Suspension upgrade for road use

Started by MVV, December 18, 2019, 23:24

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MVV

Did a search but didn't find what I want to know. So I will never drive on a track. I live in a super quiet bit of England with empty roads- E Cumbria. I've just put Yoko  AD08Rs on last summer and they have made the car a bit stiffer. What do folk suggest that will stop the roll without making my fillings drop out?

Gaz mr-s

Stiffer front anti-roll bar?   Or have your shocks done the mileage that you think they need replaced?

MVV

Thanks Gaz, which roll bar do I buy? And do you mean just replace the shocks before the MOT says so? I'm a bit thick technically.

shnazzle

If the suspension has never been replaced, there's your "issue".
Two factors;mileage and age. Your car won't be newer than 13 years. So unless it's low mileage and always been garaged, it's due replacement. 
Other cars manage ages on stock suspension but mr2s are a lot more sensitive to suspension.

From all accounts so far (including mine, but on coilovers), refreshing stock suspension seems to have the "it's like a new car" effect. And "best 800 ever spent" kind of thing.

Roll bar will just mask and paradoxically accentuate weaknesses in the rest of the suspension
...neutiquam erro.

MVV

That is really helpful. It is a December 05 car with about 45K on it so I guess it is all original. I'd prefer to keep it like that as I'm trying to renew the car but keep it original. Recently changed the front lights and had the body done.

Ardent

Suspension refresh and a quality geo after.

shnazzle

Quote from: MVV on December 19, 2019, 08:45That is really helpful. It is a December 05 car with about 45K on it so I guess it is all original. I'd prefer to keep it like that as I'm trying to renew the car but keep it original. Recently changed the front lights and had the body done.
45k is definitely not too bad. I bought mine at 45k and by about 55k I had a leaking strut, which is why I changed. But if yours looks in good state, then the stiffer tyres may well just be accentuating the natural "give".

First suggestion I would have is a center brace. Roll bars, in my humble opinion, change the dynamics too much. The center brace really solidifies the car, without any loss in comfort but make the car feel much more planted. "Matt's brace", "tte brace", Snelbaard on here does one, and Carolyn has developed a monster center brace recently

If the struts and springs look done, then a suspension refresh is definitely for you.

The defacto standard is KYB Excel-G shocks and springs can be anything from stock to H&R. All quite cheap (relatively) and not lowered. If the car is in good nick, you may not need new topmounts. So the whole thing may only set you back about 600 or so.
...neutiquam erro.

thetyrant

As others have said making sure everything you currently have is working correctly will be first thing, i found with my car it was all basically ok but still wasnt happy with floaty feeling, fitted Tein springs which helped a lot but showed up dampers were past best and while still functioning were struggling with a little extra spring rate, then fitted some Koni Sport dampers and now it rides and handles brilliantly :)

Im in Penrith cumbria if you ever want a ride in mine to compare :)

Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

Gaz mr-s

Like Ian above, I'm going the Koni route. Some people with a lot more knowledge than me have praised them, but you need to use the original strut housings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSnNZt3NiI 

Beachbum957

If you get new front top mounts, go with quality parts like KYB.  I originally ran ROCA top mounts with Tein springs, and the bearings were completely shot in under 20,000 miles.

Bossworld

Quote from: Beachbum957 on December 19, 2019, 20:11If you get new front top mounts, go with quality parts like KYB.  I originally ran ROCA top mounts with Tein springs, and the bearings were completely shot in under 20,000 miles.

Are the KYB fronts readily available? I ended up with the Japanparts ones (and they fixed my vibration at 70mph so the old ones were truly shot).

Was fairly easy to find KYB rear top mounts online but struggled to find vendors for the fronts.

People suggested Avensis ones which admittedly look similar but wasn't a risk I was willing to take.

Beachbum957

The KYB part # is SM5215 for the front mount.  It is readily available in the US from many sources, but I don't know about the UK. Some US companies like RockAuto ship international with reasonable rates.  The KYB Europe website catalog only lists the rear mount SM5799.  Oddly enough, the rear mount doesn't seem to be available in the US!

Gaz mr-s

I got the top mounts from 'Autodoc'.  O/E fronts are open ballraces with a rubber 'dust cover'.  The ones from Autodoc have sealed Japanese-made bearings. 

Ardent

Take it that 'autodoc' is ok then.
Always been a little suspicious,
Is delivery an issue?, as in, can take a while.

Gaz mr-s

Quote from: Ardent on December 21, 2019, 19:58Take it that 'autodoc' is ok then.
Always been a little suspicious,
Is delivery an issue?, as in, can take a while.

Delivery was quite prompt. There is a delivery charge, but even with that they were best-priced. It looks too that the bearings are replaceable, so if they do wear, replacing may be aption.

Bossworld

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on December 21, 2019, 17:14I got the top mounts from 'Autodoc'.  O/E fronts are open ballraces with a rubber 'dust cover'.  The ones from Autodoc have sealed Japanese-made bearings. 

Same ones I've fitted then; Japanparts/Ashika are one and the same.  As you say, a slightly different design to the stock ones.

neogeo13

Whiteline ARB helped a lot with body roll.
Be like water...
YouTube channel-mr2 screaming chicken
2zz-with alot of other bits.
FB group- Toyota on track

james_ly

I sold my Meisters as I'm not doing as many track days at the moment... and got to say going back to OEM suspension on the road - it's so much better! I think if anything I've got more grip than with the coilovers.
MR2 gone<br />GT86

Petrus

Quote from: james_ly on January  8, 2020, 11:11I sold my Meisters as I'm not doing as many track days at the moment... and got to say going back to OEM suspension on the road - it's so much better! I think if anything I've got more grip than with the coilovers.

Thanks for that real world observation!

jvanzyl

No one's mentioned it, but your bushes are old.
Replacing them makes the car feel tight and controlled - you know what all the wheels are doing. I highly recommend doing this along with your suspension refresh.

househead

Quote from: jvanzyl on January  8, 2020, 11:49No one's mentioned it, but your bushes are old.
Replacing them makes the car feel tight and controlled - you know what all the wheels are doing. I highly recommend doing this along with your suspension refresh.

For those of us that aren't very clued up, which bushes specifically are the most important to replace? From what I can tell, a full set of suspension bushes is indeed a lot of bushes!
2004 Sable Red Edition, TTE Twin Exhaust, Toyosports Manifold

jvanzyl

#21
Quote from: househead on January  8, 2020, 12:39
Quote from: jvanzyl on January  8, 2020, 11:49No one's mentioned it, but your bushes are old.
Replacing them makes the car feel tight and controlled - you know what all the wheels are doing. I highly recommend doing this along with your suspension refresh.

For those of us that aren't very clued up, which bushes specifically are the most important to replace? From what I can tell, a full set of suspension bushes is indeed a lot of bushes!

For reference I'm using the polybush diagram below:
You cannot view this attachment.

Your droplinks (7R) will get replaced as a matter of course with your suspension refresh as you'll likely end up cutting them off.
ARB flex will be reduced with replacement of 7S and 7W and it's a relatively easy job to do - you could start with these and the drop links & see what the difference is. 

7P and 7Q can be replaced by simply buying new control arms - we benefit from sharing a lot of components with the Yaris so you can buy replacements via this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/For-Toyota-Yaris-1999-2006-Lower-Front-Wishbones-Suspension-Arms-Pair/332659560803?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


Now when it comes to the rear 7T, U & V these can be sourced from here hopefully it's a full set.
https://www.euspares.co.uk/parts-catalog/arm-bushes-10672/toyota/mr-2/mr-2-iii-zzw3/14535-1-8-16v-vt-i-zzw30

replacing all these bushes will mean that you'll need a full geo correction, you could also put some camber bolts on the rear if you wanted. And in case you wondered bushes are past their best circa 100 000 miles or 10 years.

In terms of whats the most important... well I would actually venture to say that's divided into two categories:
1 - Stability at speed. You know this is a problem when your sphincter starts to clench the faster you go because you just don't feel "connected" or certain as to what's going on. I would say that the rear bushes (TUV) will correct this.

2 - Exact cornering - These are going to be the front (P&Q) one's.

The crazy thing with all this is that you don't know what you're missing till you drive a car with a refreshed bush setup, going back to your old setup feels vague and worrisome but you don't realise it till you try something that's been fixed. Don't get me wrong, an MR2 with knackered bushes still corners better than most cars, but there is an incredible difference.

Doing things like adding braces make a great difference to stability and reduction of "crashiness" but it's a cumulative thing. The cars handling is made up the shocks, springs, bushes, bracing and tyres. Fix one and you'll feel an improvement and more stress will be placed on the other areas. Keep going and things just get better and better.

So it's up to you as to what you "feel" is most important at this time to fix.

If I had my time to do it again, I'd replace everything as stock (suspension struts and springs etc the whole unit), fit Yoko's, and fit a front strut brace and mid under brace (TTE/Carolyn plus Snelbaard) and replace all the bushes! THAT my friend will make it as good as it can get.

For reference I'm polybushed with TEIN coilovers and EDFC2, with Toyo Proxes tyres in the summer. The Toyo's are what lets my setup down I think (sometimes anyway... except when I get a puncture. Then I'm glad I cheaped out with the toyos instead of the yoko's...)

househead

Thanks @jvanzyl that's super informative and helpful! My front drop-links were done by previous owner when he put the Teins on, but it's likely they need doing again if they'll bu cut off! I'll definitely look into the rest, makes sense to do the bushes if new springs and (potentially) new dampers are going on. The full geo shouldn't be too expensive and will be worth it to have everything bang on.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain the various bushes!
2004 Sable Red Edition, TTE Twin Exhaust, Toyosports Manifold

jvanzyl

Quote from: househead on January  8, 2020, 14:24Thanks @jvanzyl that's super informative and helpful! My front drop-links were done by previous owner when he put the Teins on, but it's likely they need doing again if they'll bu cut off! I'll definitely look into the rest, makes sense to do the bushes if new springs and (potentially) new dampers are going on. The full geo shouldn't be too expensive and will be worth it to have everything bang on.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain the various bushes!

No worries hey - just want everyone else to enjoy the upgrade as much as I did!

Joesson

@jvanzyl , Thanks for that John, the bushes in the link you provided seem to be rubber as opposed to the poly material often referred to for replacements.
Whenever I've read reports about the poly bush replacement and subsequent ride it is generally considered to be firm. I'm guessing that these rubber bushes will be nearer to OE, that would better suit me.

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