Handling Set Up Advice

[Gibla]

Hi

Talking about an MR-S here, which handles well, but of course anything can usually be improved upon. Sitting on 15'' wheels and newish Yokohama AD08RS, slight weight reduction to F+R (~15kg at each end) fairly fresh suspension (~12 months old) with Kybs springs + shocks. followed by 4-wheel alignment on a Hunter machine > zero toe, but of course camber untouched, as no way of adjusting afaik. Camber bolts front and rear? if so, what camber for simply fast road is advisable please?   

[Gibla]

#13 in this thread from @Alex Knight seems to answer my ?

https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?topic=74743.0

ie zero toe and 3 deg negative camber

along with @Ardent with #14

Any other offers?

[Gibla]

Finally, the only reason for questioning is that yesterday I spent a lengthy period in a car, that felt superbly well planted, very responsive .....but was operating on hugely expensive Ohlin coilovers (circa £3k+) + this car had been fettled by a knowledgeable handling guru......my green car feels nothing like as good (but of course the suspension parts cost about a tenth of this other I'm referring to), he asked me the ? has it got camber bolts ......

[JB21]

Finally, the only reason for questioning is that yesterday I spent a lengthy period in a car, that felt superbly well planted, very responsive .....but was operating on hugely expensive Ohlin coilovers (circa £3k+) + this car had been fettled by a knowledgeable handling guru......my green car feels nothing like as good (but of course the suspension parts cost about a tenth of this other I'm referring to), he asked me the ? has it got camber bolts ......

I can pretty much guarantee the car you drove was toeing out at the front, the difference it makes to that darty feel is crazy. I once had mine set-up with zero toe on the front based on advice from here and hated it. I literally turned around within 5 miles of getting it set and asked them to reset it with at least 1mm of of toe out each side. Once done that sharp turn-in was back. However the downside is inside tyre wear if using as a daily with say 5k+ miles a year. Mine doesn't wear the inners at all but I do very little road miles <2k a year and its constantly turning corners on track so isn't affected as much as on road where the car develops scrub of the tyre in a straight line due to the incurred slip angle, decreasing the rolling efficiency of the tyre.

Regarding camber i'd say -2 degrees all round would be sufficient on a road car. Camber doesn't aggressively affect tyre wear like most think, toe does more damage, however it does affect the steer ahead of the front wheels as the more negative camber the more the steering seems to wander about when moving in a straight line, especially when in slow lanes of motorways were it seems to follow the ruts that the HGV's make, its not a nice experience.

Here is my alignment below for my track car, obviously you dont want this just dilute it down for you purpose.

MR2 MK3 2ZZ track geo settings

Front each side:
Camber
–3°00° ± 0°25'
Right–left error 0°25' or less
Toe - out
-0°10' ± 0°02' (-1mm ± 0.2mm)
Right–left error 0°01' (0.1mm) or less

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rear each side:
Camber
–4°00' ± 0°25'
Right–left error 0°25' or less

Toe - in
0°20' ± 0°02' (2mm ± 0.2mm)
Right–left error 0°01' (0.1mm) or less

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non-adjustable:

Caster
3°08' ± 45'

Steering axis inclination
14°52' ± 45'

[Iain]

Toe settings are fairly personal imo.  Phil mentions above he likes his toeing out at the front, i dont, nor do many of the lads i race with. I run zero toe up front and a bit of toe in at the rear. Only thing you can do there is try it and decide what suits you.

Anywhere between -2/2.5 degrees is enough camber for a road car. You can buy camber bolts to achieve this. Once fitted you will have to do your alignment again.

[Beachbum957]

Actually, camber can be adjusted a small amount without camber bolts because of the tolerances in the bolt holes.  Not much, but maybe .1 -.2 deg.  That may be enough to get each side the same.

The real question is this a track setup, street and track, or just street?  Each will probably be different to emphasize different characteristics.

[Jared]

Mine is just a daily (fast street sometimes) but would be interesting if anyone would advise any adjustment on the settings for normal use and if they make much of a difference or just leave as is.   

[Gibla]

tbf I have been comparing a totally different car(and rwd.) with very expensive coilovers installed, and must reiterate that my existing set up is really quite good, maybe as good as it gets?  - it just isn't as 'planted' as the MX-5, maybe it's a pipe-dream to expect a £300 suspension to be in any way comparable to a £3k set up.

The aim was purely for fast road

[Topdownman]

These are the alignment settings I take with me and ask for them to get as close to them as they can.
It is based on an old wheels in motion, fast road set up.

[Ardent]

 

[Alex Knight]

tbf I have been comparing a totally different car(and rwd.) with very expensive coilovers installed, and must reiterate that my existing set up is really quite good, maybe as good as it gets?  - it just isn't as 'planted' as the MX-5, maybe it's a pipe-dream to expect a £300 suspension to be in any way comparable to a £3k set up.

The aim was purely for fast road

It's not a pipe dream.
You are being totally, completely unrealistic.

If you want your car to handle like it has £3K suspension, but your hand in your pocket and buy some.

[Topdownman]

Cant remember where I got it from!

[Beachbum957]

The MR-S seems very sensitive to alignment and unfortunately some shops just get the toe settings within allowed tolerances (which are rather wide), rather than trying to hit the actual desired ideal factory setting. They often end up with significant differences from side to side, which is not great. Many don't even check camber as it is "not adjustable"

We experimented a lot with basically stock suspension for street and "energetic" back roads. The only suspension change was to go to Koni inserts which work better than the KYB. We ended with the cambers matching side to side and at the max negative possible with the play in the mounts, which came out at -.7 deg front and -.8 deg rear. We ran 0 toe rear and the equivalent of 1.5 mm total toe in front.  With the exception of rear toe and rear camber, that is almost right on the desired factory settings.  The handling could be described as very predicable with nice turn in (quick but not darty), a slight tendency toward oversteer at the limit, and very even tire wear. 

If you want more "planted", you may need to go a bit stiffer.  We are now running H&R springs with Koni, stock rear bar and whiteline front bar set soft, which lowers about 1".  Camber without camber bolts came out at -1.2 front and -1.5 rear.  Front toe was still 1.5 mm toe in, but we added some rear toe in at 1.5 mm.  Handling feel was about the same with noticeably sharper turn in and responses and feels more "planted".  This setup tends to understeer slightly when pushed hard, which is more predictable on the street. We do see an increase in tire wear on the inside of the tread in the rear from the slightly more negative camber. 

At one point we ran more negative front camber at -2 deg.  Very nice turn in, but a bit "darty" especially on rough cambered roads.

A friend went another direction to find his ideal street setup with various coilovers, from custom valved, to KW, and finally to a custom set using Koni inserts.  He ran a variety of spring rates and alignment settings.  His final settings were just slightly stiffer than the H&R and toe and camber (with camber bolts) very close to ours

We made other changes such as tires and wheels, but the question was about alignment.

[Zxrob]

I'll have to dig out my alignment, but from what I can remember, I had it set up pretty moderate, for quick road blasts and the odd trackday,

My set up consists of

BC coilovers
Whiteline font and rear anti roll bars
Front strut brace
Centre under body brace
Lowered via coilovers

For my use, I think the little thing handles very well, fun, planted and not too scary when pushing it.

I would suggest that should I do more trackdays, I would re-look at the alignment, but for now, I,m more than happy.

Rob

[tets]

I've messed with mine a bit this year and I need to recheck but I think I'm at a degree of toe out front, too much toe in rear but it does rotate really well, -2 degrees front camber and -2.5 degrees rear
Tein coilovers, whiteline front and rear on mid settings, strut brace, lower centre brace, polybushed etc

I was told not to have the rear anti roll bars on anything but full soft although I can mess with the suspension settings on the dash and find softer settings (and I'm only on 3 & 5 springs) work really well.
I'm considering stiffening the anti roll bars and softening the settings.
I did try stiffening them but it was a bit skittish.

I guess with all things we all have different driving styles and if you feel confident, you will go quicker.
You might get in my car and think it's a bag a knackers and vice versa! 

[Zxrob]

I've messed with mine a bit this year and I need to recheck but I think I'm at a degree of toe out front, too much toe in rear but it does rotate really well, -2 degrees front camber and -2.5 degrees rear
Tein coilovers, whiteline front and rear on mid settings, strut brace, lower centre brace, polybushed etc

I was told not to have the rear anti roll bars on anything but full soft although I can mess with the suspension settings on the dash and find softer settings (and I'm only on 3 & 5 springs) work really well.
I'm considering stiffening the anti roll bars and softening the settings.
I did try stiffening them but it was a bit skittish.

I guess with all things we all have different driving styles and if you feel confident, you will go quicker.
You might get in my car and think it's a bag a knackers and vice versa! 

I have my roll bars on soft on the front and second from soft on the rear, its feels fine for me, slightly light on the rear but playful.

You are right about driving styles and personalising cars, each to their own

Rob

[mr9]

BC coilovers
Whiteline font and rear anti roll bars
Front strut brace
Centre under body brace
Lowered via coilovers

Tein coilovers, whiteline front and rear on mid settings, strut brace, lower centre brace, polybushed etc

Hijacking the thread a bit - I'm currently about to get some work done on the MR2 - needing a new rear subframe and front hubs (suprisingly expensive)

While it's getting done I'm planning on also

• Lowering on tein springs (already got KYB dampers that only have 30k on them so reusing)  - replacing top mounts while in there
• Polybushing to replace all the worn rubber
• adding whiteline ARBS to be able to play around with the balance to my liking and replace rusty stock bars

Getting it all done at once adds up to the about the cars value (in addition to money on the exhaust + new headlights) - so before I do that I'm wondering if you two or anyone else thinks any of these changes weren't worth the money?

Are camber bolts worth it?


One day I might finally make it to a track - but this is mainly for weekend dicking about and acting as a backup second car.

[Zxrob]

Hijacking the thread a bit - I'm currently about to get some work done on the MR2 - needing a new rear subframe and front hubs (suprisingly expensive)

While it's getting done I'm planning on also

• Lowering on tein springs (already got KYB dampers that only have 30k on them so reusing)  - replacing top mounts while in there
• Polybushing to replace all the work rubber
• adding whiteline ARBS to be able to play around with the balance to my liking

Getting it all done at once adds up to the about the cars value (in addition to money on the exhaust + new headlights) - so before I do that I'm wondering if you two or anyone else thinks any of these changes weren't worth the money?

Are camber bolts worth it?


One day I might finally make it to a track - but this is mainly for weekend dicking about and acting as a backup second car.

Having coilovers, I dont need camber bolts on the front as they are adjustable for camber, I have a set for the rear, not felt the urge to put them on yet, obviously, they give you that adjustment should you require it.

Cheers Rob

[Iain]

Hijacking the thread a bit - I'm currently about to get some work done on the MR2 - needing a new rear subframe and front hubs (suprisingly expensive)

While it's getting done I'm planning on also

• Lowering on tein springs (already got KYB dampers that only have 30k on them so reusing)  - replacing top mounts while in there
• Polybushing to replace all the work rubber
• adding whiteline ARBS to be able to play around with the balance to my liking

Getting it all done at once adds up to the about the cars value (in addition to money on the exhaust + new headlights) - so before I do that I'm wondering if you two or anyone else thinks any of these changes weren't worth the money?

Are camber bolts worth it?


One day I might finally make it to a track - but this is mainly for weekend dicking about and acting as a backup second car.

No need to add camber bolts on a road car.

[Beachbum957]

Lowering will result in slightly increased negative camber just from the geometry.  We got -1.2 front and -1.5 rear without bolts after lowering a similar amount to the Tein springs sold in the UK and Europe. The Tein springs in the US are different. I think you may find the KYB struts are a little light on rebound damping with stiffer springs.  They are OK, but we found Koni inserts worked much better.

[Gaz mr-s]

I wouldn't fit Teins on 30k mile dampers.  Some think Eibach are more compliant.  (maker of the TTE springs)

[tets]

as above but I'd spend money on tyres - the 6 ish square inch per corner that keeps you on the black stuff!