Failed ABS - the saga continues

SteveJ · August 16, 2003, 20:31

Got a phone call from Mr T in Dunstable yesterday (Friday) informing me that it was OK for me to keep using their loan car (spoken as if they were doing me a huge favour!).

Why? I hear you ask....

Because after a total of over 2 weeks in the workshop over the last 2 months they have failed miserably to fix the ABS on my 4 month old car. All they have achieved is putting flat spots on 2(!) sets of Yoko rear tyres.

I am now informed that the Toyota Regional Tech Manager will be inspecting the car (for the second time) on Monday in order to decide the next course of action which will more than likely result in the car being taken to Salford from where it is unlikely to return for at least 6 weeks!

The best bit is yet to come though - when speaking to Toyota customer-(bad)relations they were positively abbrasive and informed me in no uncertain terms that my problem was with the dealer and that they had no intention of either replacing the car or compensating me for the fact that I am paying for a £17,500 car whilst driving a £7,000 roller skate!

I await the result of Monday's visit with more than a little trepidation.

I do now have (courtesy of an anonymous source) the names of a few key people within Toyota's establishment who will be getting a number of phone calls on Monday.

Anonymous · August 16, 2003, 22:28

ABS has been around for a long time.... I don't understand why they can't fix it. It isn't exactly rocket science any longer.

Do you guys have anything comparable to the US Lemon Laws? (in American slang, a "lemon" is a dud, a POS, a turkey, etc)

A major subsystem that keeps your car down for more than 30 days during the first 12 months of ownership would usually qualify for some sort of legally required action on the part of the dealer/manufacturer chain over here. Your mileage may vary.

Best of luck.

Anonymous · August 17, 2003, 08:41

We don't have lemon laws, but we do have the Sale of Goods Act, which states:

1. Goods must be as described, of satisfactory quality, and fit for any
purpose which the consumer makes known to the seller.

2. Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a
reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the
price and any description.

3. Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor
defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

If goods are not of satisfactory quality the buyer is entitled, if he acts
within a reasonable time, to reject the goods and get his money back.

I'd say they're failing big time under all three of those points.

SteveJ · August 17, 2003, 19:39

Just been studying the 'Sale of Goods Act 1979' and 'Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982' in conjuction with the 'Sale & Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations' addition that came into force 31/3/03 (the day I signed for the car!) and I now believe that the dealer (and hence Toyota) have to prove that the car was not faulty when they delivered it to me as it is less than 6 months old.

This is something they are going to find very hard to do - how many dealers do you know that road test vehicles to the point of testing the ABS?

Further to this, even though I have allowed the dealer to attempt repairs to the vehicle, I am still dissatisfied with the result and can insist on replacement of the vehicle or a full refund. Being the (relatively) understanding person that I am, and taking into account the 12,000 miles I have covered in the 4 months I have had the car, replacement seems to be the most logical next step for them.

Let's see what they say on Monday s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

Anonymous · August 17, 2003, 19:45

It's nice how some laws do protect the public. Go get 'em Steve.

Peter Laborne · August 17, 2003, 21:00

Quote from: "stevej"replacement seems to be the most logical next step for them.

Erm, this is the same Toyota GB we are talking about? The same Toyota GB that has not used 1 piece of logic when dealing with my Roadster? The same Toyota GB that refuses to replace mine?

BTW - I should have quite an interesting update during next week. Put it this way, if I were to pick a smiley to represent me, it would be s:evil: :evil: s:evil:

SteveJ · August 17, 2003, 22:18

Quote from: "Peter Laborne"
Quote from: "stevej"replacement seems to be the most logical next step for them.

Erm, this is the same Toyota GB we are talking about? The same Toyota GB that has not used 1 piece of logic when dealing with my Roadster? The same Toyota GB that refuses to replace mine?

The advantage I have is the new 6 month clause which puts the burden of proof on the dealer/manufacturer not me - basically they have to prove there was nothing wrong with the car when they delivered it - something they cannot do as the PDI checks do not test the operation of the ABS

You on the other hand have to prove that the failure is due to either a manufacturing defect or design fault. Something that is going to prove VERY difficult indeed - you are now relying on Toyota wanting to save face with the public rather than being forced to act by law

SteveJ · August 18, 2003, 22:20

Well the Toyota Regional Tech Manager has driven my car today and from what I gather came back rather white faced after experiencing the rear wheels locking whilst the fronts kept rotating. s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

His immeadiate reaction was to insist that the car be taken to Salford for further investigation - something that I am not willing to allow to happen because by the time they have finished taking the car apart (and I mean APART!) the chances are that none of the components will fit properly with all of the associated creaks and rattles that you associate with a 10 year old wreck not a 4 month old car s:(

s:(

To cut a long (and very heated s:evil: :evil: s:evil: ) story short, I have formally informed Toyota and the Dealer that I no longer accept the vehicle and that they have to replace it without delay.

When collecting the car tonight, I understand that a number of meetings and discussions have taken place relating to my car - I look forward to what they try next......

Oh, and to add insult to injury, each time the car has gone in, I have asked them to carry out the 10K service, and on each occasion it has been returned unserviced so is now 2.5K over it's service interval.

Anonymous · August 18, 2003, 22:33

Good to see you not taking any sh*t. You've got the law on your side, and it's good to see you not letting a big frim push you around, just 'cause they're big.

Go get youself a car that works!

Good luck.

Anonymous · August 18, 2003, 22:37

Quote from: "stevej"Oh, and to add insult to injury, each time the car has gone in, I have asked them to carry out the 10K service, and on each occasion it has been returned unserviced so is now 2.5K over it's service interval.

You had better put a written complaint about about that to your dealer and CC to Toyota. Otherwise, they could turn around and say the warranty is void as the services have not been done. Hyundai pulled that one on me when I was 1000 over the service during my move to Munich, and there was a warranty claim on a know problem.
s:x :x s:x

SteveJ · August 19, 2003, 21:07

Now at the end of Day 1 of the battle proper, and I have discovered one thing - all of the staff at Toyota Customer Services take lunches that extend from 10 am through to 5.30 pm - they have got to be the most elusive creatures ever.

Perhaps I should get David Attenborough on the case - he seems good at tracking down hard to find (and previously presumed extinct) creatures s:(

s:(

The battle continues..............

Comer · August 19, 2003, 21:14

Steve did they acknowledge the ABS problem prior to fitting the Eibachs? I hope they don't try and blame it on removing that single screw by each strut that holds the ABS lead in place!!

SteveJ · August 19, 2003, 22:11

Quote from: "Comer"Steve did they acknowledge the ABS problem prior to fitting the Eibachs? I hope they don't try and blame it on removing that single screw by each strut that holds the ABS lead in place!!

When we fitted the Eibachs the other day, I had only just collected the car from it's second visit to the garage so if they try that argument they are on a hiding to nothing s:evil: :evil: s:evil:

Anonymous · August 20, 2003, 13:39

Mate, here is summit that may interest you, my dad bought a TVR Cerbera when they were first released, he had no end of problems with it, he had it for 8 months and it was at TVR for 6-7 of those months.

Anyway he "rejected" the car and asked for his money back from TVR and they refused, so he sued them -and won and also got damamges etc.

This was the first time some1 had actually won a case of this sort but i think it created a precedent.

Chin up mate, am sure it'll be ok. s:? :? s:?

Anonymous · August 20, 2003, 18:59

stevej

Was the car bought outright or on finance?
If the latter, the finance company is the one responsible for the mechanical defects on your car. After all they would have bought it from a dealer and then charge you until the HP is paid off.

I am sure I asked a similar question to another member but cannot recall the outcome.

s:)

s:) s:)

s:)

SteveJ · August 20, 2003, 21:56

Day 2 of the battle and everything seems worryingly quiet on the eastern front......

Did manage to catch a lesser spotted Customer Services rep in-between coffee breaks who assured me that there would be 2 or 3 of them (that must be the entire staff then!) discussing my case in further detail this afternoon, and he would call me back before the end of play.......hmmmm

I guess it is only 21:50 and there is some 2 hours 10 minutes left of today but I get the feeling I may not be getting that call....... s:(

s:(

Let's see what tomorrow's skirmish brings.......

SteveJ · August 20, 2003, 22:04

Quote from: "Roger H"Was the car bought outright or on finance?
If the latter, the finance company is the one responsible for the mechanical defects on your car. After all they would have bought it from a dealer and then charge you until the HP is paid off.

I part-ex'd my old '2 ('01 SMT) for £10K and the balance was from Toyota finance so I guess either way it's Toyota's problem - either their finance arm or the main company.

Anonymous · August 21, 2003, 11:08

Morning Steve
I'm certainly no expert but I am sure that Toyota Finance is responsible. I suggest that you study the HP agreement in detail. If my hunch is right you could put them on notice that you intend to cease payments to them because under the Consumer Credit Act they sold you a product that was not a merchantable quality.

Memory is a funny thing but I THINK it was bluegreeneyedblonde who was having some trouble and the posts at the time suggested a similar course of action.

Try not to be too s:(

s:( and keep s8)

s8)

s:)

s:) s:)

s:)

SteveJ · August 26, 2003, 15:41

Toyota GB Customer Services get better by the minute.......

On Friday 22/8 @ 14.30 I spoke to Hugh (who seems to be the poor sod who drew the short straw when my call came in!), and after much too'ing and fro'ing he agreed to work out a time scale for the investigation to take place at Salford. This info was supposed to be fed back by the end of play on that day.

It's now 14:45 on Tuesday 26/8 and I have not heard from Hugh, so contacted TCS again to be informed that he is on a training course until Thursday. When asked if anyone else was dealing with the call, I was informed that there were no notes on the call indictaing what we had discussed and there had been no update since 11:30 22/8 when Hugh called me.

To cap it all, the person I spoke to this afternoon said there was no way that an agreement of time scale could be reached as it was 'just not possible to predict'

TCS now have until tomorrow lunchtime to call me with a mutually agreed time scale to fix my vehicle before I appoint a solicitor to 'sue the arse off the idiots' under the terms of the 'Sale of Goods and Services act 1982'

Oh I am sooooo going to enjoy the next round s:evil: :evil: s:evil:

Anonymous · August 26, 2003, 15:51

Quote from: "SteveJ"'sue the arse off the idiots'

GO STEVE, GO STEVE! *little dance* KILL EM ALL!!!! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

SteveJ · August 27, 2003, 13:39

Not sure if I'm dissapointed or not, but Hugh rang me at about 11:00 today (27/8 ) with an update.

Basically they are offering to source a loan Roadster (or poss Celica) for the duration that my car is in the tech center at Salford. They will not however commit to a time-scale for the work to be carried out - I have made it quite clear that there still needs to be a cut-off point after which the car is declared unviable and is replaced.

I now wait with bated breath to see what they can find as a loaner - somehow I don't think it will be a '190 but you never know........ Engine swap anyone s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

Anonymous · August 27, 2003, 13:44

There is only one good thing about this... it could be worse... 1.0 Yaris anyone! s:o

s:o

SteveJ · September 6, 2003, 08:18

Still no more news from Toyota - now they are begining to wind me up again.

If anyone at TCS is reading this thread, watch out I'm coming for you on Monday and I'm not happy s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:evil: :evil: s:evil:

SteveJ · September 10, 2003, 09:16

Finally - signs of life at TCS.

Several calls yesterday (Tuesday) from 'Richard' at TCS (Don't know what has happened to Hugh - they say he is 'no longer available! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: ')

Basically, Toyota are having to rent a loan car for me which will be delivered to Camden on Monday 15/9 (probably a Celica 140 but the rental company have a couple of '2s which they may be able to get hold of) Once I have the loaner, my car will be taken into Salford for 'investigation'.

Toyota are still refusing to agree a maximum duration that the vehicle is in Salford before being declared unviable so I have put it on record that if I do not receive the car back within 2 months fixed to my complete satisfaction, I WILL be instructing my solicitor to take legal action against Camden Toyota and Toyota GB to get the vehicle replaced, and compensation for the grief and inconvenience they have caused thus far, and I'm sure will continue to cause in the future.

The one thing I have in my favour is the cost of the rental car plus the insurance (cause be buggered if I'm using my insurance for their loan car) is going to be HUUUUUUUGE so the sooner they fix my car the less of a loss they will make on it (the warranty work so far has wiped out any profit they made s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: )

s:evil: :evil: s:evil: :evil:

Anonymous · September 10, 2003, 09:45

Quote from: "SteveJ"(probably a Celica 140 but the rental company have a couple of '2s which they may be able to get hold of)

hay, it could be worse... look what i have today... s:? :? s:?

Nice to see there is at least some movement on the ABS problem though....!

Keep smiling mate! s:)

s:)