Help fine tuning emu black tune for MOT

[jvanzyl]

Did you tack them in place before welding in the bends etc? Could be that the bends are putting stress into the V band faces as the system moves with the engine, especially if the flexi isn't big enough or not in the right position.

When I get a chance to work on it I'll take lots of pics.. I've got a decent size flexi in there.. but the whole thing is under tension I think..

[jvanzyl]

RIGHT!
No more exhaust leak, and I've spent the past while trying to get the tune right. At higher revs I'm confident it now works correctly but now at the lower revs I'm thinking it keeps sitting to too lean despite fiddling forever trying to make it sit at 1.0 continuously.. it seems to wonder into 1.04 and higher the whole time..

[jvanzyl]

If it has been tuned with an exhaust leak which was causing air ingress on the tuning session, once the leak is fixed you may look at your logs to find that the whole tune is overly rich as the lambda readings used while tuning contained rogue oxygen. Once you fix the leak, take it for a drive then attach your log files and tune file as I would give you an uneducated and unqualified opinion if you desire. After all the infinite room full of monkeys with typewriters would write the perfect tune eventually.

Attached is a log from one of my cars showing the purple line "EGO Correction (%)" value though gear pulls. 100% is zero correction from the VE tables tune, while say 105% is adding 5% correction thus the VE table is too skinny, and if it were 90% correction then the VE table is too fat. Looking at the 4th gear pull highlighted in blue, getting that green Lambda line to sit at flat as possible at the target is the aim of the game while the corrections are as close to 100% as possible, preferably sitting below 100% because its better to take away fuel than rely on closed loop corrections to add it in with delayed response.

Oh and I've been trying to recreate your lovely log.. but I cannot find EGO correction in the EMU black software... and I've got a sneaky suspicion it's only in the Pro.. is there any other log value that I can use instead?

[simonrobinson]

To look at your logs I have had to upgrade my EMU software from 2.138 to 2.169 and that is why you cannot find EGO correction. "EGO correction replaced by Short term trim strategy." is in the version control of ECU master. So the magic datalogging value is now Short term trim corr.

It appears they have changed lambda target strategy but anyway I digress! And now it only kicks in outside of tickover.

During your idle it is not using any sort of fuel trim, that sits solid at 100%, it is though using "idle ign. correction" to hamper or excite the engine speed to achieve your desired idle speed. The ignition is set to 8.5 degrees on your table at the idle spot. But its pulling it to about 5 degrees to achieve your idle.

Now I think, if you mess with your throttle body stop, or get your idle control valve working it would hit idle control better, making your idle AFR not wobble about. But this is a world of last minute MOT fixes! It appears your idle control motor is not doing anything, its just staying at 42% / 137 steps. Maybe it does not work very well or is not setup. And thus ECUMaster is falling back to ignition retarding/advancing to chase the target idle.

You could just manually change your ignition timing in the idle cells to 5 degrees to see if that stabilises you. And your target idle is set to 950rpm while you are only idling at 900rpm, so its trying to hit a target it cannot reach. Maybe you should change the warm "idle target rpm" to 900rpm.

A combination of changing the target speed to what it can achieve, with the timing it uses to achieve it might stabilise your ARF's allowing you to tune that better. Its just hunting about in PID loops trying to achieve the impossible at the moment.


Now for your fast idle tests which are pretty good. You are hitting 110% Short term trim corr. for it to hit your target of 1.00 lambda, it needs more fuel in these cells. Now that one line has been increased to 41 / 42.... its needs the table to be smooth, can't have the values above and below it going up and down!



The aim of the game is for your VE table to get you close to bang on to your target lambda. Using closed loop correction factor to get you on target is not cool and will always lead to wobbly feedback loops. Try that sort of tuning strategy on WOT under boost and you are playing dangerous games, remarkably modern ecus manage to fill the gap pretty quickly, but its seriously uncool.

[simonrobinson]

Your idle is not just AFR unstable, but its lean too, and that will currently get you a fail if the measurement is true. The block outlined below needs to be set to the same value as the speed and vacuum wobble about at idle, this I'd probably start about 36.0 maybe, then see how that goes.

[jvanzyl]

To look at your logs I have had to upgrade my EMU software from 2.138 to 2.169 and that is why you cannot find EGO correction. "EGO correction replaced by Short term trim strategy." is in the version control of ECU master. So the magic datalogging value is now Short term trim corr.

It appears they have changed lambda target strategy but anyway I digress! And now it only kicks in outside of tickover.

During your idle it is not using any sort of fuel trim, that sits solid at 100%, it is though using "idle ign. correction" to hamper or excite the engine speed to achieve your desired idle speed. The ignition is set to 8.5 degrees on your table at the idle spot. But its pulling it to about 5 degrees to achieve your idle.

Now I think, if you mess with your throttle body stop, or get your idle control valve working it would hit idle control better, making your idle AFR not wobble about. But this is a world of last minute MOT fixes! It appears your idle control motor is not doing anything, its just staying at 42% / 137 steps. Maybe it does not work very well or is not setup. And thus ECUMaster is falling back to ignition retarding/advancing to chase the target idle.

You could just manually change your ignition timing in the idle cells to 5 degrees to see if that stabilises you. And your target idle is set to 950rpm while you are only idling at 900rpm, so its trying to hit a target it cannot reach. Maybe you should change the warm "idle target rpm" to 900rpm.

A combination of changing the target speed to what it can achieve, with the timing it uses to achieve it might stabilise your ARF's allowing you to tune that better. Its just hunting about in PID loops trying to achieve the impossible at the moment.


Now for your fast idle tests which are pretty good. You are hitting 110% Short term trim corr. for it to hit your target of 1.00 lambda, it needs more fuel in these cells. Now that one line has been increased to 41 / 42.... its needs the table to be smooth, can't have the values above and below it going up and down!



The aim of the game is for your VE table to get you close to bang on to your target lambda. Using closed loop correction factor to get you on target is not cool and will always lead to wobbly feedback loops. Try that sort of tuning strategy on WOT under boost and you are playing dangerous games, remarkably modern ecus manage to fill the gap pretty quickly, but its seriously uncool.

Brilliant - thank you!

I'm going to have a look at your suggestion on the ignition timing, I was adjusting it tonight having some success. Will see what this adjustment along with lowering the target idle speed to 900 yields.

I need to look into this idle control motor you speak of...

Your idle is not just AFR unstable, but its lean too, and that will currently get you a fail if the measurement is true. The block outlined below needs to be set to the same value as the speed and vacuum wobble about at idle, this I'd probably start about 36.0 maybe, then see how that goes.

OK.. so 36 (ISH) in those 6 cells and then setting idle target to 900.. got it.

I did also update the injectors call ever so slightly.. it did seem to help level things out in terms of smoothness. (This is a product of the RRR style tuning).

[jvanzyl]

Aaand  just noticed the idle ign vs clt chart.. if I'm reading this right it's pulling 4.5 degrees when warm... Is this where my degrees are going during idle?

Further note - that idle valve type is set to PWM.. and apparently the 1ZZ uses a rotary solenoid type valve..! Which isn't on the list:

[shnazzle]

Aaand  just noticed the idle ign vs clt chart.. if I'm reading this right it's pulling 4.5 degrees when warm... Is this where my degrees are going during idle?

That was one of the things I was saying when you couldn't hear me while driving LOL

[shnazzle]

For @simonrobinson also worth noting on John's setup is incorrect injector offsets.

There's also a frightening amount of similarity between John's calibrations across the board and mine from like 2019 on a totally different car. Copy-paste is the name of the game.

Being familiar with these tunes I just happened to know injector cals are never entered (mine was set to 210cc when I had 440cc). But with John's voltage issues we saw it in action. When he pulled his window switches whilst driving it dropped under 12v and it went very lean, coinciding directly with the voltage drop...well...that could only be one thing.

Bumper the offset up a bit (still well short of the spec sheet of these injectors) and lambda held miles better. So much so that autotune could only provide minor  adjustments of hundredths and thousandths after a run.

Therefore the fueling map is off, but it needs to be, as the offsets are wrong by a fair bit.

Maybe the above helps in the observations. And as you pointed out the map was stupid lean low down. Also timing was far too retarded at idle.

[Ardent]

Scares me silly, but fascinated reading this.

[Gaz2405]

I'd go into the settings and turn off ignition idle control and see where it sits without any correction and see if the IACV can manage it.

[jvanzyl]

So this morning the weather was nice and wet... Not like last night when I finished the tune.. so I don't think that helped.. I tried to compensate but to no avail. My HC count was too high even on idle. So somehow having passed last time I've failed this time.
The place was in a also in a rush and they didn't log it into the system (it was the free of charge retest) so I've got no print out but I was watching the values on the screen and although lambda and everything was fine, the HC count was above 160 I think..

So I'm in a place where I can hit lambda on my car, but still have too much unburnt fuel.. I believe i've dealt with the exhaust leak, I can't hear anything leaking like last time. And I'll have another go at everyone's comments above, but I suspect it might be a lost cause.

So next steps I think are:

- Find a local mapper that understands daily driver and MOT passing needs and start again.
- change to good quality 400 cell cat

Rather.. fed up at the moment, honestly thought @shnazzle and I had nailed it last night.

[Call the midlife!]

Bit late to say it I know but from personal experience I would NEVER use RRR again for anything destined for road/daily driver use. I'm sure they're great at race prepping, judging by the number of race cars they set up but I had a similar "copy and paste" basic map put on mine and it never ran properly until I took it somewhere else.

[simonrobinson]

When I look at your logs the lambda has sudden spikes all over the shop and constantly bounces high low. Part of me suspect you may have a bit of a misfire or a weak coil pack etc. Which would line up with your HC's issue. If you unplug an injector at a time you can hear the weaker loss.

I've been stuck in circles in my life far too many times with car problems that are not straight forward to solve, and usually its caused by a whole collection of smaller issues. Your idle strategy needs addressing properly, and Gaz is bang on the money - turn off all these auto correction strategies (closed loop lambda & idle) and get it dialled in properly, then turn them back on. But you can never dial in a faulty machine.

Maybe walk away from the problem for a few days, get past this little dent in your soul. There is another day ahead, this adventure has opened your eyes to some of the little bits that need cleaning up on your build which is very normal. Use your senses, you can smell the HC's, and they tend to make more moisture from the tail pipe.

If you get this all right it'll be a robust, tight and crisp turbo build. This is where most people fail, they drive them about straight from the "tuners", get a couple of thousand miles then rattle knock kersplunk and it gets left on a driveway for the next 5 years.

[simonrobinson]

Also if you look at this partial pull log, you are at 45% throttle. Look at all those knock events! Either the knock sensor detection isn't calibrated or its pinging a bit which on a partial throttle drive isn't good as its a road car. Although your boost control looks solid. While your AFRS are really all over the shop.




While on this full WOT pull, it holding a rock steady 28 psi = 14psi of boost, and the AFR is solid as a rock, with no knock events. So at full chat the tune is good!
And it must go really well with a bar down its throat

[jvanzyl]

Hi @simonrobinson thank you for the advice.

I have another set of coils on the side I can test with.. but part of this electrical gremlin thing has got me wondering if it is related..

I'm going to take some timeout and chill as you say :-)

Also if you look at this partial pull log, you are at 45% throttle. Look at all those knock events! Either the knock sensor detection isn't calibrated or its pinging a bit which on a partial throttle drive isn't good as its a road car. Although your boost control looks solid. While your AFRS are really all over the shop.




While on this full WOT pull, it holding a rock steady 28 psi = 14psi of boost, and the AFR is solid as a rock, with no knock events. So at full chat the tune is good!
And it must go really well with a bar down its throat

Erm.... HOW am I at 14psi with a 10 PSI wastegate..? I don't have a boost controller just running of the spring strength.. something has got to be wrong here..

[jvanzyl]

Just had a look at the boost gauge which records the highest value.. and it's saying 12.9 was the highest psi.. looks like my wastegate has failed..

[simonrobinson]

I'm trying to do my day job but I can't stop thinking about your little puzzle. And half my mind is on work and half on this. I'm doing a rubbish job of both to be honest.

The ignition timing problem at idle might be screwing your HC's. 7 to 5 degrees at idle just isn't right.

If the crank timing real world is true to the table, then this sort of engine will want about 12 degrees of timing at idle. That will give it the full burn in the cylinder so there is less HC's going out the exhaust valve. Now its getting retarded down to this 7 / 5 area just to make the idle work - which is just a tomfoolery and its not going to burn it in time.

You need a sensible idle timing, then make it idle the correct way. I bet if you disable the idle control strategy, push the timing to 12 degrees it idles wrong, and that needs dealing with by strangling the air intake at idle.

Its just food for thought, the problem is not in front of me.

[Gaz2405]

I'm trying to do my day job but I can't stop thinking about your little puzzle. And half my mind is on work and half on this. I'm doing a rubbish job of both to be honest.

The ignition timing problem at idle might be screwing your HC's. 7 to 5 degrees at idle just isn't right.

If the crank timing real world is true to the table, then this sort of engine will want about 12 degrees of timing at idle. That will give it the full burn in the cylinder so there is less HC's going out the exhaust valve. Now its getting retarded down to this 7 / 5 area just to make the idle work - which is just a tomfoolery and its not going to burn it in time.

You need a sensible idle timing, then make it idle the correct way. I bet if you disable the idle control strategy, push the timing to 12 degrees it idles wrong, and that needs dealing with by strangling the air intake at idle.

Its just food for thought, the problem is not in front of me.

This is exactly the issue I had with mine, I was cheating the idle by holding the tps at 2% and using ihn timing to bring it down.

It may need some slight adjustment at the IACV.

What's your tos reading at idle?

I'd lock the ignition timing at 10 or 12 degrees and go from there.

[simonrobinson]

Erm.... HOW am I at 14psi with a 10 PSI wastegate..? I don't have a boost controller just running of the spring strength.. something has got to be wrong here..

I've measured various actuator springs, and they tend to be rated at the pressure they start to move at which is a bit vague as it depends on preload. Mechanical boost control is also a product of the waste gate sizing and the pivot arm length. But you have boost control which is good, its not creeping away to infinity, although that does result in lots of power!

If you have a target boost value in mind, its a better to use a weaker spring, say 7 psi, then run a boost control solenoid to one of the available outputs on the ecumaster black. That way you can have close loop boost control enabled, and ramp up the boost as the revs increase so you can be kind to your clutch and transmission gear.

[jvanzyl]

Hi all - ok info overload here.. I'm going to work through all your comments and questions when I get a chance tomorrow.
BUT to enable that, what is @Gaz2405

-TOS reading?
When you say "lock the ignition timing", is that a turn of phrase or do you literally have to do something other than writing those values in?

I've measured various actuator springs, and they tend to be rated at the pressure they start to move at which is a bit vague as it depends on preload. Mechanical boost control is also a product of the waste gate sizing and the pivot arm length. But you have boost control which is good, its not creeping away to infinity, although that does result in lots of power!

If you have a target boost value in mind, its a better to use a weaker spring, say 7 psi, then run a boost control solenoid to one of the available outputs on the ecumaster black. That way you can have close loop boost control enabled, and ramp up the boost as the revs increase so you can be kind to your clutch and transmission gear.

So I'm ok if it's behaving consistently, when it was mapped we determined it started opening at 10PSI but I was under the distinct impression it was fully open prior to 13 psi as that's really the max these engines (rods) should be subjected to.

I'm going to have a look around for a 7PSI dog leg actuator at some point and put the boost controller back in then..

Anyway.. I think fixing the electrical gremlins is going to be required so tomorrow I'm going to use my little batter/alternator tester and then likely I'll go old school and get a normal metric tonne battery.. probably have to move a bunch of stuff in the engine bay to make room as well which'll be annoying.

[Gaz2405]

Hi all - ok info overload here.. I'm going to work through all your comments and questions when I get a chance tomorrow.
BUT to enable that, what is @Gaz2405

-TOS reading?
When you say "lock the ignition timing", is that a turn of phrase or do you literally have to do something other than writing those values in?

So I'm ok if it's behaving consistently, when it was mapped we determined it started opening at 10PSI but I was under the distinct impression it was fully open prior to 13 psi as that's really the max these engines (rods) should be subjected to.

I'm going to have a look around for a 7PSI dog leg actuator at some point and put the boost controller back in then..

Anyway.. I think fixing the electrical gremlins is going to be required so tomorrow I'm going to use my little batter/alternator tester and then likely I'll go old school and get a normal metric tonne battery.. probably have to move a bunch of stuff in the engine bay to make room as well which'll be annoying.

Sorry typo...

TPS throttle position sensor.

You can lock the ignition in the ignition settings, it's just a tick box that way there's also no correction factor from anywhere too.

[simonrobinson]

My voltage dives out when I max my windows, you can see it how all you light go dim. Maybe just jump lead yourself to another battery for proof of concept before investing much effort.




Ignition lock function.

[jvanzyl]

Hi all- so first of all again a big thanks to everyone.

In the event you would like to receive copies of the logs and setup files that being discussed and be a part of this slight freak/horror show please PM me your email address and I'll send out copies to you on blind copy.

Just to clarify what I've done:
Battery and alternator checked out fine
Regapped the sparks to 1mm. They were all pretty much there.
Swapped out the coil packs to another set.

I've had a good fiddle around, because let's be clear that's an accurate description of my efforts.














Tried setting the ignition to values between 10-12, and then adjusting the fuel map.. didn't really resolve the wondering afrs
Tried upping the injectors cal to 0.91 up from about 0.72 and it made the engine sound more positive but then was very rich and any efforts to reduce fuel would result in a stall. However if I took the ignition lock of it would hit lambda but ignition would be at about 6-7 degrees.

[simonrobinson]

You need to look at the idle air control setup. A combination of the IACV and the throttle plate stop.

I'm not sure how the ecumaster black works with the toyota IACV as mine is on a drive by wire conversion, Gaz will hopefully have some wisdom on his settings for the IACV.

But its very common that the IACV is totally seized up in these Toyota/Denso throttle bodies. Its got some 5 point security screws that hold it together, if you strip them down, work and lube wash them out they always live again.