1ZZ supercharging - Mercedes w203 Eaton M65

Started by MrT, November 29, 2017, 22:16

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lamcote

#25
If anything, I am likely to have slightly rounded up the dimensions to the nearest half inch, to allow a small margin for error, but hopefully it won't be far off.

I must admit I thought the nose was longer on the Mini than the Mercedes but may well be wrong.
Silver 2004 MR2 -  Unmodified but very shiny.

MrT

#26
Hi Carolynne and Patrick.
Thanks for the help so far. Please don't feel my actions have dismissed your advice about fitting a charger on the front of the engine. I'm just convinced I can find an effective way to do so. Or want to prove myself wrong. It's the finding out that is as much an enjoyment as the getting it right.
Your help is greatly appreciated.


cheers

Tyler
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

lamcote

#27
We're all here to learn.
Silver 2004 MR2 -  Unmodified but very shiny.

MrT

#28
Patrick, your 5.5 inches, is that to the top of the bunny ear mounts please? How high to just the body of the charger please?
Thanks


cheers

Tyler
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

shnazzle

Quote from: "MrT"Patrick, your 5.5 inches, is that to the top of the bunny ear mounts please?.....

.... StuC? Help me out here bruv
...neutiquam erro.

lamcote

#30
It was a while ago but I think it's 8 inches to the top of the ears, the 5.5 inches was what I thought would be the minimum possible total depth of the supercharger ie the flat surface of the top face to the bottom of the inlet pipe. The "bunny ears" are part of the water pump.

Measuring from the flat top face to the flat of the back of the chamber would be less than that, because the inlet pipe protrudes a bit, but I didn't take a direct measurement of that dimension.

Don't worry shnazzle, it does make perfect sense, have a look at a photo (and it's not remotely smutty, but I do wish he had referred to my 8 inches instead!)
Silver 2004 MR2 -  Unmodified but very shiny.

MrT

#31
I almost didn't ask the question knowing some wise cracker would chime in...

Patrick, I forgot the inlet was raised, makes sense now of course. And I thought the bunny ears didn't come off with the water pump. Am I wrong?

Thanks


cheers

Tyler
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

lamcote

#32
I'm afraid I don't know, I had assumed they did but may well be wrong, hopefully Carolyn can let us know.
Silver 2004 MR2 -  Unmodified but very shiny.

lamcote

Silver 2004 MR2 -  Unmodified but very shiny.

MrT

#34
Ah perfect thanks Patrick. So they can be removed and blanked off.

I await some info from Carolynne.

Interestingly, the M24 is not that much smaller it seems. Although I recognise that volumetrically it is. I'm playing with the Eaton simulator to see what useable performance that might give with a reducing ratio CVT drive. I'll post when I have some working calculations.

cheers

Tyler
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

Carolyn

#35
When it stops being minus several in the workshop, I'll go measure.....
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

lamcote

#36
I'm assuming that Eaton have found the most efficient design and diameter for the rotors and simply vary the length of the rotors to create different capacities, this would avoid the need for any major redesign for each different size.

The width and height of the various models will therefore not be all that different.
Silver 2004 MR2 -  Unmodified but very shiny.

lamcote

#37
Oops
Silver 2004 MR2 -  Unmodified but very shiny.

MrT

#38
Thanks Carolynne, no rush.


cheers

Tyler
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

Carolyn

#39
Right... It is a VERY irregular shape.   The highest point at the top (not including the outlet we fabricated) is at the opposite end to the lowest point.  This makes things 'not easy' for measuring with the thing in the car and surrounded by 'stuff'.
So this is my best shot:  With out the water pump,  Overall length, including pulley) - 14" or 356 mm.  Overall height (surprised me!) - 7" or 175 mm.  Width 6.5" or 165 mm.  This is the envelope of space you will need to free up,, but as it's such an irregular bugger, it might just pop in where least expected!!
My method was: Take the exhaust and AC compressor off the engine while it's in the car, lift it up, get an M 45, see where I could stick it.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

MrT

#40
Hi Carolynne
Thanks. My method is the same. So far. The intake is coming off next. I don't want the intake path near the exhaust. I believe I can find space in there similar to the TRD setup but we'll see.


cheers

Tyler
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

MrT

#41
Hi Folks
Merry Christmas, happy new year etc. Would anybody have an M45 charger I could borrow for mock up etc please? I'm chewing on an idea and hoped to prove concept before plumbing for a good charger myself.
Thanks


cheers

Tyler
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

Matt-T

Hello all,

Did anything come of this supercharging endeavour? I'm looking to do a similar thing with an earn m65 if possible.

Cheers
Matt

Quote from: MrT on November 29, 2017, 22:16Hello forum

I've challenged myself to figure out a simple concept for supercharging a 1zz. Initially I was interested in simple low pressure and running the totally stock ECU like some turbo kits but I've decided to develop/figure out a configuration to offer flexibility of a low pressure and stock ECU setup and be able to scale it to full power builds.

 It so happens that in the plethora of different kompressor configurations used by Mercedes they left us a nearly perfect setup to achieve this. I initially was going to use the M45 mini charger due to size and availability and similarity in application to the 1zz but wanted to check all options when I found the Mercedes-Benz w203 era C-class models' M65 charger is a far better solution. Note: there are many different versions of C-CLASS kompressor models and you must get the right charger but I will explain which and why below.

It is coincidence that I ended up going for an M65 charger, the added performance potential is fine and actually I'm happy to be able to run it slower for less heat etc in the stock ECU setup. The governing parameters however are the intake and pipework orientation. I intend to lay the charger on its back in place of the AC compressor on the stock belt run and push air up into the manifold. The M62 model is suitable however requires a combined charger intake and output manifold due to its configuration. See below:

[attachment=1:23rd4v0q] ia1 2001-2004-Mercedes-Benz-SLK230-R170-M62-Supercharger.jpg ia1 [/attachment:23rd4v0q]

The M65 however has an integrated 90deg intake turning back towards the same orientation as the output of the charger plus a bypass duct and valve in the same orientation. All perfect for the charger to lay on its back beneath the manifold (and in nice fresh air not hot engine air) and keep the routing changes minimal. See below:

[attachment=0:23rd4v0q] ia0 Mercedes_w203_Eaton_M65_supercharger.jpg ia0 [/attachment:23rd4v0q]

There are 2 ways to approach the manifold. One is keep the stock manifold and make an output pipe from the charger and a simple input pipe in place of the throttle. The throttle body must move upstream of the charger but this is simple and it needn't move far. My preferred alternative is using a bespoke manifold made from scratch or half a 2zz manifold (engine half of 2 piece model, modded flange holes) and a structural connecting manifold to the charger to both plumb and mount it, plus bracing to the block near the pulley.This is optimal in my mind for air flow, intake length & volume and simplified installation. It frees space for locating the throttle and better supports the mounting of the charger. I'd also like to use the larger 2zz throttle simply because I will be altering it etc, but I'll probably stick with stock everything for the low pressure stock ECU setup to begin with.

I'll try sketch up the layout on the tablet tomorrow also and upload a few pics.

That's the easy bit. I then want to fit a pressure relief return fuel rail system and higher pressure pump with stock injectors first and consider upgrading to 2zz injectors if needed. I already have a good exhaust on my car so should be ok to begin with.

Please feel free to give pragmatic and constructive feedback or input but keep subjective conjecture or unrelated banter out of the thread. I'm happy to have a separate thread to discuss such matters once my car is faster than yours and I can get away if need be...

PS: pics are on PC so will add them tomorrow.


cheers

Tyler

(edited trying to get more than 3 images in the post... See below for layouts)
Quote from: MrT on December 10, 2017, 23:20Then here are measurements of the pumps side by side. Apologies for the hoist being in the way, the engine was hanging freely at this point having liberated the pump.

PS: the AC system lost its gas years ago, no CFCs were released in the process!

PPS: pics are oriented to align the measurements to the rule so are fairly accurate.


cheers

Tyler

MrT

@Matt-T nope, it is still sitting like that waiting. I finally have a workshop with space to work on it but no time... My idea was to fit the SC in place of the AC with a fabricated Alu manifold onto a 2zz intake top half, OR just some pipework to the stock intake if KISS. I would like to fit a charge cooler in that fabricated manifold (chop up an AMG 63 cooler) but need a TIG and some materials, bit complicated.
Now I am considering whether I should relocate the alternator (could use a smaller size) and fitting the SC higher up where there is space and make that manifold go from the SC directly to the injector flange without cooling. I don't want high power, just smooth power. Ultimate aim is 200WHP and 200Wtq.

Your M65 might pump quite a bit of air mind, what boost is it set at? Got any pictures?
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

Winston0092

I try to resume this post :)
Any update? I have a supercharger from a r53 mini sitting in the garage and I was trying to figure out if there is enough room to fit it in the engine bay, moving the a/c compressor on the hot side...

Something like this (don't mind it is an eaton M45 from an SLK):
You cannot view this attachment.
or
You cannot view this attachment.

Not sure about firewall distance.

Carolyn

It's been done.

https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?topic=57942.0

The only place it will fit is in place of the idler pulley.  A custom exhaust manifold will be needed.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

Winston0092

Yeah, I've seen that post: no way to fit in the cold side of the engine, @Carolyn ?

Carolyn

Nope - not without butchering the bulkhead.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

Winston0092

Confirm. It does not fit.

Is there any drawing of the header exhaust to try and design something suitable?
I agree the only way is to squeeze the s/c on the hot side, using the idler pulley.
I would like to keep the 2-holes flange compatibility with most aftermarket catback...


Carolyn

No chance on your exhaust ideas, I'm afraid.  It will be a complete custom exhaust.

The pulley on the supercharger is just the right sixe, BTW, which does simplify matters.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

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