of outdoors. The first is a good thing, it'll make your piston rings seal better and for example possible leaks in the oilpan seal only cause air to enter the engine, instead of oil blowing out. The latter is for emissions only and will get sh...poop in your intake in the long run.

Still stock...the vent makes the air flow out of the engine from the exhaust side and in from the inlet side. Blocking the inlet hose and putting a filter in the engine will keep the crankcase off boost, but also off vacuum. It'll work, but it could be better.

The other is similar. You can just block it and it'll work. But it would be best to create some vacuum in there. That's of course impossible when you have boost in the intake...without some additional stuff that is. Some use an electrical vacuum pump, some use these as mark mentioned:
 m http://www.et-performance.com/automotive.html m

I'm sure there are more options out there.


So yes, the easy answer is that you can just install a filter in the inlet side and block the exhaust side. You won't have vacuum in there, but you won't have boost either. It'll work, but it could be better.

Whatever you do, don't block both, cause you'll again build boost in the engine (some always escape from the cylinders through the piston seals).


(sorry for repeating some stuff...had already written it while mark posted the previous  s8) s8) )

[Anonymous]

[spit]

Thanks for your posts, guys. Much appreciated.

Spynish & I have had a good chat with Gas tonight to clarify the C2 arrangement. It basically ties in with your description Tem, with the crankcase isolated from intake/TB boost.

Where the breather and PCV hoses would normally clamp to the TB (one either side of the throttle plate) are where the C2 taps for actuator and BOV references. Crankcase breather is then put on a filter and PCV is open to air.

I'll check out the Krankvents too, Mark - cheers.

Tune in tomorrow for EManage  s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:  

Ste

[Anonymous]

Yo Ste,

Hows it going mate?  'Tis all looking good from this end. I know its daft but i was thinking about the cooler scoop, you might be able to get a grill for it from M&P as some of the bike stuff might fit. Dunno if its worth a shot?

Later mate


Tim

[spit]

Yo Ste,

Hows it going mate?  'Tis all looking good from this end. I know its daft but i was thinking about the cooler scoop, you might be able to get a grill for it from M&P as some of the bike stuff might fit. Dunno if its worth a shot?

Later mate

Tim

Hey Tim - nice of you to drop in  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  & hugs to Trace and the family.

Stu's grill suggestion is a good 'un. DTweeks had some nice stuff in but it cost more than the kit  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  ! I'll have another hunt at the weekend...

.....although, isn't there a bit of grill on the front of your bike that'd fit nicely?!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  Friend in need and all that  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Go well bud,
Ste

[spit]

Final stages now - lots of niggly little jobs to do at the weekend.

First up, a picture for reference of the PCV return and breather points either side of the throttle plate:


Rather than muck about with the wiring harnesses, I've put a grommet in for the wideband.....to be sealed with a blob of silicone....still waiting for those other gauges from the US though ..... will they ever arrive  s:? :? s:?  

Gotta mount this somewhere relatively cool:


OK. EManage time.


Cheers to all of you who rallied to my PMs over the weekend. The wiring is a lot less scary than it originally seemed. Still a few questions.....at the end.....but first some general comments about the C2 EManage.

I can foresee a struggle here - at the moment we're unable to get the Greddy software cable - Gas has had some on order for a while & I've had no joy directly with the "clone cable" guy in the USA, so its stock injectors for now and an early map  s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  Gas, Alberto & I are currently trying to work this out between us for our mutual benefit. If anyone out there in ROC-land can help, please let me know.

News that might shock some of you   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  The C2 kits don't use the ignition harness. Gas is content that the stock ECU/knock sensor allows for enough control at our boost level to avoid detonation. I've queried the fact that Alberto seems to be running a little rich (is this to compensate?), and both he and I are considering getting the harness so that I can get some higher-boost maps done at Thor for us to share (my base level is apparently set close to 6psi).

Given the setup problems yet to come re. cable/bigger injectors/software etc., I'm just going to press on for now and take stock once the car is running (will the day ever come  s:? :? s:?  ), but I'd value your thoughts on the harness vs no harness approach at 6psi.

OK. 3 questions:

1. I've had conflicting PMs about the 12v power source on the ECU - is it E2 pin 8 or E2 pin 16? or is either one OK?

2. Does anyone have the 4 ECU pin idents for heater+/heater ground and signal/signal ground for the O2 sensor (preferably bank 1 but both if you have 'em) I could probably figure this out with the meter but its not easy single-handed.

3. The Innovate doesn't tap the ECU for its O2 heater & ground. So, do I go with the 15 ohm resistor trick to avoid heater circuit CELs?

Thanks in advance,
Ste

[Tem]

I wouldn't use the stock setup to control knock. I recall reading that if it detects knock, it will back off a LOT and come back very slowly. If that's the case, you'll lose a lot of power with that. And in the long run it'll always knock a little before it fixes it, which can't be good.

Note that it's just something I've read and I'm not sure if it's true...

1. I've had conflicting PMs about the 12v power source on the ECU - is it E2 pin 8 or E2 pin 16? or is either one OK?

2. Does anyone have the 4 ECU pin idents for heater+/heater ground and signal/signal ground for the O2 sensor (preferably bank 1 but both if you have 'em) I could probably figure this out with the meter but its not easy single-handed.

3. The Innovate doesn't tap the ECU for its O2 heater & ground. So, do I go with the 15 ohm resistor trick to avoid heater circuit CELs?

1. E2/8 is from ignition switch and E2/16 gets 12V when the EFI MAIN RELAY is on. I'd use E2/8 if you want 12V when you turn the switch on, but both are probably ok.
(and E2/1 if you want constant 12V from battery)

2. pin1 black/yellow is heater from ecu, pin2 black/red is 12V through EFI MAIN RELAY, pin3 black is signal to ecu, pin4 brown is ground. Banks2&3 are same, except the pin1 has blue/black and black/white wires.
(pin1 is probably heater ground and pin2 heater power, please measure it to be sure  s8) s8) )

3. Yeah, if you take the stock o2 sensors out, you need heater resistors to keep the ecu happy.

[Anonymous]

I also used E2/8 for switched 12v

Here where my WB contrller is. Innovatemotorsports intended these to be installed between the frame rails exposed to the elements so I thnk they're pretty tough.

I agree with TEM on the IGN harness - you will want it. Its probably not quite as critical if the MAF is after the I/C because the ECU will see true temperature and adjust timing accordingly (Iknow its a different question..). The knock sensor is supposed to be pretty good but the firmware was not designed with boost in mind. I would not be too concerned at 6psi. If/when you do add the harness the JP2 jumper inside the emanage has to be changed so:
JP2-----1-to-2 is default make it connect pins 2 & 3 with the IGN harness.

Greddy cables and groups
Greddy E-manage:  m http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/EmanageFAQ.txt m
 m http://drizze99.conforums3.com/index.cgi?action=login2 m  - You can get everything from here
 m http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/ m


If you end up with a USB-USB "Simon" clone cable you'll need the driver.
 m http://3w.car-hacker.com/pub/usb_driver.zip m  - Works fine on win98 USBV1.00

Gilligan clone cable
 m http://www.geocities.com/gilligan_rocks/ m

[spit]

Great information guys. I feel more comfortable about the detonation issue now, particularly as it looks like there will be a hiatus between getting the car going and getting it going well......this is one of the reasons I opted for the LC-1/XD-1 combo. Ign harness looks inevitable though - I doubt Thor will want to tune without it.

Thanks for the heads-up on jumper settings, WTS. I'd already hijacked your brains by stealth at http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23940 but wasn't clear about the relationship between JP2 and with/without ign harness  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  The cable links are much appreciated too.

I'll update at the weekend. The only other discussion point I'd like to raise in the meantime is heatshields. Big ugly black shield is going back on (with or without its horizontal tray?) to avoid the Alberto meltdown syndrome  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

There are also options to fabricate isolators between IC in/out pipes and exhaust (and even exhaust and main engine bay). Also, boot lid drip tray - in or out?

Thoughts?

Ste

[markiii]

probably worth doing however I;d wait

reasons

1. you have all your pipes coated and don't yet know how effective that wil be

2. it's more to remove when troubleshooting, and there will be some initially

[spynish]

Hi Spit,

I don't know if the guy you have talk to is this:

 e mailto:johnshepley2002@yahoo.co.uk">johnshepley2002@yahoo.co.uk e

He makes USB cables, and is from the UK:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/message/11288

But it may be the one you know...  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Anonymous]

I'll update at the weekend. The only other discussion point I'd like to raise in the meantime is heatshields. Big ugly black shield is going back on (with or without its horizontal tray?) to avoid the Alberto meltdown syndrome  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  
There are also options to fabricate isolators between IC in/out pipes and exhaust (and even exhaust and main engine bay). Also, boot lid drip tray - in or out?

I realize the HASS and C2 have different configuration but I never put the OEM shields back on.
The cat should already have a heatshield around it. My CATCO did and it registers <200F(303C) when the output pipe on on the cat is over 500F(932C)
I would get the basic install finished and shaken down before addressing thermal management because there will be a bit of debugging and general fiddling.

My upper drip tray just went back in for the winter but I have insufficient  experience with it in place to suggest anything. Its been off for 3 years prior to turbo.

[spit]

Bit late reporting back to you this week - entered the twilight zone on Saturday and had a total non-weekend  s:cry: :cry: s:cry:

Anyhoo, Emanage is in. My soldering skills are dire but everything checks out fine and healthy. Been putting this off but it really wasn't as bad as expected thanks to sound guidance from the ROC crew.

Heads-up to anyone going down this route - don't follow the Greddy instructions - they are useless & will have you in knots.

So - from this.....

.....to this:


I stripped out the unused airflow wires from the harness, leaving just the essentials. Time to start the car.....

Brrrrm.....bog......brrm....splut....brrm....bog splut knock. A few permutations later - the same. I'm getting a very healthy vacuum on idle (-0.6 to -0.8bar?) - which just about holds its own after a minute or two, but no chance to blip the throttle without vicious bogging. No sign of leaks, no CELs, and everything ran beautifully pre-E-Manage.....but then this is all part of the challenge.

The prime suspect is a mapping prob - we're expecting to see Alberto's stock injector base map, but maybe its trimmed for the larger injectors or just completely AWOL. Ian has kindly offered a loan of his Greddy USB/serial cable so I have half a chance of seeing whats going on. Until then I'm blind  s8) s8)  and if it isn't the map, I'm also stuffed for ideas  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  Anybody?

More to do in the meantime though - I'm leaving stock O2s in place for now and gonna plumb the wideband separately until this is sorted.

And the elusive Greddy gauges have arrived - hoorah  s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:  .... but the instructions are in Japanese - anti-hoorah   s:( s:(  

.....Tem to the rescue   s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:  Cheers matey!

Did anyone see the hurdling machines on scrap. challenge this week? Thats how I feel at the mo  s:? :? s:?  ......& still thoroughly loving it  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Ste

[Anonymous]

Well, you certainly have the right attitude!

I stripped out the unused airflow wires from the harness, leaving just the essentials

Huh?, there arent any "unused" airflow wires and the engine's acting like it doesnt see a MAF signal at all. Its not the EM map (yet).
Is the MAF in backward?

Throttle Calibration - need the EM cable and a laptop.

Injector correction factor s/b .610 to .634 for the 380-420cc injectors.

[spit]

Well, you certainly have the right attitude!

I stripped out the unused airflow wires from the harness, leaving just the essentials

Huh?, there arent any "unused" airflow wires and the engine's acting like it doesnt see a MAF signal at all. Its not the EM map (yet).
Is the MAF in backward?

Throttle Calibration - need the EM cable and a laptop.

Injector correction factor s/b .610 to .634 for the 380-420cc injectors.

Just to qualify my statement about the airflow wires - the harness comes with wiring for different sensor types. I've wired EM pins 3&10 in series with purple wire (ECU E4 pin 11)  - Green to ECU side, White to Engine side. Stripped out the unused ones.

MAF is the same way round as before  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

Its a good idea to start the car after each Greddy harness is installed. This isolates the problem to either the main, ign or inj harnesses.

If you've done all three since the last startup you may have to disconnect each until the problem stops.
I suspect the
1. main harness
2. TPS calibration
3. vacuum leak.
4. MAF

You'll be able to eliminate 2 & 4 using the support tool.

[spit]

Jeez it was cold this weekend, but having thawed out I can give you an update.

The vroom-splut thing was down to no maps in EManage. Uploaded Spyni's map and got the vroom without the splut  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Most of the sub-zero garage time this weekend has been spent routing cables for the gauges, fabricating extension harnesses for those that just wouldn't reach (all of them!) and gingerly pootling around the icy streets of Manchester trying not to crash!.......

Everything in and loosely placed - stuff to move once I pluck up the courage to lose the stock O2s and get the wideband to emulate them:

Gauges in an upside-down pod pending fabrication of a custom mount:


.......& now I know how the turbo guys feel - even the slightest blip of the throttle and the kick is awesome. Me happy  s:P s:P  There are some pretty serious mapping (and meteorological!) issues to get right before I can happily put my foot down - seem to be running very lean at low revs which knocked the car into jerky misfires at stop-start crawling speed, threw a CEL and had me resetting the ECU just to get home on Sunday   s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  Get it past 2k revs and into the 12-14 AFR range & everything goes supersonic though  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

At idle and low throttle the AFR is dancing around trying to hit stochiometric (I guess), but never gets below the 15's & 16's. Airflow adjustment at low revs and up to 15% throttle position (the range that seems to be leaning out) is mapped to between -10% & -15%. My fuzzy logic is telling me that this is too much for the ECU to compensate for in closed loop.

So tonight's questions relate to the map......
Could this be my problem?
Should I back off the numbers in this part of the map and see what happens?
Why is it working for Spyni?

[Anonymous]

15 and 16 seem awfully lean to me. i LOVE that  gauge pod. would you mind giving somemore info and pics  s:P s:P    s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[aaronjb]

IIRC, received wisdom was to shoot for about 13-14:1 at the very low end and then 11-11.5:1 at the top end. Having said that, I'm no tuner  s:) s:)

Does Spyni have the same injectors as you? (i.e. are you running his Celica-injector map with your stock injectors in?)

[spit]

15 and 16 seem awfully lean to me. i LOVE that  gauge pod. would you mind giving somemore info and pics  s:P s:P    s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

Yes, lean is right - don't know why its working OK for Spyni  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  He isn't showing any of these low-rev lean misfire symptoms.

The pod is a "Fast and Furious". Designed for 52mm gauges so I reamed out holes 1 & 3 to take the Greddys. My first thought was to mount it on the flat of the cubby lid (where it looks neat) but I'm now thinking of fabricating a plate to nestle under the lid - sort of where they are now but tidy! Not certain yet - might revert to the "on-top" plan....its easier  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

The pod is slightly too wide to fit in the hole and slightly too deep to mount in front of it, so I just rotated the gauges 180 degrees and wedged it there for now.
I'll get some in-focus pics for you later  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

IIRC, received wisdom was to shoot for about 13-14:1 at the very low end and then 11-11.5:1 at the top end. Having said that, I'm no tuner  

Does Spyni have the same injectors as you? (i.e. are you running his Celica-injector map with your stock injectors in?)

I think you're right Aaron. Stoich is 14.7:1, max power is in the 12s IIRC. I've recalibrated the wideband a few times (and each follow-up check has it consistently reading 20.9% O2 in free air) so I'm pretty sure the feedback data is right.

Spyni and I are on the same map and both still on stocks, so I'm confused. Its a newer map that he and Gas leaned out a little cos he was getting a too-rich CEL, but those changes were in a higher rev range than I'm suffering with.

One thing that did confuse me was the injection correction factor in the EManage is >1   s:? :? s:?  (ie smaller than stock injectors) Then it occurred to me that Gas may have used a Celica map as his starting point and stepped it back in this way for the '2s stocks. Presumably I should just bring it back down to "1" when the Celica injectors go in.

The only material difference I can think of between our cars is that I'm J-Spec and Alberto is Euro, but my knowledge of the ECU differences isn't enough to understand if or why it would make a difference.....

[Tem]

Maybe you have different sized stock injectors or something?

I've traded some PFC maps with guys in US, UK and EU and the ones from US&UK make my car run bloody rich and my maps make them lean. Only maps within EU seem to work as they should, both ways.

Wasn't spynish from Spain (=EU) and you from UK...maybe that explains it?

[spit]

Maybe you have different sized stock injectors or something?

I've traded some PFC maps with guys in US, UK and EU and the ones from US&UK make my car run bloody rich and my maps make them lean. Only maps within EU seem to work as they should, both ways.

Wasn't spynish from Spain (=EU) and you from UK...maybe that explains it?

Interesting thought Tem, and certainly the signs are pointing towards some inherent difference between J-Spec (me) and EU (spynish). Aside, I wasn't aware that UK and EU were different though  s:? :? s:?  

If anything, I guess the J-Spec MR-S is more akin to US than EU. Bill has some maps that might prove useful, but I've looked at the US Hass maps and they're way different across the board (and have ignition correction in, which I don't....yet..... it'll be on prior to dyno tune  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  )

Until I get this sorted and up the revs, I won't know if its across the board or just some ECU peculiarity in the lower rev range...... or maybe my turbo is just spinning ridiculously freely and defying physics at idle  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Perhaps Ian or some of the other MR-S FI guys can throw some light on the anomaly?

Ste

[Tem]

Aside, I wasn't aware that UK and EU were different though  s:? :? s:?

Uh...now that you mentioned it, I'm not sure if it was or wasn't  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Either way, if your mixtures seem weird, you should have it tuned before you drive more.

[Two's Company]

Ste,

Glad to hear it has now moved under it's own steam!

I bet you're not looking forward to learning to drive 'turbo' in this weather!   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

I used my tuned map in Perry's car and i put my wideband in his to test.It gave the same readings as on mine. His was a UK car mine the JSpec, so there's no difference between these models.

I would simply save the maps you have on to your laptop and reset the emanage to zero values. The car should run fine as the ECU isn't being altered by the EM just don't put it in boost. If it doesn't then it's a wiring issue (or faulty EM), if it does then it's the mapping. When you know which it is you can load the map back in (if you want)