Ok my rear engine mount is looking a bit worse for wear and was going to try the diy fix which I read about on here to fill it with tiger seal :)...however I spotted someone on SC talking about fitting the Lotus Elise/Exige engine mount inserts from Powerflex into there roadster, they share the same front and back engine mounts so of course it makes sense but Powerflex don't list for the MR2/Spyder etc for some reason. I had a search on here but couldn't find anyone that had done it so started this thread for info.
Im concerned about getting too much harshness from fitting them which some in lotus world report can be a issue. most say it settles down though and hardly noticeable so ive picked some up off ebay this morning and hope to get them fitted next week once they arrive, im back on track at Oulton park on 18th June so hopefully I can get them in time to stiffen things up.
Below is link to them on Powerflex site for those interested and link to SC thread which has video showing engine movement etc..
Front motor mount - https://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/111R+Front+Engine+Mount+Insert/1499.html
Rear motor mount - https://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/111R+Rear+Engine+Mount+Insert/1498.html
SC thread - https://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?153679-Lotus-elise-s2-engine-mount-inserts
Once I get them in I will report back, hopefully help the shifting issue I had at 3sisters track a few weeks ago, basically long right hand bend flat out in 2nd and need 3rd mid bend but struggled to shift into 3rd fast, had to ease of gas and take my time with shift and it went in ok so not ideal for a sprint event where it cost me time, fast shifting it just wouldn't go and not sure if it was me or due to engine at angle due to soft mount causing it, never had a shift issue on car previous and box is smooth and shifts very well all other times it was just hat day on that track, im back there in july so will get to try I guess.
Ian
Carolyn did me some Tiger Sealed mounts. So far I've only installer the rear one but it has made a world of difference with little to no added cabin vibration. Gear shifts are crisp as could be.
Together with the engine damper, I can switch gears up and down without any jolt at all.
Couple of questions out of curiosity, bearing in mind the price and what I paid for polybushes.
They're listed as 2zz so do both engines share the same mount? Sounds like a noob question and can't believe I'm asking it but it's never occurred.
Secondly are you going to reclaim the inner sleeves from your existing mounts or do you need to buy them separately?
Look like a good buy for the money if you can make them work though.[emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just realised something. And I might be wrong so please don't take this for a fact;
Which one of th polybush manufacturers was a bit.. Er..lower quality? Was it these guys or SuperPro?
I vaguely recall PowerFlex being a bit "meh"
Quote from: shnazzle on June 8, 2019, 10:56
Just realised something. And I might be wrong so please don't take this for a fact;
Which one of th polybush manufacturers was a bit.. Er..lower quality? Was it these guys or SuperPro?
I vaguely recall PowerFlex being a bit "meh"
This is something ive been trying to figure out.
Superpro, powerflex and polybush all market themselves as the best in some way, all seem to have people who swear by them and likewise some people who swear never to use them again, but i have also seen comments from people who have tried them all and have not had problems with any of them!
Not much help i know!
But they're one of the leading names and have been around for years, so must be doing something right?
http://www.brooks-brd.co.uk/products.html
I had a link saved for the above, someone on here (Dan944?) got some engine mounts from there.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 8, 2019, 10:51
Couple of questions out of curiosity, bearing in mind the price and what I paid for polybushes.
They're listed as 2zz so do both engines share the same mount? Sounds like a noob question and can't believe I'm asking it but it's never occurred.
Secondly are you going to reclaim the inner sleeves from your existing mounts or do you need to buy them separately?
Look like a good buy for the money if you can make them work though.[emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes mounts are basically same on both 1zz & 2zz, not looked into if they are exactly the same in every way like rubber hardness etc but basics are, these inserts slot into the gaps on the mount so no need to gut them or press anything out etc, they have be proven to fit into 1zz mounts on SC thread and im sure they will be fine, I can always mod them slightly if needed but don't think it will be a problem :D
Quote from: shnazzle on June 8, 2019, 10:56
Just realised something. And I might be wrong so please don't take this for a fact;
Which one of th polybush manufacturers was a bit.. Er..lower quality? Was it these guys or SuperPro?
I vaguely recall PowerFlex being a bit "meh"
Yes powerflex have been known to be a bit poor for suspension bushes etc in the past and not sure if they have improved or not, Superpro are meant to be a lot more refined product and who I would use for suspension bushes for sure, however for these inserts im sure they wil be fine from powerflex as after all they are only void filling on the engine mounts and I will do the rear mount first as that looks worst and see how it feels before doing front.
Quote from: thetyrant on June 8, 2019, 12:25
Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 8, 2019, 10:51
Couple of questions out of curiosity, bearing in mind the price and what I paid for polybushes.
They're listed as 2zz so do both engines share the same mount? Sounds like a noob question and can't believe I'm asking it but it's never occurred.
Secondly are you going to reclaim the inner sleeves from your existing mounts or do you need to buy them separately?
Look like a good buy for the money if you can make them work though.[emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes mounts are basically same on both 1zz & 2zz, not looked into if they are exactly the same in every way like rubber hardness etc but basics are, these inserts slot into the gaps on the mount so no need to gut them or press anything out etc, they have be proven to fit into 1zz mounts on SC thread and im sure they will be fine, I can always mod them slightly if needed but don't think it will be a problem :D
Aaah, I didn't grasp the concept, I thought they were replacement mounts but now I realise how they work I don't feel too bad for paying for full replacements..[emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Inserts are a good compromise for road cars usually giving improved support without causing too much extra NVH, ive fitted them to subframe mounts on my bmw as they are very wobbly without them
Not sure if below link will work but it shows the insert being offered upto the engine mount so people can see how it fits.
(https://www.spyderchat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69965&d=1559249194)
I really liked my Kirk's inserts.
Removed the rear mount yesterday to see how bad it was, its not terrible but there is some splits starting so be good to get the inserts in there see how it feels and stop any further degrading.
I noticed the centre bolt on rear mount goes through a slotted hole in the bracket with quite a range of adjustment which of course affects engine/gbox/driveshaft angles etc, is there specific position it should be in ?
Ian
Rear mount insert has arrived so should get those in tonight all being well, i bought front mounting insert from different seller so hopefully that turns up later this week.
Ive still not been able to find anything about factory spec regards the position of centre fixing bolt in the slot on mountings though :( if i dont get a definite workshop manual answer will just go with my best guess :)
Quote from: thetyrant on June 10, 2019, 11:54Removed the rear mount yesterday to see how bad it was, its not terrible but there is some splits starting so be good to get the inserts in there see how it feels and stop any further degrading.
I noticed the centre bolt on rear mount goes through a slotted hole in the bracket with quite a range of adjustment which of course affects engine/gbox/driveshaft angles etc, is there specific position it should be in ?
Ian
Do you have a pic of the slotted section? I don't remember it... I can have a look in the manual when I get home if you want.
Concerning the rear mount, the manual states "Be sure to tighten the bolt at the upper end of slot."
Quote from: jvanzyl on June 11, 2019, 11:57Do you have a pic of the slotted section? I don't remember it... I can have a look in the manual when I get home if you want.
Its the centre bolt through the mounting that holds it to the bracket, basically the bracket has a slot that this bolt goes in rather than a hole, its same on both front and rear engine mounts. I will take some pictures later.
If you get chance to look in manual that would be good.
Quote from: Beachbum957 on June 11, 2019, 13:44Concerning the rear mount, the manual states "Be sure to tighten the bolt at the upper end of slot."
That is good info thanks, is it same for the front mounting ?
Cheers
Ian
Ok rear mount inserts fitted last night, once mount is off car the inserts slipped into place easily enough but its a tight squeeze getting mount back into the bracket on engine due to extra width with inserts but wiggled in easy enough by hand no drama.
I can confirm fitting these makes the engine a lot more rigidly supported even with just rear ones done, makes throttle feel more direct action and shifting felt good as well but then I never really had a problem on road with that anyhows, but and it could be a big but for some is that the downside is a lot more NVH in the cabin and sounded like I had fitted a sports exhaust!, worst when just setting off around 1000-1500rpm or so when its not nice and vibration in car but I expected this and many find this settles down with some time so we will see, once on the move its not bad though and only really noticeable when revving hard and also on overrun as you lift off at high revs, ive always been quite impressed with lack of trim rattles in my car for a cabrio but with these fitted there is quite a few more!, again this should settle down with some time and if not I may consider shaving the inserts a touch to reduce NVH, certainly wont be fitting the front mount inserts until rear settles down or I get used to it.
I am happy with them ?.... well the car feels more race car/responsive with them and had a really good hard run up hartside pass which is lovely smooth/twisty few miles of climbing tarmac and the car was epic!, although mainly down to suspension mods since my last run up there but mounts did make things feel more solid and responsive, I will run them for couple of weeks and trackday next week to see how they go, if NVH doesn't reduce I may consider shaving or drilling them to try and help with that, after all its a still mostly a road car so don't want it too harsh!
Took a couple of pics as below.
Kit and mount ready to come together!
(http://www.carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2-powerflex1.jpg)
All slotted together ready to go back on...
(http://www.carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2-powerflex2.jpg)
Back on car to show slotted hole etc...
(http://www.carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2-powerflex3.jpg)
I think mine took about 50 miles to settle in... great pics by the way, very helpful!
Quote from: jvanzyl on June 12, 2019, 08:50I think mine took about 50 miles to settle in... great pics by the way, very helpful!
Good to hear, do you have the same inserts or complete PU bushes ?
I think main issue with NVH on these is caused by them being so tight in the bracket from engine, this means that pretty much all vibration is transmitted from engine into crossmember/rest of car through the PU insert, rather than just filling the voids in the rubber mounting to reduce its movement which is all im after, i think design could be improved in this area as presume its only so thick there to try and hold the little lugs that go into mounting in place, however as its squashed when you tighten the centre bolt up it actually moves them out a touch.
If it doesnt settle down enough for me then first thing i will do is modify the insert so its not clamped so tight in the bracket, either by shaving the insert in this area or maybe using washer on centre bolt between bush centre and bracket to open the bracket up a touch so its only touching in centre like oem, both would work to improve NVH im sure.
I like the fact this mod is fully reversible unlike filling mount with Tigerseal or fitting a full PU insert/mount.
I have brand new front and rear engine mounts plus the PU inserts - they are black though... not sure if it's a different grade. Got them from the US.
I had these fitted to my old VX220 (rear mount only). The harshness got better after a few miles but still not something I would put on a road only car.
OK i had a spare hour at work today so set about modding the inserts for what i think is a better fit and will get some pics up soon, first one isnt so pretty but 2nd one once i got knack of working with PU is a bit tider.
Basically i removed the big overhang lip on outer edge then reduced the thickness of insert by approx 2.5mm so they are just about flush with the metal tube that runs through centre of engine mount, as the inserts come they are proud of this tube by approx 2.5mm which has to be squashed up when you tighten the centre bolt.
Now they should be snug but not tight when i slot it into the bracket on car, you could already see on insert where the bracket had been digging into it due to being clamped up tight, fingers crossed these mods will give me less harshness but still help stiffen the mount and support engine better as it is filling the voids in the rubber nicely :)
Ian
OK few pics of my modifications..
First up the witness mark showing where its be squished by the bracket, you could just remove this area but i dont have tooling for my mill to do this so just removed thickness all over with chop saw and linisher to finish, i dont think it will cause any problems being thinner here.
(http://carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2-powerflexmark.jpg)
Next some comparisons of both original and after mods.
(http://carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2-powerflexcompare1.jpg)
(http://carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2-powerflexcompare2.jpg)
Quick road test last night and its done exactly what i wanted, i would say 50% reduction in NVH transmitted into the cabin yet still retaining the same sort of improved/sharp feeling coming on and off the throttle, will run like this for a few days see how it goes and i have a trackday next week to test a bit harder, if all ok will fit the front mount inserts and mod the same if i think its needed. :)
Much happier now :D
Interesting.. I must say the vibration has died down significantly in my setup, but if I could halve that then that'd be grand...
Did you just use a stanley knife?
Quote from: jvanzyl on June 13, 2019, 09:04Interesting.. I must say the vibration has died down significantly in my setup, but if I could halve that then that'd be grand...
Did you just use a stanley knife?
I was hoping to be able to cut them with a sharp blade but PU material that mounts are made of is pretty tough so that didnt work out!, to remove the excess flap around edge i just used belt sander/linisher and then for reducing overall thickness i ended up using a sharp wood blade in my chopsaw!, bit dicey as you have to hold the insert upto a stop then slowly shave off a blades thickness from it, all without cutting my finger off!...then just dressed it level and tidied it up on the belt sander again.
If yours are not the exact same insert it maybe different to these yellow powerflex ones.
Appearently they come in two versions.
The yellow, ´soft´ 70/80SHA for street use and
the black hard 95SHA for race use.
Price the same.
That is correct, i would not use the harder ones in a road car unless you dont mind feeling every pulse from the engine! :D
Quote from: Petrus on June 13, 2019, 14:09Appearently they come in two versions.
The yellow, ´soft´ 70/80SHA for street use and
the black hard 95SHA for race use.
Price the same.
huh... that might explain the vibration!!!
Quote from: jvanzyl on June 13, 2019, 16:22huh... that might explain the vibration!!!
You will always get some extra vibration with uprated mounts/inserts, it just depends if you can live with it.
Are they Powerflex black ones you have or another brand ? there are quite a few other brands of black colour ones from usa and not sure on hardness but most manufacturers do publish that, colour doesn't always dictate hardness rating and above info of yellow/black is from powerflex site for there bushes only :)
Quote from: jvanzyl on June 13, 2019, 16:22Quote from: Petrus on June 13, 2019, 14:09Appearently they come in two versions.
The yellow, ´soft´ 70/80SHA for street use and
the black hard 95SHA for race use.
Price the same.
huh... that might explain the vibration!!!
As i recall, John, don't you have brand new front and rear factory mounts? I would have thought, with a head steady as well, that set up is already stiff enough for road use? I'd be tempted to take the inserts out and keep them to one side for track-day use. It's not a massive job to swap them in or out, is it?
Yes with new mounts and for a road car i wouldn't think inserts are needed for most especially on stock motor, unless you like the extra vibes!, especially if a head steady is fitted ? this was another thing i was pondering but inserts are so cheap and my mount was looking a bit tired so went this way instead.
Yup new front and rear mounts, haven't gotten round to fitting the head steady yet. I suppose I could take them out... just haven't gotten round to it yet!
Ok trackday yesterday at Oulton park so put these inserts under some stress, i was going to fit them in front mounting as well but never got time so still just the rear ones fitted, car was epic all day with around 95 track miles covered before drizzle stopped play and i headed home (was too tired to cope with damp track after 5am start!), no issues with the engine mounts and car felt nice and responsive and no problems with shifting so all good, whiteline ARB i also recently fitted helped keep the car balanced in the corners and looking forward to the photos so we can see how much roll it still had, felt better than previous though but better seat is next mod i think to hold me in place!.
Downsides...so even with just the rear insert fitted (trimmed down version i have to help reduce NVH further) motorway cruising was noisy if pressing on, ive always been impressed with how quiet the car is at motorway speeds and on occasion speed has got a bit higher than i/feds would like because of this, now with the inserts in anything above 80mph (private road of course) gives quite a lot more noise in the cabin!, 80 seems to be the sweet spot for keeping things quiet which is good i guess as lets you know if speed creeps up, above that it is quite loud and weirdly sounds just like a freeflow sports exhaust with kind of a droning noise, but im still on stock silencer which is quiet as a mouse!....noise tester at Oulton asked if it was running when i went over for testing!...it did test@ 90db which i think is because of engine at the back as well as exhaust is not noisy at all.
Vibration sat idling in traffic is a quite a bit also, leads to gentle blip from time to time to help reduce that, if idle was 900 or so not 800 it wouldnt be half as bad.
All in all though nothing too bad and perfectly liveable for me, if it keeps engine better supported im happy to leave them in, im hoping to get down to next sprint at 3sisters circuit in july where i had the shifting issues last time and if they sort that i will be happy :D