MOT failure

[Bossworld]

Hey guys, thanks again for all the replies and advice!  I'll ask my mechanic what exact cables he fitted.

My car is a W reg MR-S import, so pre facelift.

The MOT place said offside failed and nearside only just passed. And were very rude throughout....don't trust google review that's all I can say!

I'll ask my mechanic if the nipple on the back of the pad engaged in the slot in the piston as Carolyn  asked. I'm really not that hot on the mechanical side of things. I know basics, change spark plugs, fit a air filter etc. and have done a few bits but I don't have the tools / experience to do big jobs.

This was a daily driver since I bought it and was fine after the break work.... However what started this whole thing off was when I had my mechanic service it back in may, just after I bought her, he noticed a weird spring that was put in the hand break at the adjuster on one side, and one of the inner cables was rubbing against the fuel tank....final destination style.... so that's why he recommended fitting new cables and he did and the handbreak was fine ... that was a drop fuel tank job.

Im so lost!

(:< >

The only reason I'm finding the cables of interest is that I did absolutely everything on this thread, multiple times. I had replacement callipers, changed pads twice, and the ill fated wrongly sized cables.

Result? The nearside just about held, and the offside could still spin by hand. Doesn't sound too dissimilar to the situation you find yourself in.

Without having to do anything too mechanical, if you can get the centre console out (four screws), pull the handbrake lever and watch how the equaliser plate (where the two cables attach) moves. When I had the Herth & Buss cables, they didn't move evenly and at full 'pull' there was a bad slant on the plate. I think there may be a pic for comparison in the thread I linked to above.

I appreciate you've said it was working so they may be fine. What I found was that mine could hold the car on a hill but I couldn't pass an MOT. Basically the nearside was doing the vast majority of the holding.

Good luck

Wow this does indeed sound like my issue!

OK I will have a go at looking at the equaliser plate this evening after work.

I've asked my mechanic what cables he has ordered. They were Pagid ones from Eurocar parts but I want to check the right ones were ordered.

Also he said there are no nipples on the pads fitted to mine?

Cheers!

There are two sets of Pagid cable part numbers on Eurocarparts and I believe people have had mixed success with them. The consensus is to do it with Toyota cables but at the time I just didn't have the cash.

Let us know how you get on. It might be an absolute red herring but it's fairly simple to check visually.



Re:the lack of nipples. All three brands of MR2 pads I've had, had them. They stop the piston rotating. That said, the Mini (with its similar setup) doesn't have them.

[Carolyn]

Ni nipples?  If so WRONG PADS.

Brakes will not self-adjust without.

[shnazzle]

Ni nipples?  If so WRONG PADS.

Brakes will not self-adjust without.

+1
That could very well be your issue!

@Ardent just posted a very elaborate explanation for why these are so important. They are oddly fundamental to the handbrake working. Amazing how much reliance there can be on a little metal bump on a pad

[Carolyn]

It could also be that there ARE nipples (there will be if the correct pads were ordered), and they aren't lined up properly.

In which case the pads will not be square in their carriers and when they are operated they'll be causing all kinds of brake problems.

Time for new, correct, pads.  The slots in the piston MUST be vertical.

Diagram by way of explanation:

[Call the midlife!]

Not too sure why people keep taking the seats out to remove the console. Its fiddly but doable using a cranked screwdriver on the front two screws. Did mine before Christmas for the MOT easy enough with a 10 mm spanner on the adjusting nuts on the shore cable to the equaliser and main cables.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-angled-screwdriver-bit-holder/2658h this similar to what I use , the screwdriver bit needs grinding down in length

Norman

Even easier for those with fabric seats, you can push the side of the seat pad down and get them with a long screwdriver.[emoji1303]


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[jonbill]

Taking the seats out takes all of 3 minutes. Much better to fiddle around for longer with them in situ. [emoji12]

[ManInDandism]

Not too sure why people keep taking the seats out to remove the console. Its fiddly but doable using a cranked screwdriver on the front two screws. Did mine before Christmas for the MOT easy enough with a 10 mm spanner on the adjusting nuts on the shore cable to the equaliser and main cables.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-angled-screwdriver-bit-holder/2658h this similar to what I use , the screwdriver bit needs grinding down in length

Norman

Even easier for those with fabric seats, you can push the side of the seat pad down and get them with a long screwdriver.[emoji1303]


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Do those screws even need to be there? Mine were in the glove compartment when I bought the car (with a bunch of others) and I've never bothered replacing them.

Have had the console off a few times, but since it is stable and doesn't move, I didn't put them back. Had actually thought of sourcing some pry-able plastic ones for ease of removal but have never got around to it.

[shnazzle]

I've left the front screws out.

[normanh]

Just a suggestion - it takes me about 15 to 20 mins to adjust the handbrake, never managed to remove the front screws with a normal or even dumpy screwdriver.

Norman

[jim_jiminy]

Hi everyone! I'm overwhelmed by all the help and really appreciate it. My mechanic is going to speak with Carolyn as she very kindly offered this.

Then we will decide what is wrong and what to do.

If I could I'd buy you all a round!

Will update as soon as possible.

Many Thanks 

[shnazzle]

Hi everyone! I'm overwhelmed by all the help and really appreciate it. My mechanic is going to speak with Carolyn as she very kindly offered this.

Then we will decide what is wrong and what to do.

If I could I'd buy you all a round!

Will update as soon as possible.

Many Thanks 

This is what we do... For each other. Go to the far end of a fart to sort each others cars out.
I think it's fair to say we all enjoy it as well, so you're doing us a favour by feeding us MR2 problems

I hope it gets resolved for you soon!

[Ardent]

I sense the MR2 collective has now rolled its sleeves up.

Told yer.
And what Shnaz said

No nipples is definately not right.
Plus there is merit in questioning the cable length.

Vagualey recall having this conversation with Steve many moons ago. I recall him saying that he ended up ordering 2 x left cables.
Wish he was around to confirm that.

[jim_jiminy]

Hi guys, so the mechanic came back, did what Carolyn said...changed the pads too and off side caliper.

Yesterday it failed again at a different MOT test station. Offside no handbrake power, nearside just under.

I'm gutted. I asked them to take a look.....They said when resetted handbrake operated for 1st time it works, but then after that it doesn't do anything. Calipers are not readjusting. Nearside cable is moving more than offside. Cant get equal operation. They changed both calipers, same thing. They ordered new cables but they are exactly the same as the ones fitted so they are not going to change them. (1 being longer than the other).


This is an MR-S - are there any differences to the UK car with the hand break?

When my mechanic changed the cables, he said there was a spring on offside cable on the plate. Is this what is missing and what is it? Anyone know?

This is doing my head in...car's been off the road 2 months now.

[Carolyn]

Well SOMETHING is being missed.  What, I do not know, without looking at the car.

I hate to guess at your expense.  These cables can stretch, one stretched cable might cause this.

I had such an issue on my blue car, where it was the near side cable that had stretched.  A new cable did cure it.

No matter how long the overall cable is, it's the length of the exposed section that needs to be compared.

I wish I could be more help.

You need a different mechanic with a more diagnostic approach.

[Bossworld]

What does it look like at the handbrake lever end, applied and unapplied? Is there a massive slant on the equaliser plate when applied?

[jim_jiminy]

Its at the garage. I'm gonna go up there in the morning before work and ask them. Although the mechanic you spoke with says it was level. He did say there was a spring on the drivers side though between the plate and the cable? What this for?

[Bossworld]

Its at the garage. I'm gonna go up there in the morning before work and ask them. Although the mechanic you spoke with says it was level. He did say there was a spring on the drivers side though between the plate and the cable? What this for?

I believe someone has possibly added that spring on your car, possibly due to a cable not returning? I'm on the third set of cables since owning the car, and I've also replaced the front shorter cable for the sake of it.

None of these came with a spring, either prefitted or in the bag.

I think I've linked to it already but if not, here is my full write up on similar issues I encountered (driver's side doing sweet FA)

https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=65220.0

[jim_jiminy]

Mines a pre facelift MR-S. One cable is shorter then the other. Is this correct? One side is doing nothing.

I'm so confused. I really think they are the wrong length....when I look here there are so many different lengths: https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/toyota/mr-2-iii-zzw3/14535/10735/control-levers-cables?sort_supplier%5B0%5D=10086



He fitted the ones from eurocar parts.... left : 108822088, right 108700338

Are these the right length?

[jonbill]

The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.

[Call the midlife!]

This is going to sound a bit "out there" but there's always the possibility the pin is missing from inside the operating cam. With the caliper off you should be able to operate the lever by hand and see a small movement in the piston. And we're talking 3-4 mm or so, nothing massive, I dropped one of the pins out when refurbishing mine, took some head scratching to work it out as I'd not seen it fall.


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[Bossworld]

The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.

The underlined part was my issue with set of cables pt2. Was almost as if the driver's side wasn't long enough to reach the arm on the calliper properly, which you'll see on my pics contributed to an uneven equaliser.

I get the point that it should still pull on, but I found that the uneven length meant that pulling the lever in the car pulled the left side tight first and then after that point, pulled the driver's side partially.

I may be barking up the wrong tree but my third set of cables cured the problem. I had already changed pads and callipers, and set up the pistons at that point, so the final change that fixed the car was literally just the cables.

[Call the midlife!]

The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.

The underlined part was my issue with set of cables pt2. Was almost as if the driver's side wasn't long enough to reach the arm on the calliper properly, which you'll see on my pics contributed to an uneven equaliser.

I get the point that it should still pull on, but I found that the uneven length meant that pulling the lever in the car pulled the left side tight first and then after that point, pulled the driver's side partially.

I may be barking up the wrong tree but my third set of cables cured the problem. I had already changed pads and callipers, and set up the pistons at that point, so the final change that fixed the car was literally just the cables.

They're definitely "handed" and I always thought different lengths? I've got a set of brand new Toyota ones on the shelf at home so I can have a measure if needed.


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[jim_jiminy]

The overall length is irrelevant as long as it is long enough to reach comfortably. The difference in length between outer and inner must be the same of course.
I think one common problem is where the inners are different makes and have different amounts of stretchiness which won't work out well.
But mainly I think if the inner cable is moving OK the problem is normally at the caliper.

The underlined part was my issue with set of cables pt2. Was almost as if the driver's side wasn't long enough to reach the arm on the calliper properly, which you'll see on my pics contributed to an uneven equaliser.

I get the point that it should still pull on, but I found that the uneven length meant that pulling the lever in the car pulled the left side tight first and then after that point, pulled the driver's side partially.

I may be barking up the wrong tree but my third set of cables cured the problem. I had already changed pads and callipers, and set up the pistons at that point, so the final change that fixed the car was literally just the cables.

From what the garage said this is exactly what's happening . What now? What cables ? And will Fitting a spring help in anyway?

[Bossworld]

They're definitely "handed" and I always thought different lengths? I've got a set of brand new Toyota ones on the shelf at home so I can have a measure if needed.

Dick Sloan did the fitting for me both times, but I believe the brackets are handed. 

With regards length, again I don't want to repeat what I've written about at length (no pun intended) previously, the set of cables that I had fitted that gave me nothing but problems, were cited as being compatible throughout the model range 1999-2007.

Whereas Paul @ TCB carries two different Toyota sets and part numbers for PFL/FL.

The Borg & Beck facelift cables I am currently running (happy with this brand and have used them for brake discs most recently), were cited as

RH: 1610mm
LH: 1600mm

So not much of a difference, but crucially, enough difference to allow you to slip them on/off the equaliser plate.

Some other cables from an eBay search, made by Quinton Hazell, and designated as up to 2002 model year, show:

LH: 1584mm
RH: 1585mm

From what the garage said this is exactly what's happening . What now? What cables ? And will Fitting a spring help in anyway?

See above/other thread I created.  As mentioned, other people have had bother with Pagid cables in the past. Paul @ TCB was doing Toyota cables for a very good price which frankly, if you're this invested in it, you may want to consider as they're the only bullet-proof option.

I don't see how a spring would help, the issue I had wasn't the cable returning or not returning, it was that the imbalance in length resulted in a situation where the right hand cable could never be pulled tight because it was too short and the left side was too long in comparison.  I'm no physics expert so I'm happy to be corrected, but presumably there's only so much compensation the equaliser plate can achieve given it's centrally pulled at the handbrake lever end.

--

I have to say the routing of these cables is crap and doesn't help the cause, I found that once I unbolted both the Herth+Buss cables from the calipers, the right side moved a lot more freely than when it was attached to the caliper.  Have seen a thread (possibly Jvanzyl's?) mentioning that one side sits to the inside of a rear arm, and the other on the outside, but I've not got reference as to which is correct.

[moredun]

Just a bit info about cables,

I bought my pfl cables from MR2 Ben and fitted them without any problems last year. Can't remember the make tho, anyway just sailed throught a MOT last week