'00 track car

[thetyrant]

Its impossible to know if all these engines failed for the same reason or they could all be for different reasons with a common cause,  ive heard of many 2zz fails on track but usually tired well abused engines so to be expected especially on such a high revving motor, the high revs puts a lot of strain on everything and there is a great steve morris engines on ytube which shows the difference revs makes to strain on internals,  i think  its clear the 2zz is not for you i would just cut your losses and save anymore heartache and switch to a different engine.

I think if it was me i would consider throwing a good 1zz lump in there as thats the easy/cheap swap, then get some seat time in the car see if same issues occur, hopefully not so you can enjoy the rest of car for awhile while you ponder what to do next.

Whatever you do dont use that oil cooler again throw it away, im sure its a big part of your problems

Good luck whichever way you go

[AJRFulton]

Yeah if I'm doing track days or sprints there is no need for the cooler.

Although the 1ZZ limits my options what I can do. It's not got the power to compete if I want to do that again.

[thetyrant]

I didnt mean dont use a oilcooler, just dont use the one you have there with bits of engine inside it   as ive mentioned before its best practice to NEVER reuse an oil cooler from a engine thats lets go as you can never guarantee to get all the bits out, some get lucky and they stay in cooler but its just not worth the risk, ive seen it a few times in the Evo scene i used to be part of, everyone that reused the cooler after flushing it best they could had engine issues again.

Lower power with the 1zz yes but hopefully you could beat on it all day long without issues and have some seat time try to gain time elsewhere, with the aftermarket ecu/decent mapper and breathing mods i dont think it would be that far behind your restricted 2zz setup, also its going to be a lot faster than a blown up 2zz

I would also question the tune on the 2zz setup which is another common part to all the engine issues, i think read somewhere one here he was using overfueling to restrict top end power and help cool the engine?, that could well of diluted the oil/lubrication etc,  if you have not already and you still have some i would get oil analysed to see if its heavy on fuel.

[AJRFulton]

I didnt mean dont use a oilcooler, just dont use the one you have there with bits of engine inside it   as ive mentioned before its best practice to NEVER reuse an oil cooler from a engine thats lets go as you can never guarantee to get all the bits out, some get lucky and they stay in cooler but its just not worth the risk, ive seen it a few times in the Evo scene i used to be part of, everyone that reused the cooler after flushing it best they could had engine issues again.

Lower power with the 1zz yes but hopefully you could beat on it all day long without issues and have some seat time try to gain time elsewhere, with the aftermarket ecu/decent mapper and breathing mods i dont think it would be that far behind your restricted 2zz setup, also its going to be a lot faster than a blown up 2zz

I would also question the tune on the 2zz setup which is another common part to all the engine issues, i think read somewhere one here he was using overfueling to restrict top end power and help cool the engine?, that could well of diluted the oil/lubrication etc,  if you have not already and you still have some i would get oil analysed to see if its heavy on fuel.

I used to have that mapped in as cooling was such an issue on the engine on 20-25 minute races. It did help but obviously with risk.

Although this engine didn't have that mapped in as was only sprinting, so cooling wasn't an issue.

Cooling was something I do struggle with in the 2ZZ, especially on >10 minutes of hot laps with no cool down laps. Progressively did things to help this - Oil cooler, big front radiator, cooling additives, wider side ducts, opening up the bonnet flaps to draw air - only helped a small bit but still had problems with oil temps peaking over 140°C. The shorter formats were fine with oil staying ~130°c, but that is a couple of hot laps then cool off for a lap and go again. I've had the issue with multiple engines.

The more I write down the more I realize the 2ZZ probably just isn't capable of reliably doing what I'm asking of it.

[jvanzyl]

" The more I write down the more I realize the 2ZZ probably just isn't capable of reliably doing what I'm asking of it."

Somewhere there is a siren with a red flashing light going off and @Alex Knight  will be along shortly to defend the 2ZZ's honour 

I do wonder if it's worth a consult with @tommyzoom99  on their version of the 1zz...

[Alex Knight]

@jvanzyl I will defend MY 2ZZ to the death, though I'm obviously not unaware of the reported failures on track. I can only speak to my experiences, but my engine has been the most reliable of any car I have had, ever. And that includes daily drivers.

But... as soon as I read the 130-140C oil temperatures above, across multiple engine failures, I immediately put 2 and 2 together. To me, this is very obviously your issue. Those temperatures are literally catastrophically high to me.

[AJRFulton]

Tbf Alex has been telling me to k20 for about 2yrs.

2ZZ is a really good engine but there's a difference between road, track and race use, with each stepping up.

[AJRFulton]

@jvanzyl I will defend MY 2ZZ to the death, though I'm obviously not unaware of the reported failures on track. I can only speak to my experiences, but my engine has been the most reliable of any car I have had, ever. And that includes daily drivers.

But... as soon as I read the 130-140C oil temperatures above, across multiple engine failures, I immediately put 2 and 2 together. To me, this is very obviously your issue. Those temperatures are literally catastrophically high to me.

I agree they are hot, although not untypical. The millers NT+ says it's good to there, but it's stretching the limits.

Water temperature is +90°.

Had temperature trouble with OEM and built engines. Various temp sensors and gauges. With and without oil coolers. With OEM radiators and with bigger motorsport radiator. With OEM ducts and with enlarged ducts. With water based and waterless coolants. With thermostat and without thermostat. With Fuchs and Millers oils. Each improvement makes it better, but it still creeps up eventually.

[JB21]

Didn't realise you were peaking over 140°c oil temps, that's insane with a cooler and is surly the issue.

For reference my non oil cooler 2zz can run for 20+ minutes at 10 tenths and it never reach 130°c. All I have is a huge mishimoto radiator.

[jvanzyl]

I have a thought/ question. Is there a difference between the water pumps found in a celica sourced engine vs a Lotus engine? Same goes for the thermostats?

[AJRFulton]

Didn't realise you were peaking over 140°c oil temps, that's insane with a cooler and is surly the issue.

For reference my non oil cooler 2zz can run for 20+ minutes at 10 tenths and it never reach 130°c. All I have is a huge mishimoto radiator.

I also have a huge mishimoto radiator (probably same one)

Water cooling has never been too much of an issue though. The radiator upgrade did bring water temps down 3-4°c, but did little for oil temps.

[Alex Knight]

I have a thought/ question. Is there a difference between the water pumps found in a celica sourced engine vs a Lotus engine? Same goes for the thermostats?

I believe that there are two options: metal and plastic - though I can't tell you which is used in which application.

[AJRFulton]

I've kept a low profile of late.

I found a 2zz for not much.

Engine seems fine, came out a MOT failed Celica which I picked up for £400 and scrapped for £200.....

My racing class has became an arms race and there is zero point in competing. My class is 1.6 to 2.1 N/A engines and with best will in the world getting the MR2 competitive against +250bhp K20 equip EP3 Civics and Clios would be a money pit. I'd need an NA engine with 220-230bhp to even stand a chance given those cars are of similar weight.

So..... It's removed the temptation to get back competing, although might do sprint in Superlap (where cars are classed on power to weight).

Going to go back to basics. OEM engine, sump and water cooler.

[Alex Knight]

You were never going to win on a low-ish budget and a 2ZZ.

Glad the pressure is off for you, and you can just enjoy they car for what it is now.

[AJRFulton]

You were never going to win on a low-ish budget and a 2ZZ.

Glad the pressure is off for you, and you can just enjoy they car for what it is now.

If I'm honest with myself, I don't really enjoy driving that much. I think I'll get bored doing track days. I really enjoy the intensity of competition. So I don't know what I'll end up doing with the car.

Reality is though if you want to race you either need money or time. If you have neither, it's going to be very hard to do unless you have a lot of support.

I'm an engineer, and whilst it pays enough to live a comfortable life, it's never going to pay the amount needed to give the 5 figure build budget needed. I don't have enough time either to do it myself.

There's a reason why the big chunk of folk on track are either successful people or people working in the motor trade (who have the equipment and skills to hand.... And can potter on the car for an hour here and there).

[AdamR28]

Sounds a bit daft but... have you considered giving the car less grip? This very often equates to more fun IMO, and the tyres required for reduced grip usually mean less faff too 

[AJRFulton]

Sounds a bit daft but... have you considered giving the car less grip? This very often equates to more fun IMO, and the tyres required for reduced grip usually mean less faff too 

I tend to find tyres like TR1's, NS2R's, Rain sports, etc.... they just melt and fall apart...

Unless it's damp, then they are perfectly fine.

[Iain]

Not thought about racing in the MR2 Championship?

Its quite affordable as far as racing goes imo, and theres good rules and regs in place to keep the budget down.

[AJRFulton]

Not thought about racing in the MR2 Championship?

Its quite affordable as far as racing goes imo, and theres good rules and regs in place to keep the budget down.

Absolutely have, if I lived 3-4hrs further south I'd be doing it. However, as it stands, trailering the car for 4hr - I'd still be like... Lancaster maybe.

Brands, Snetterton, etc - both would be in the region of 1000 mile round trips with a trailer.

Unfortunately, as the crow flies, I'm about as close to a track like Brands, as somebody living in London is to the south of France.

The commitment to the travel would just be too much.

[jvanzyl]

Would the 2AR swap not be a viable option to provide the power within budget?

[AJRFulton]

Would the 2AR swap not be a viable option to provide the power within budget?

Probably could do a 2AR swap a little cheaper, but to be honest, if I was going to the expense of configuring the car for another NA engine - it would take a lot of convincing for me not to be going down the K20 route.

[Alex Knight]

If I'm honest with myself, I don't really enjoy driving that much. I think I'll get bored doing track days. I really enjoy the intensity of competition. So I don't know what I'll end up doing with the car.

Shame. You have clearly picked the wrong hobby for yourself if you don't enjoy driving.

[jvanzyl]

Probably could do a 2AR swap a little cheaper, but to be honest, if I was going to the expense of configuring the car for another NA engine - it would take a lot of convincing for me not to be going down the K20 route.

True -  it is a well worn path.

[AdamR28]

I tend to find tyres like TR1's, NS2R's, Rain sports, etc.... they just melt and fall apart...

Unless it's damp, then they are perfectly fine.

Understood! Ever use shaved road tyres? They hang on a lot better than full tread versions of the same.

[AJRFulton]

I started breaking apart the old engine and I think I found what killed it - probably a mistake on my part.

The oil pickup...... I found a little bag in it, it was pretty well hidden, but while picking out the bits of bearing this came out too.

And well.... I'm pretty sure it's one of the tiny ones I use for putting odd nuts in and labelling so it's on me.

Can only assume it stuck to the sump somehow. I would have cleaned the sump out one final time with brake cleaner  and a microfibre just before putting it on - so it must have gotten in there very close to assembly time.