Hi Guys,
so my MR-S has failed the MOT due to the handbrake efficiency.
The garage where I took it tried to adjust it so that it would work but they spent an hour and gave up. They checked the pistons, checked the cables, said there were no clips.
The car had new handbrake cables put in and new calipers and discs in May 2018.
They said no matter what they do they cannot adjust the cable so that it gives effective handbrake.
Any ideas? :-\
They need to ensure the piston is wound back out for an interference fit. That and then follow one of the guides on here for setup routine
Thanks buddy. I don't know exactly what that means, but I'll tell them. Do yu have a link to the correct guide? Is it the one that talks about stripping the calipers?
This is the link https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=9783.0 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=9783.0)
My handbrake goes from great to useless around about every 6 months and this adjustment always fixes it. Never changed any cables etc although the previous owner changed one to get through an MOT (!). It wasn't well adjusted when I got it so methinks they may have wasted their cash.
You can do the adjustment yourself with a screwdriver and a spanner all from the comfort of the drivers seat.
I do the same as Paul each 6 to 8 months
Norman
Yep and me! :). It lasts about 4-6 months for me.
That guide is correct for the setup but it seems a well trodden path that you need to ensure it's setup correctly at the brake calliper first.
@jim_jiminy (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25212) - you would usually wind the piston all the way in when fitting new pads (you've mentioned everything has been changed). However, the auto adjuster on these is on a thread and if you don't wind the piston back out, you run the risk that the auto adjustment mechanism doesn't engage even if you follow the routine in the other post.
I imagine Jase will be along later to say something similar but the movement of the handbrake arm on the calliper actualy translates very little to the movement of the piston. Therefore it's important the piston's position is practically putting the pads on the disk at rest, hence an 'interference fit'. Otherwise it just isn't going to put enough force to hold the car.
That pretty much covers it.
Edit
In relation to the last paragraph above.
I still don't get the whole "wind back 180deg" thing.
Handbrake off, pull everything off, wind pistons in all the way, wind out so that the pins line up with the slots in the pads, refit, pump brakes, start engine, pump brakes, pull handbrake.
Sorted.
Cables do slacken over the years and you can adjust for that in the center console. But that's more to reduce the throw of the lever to compensate for the slack, not efficiency of the brake itself. It's a stop-gap for changing cables.
Personally I've never adjusted the lever. To me it's an ongoing indicator of how close I am getting to needing to replace my cables. I reckon another year or two and the cables will be so slack I'll either have to adjust at console, or do the proper thing and replace cables. If you have so much stretch in the cables that you need adjust the slack, you have to wonder whether putting them under more stress by reducing the slack is the correct way forward.
But I'm alone on that thought hahaha
I've been trying to stay out of this...
That didn't work, did it?
Seeing as taking the wheels of and dismounting the calipers is WORK:
I note that the brakes in question were worked on last May. Unless the handbrake has been rubbish ever since, I'd do the 'pedal' dance first, to see if the piston comes out and sorts itself. If it doesn't, THEN I'd dismount the calipers and wind the pistons.
Note: the pedal dance only works if there's no tension on the cables.
We can do all of the above and each part has its place.
The question is why do the handbrakes slowly get worse over a period of time? With the subsequent hand brake lever slowly pointing north.
Simply. The adjuster nut seizes (rusts) on to the thread bolt. Brake pads wear. The slack is not taken up by the adjuster nut as it is seized.
If you are fully in tune with your 2. You will notice a slightly increasing pedal travel for the same reason.
The initial travel takes up the slack. (Gap between pad and disc) then begins to brake.
Getting to the adjuster to un seize is not so easy as this is buried in the piston.
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356)
You are not alone.
My pedal is high, the handbrake ok, I would líke it a bit lower but no issue.
Looked at how to adjust it and can séé the cable end nuts trough the console slot. Looks like I can get there with a pipe wrench to get the lock nut loose and the tighten them both with a long nose socket.
As it seems everybody goes in the trouble of even undoing the seats, it must be for good reason which I am missing?!
Jimmy is concerned about getting through the MOT. Probably for as little expense as possible.
Least complex/expensive first eh?
Quote from: Carolyn on January 20, 2019, 13:46
Jimmy is concerned about getting through the MOT. Probably for as little expense as possible.
Least complex/expensive first eh?
Definitely your approach. Handbrake off, brakes x10, engine on, brakes x10. Handbrake on
Quote from: shnazzle on January 20, 2019, 13:58
Quote from: Carolyn on January 20, 2019, 13:46
Jimmy is concerned about getting through the MOT. Probably for as little expense as possible.
Least complex/expensive first eh?
Definitely your approach. Handbrake off, brakes x10, engine on, brakes x10. Handbrake on
Then adjust through the slit and repeat above.
We do tend to get carried away, don't we?
Petrus: I slacken and tighten via the slit in the console too. BUT if you've never inspected whether the cables are pulling evenly, then removing the console is worthwhile.
Jim: If doing the basic adjustment doesn't work, let us know?
Quote from: Carolyn on January 20, 2019, 14:36
BUT if you've never inspected whether the cables are pulling evenly, then removing the console is worthwhile.
Point taken.
My teenage son is gadget expert and I will ask him to take photos with the endoscope he has on his phone. Stuff like this is ideal to get him involved.
@jim_jiminy (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25212)
In your orig post. You say new calipers.
Def new new not refurb new?
Beginning to wonder how refurbed some calipers are. Seals and cosmetics? Vs proper full strip down.
I wonder, just because so many posts have refurb calipers and still have issues.
Are they starting with at least an interference fit. Pad touching disc?
Quote from: Ardent on January 20, 2019, 15:44
@jim_jiminy (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25212)
In your orig post. You say new calipers.
Def new new not refurb new?
Beginning to wonder how refurbed some calipers are. Seals and cosmetics? Vs proper full strip down.
I wonder, just because so many posts have refurb calipers and still have issues.
Are they starting with at least an interference fit. Pad touching disc?
Probably not - but as long as the windout mechanism is engaged, they SHOULD pump out to that position, given a slack cable.
They will pump out.
But they don't stay out, if the adjuster nut is siezed to the threaded bolt.
Rather winding along the thread as it should. The whole lot moves.
Edit
in all my revious posts when i say adjuster nut. The correct term is sleeve nut. Sorry.
Quote from: Ardent on January 20, 2019, 16:51
They will pump out.
But they don't stay out, if the adjuster nut is siezed to the threaded bolt.
Rather winding along the thread as it should. The whole lot moves.
True but hopefully not in this case.
Owners often do not use the correct method as stated in the handbook in the first place
First apply the brakes using the foot pedal then engage the handbrake lever
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Bernie on January 20, 2019, 18:13
Owners often do not use the correct method as stated in the handbook in the first place
First apply the brakes using the foot pedal then engage the handbrake lever
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It seems you need a friendly MOT tester for that, though.
I appreciate the whole piston stuff has probably become apocryphal but to my knowledge:
1) The rear calliper is pretty much the same design across MR2 MK1, MK2, MK3.
2) Paul Woods has written extensively on the topic on IMOC (the threads will show a similar split as it's a contentious issue).
3) Refurb callipers from Brakes International come with a leaflet advising the piston should be an interference fit (and not to wind the piston in further before fitting).
With that said, Mum had the rear pads replaced on hers, which is still on the original Toyota cables. The handbrake lever in the cabin subsequently had to much travel and all I did was the pump the brakes/reset the nut at the console worked fine for hers.
As others have said, perhaps take the easy route first but if it doesn't work, at least you have the next step documented.
It still confuses me how the MR2 handbrake 'design' can be so poor, I have a BMW mini with the same setup (mechanical handbrake actuating the rear piston) and that locks the wheels no problem at all.
Quote from: Bernie on January 20, 2019, 18:13
Owners often do not use the correct method as stated in the handbook in the first place
First apply the brakes using the foot pedal then engage the handbrake lever
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's common sense as well. It's not a hydraulic system. It's just a simple cable and lever system.
You can't expect a cable and a lever to have the same effect as a footpedal through a hydraulic system. So it's more of a case of locking the brakes in place with the handbrake, once the brakes have been pushed.
@Bossworld (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23743)
I believe the same caliper is used extensively acoss the toyot a ranges. Not limited to just MR2s.
I believe it is still in use now.
Age has to be a factor. Speaking with Steve, when he worked for Toyota. Never had a single one come in.
Cars get older - people stop going to dealers - dealers do not hear about the issue - no design revison required.
The design is not that bad and works when "everything" works as it should. (new) Our cars are old. And due to hydroscopic nature of brake fluid or something else. The inner gubinns seize.
Look at the fun had on the control arm thread. You only need to remove a nut and slide the bolt out. Look how that turned out. Nothing like the moving parts (or not ) buried in the piston.
Quote from: Ardent on January 20, 2019, 20:02
@Bossworld (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23743)
The design is not that bad and works when "everything" works as it should. (new) Our cars are old. And due to hydroscopic nature of brake fluid or something else. The inner gubinns seize.
Look at the fun had on the control arm thread. You only need to remove a nut and slide the bolt out. Look how that turned out. Nothing like the moving parts (or not ) buried in the piston.
Good point, but I'm on new (or refurbed at least) callipers, cables, pads and discs.
I've spoken to Mr Sloan about it before (the poor man did the handbrake cable change for me) and he's had similar.
Still an MOT pass, which is what I assume the original poster is after.
But I'm sure there's many posts on here, from when these cars were newer, lamenting the handbrake performance -
Unknown mid-wheel drive factors aside, I'd be astonished if anyone's ever felt they could do handbrake turns in an MR2 roadster.
True.
Waiting for OP to confirm an interference fit at least.
What SHOULD happen
The automatic adjusting mechanism maintains the operating clearance
between the pads and the rotor as the pads wear down with use. The
primary assembly which makes this possible is the Sleeve Nut and
Adjusting Bolt. The Sleeve Nut is held by the Clutch Spring which
allows it to turn in one direction only. The diameter of the Clutch
Spring is slightly smaller than the diameter of the sleeve nut and
allows it to turn in the unwind direction only. The clutch spring is held
stationary with one end attached to the piston.
When the brake pedal is depressed, hydraulic pressure forces the
piston to move to the left. The movement of the Piston exerts pressure
on the Thrust Plate and Thrust Bearing against the Sleeve Nut
causing it to be screwed out from the stationary Adjusting Bolt. The
Sleeve Nut can be easily screwed out because the Clutch Spring
unwinds and therefore does not prevent the Sleeve Nut from rotating.
The distance that the Sleeve Nut screws out from the Adjusting Bolt is
equal to the amount of pad wear.
The piston head is provided with two recesses, one of which engages
with a pin that protrudes from the backing plate of the brake pad. This
pin prevents the piston from being rotated by the automatic adjuster.
The adjusting bolt stopper prevents the adjusting bolt from rotating.
The only part allowed to turn is the sleeve nut.
When brake pads are replaced, the piston with the sleeve nut must be
forcibly rotated into the cylinder.
When the parking brake is applied, the cable attached to the parking
brake lever rotates the crank lever counterclockwise. The crank pin
then pushes the strut to the left. The strut moves the adjusting bolt,
sleeve nut, and piston toward the left. As the strut moves to the left, it
also compresses the adjusting bolt return spring. The assembly moves
until it presses the pads against the disc rotor.
When the parking brake lever is released, the compressed Return
Spring pushes the Adjusting Bolt and Piston back to their previous
positions. As a result, the parking brake is released.
During this operation, the Clutch Spring prevents the rotation of the
Sleeve Nut so that the force of the parking brake lever is transferred to
the Piston via the Adjusting Bolt.
Huh
Jason's on fire [emoji91]
He lifted that.
He's far more erudite.
Having read the posts to this article and many related previous posts, I recon many of the problems relate to pampered 2's! You know - laid up Sorned in garaged, up on axle stands for weeks at a time, only allowed out in good weather etc. This sort of life is not good for our 2's. During these periods of inactivity rust can form on caliper pins, pistons and cables. My Eric has a rough old life, parked outside on a steep hill with his hand brake jammed on, but he gets used regularly. I went through the full range of brake woes and seem to have resolve them. Just saying!
Quote from: kwnelson on January 23, 2019, 10:46
Having read the posts to this article and many related previous posts, I recon many of the problems relate to pampered 2's! You know - laid up Sorned in garaged, up on axle stands for weeks at a time, only allowed out in good weather etc. This sort of life is not good for our 2's. During these periods of inactivity rust can form on caliper pins, pistons and cables. My Eric has a rough old life, parked outside on a steep hill with his hand brake jammed on, but he gets used regularly. I went through the full range of brake woes and seem to have resolve them. Just saying!
I reckon there's a fair bit of truth to that
Mine is never pampered but serviced correctly and I still have handbrake issues.
The Mk2 caliper is pretty much the same as ours longer leaver maybe but pad is the same MK1 is different.
The fact that there are multiple discussions on this points to the actual design being suspect regardless.
Beginning to not be able to see the wood for the trees in this thread - hope the OP gets issue resolved.
Only person not here seems to be the op.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 21, 2019, 11:59
He lifted that.
He's far more erudite.
Maybe/ very likely but he did it so well.
As to the question in hand and the various reasons why this a particular problem.
My PFL first registered June 2002 that I acquired in June 2012. Two previous owners, the second one had no garage and used the car as a daily. Now on 64K my 2 has spent almost seven years being treated as a summer only car and garaged when not in use. Seldom out in the rain unless caught out. The first four services were carried out by Mr T with no reference to brake problems. Most recently undertaking by myself. Each year I have had it in my mind to do a brake overhaul, but pads and discs OK, no visible leaks and the hand brake works. Although I do the " brake pedal dance " as Carolyn calls it. I also leave my cars in gear sometimes without applying the hand brake if not on the highway. So, thus far I have done nothing to the braking system other than change the fluid every two years.
Of course, having declared this to you lot when I go out to look at my 2 in the spring I will now likely have lots of work to do.
In short my 2 has comparitively little useage, is kept dry other than when washed and the brakes are danced on regularly and at last inspection, September 2018, were passed in respect of MOT requirements.
This is what the Repair Manual (http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/southerneditor/media/bWVkaWFJZDo3NTcyMTI4OQ==/?ref=) says (link lifted from someone else who had previously uploaded it on another forum).
Personally, no issues with it yet in a year of ownership though calipers and cable look like they have been replaced relatively recently by a previous owner. I did once park on a slope and nonchalantly apply handbrake only partially. Alarmed to find that car started to roll back had to then yank it fully and am obviously now aware to do this always. Also MOT tester who I am friendly with remarked that it was a bit weak - I batted this off by saying that they are all like that which I felt he already knew.
Thanks guys for all the advice and discussions.
My mechanic came back today to sort the breaks, (mobile guy I've known and trusted for years worked on 3 cars of mine over the years, used to be a MOT tester too) followed the instructions from here on howto adjust them. He did the work and seemed happy.
Then he took it for the retest and it failed again!
One wheel was fine, the other not effective enough. They had it on the rollers. I thought cars with LSD's shouldn't be tested like that?
The garage where very rude to him and me last time I was there. Dunno if they are just causing issues....
Now I'm stuck. New discs, new pads, new calipers, new cables....set up as advised. Piston ok, auto adjuster ok.
Only thing he said was missing where the clips.
So know I don't know what to do. He said he could do handbrake turns with it no issues.....:)
What now...?
Where are you?
I'd have to have look myself to figure it out. Could be poor pads, could be other things.
Very hard to help at a distance.
Is the nipple on the back of the pad engaged in the slot in the piston?
PM me - let's get this sorted.
It's 4wd with centre diffs you have to be careful with on brake rollers.
There is a post on here some years back that covered this issue.
Lsd and rollers.
On the positive side. 1 side was ok (passed) so 50% there. Just need to mimic.
Something is at odds if your mech can do handbrake turns but the mot guy says nah.
I sense the MR2 collective has now rolled its sleeves up.
Quote from: jim_jiminy on January 19, 2019, 13:44
The car had new handbrake cables put in and new calipers and discs in May 2018.
Was the right cables fitted to the car?
1) up to 08/2002
2) 08/2002-2007
I have no idea what the difference is between the cables, guessing length, mounting or maybe both.
Quote from: moredun on January 24, 2019, 00:15
Quote from: jim_jiminy on January 19, 2019, 13:44
The car had new handbrake cables put in and new calipers and discs in May 2018.
Was the right cables fitted to the car?
1) up to 08/2002
2) 08/2002-2007
I have no idea what the difference is between the cables, guessing length, mounting or maybe both.
Based on third party cables only, the facelift ones have one side longer. I don't know if anyone's ever measured the Toyota ones side by side.
(1600mm and 1610mm Borg and beck facelift)
I believe (though haven't got the time at the moment to search for it), one of the PFL sides, if not both, is quoted at 1585mm for third party cables. A parts search on eBay for 99-02 cables will confirm that one way or another.
I originally changed my cables for the cheapest ones on eBay and that resulted in a good handbrake on the left hand side, and practically none on the right. There was a post earlier in the thread asking if the equaliser plate was level. With the bad cables I had, there was a big slant.
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=65220.0
Hey guys, thanks again for all the replies and advice! I'll ask my mechanic what exact cables he fitted.
My car is a W reg MR-S import, so pre facelift.
The MOT place said offside failed and nearside only just passed. And were very rude throughout....don't trust google review that's all I can say!
I'll ask my mechanic if the nipple on the back of the pad engaged in the slot in the piston as Carolyn asked. I'm really not that hot on the mechanical side of things. I know basics, change spark plugs, fit a air filter etc. and have done a few bits but I don't have the tools / experience to do big jobs.
This was a daily driver since I bought it and was fine after the break work.... However what started this whole thing off was when I had my mechanic service it back in may, just after I bought her, he noticed a weird spring that was put in the hand break at the adjuster on one side, and one of the inner cables was rubbing against the fuel tank....final destination style.... so that's why he recommended fitting new cables and he did and the handbreak was fine ... that was a drop fuel tank job.
Im so lost!
(:< >:)
Quote from: jim_jiminy on January 24, 2019, 22:36
Hey guys, thanks again for all the replies and advice! I'll ask my mechanic what exact cables he fitted.
My car is a W reg MR-S import, so pre facelift.
The MOT place said offside failed and nearside only just passed. And were very rude throughout....don't trust google review that's all I can say!
I'll ask my mechanic if the nipple on the back of the pad engaged in the slot in the piston as Carolyn asked. I'm really not that hot on the mechanical side of things. I know basics, change spark plugs, fit a air filter etc. and have done a few bits but I don't have the tools / experience to do big jobs.
This was a daily driver since I bought it and was fine after the break work.... However what started this whole thing off was when I had my mechanic service it back in may, just after I bought her, he noticed a weird spring that was put in the hand break at the adjuster on one side, and one of the inner cables was rubbing against the fuel tank....final destination style.... so that's why he recommended fitting new cables and he did and the handbreak was fine ... that was a drop fuel tank job.
Im so lost!
(:< >:)
The only reason I'm finding the cables of interest is that I did absolutely everything on this thread, multiple times. I had replacement callipers, changed pads twice, and the ill fated wrongly sized cables.
Result? The nearside just about held, and the offside could still spin by hand. Doesn't sound too dissimilar to the situation you find yourself in.
Without having to do anything too mechanical, if you can get the centre console out (four screws), pull the handbrake lever and watch how the equaliser plate (where the two cables attach) moves. When I had the Herth & Buss cables, they didn't move evenly and at full 'pull' there was a bad slant on the plate. I think there may be a pic for comparison in the thread I linked to above.
I appreciate you've said it was working so they may be fine. What I found was that mine could hold the car on a hill but I couldn't pass an MOT. Basically the nearside was doing the vast majority of the holding.
Good luck
Not too sure why people keep taking the seats out to remove the console. Its fiddly but doable using a cranked screwdriver on the front two screws. Did mine before Christmas for the MOT easy enough with a 10 mm spanner on the adjusting nuts on the shore cable to the equaliser and main cables.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-angled-screwdriver-bit-holder/2658h this similar to what I use , the screwdriver bit needs grinding down in length
Norman
Quote from: Bossworld on January 25, 2019, 07:58
Quote from: jim_jiminy on January 24, 2019, 22:36
Hey guys, thanks again for all the replies and advice! I'll ask my mechanic what exact cables he fitted.
My car is a W reg MR-S import, so pre facelift.
The MOT place said offside failed and nearside only just passed. And were very rude throughout....don't trust google review that's all I can say!
I'll ask my mechanic if the nipple on the back of the pad engaged in the slot in the piston as Carolyn asked. I'm really not that hot on the mechanical side of things. I know basics, change spark plugs, fit a air filter etc. and have done a few bits but I don't have the tools / experience to do big jobs.
This was a daily driver since I bought it and was fine after the break work.... However what started this whole thing off was when I had my mechanic service it back in may, just after I bought her, he noticed a weird spring that was put in the hand break at the adjuster on one side, and one of the inner cables was rubbing against the fuel tank....final destination style.... so that's why he recommended fitting new cables and he did and the handbreak was fine ... that was a drop fuel tank job.
Im so lost!
(:< >:)
The only reason I'm finding the cables of interest is that I did absolutely everything on this thread, multiple times. I had replacement callipers, changed pads twice, and the ill fated wrongly sized cables.
Result? The nearside just about held, and the offside could still spin by hand. Doesn't sound too dissimilar to the situation you find yourself in.
Without having to do anything too mechanical, if you can get the centre console out (four screws), pull the handbrake lever and watch how the equaliser plate (where the two cables attach) moves. When I had the Herth & Buss cables, they didn't move evenly and at full 'pull' there was a bad slant on the plate. I think there may be a pic for comparison in the thread I linked to above.
I appreciate you've said it was working so they may be fine. What I found was that mine could hold the car on a hill but I couldn't pass an MOT. Basically the nearside was doing the vast majority of the holding.
Good luck
Wow this does indeed sound like my issue!
OK I will have a go at looking at the equaliser plate this evening after work.
I've asked my mechanic what cables he has ordered. They were Pagid ones from Eurocar parts but I want to check the right ones were ordered.
Also he said there are no nipples on the pads fitted to mine?
Cheers!
Quote from: jim_jiminy on January 25, 2019, 09:16
Quote from: Bossworld on January 25, 2019, 07:58
Quote from: jim_jiminy on January 24, 2019, 22:36
Hey guys, thanks again for all the replies and advice! I'll ask my mechanic what exact cables he fitted.
My car is a W reg MR-S import, so pre facelift.
The MOT place said offside failed and nearside only just passed. And were very rude throughout....don't trust google review that's all I can say!
I'll ask my mechanic if the nipple on the back of the pad engaged in the slot in the piston as Carolyn asked. I'm really not that hot on the mechanical side of things. I know basics, change spark plugs, fit a air filter etc. and have done a few bits but I don't have the tools / experience to do big jobs.
This was a daily driver since I bought it and was fine after the break work.... However what started this whole thing off was when I had my mechanic service it back in may, just after I bought her, he noticed a weird spring that was put in the hand break at the adjuster on one side, and one of the inner cables was rubbing against the fuel tank....final destination style.... so that's why he recommended fitting new cables and he did and the handbreak was fine ... that was a drop fuel tank job.
Im so lost!
(:< >:)
The only reason I'm finding the cables of interest is that I did absolutely everything on this thread, multiple times. I had replacement callipers, changed pads twice, and the ill fated wrongly sized cables.
Result? The nearside just about held, and the offside could still spin by hand. Doesn't sound too dissimilar to the situation you find yourself in.
Without having to do anything too mechanical, if you can get the centre console out (four screws), pull the handbrake lever and watch how the equaliser plate (where the two cables attach) moves. When I had the Herth & Buss cables, they didn't move evenly and at full 'pull' there was a bad slant on the plate. I think there may be a pic for comparison in the thread I linked to above.
I appreciate you've said it was working so they may be fine. What I found was that mine could hold the car on a hill but I couldn't pass an MOT. Basically the nearside was doing the vast majority of the holding.
Good luck
Wow this does indeed sound like my issue!
OK I will have a go at looking at the equaliser plate this evening after work.
I've asked my mechanic what cables he has ordered. They were Pagid ones from Eurocar parts but I want to check the right ones were ordered.
Also he said there are no nipples on the pads fitted to mine?
Cheers!
There are two sets of Pagid cable part numbers on Eurocarparts and I believe people have had mixed success with them. The consensus is to do it with Toyota cables but at the time I just didn't have the cash.
Let us know how you get on. It might be an absolute red herring but it's fairly simple to check visually.
(https://i.ibb.co/NpLSktc/0-DD2-CAD6-C9-C8-4-D9-C-948-C-1-A68109-D2-C58.png) (https://ibb.co/WFctdGm)
Re:the lack of nipples. All three brands of MR2 pads I've had, had them. They stop the piston rotating. That said, the Mini (with its similar setup) doesn't have them.
Ni nipples? If so WRONG PADS.
Brakes will not self-adjust without.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 25, 2019, 09:29
Ni nipples? If so WRONG PADS.
Brakes will not self-adjust without.
+1
That could very well be your issue!
@Ardent just posted a very elaborate explanation for why these are so important. They are oddly fundamental to the handbrake working. Amazing how much reliance there can be on a little metal bump on a pad
It could also be that there ARE nipples (there will be if the correct pads were ordered), and they aren't lined up properly.
In which case the pads will not be square in their carriers and when they are operated they'll be causing all kinds of brake problems.
Time for new, correct, pads. The slots in the piston MUST be vertical.
Diagram by way of explanation:
Quote from: normanh on January 25, 2019, 09:13
Not too sure why people keep taking the seats out to remove the console. Its fiddly but doable using a cranked screwdriver on the front two screws. Did mine before Christmas for the MOT easy enough with a 10 mm spanner on the adjusting nuts on the shore cable to the equaliser and main cables.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-angled-screwdriver-bit-holder/2658h this similar to what I use , the screwdriver bit needs grinding down in length
Norman
Even easier for those with fabric seats, you can push the side of the seat pad down and get them with a long screwdriver.[emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Taking the seats out takes all of 3 minutes. Much better to fiddle around for longer with them in situ. [emoji12]
Quote from: Call the midlife! on January 25, 2019, 10:10
Quote from: normanh on January 25, 2019, 09:13
Not too sure why people keep taking the seats out to remove the console. Its fiddly but doable using a cranked screwdriver on the front two screws. Did mine before Christmas for the MOT easy enough with a 10 mm spanner on the adjusting nuts on the shore cable to the equaliser and main cables.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-angled-screwdriver-bit-holder/2658h this similar to what I use , the screwdriver bit needs grinding down in length
Norman
Even easier for those with fabric seats, you can push the side of the seat pad down and get them with a long screwdriver.[emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do those screws even need to be there? Mine were in the glove compartment when I bought the car (with a bunch of others) and I've never bothered replacing them.
Have had the console off a few times, but since it is stable and doesn't move, I didn't put them back. Had actually thought of sourcing some pry-able plastic ones for ease of removal but have never got around to it.
I've left the front screws out.
Just a suggestion - it takes me about 15 to 20 mins to adjust the handbrake, never managed to remove the front screws with a normal or even dumpy screwdriver.
Norman
Hi everyone! I'm overwhelmed by all the help and really appreciate it. My mechanic is going to speak with Carolyn as she very kindly offered this.
Then we will decide what is wrong and what to do.
If I could I'd buy you all a round!
Will update as soon as possible.
Many Thanks ;)
Quote from: jim_jiminy on January 25, 2019, 18:54
Hi everyone! I'm overwhelmed by all the help and really appreciate it. My mechanic is going to speak with Carolyn as she very kindly offered this.
Then we will decide what is wrong and what to do.
If I could I'd buy you all a round!
Will update as soon as possible.
Many Thanks ;)
This is what we do... For each other. Go to the far end of a fart to sort each others cars out.
I think it's fair to say we all enjoy it as well, so you're doing us a favour by feeding us MR2 problems :)
I hope it gets resolved for you soon!
Quote from: Ardent on January 23, 2019, 23:14
I sense the MR2 collective has now rolled its sleeves up.
Told yer.
And what Shnaz said
No nipples is definately not right.
Plus there is merit in questioning the cable length.
Vagualey recall having this conversation with Steve many moons ago. I recall him saying that he ended up ordering 2 x left cables.
Wish he was around to confirm that.
Hi guys, so the mechanic came back, did what Carolyn said...changed the pads too and off side caliper.
Yesterday it failed again at a different MOT test station. Offside no handbrake power, nearside just under.
I'm gutted. I asked them to take a look.....They said when resetted handbrake operated for 1st time it works, but then after that it doesn't do anything. Calipers are not readjusting. Nearside cable is moving more than offside. Cant get equal operation. They changed both calipers, same thing. They ordered new cables but they are exactly the same as the ones fitted so they are not going to change them. (1 being longer than the other).
This is an MR-S - are there any differences to the UK car with the hand break?
When my mechanic changed the cables, he said there was a spring on offside cable on the plate. Is this what is missing and what is it? Anyone know?
This is doing my head in...car's been off the road 2 months now.
:'(
Well SOMETHING is being missed. What, I do not know, without looking at the car.
I hate to guess at your expense. These cables can stretch, one stretched cable might cause this.
I had such an issue on my blue car, where it was the near side cable that had stretched. A new cable did cure it.
No matter how long the overall cable is, it's the length of the exposed section that needs to be compared.
I wish I could be more help.
You need a different mechanic with a more diagnostic approach.
What does it look like at the handbrake lever end, applied and unapplied? Is there a massive slant on the equaliser plate when applied?
Its at the garage. I'm gonna go up there in the morning before work and ask them. Although the mechanic you spoke with says it was level. He did say there was a spring on the drivers side though between the plate and the cable? What this for?
Quote from: jim_jiminy on March 27, 2019, 18:57
Its at the garage. I'm gonna go up there in the morning before work and ask them. Although the mechanic you spoke with says it was level. He did say there was a spring on the drivers side though between the plate and the cable? What this for?
I believe someone has possibly added that spring on your car, possibly due to a cable not returning? I'm on the third set of cables since owning the car, and I've also replaced the front shorter cable for the sake of it.
None of these came with a spring, either prefitted or in the bag.
I think I've linked to it already but if not, here is my full write up on similar issues I encountered (driver's side doing sweet FA)
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=65220.0
Mines a pre facelift MR-S. One cable is shorter then the other. Is this correct? One side is doing nothing.
I'm so confused. I really think they are the wrong length....when I look here there are so many different lengths: https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/toyota/mr-2-iii-zzw3/14535/10735/control-levers-cables?sort_supplier%5B0%5D=10086
He fitted the ones from eurocar parts.... left : 108822088, right 108700338
Are these the right length?
The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.
This is going to sound a bit "out there" but there's always the possibility the pin is missing from inside the operating cam. With the caliper off you should be able to operate the lever by hand and see a small movement in the piston. And we're talking 3-4 mm or so, nothing massive, I dropped one of the pins out when refurbishing mine, took some head scratching to work it out as I'd not seen it fall.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: jonbill on March 28, 2019, 09:11
The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.
The underlined part was my issue with set of cables pt2. Was almost as if the driver's side wasn't long enough to reach the arm on the calliper properly, which you'll see on my pics contributed to an uneven equaliser.
I get the point that it should still pull on, but I found that the uneven length meant that pulling the lever in the car pulled the left side tight first and then after that point, pulled the driver's side partially.
I may be barking up the wrong tree but my third set of cables cured the problem. I had already changed pads and callipers, and set up the pistons at that point, so the final change that fixed the car was literally just the cables.
Quote from: Bossworld on March 28, 2019, 09:23
Quote from: jonbill on March 28, 2019, 09:11
The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.
The underlined part was my issue with set of cables pt2. Was almost as if the driver's side wasn't long enough to reach the arm on the calliper properly, which you'll see on my pics contributed to an uneven equaliser.
I get the point that it should still pull on, but I found that the uneven length meant that pulling the lever in the car pulled the left side tight first and then after that point, pulled the driver's side partially.
I may be barking up the wrong tree but my third set of cables cured the problem. I had already changed pads and callipers, and set up the pistons at that point, so the final change that fixed the car was literally just the cables.
They're definitely "handed" and I always thought different lengths? I've got a set of brand new Toyota ones on the shelf at home so I can have a measure if needed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Bossworld on March 28, 2019, 09:23
Quote from: jonbill on March 28, 2019, 09:11
The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.
The underlined part was my issue with set of cables pt2. Was almost as if the driver's side wasn't long enough to reach the arm on the calliper properly, which you'll see on my pics contributed to an uneven equaliser.
I get the point that it should still pull on, but I found that the uneven length meant that pulling the lever in the car pulled the left side tight first and then after that point, pulled the driver's side partially.
I may be barking up the wrong tree but my third set of cables cured the problem. I had already changed pads and callipers, and set up the pistons at that point, so the final change that fixed the car was literally just the cables.
From what the garage said this is exactly what's happening . What now? What cables ? And will Fitting a spring help in anyway?
Quote from: Call the midlife! on March 28, 2019, 09:48
They're definitely "handed" and I always thought different lengths? I've got a set of brand new Toyota ones on the shelf at home so I can have a measure if needed.
Dick Sloan did the fitting for me both times, but I believe the brackets are handed.
With regards length, again I don't want to repeat what I've written about at length (no pun intended) previously, the set of cables that I had fitted that gave me nothing but problems, were cited as being compatible throughout the model range 1999-2007.
Whereas Paul @ TCB carries two different Toyota sets and part numbers for PFL/FL.
The Borg & Beck facelift cables I am currently running (happy with this brand and have used them for brake discs most recently), were cited as
RH: 1610mm
LH: 1600mm
So not much of a difference, but crucially, enough difference to allow you to slip them on/off the equaliser plate.
Some other cables from an eBay search, made by Quinton Hazell, and designated as up to 2002 model year, show:
LH: 1584mm
RH: 1585mm
Quote from: jim_jiminy on March 28, 2019, 09:49
From what the garage said this is exactly what's happening . What now? What cables ? And will Fitting a spring help in anyway?
See above/other thread I created. As mentioned, other people have had bother with Pagid cables in the past. Paul @ TCB was doing Toyota cables for a very good price which frankly, if you're this invested in it, you may want to consider as they're the only bullet-proof option.
I don't see how a spring would help, the issue I had wasn't the cable returning or not returning, it was that the imbalance in length resulted in a situation where the right hand cable could never be pulled tight because it was too short and the left side was too long in comparison. I'm no physics expert so I'm happy to be corrected, but presumably there's only so much compensation the equaliser plate can achieve given it's centrally pulled at the handbrake lever end.
--
I have to say the routing of these cables is crap and doesn't help the cause, I found that once I unbolted both the Herth+Buss cables from the calipers, the right side moved a lot more freely than when it was attached to the caliper. Have seen a thread (possibly Jvanzyl's?) mentioning that one side sits to the inside of a rear arm, and the other on the outside, but I've not got reference as to which is correct.
Just a bit info about cables,
I bought my pfl cables from MR2 Ben and fitted them without any problems last year. Can't remember the make tho, anyway just sailed throught a MOT last week :D
@jim_jiminy Did you get this resolved?