Whiteline Anti Roll Bars & Drop Link Thread Length - Experience Please

[virginpaul]

I have replaced stock Ant Roll Bars Front and Rear with up-rated (thicker) Whiteline bars as the stock units were very badly corroded.  I would have replace with OE bars but they were silly money in the UK and even sillier from Japan (shipping cost went through the roof due to their size - additional £180 shipping odd)

The issue I have is the nylok nuts which fit on the Drop Link ball joint threaded studs after passing through the flat section of the (thicker) ARB do not go into "safety" - ie the nut does not tighten down until thread passes through the nylon nut collar and into "safety" (in aero engineering terms that means there is 1.5 threads exposed beyond the nut).  There are no washers beneath the ARM to remove to get more thread section on the nut side of the ARB.

Has anyone else replaced their ARB's with the Whiteline uprated ARB's and face the same issue?

As an initial fix, I used threadlok (glue) on the threads and tightened them up to the require torque - which was achieved.  I don't think its going anywhere anytime soon, but as an aircraft engineer, I'd never be happy with this in the air!

The only solution I can see is obtaining drop links with longer ball joint bolt lengths - but wouldn't know where to start looking for these - what even is the standard length - I didn't measure them.

I post some pics of the issue.  Any suggestions gratefully received...

Front ARB to Drop Links:
General View
P1140859 by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

Nut fitted & Torqued
P1140850 by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

Nut fitted & Torqued
P1140855 by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

Rear ARB to Drop Links
General View
P1140866 by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

Close up sowing no thread protruding
P1140875 by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

If anyone else has done this job and "solved it" I'd be grateful to know.  Thanks.

[JB21]

I'll have a look at mine tomorrow to see what they look like. Don't remember having this issue when adjusting the rear bar though.

You may need some uprated links or just some OE ones with extended threads.

[1979scotte]

I don't reckon those drop links are the full ticket. Don't remember any body having an issue like this.

[Gaz mr-s]

I've read about this on a Facebook group, - more than one mention. Could you use half-nuts?

[Joesson]

Do you still have the OE bar? If so what is the thickness of the flat section?
Any difference would account for the loss of available thread.
But the difference in thickness would need to be significant, by the thickness of the nylon insert or more.
As @1979scotte suggests maybe the link is not correct/ the same as OE.

[virginpaul]

I don't have the original bars but they were significantly thinner at the mount points - sufficient for the loss of thread inside the nylok nuts.
It's possible the links are not great - nor OE standard.  They were replaced when I had my struts replaced - they had to be ground off!

I have done a bit more research and from spyderchat a number of people who fitted the thicker bars (whiteline, Addco or Saner's) often ran out of thread.

TWO's R Us stock replacement front and rear replacement drop links with super long threads are available so I may get myself a set of them.

Here's a pic of the "high&tight" sway bar end links installed
high&tight end links by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

Buying stock drop links is a gamble as I can't see they ever state the bolt length on the adverts - might end up with short ones again!

Thanks for your observations.

[Petrus]

Mine are like OPs.
The bolts are ever so much better fitting through the hole that I thought it no issue and simply put a bit of Loctite on the thread.

[Joesson]

I don't have the original bars but they were significantly thinner at the mount points - sufficient for the loss of thread inside the nylok nuts.
It's possible the links are not great - nor OE standard.  They were replaced when I had my struts replaced - they had to be ground off!

I have done a bit more research and from spyderchat a number of people who fitted the thicker bars (whiteline, Addco or Saner's) often ran out of thread.

TWO's R Us stock replacement front and rear replacement drop links with super long threads are available so I may get myself a set of them.



Buying stock drop links is a gamble as I can't see they ever state the bolt length on the adverts - might end up with short ones again!

Thanks for your observations.

The longer bolt also allows room for a washer, I do like to see a washer or two.

[thetyrant]

Mine are same its not ideal but never come loose, i check them every time im working on car prepping before a trackday and i think first time they moved a tiny bit probably just the powdercoating on bar softened though.

 You can get whiteline drop links which have longer threaded section but they are pricey for what they are, there maybe other options as well i seem to remember somebody saying the oe toyota links were longer threaded than 3rd party ones but might of been a different car. Drop of threadlock as mentioned above another idea.

[virginpaul]

Thanks for all your responses.  The front links currently fitted had the same length bolt section as the OE ones they replaced - I din't see them to compare as they were changed when I had the struts changed (had to be cut off by my mates garage team.

The bolts as installed have threadlock and are to spec torque.  They are probably fine,  as it's not a daily drive and I'll never track her, but as an Aircraft Engineer by trade I just can't accept a bolt not comfortably in safety. 

Mine is the profession where locking is king - be it stiff nuts, nylok's, tang washers, split pinned or wire locking.  Its a life and death thing on an aircraft and more so on a rotary (all the vibration!).  I will see if I can get a pair of the High&Tight beefy bar links from MR2's R Us shipped over and of course, report back on here.

Thanks again everyone - got to love this forum.

[normanh]

I would have an issue with the nylock in the 2nd picture as it is if its fully torqued up as the actual nylock hasnt been engauged this would not be effective.

Norman

[scm2004red]

I would consider those an unsafe fixing, an MOT examiner should pick up on that ineffective nyloc nut

[normanh]

Paul - are you using unsealed rose-joints in this configuration my understanding on these is they are not weather proof and wont last 10 minutes in our weather. Was told years back some Lambos had these and needed changing before a 1000 miles which might get you to Scotland and back.

Norman

[shnazzle]

Unrelated but, if you can be bothered, can you pop a review in of your K-Sports?

[Petrus]

For those upset with the nut: The nylon bit only does thát; lock. It does not add any better bolting down. Locking fluid does the exact same at the nylon bit.
Yes, an MOT inspector might object and a normal nut with locking fluid would sort that.

[scm2004red]

Not sure I would agree with you, by all means use a plain nut, but it would need a lockwasher to be safe, and ensure the thread of the bolt is fully into the nut. You have a lot more faith in locking fluid than I have.

[Petrus]

Not sure I would agree with you, by all means use a plain nut, but it would need a lockwasher to be safe, and ensure the thread of the bolt is fully into the nut. You have a lot more faith in locking fluid than I have.

Locking fluid is perfectly reliable. It comes in varous strengths and for this the trusty blue will do.

Now if you are old school, by all means drill the nut and use locking wire. Still a lot simpler/cheaper and just as safe as buying fancy ones.
I still have a roll of locking wire though can´t remember where the special ´pump´ pliers are :-(

[1979scotte]

Not sure I would agree with you, by all means use a plain nut, but it would need a lockwasher to be safe, and ensure the thread of the bolt is fully into the nut. You have a lot more faith in locking fluid than I have.

Locking fluid is perfectly reliable. It comes in varous strengths and for this the trusty blue will do.

Now if you are old school, by all means drill the nut and use locking wire. Still a lot simpler/cheaper and just as safe as buying fancy ones.
I still have a roll of locking wire though can´t remember where the special ´pump´ pliers are :-(

In this day and age where cars are bonded together with glue stronger than aluminium I'm sure it's fine.
Not ideal maybe or what one would prefer but sound enough.

[Petrus]

In this day and age where cars are bonded together with glue stronger than aluminium I'm sure it's fine.
Not ideal maybe or what one would prefer but sound enough.

Hint; wings - airplanes... :-)

[virginpaul]

Love the responses.  The nylok portion is just the anti vibration locking.  The bolts are secured initially by the correct toque setting for the material and diameter. 

In mine, and it seems a number of owners on here cases, thread lock has been applied to the cleaned faces.  This "should" effect the same anti vibration locking as the nylon.

For me, it's safe.  But, for me also, it's not forever.  It's not per design and as I've said, I'm an aircraft engineer and want to see the bolts in safety, especially nylok.  So for the short term, I'll tolerate it.  An MOT inspector might indeed fail it.  My garage owning buddy will hopefully chat the chap through what was done.  Long term I will replace.  I have until August!  If I replace with beefy bar links, and they come with plain nuts, I'll either use nyloks or apply thread-lok and use the standards.

Incidentally, nylok locking devices are only used in some simple interior stuff on aircraft. They don't perform well at temperature!  I've always considered them a rather cheap solution.  Thread lok is, as others have pointed out, as good as, or even better than a nylok nut at anti vibration locking
Any thing control system or structural related would be - US aircraft - wire locked (and I still have my snap on wire twisters and both Airframe/Engine wire and Avionic wire!) or British Aircraft - drilled bolts and castellated nuts with split pins (the bane of my young apprenticeship years working on BAC one-elevens and even Airbus wings and landing gears).

It was interesting to discover others have been where I tread.  The beauty of this board and Org.

[virginpaul]

Paul - are you using unsealed rose-joints in this configuration my understanding on these is they are not weather proof and wont last 10 minutes in our weather. Was told years back some Lambos had these and needed changing before a 1000 miles which might get you to Scotland and back.

Norman

Hi Norman,  no, the pic of the high&tight was from another owners post ref the same issue.  Currently all my balljoints are sealed (ooh missus).  They do a fully SS version for "the rust belt".  Still toying with options for a final fix!

[virginpaul]

I have the solution....

As Petrus reminded me.  Nothing like a bit of aircraft wirelocking.

So I ordered a pair of front links with solid spanner bases (not the daft Alan key drilled bolts) and drilled the nuts in readiness (2 holes, 180 degrees apart)...

Old School Aircraft Wirelocking by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

and I've dug out my twisters and aircraft spec mechanical wire (can't find my Snap-On ones, must have sold them when I came off the tools, these'll have to do)....

Old School Aircraft Wirelocking by virgin_pabs, on Flickr

Just got to get her up on jacks and change them over.... I'll add some threadlok blue for full "belt and braces" approach.

[scm2004red]

Excuse my ignorance, but where is  the locking effect? Presumably just poking a wire through the 2 holes isn't sufficient it must be tied to something to prevent nut undoing, I assume it isn't like a split pin through the whole assembly.

[Joesson]

Excuse my ignorance, but where is  the locking effect? Presumably just poking a wire through the 2 holes isn't sufficient it must be tied to something to prevent nut undoing, I assume it isn't like a split pin through the whole assembly.

I have seen this on multiple nut/ bolt fixings but not used to secure a single item. I guess the wire must be secured to some anchor point for a single fixing.
I found this that confirms my thoughts but I don't think I would trouble myself.
https://www.onpointdyno.com/safety-wire-how-and-why/

[Petrus]

Excuse my ignorance, but where is  the locking effect? Presumably just poking a wire through the 2 holes isn't sufficient it must be tied to something to prevent nut undoing,

...and thus it is, tied to something :-)
More precisely on the side holding the nut tight.

It is a tried and tested method since the dawn of securing fasteners, a biggy in racing rules/scrutineering,  even in airplanes.




Some additional info is that on Loctite's "Technology of Threaded Fasteners" page 40 is a nice chart of how long various locking methods last under vibration. You'll notice the spring type lockwasher lasted less time than the control.

Also NASA standard (NASA-STD-5020)  says "Free spinning split lock and tooth lock washers provide minimal, if any, locking."

Ah and nylock should ideally be not reused. This why in racing or the air industry it does not count.