C2 Install & Pictures: 85,000 miles on

[spit]

Cheers for the input guys. I'm getting closer with it now. By-passing EM is OK but a bit lean at idle, but there's no doubt that quite a bit of air is getting shifted through at low revs - presumably a few iterations of the ECU in closed loop will get to grips with this? (although I really don't know what I'm talking about  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  )

Back on the map, I eased back some of the high -ves in the upper left quadrant of the airflow map just to see what happened - sure enough, warm idle and low revs came down to 14-15. Must try under load when the roads get gritted  s:? :? s:?  

And for you, Warmerthan.....back the right way up.......

Ignore the AFR of 43  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  It was after shutdown and hadn't reverted to %O2. Must get the software hooked up and edit the gauge features a little.
(By the way, I found a well-priced source for the wideband and gauge in the UK. PM me if you want details and I'll root them out).

[Anonymous]

representin Walmart.  I attend the business college founded by Sam Walton.

[kanujunkie]

representin Walmart.  I attend the business college founded by Sam Walton.

good for you

[spit]

I'm afraid you lost me there too Warmerthan.....

Returning to the plot:

Back on the map, I eased back some of the high -ves in the upper left quadrant of the airflow map just to see what happened - sure enough, warm idle and low revs came down to 14-15. Must try under load when the roads get gritted  s:? :? s:?

Pretty mild tonight so I've been for a run up and over to Macclesfield. I made a few stops, checks and restarts on the way and everything is rock solid. No CELs, no misfires, no problems. The AFR is much more stable now at pootle speeds and the car is just as easy to drive in traffic as it was before.....

.....then with a little blip on the throttle - woohoo warp speed   s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:  with the AFR safely nestled in the power band. And it sounds great (I used your infamous H&S noise test tunnels Rusty  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  )

If any of you are considering FI, you've gotta go for it! The '2 is such an excellent base car for the turbo treatment, and that first kick is like a smile on a stick  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

The C2 is a very nicely engineered piece of kit - challenging at times to install, but as a non-mechanic Noob thats probably a testament to my (in)competence. Most of my weekends were spent pondering, staring and drinking coffee. Solid build time was probably no more than a few days!

There's more to come. Bigger injectors and ignition harness will go in next, then its off to Thor (or somewhere) to get the whole lot mapped and dyno'd. But not just yet.....I have to find an excuse to go places  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Need milk? Hmmm, I'm sure there's an all-night Tesco in Oxford  s:P s:P

....and finally, something to please you all: for the first time since I started this thread.....no questions!!!

[markiii]

well done mate, glad to see shes all up and running

nice job  s:D s:D

[jonytom]

Well done buddy! Pretty impressive for a "non-mechanic Noob". Looking forward to seeing it sometime in the new year.

[Anonymous]

Have you been to here  m http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html m  to talk about tuning? They are right on your doorstep and definately tune and use emanage's in their custom jobs. Says on their site £45 an hour to tune.

[SimonC_Here]

Need milk? Hmmm, I'm sure there's an all-night Tesco in Oxford  s:P s:P

There is and it is just down the raod from me, so pop in if you need a coffee with your milk!

  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  


Simon

[spit]

Thanks people. I'll see you soon Simon  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Have you been to here  m http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html m  to talk about tuning? They are right on your doorstep and definately tune and use emanage's in their custom jobs. Says on their site £45 an hour to tune.

I tried them first Ian. They do have considerable experience with EManage, but don't have a rolling road dyno - which probably means they go whizzing up and down the M61. Don't particularly fancy that..... & their price for EManage mapping was about £275+VAT for a half-day IIRC (major hard drive crash - lost the quote  s:evil: :evil: s:evil:  )

Thor have been good to the Hass crew, and Peter has assured me the best possible tune, even though they may have a potential conflict of interest with their own FI kits!

[Anonymous]

Excellent work!  I can't wait for the dyno...

[Anonymous]

Thanks people. I'll see you soon Simon  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Have you been to here  m http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html m  to talk about tuning? They are right on your doorstep and definately tune and use emanage's in their custom jobs. Says on their site £45 an hour to tune.

I tried them first Ian. They do have considerable experience with EManage, but don't have a rolling road dyno - which probably means they go whizzing up and down the M61. Don't particularly fancy that..... & their price for EManage mapping was about £275+VAT for a half-day IIRC (major hard drive crash - lost the quote  s:evil: :evil: s:evil:  )

Thor have been good to the Hass crew, and Peter has assured me the best possible tune, even though they may have a potential conflict of interest with their own FI kits!

  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:    s:shock: :shock: s:shock:   When i first installed my kit all them years ago   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:   i contacted them and they said they were moving premises soon to incorporate a rolling road, can't believe they haven't sorted it then.

I don't doubt Thor's work at all, just a 2hour drive untuned, i thought would be somthing you wouldn't want.

Glad it's all running good now.  s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

Good effort - I seriously need to pop mover and have a look  s:P s:P  . You about this Saturday?

[spit]

.....just a 2hour drive untuned, i thought would be somthing you wouldn't want.

Well, this is why Hypersports was a preferred option, and a good call Ian, but they don't seem to have moved that side of their business along all that much  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

I'm pretty sure that the tune is safe enough to enjoy a drive to the Midlands now - AFR is constantly sensible and still no CELs. I'll be off-boost most of the way too, and will trundle down with a neutral ignition map and compensation ratio once the injectors are done.....hopefully in a few weeks.

Russ, I shouldn't be far away this weekend & wanna see those tyres of yours too. Will call you Sat. morning.

Ste

[Two's Company]

Ste,

Nice work mate, good to hear that the maps have sorted a few issues.

I'm away for the next couple of weekends, can I blag a ride in a couple of weeks?   s8) s8)  

Steve

[spit]

Ste,

Nice work mate, good to hear that the maps have sorted a few issues.

I'm away for the next couple of weekends, can I blag a ride in a couple of weeks?   s8) s8)  

Steve

No probs Steve.

I've just had a chat with the GM of Camcoat about a rolling road dyno nearer to home. He doesn't make recommendations unless he is happy that a firm are seriously decent, and he's come up with a local Company. I knew about them, but didn't know they had all the gear  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  Will post details later if it turns out to be a useful lead.....

[Anonymous]

Ste, good to see you on Saturday. Your installation looks great, nice and neat and well thought out. I've been pondering over the bogging problem and to keep with my keep it simple philosophy, here's my thoughts.

The bogging occurs around 2K, which could be where the ECU goes from closed to open loop mode. This is a bit of a guess but it would be interesting to try and test that this is the case by varying the amount of throttle you are giving the engine to see if this RPM varies at all as I understand that the engine goes open loop when a calculation is performed by the ECU on a certain number of parameters. Therefore it should be possible to change this by altering the degree of throttle input. Obvioulsy this isn't a conclusive test but it points us in the right direction.

If we are pretty sure that the bogging occurs when the ECU goes open loop then there's a few possibilities: The map may be wrong at that point, or there may be some issue with the MAF sensor or TPS sensor. See the link below:

http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7576&highlight=bov

I would start by checking the things outlined in the link as thay are the simplest and most obvious and could be fairly quickly and easily eliminated. I can't remember your breather pipe setup but could it be possible that oil has recirced back through the BOV and the intake system, dirtying these sensors?

Disclaimer (vitual flamesuit) - let me just state to everyone that I've never installed a turbo and my only real knowledge is a final year engine combustion module during my BEng Mech eng degree at Leeds Uni and the stuff I've picked up from here and Spyderchat. I'm by no means an expert on this stuff but I'm hoping that by applying a little logic we can solve the problem. If anyone has any other theories please muck in, the more brains working on it the better. Then again, should I be talking about brains in a turbo thread as a frontal lobotomy and the removal of ones fear glands must be a prerequesite for anyone who decides that they require acceleration akin to something powered by dilythium crystals  s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:  

Only joking guys - this site's a better place with the amount of turbo nutters we now have. I'm seriously tempted myself.

[markiii]

Jay Hass has commented taht the car runs better with out teh stock o2s but I'm not quite sure how you would connect that up

might be worth a a try.

[Anonymous]

Jay Hass has commented taht the car runs better with out the stock o2s but I'm not quite sure how you would connect that up
might be worth a a try.

s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  You dont want to try this with the emanage!Its not even possible.
Jay used the PFC and completly REMOVED THE STOCK ECU to do so.

[spit]

Jay Hass has commented taht the car runs better with out the stock o2s but I'm not quite sure how you would connect that up
might be worth a a try.

s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  You dont want to try this with the emanage!Its not even possible.
Jay used the PFC and completly REMOVED THE STOCK ECU to do so.

I had a read of Jay's thread on Spyderchat about this - he loves to experiment  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Update time..... a bit of minor surgery, and no more bogging !!!:bounce:

I'd been meaning to scrap the separate O2 signals for a single one....just never got round to it   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  (thanks to Chris @ Hypersports for a much-needed kick up the rump!) Now its done, the car runs in closed loop like a happy monster on his holidays!

It seems as though my O2s were switching voltage at slightly different AFRs.... but because they're side by side, the ECU was working overtime in closed loop to reconcile the mix of banks 1 and 2 with the O2 signals.

Alberto's O2s must be better-matched than mine  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  I don't think he's had any sign of this problem.

Dan, I know the Hass still keeps the essence of a 2-bank monitoring, but as it uses a log manifold it might be worth you trying the 2-into-1 signal fix to sort out your 2k hobble.

Ste

[Anonymous]

I think it's gotta be worth a try, glad you've got it sorted matey!  s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

Great news Ste, so it was actually the closed loop mode running that was causing the problem, mmm.... interesting. Your O2s are after the turbo aren't they? And they're both next to each other if I remember correctly? Just out of interest, where's the wideband O2 located? I don't know if it applies to a turbo installation but I'm sure I read somewhere that nearer the engine the better, hence the stock location. In any case it sounds like it's sorted but it'd be interesting to know what was happening and what the ideal setup would be.

[spit]

Great news Ste, so it was actually the closed loop mode running that was causing the problem, mmm.... interesting. ....... In any case it sounds like it's sorted but it'd be interesting to know what was happening and what the ideal setup would be.

Russ, yes, there was no problem with the EManage map or open-loop performance. It was a closed loop glitch.

In closed loop, the ECU is looking purely at the O2s, which are narrowband and switch voltage at stoich AFR. Mine must be mis-matched slightly (switching at different points), so a problem occured because each O2 was reading a combined mix from all 4 cylinders but the ECU was tuning two banks of cylinders independently  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

The result was ECU suicide..... the ECU was richening one bank while leaning out the other. The two were cancelling out at the sensors, so the ECU was reading that as a mandate to keep going, and spiralling towards the limits of its adjustment capabilities. Doh!

Or - theory 2 (because I got no CEL) is that the ECU was repeatedly flipping one bank rich/lean/rich etc and the other lean/rich/lean etc so that it couldn't settle to a smooth adjustment.

Seems so obvious now   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Ste

ps Wideband is currently slightly further along the DP as a temp measure, but will be moving up once I've removed the second stock O2.

[Anonymous]

Probably why i've never had this problem. The PE O2 placement is useless so i've only ever used 1 O2 from the start.

I've now got my WB as my only O2 sensor and use it's NB output into the main ECU. No other O2 sensor is used.

[Anonymous]

I was just looking at the Innovate site and they reckon that the Bosch wideband sensor with their controller is good for up to 800 degrees C. Although I did notice that they do a heatsink / extender in the accesories section for turbo or higher temp applications. It'd be interesting to find out what sort of temps are seen at the turbo manifold. Doesn't the Haas kit put the O2 sensors there anyway?

There a few possible reasons for 2 O2 sensors on the stock MR2: 1 - They wanted to mount them before the precats to get an accurate reading, and so used 2 because this means they have to be in seperate branches of the manifold. 2 - As stated by the guys at TTE, it's better to have the O2 sensors as near as possible to the engine block as this setup offers better engine control / throttle response. Or both of the above

I personally think that it's better to have the O2 sensors nearer the engine block as this is what most car makers seem to do.

[spynish]

I was just looking at the Innovate site and they reckon that the Bosch wideband sensor with their controller is good for up to 800 degrees C. Although I did notice that they do a heatsink / extender in the accesories section for turbo or higher temp applications. It'd be interesting to find out what sort of temps are seen at the turbo manifold. Doesn't the Haas kit put the O2 sensors there anyway?

There a few possible reasons for 2 O2 sensors on the stock MR2: 1 - They wanted to mount them before the precats to get an accurate reading, and so used 2 because this means they have to be in seperate branches of the manifold. 2 - As stated by the guys at TTE, it's better to have the O2 sensors as near as possible to the engine block as this setup offers better engine control / throttle response. Or both of the above

I personally think that it's better to have the O2 sensors nearer the engine block as this is what most car makers seem to do.

Reaching 800º degrees is pretty easy...  s:roll: :roll: s:roll: