Help fine tuning emu black tune for MOT

[jvanzyl]

Ok spotted a few things to try.

I've not reviewed the log yet as I'm on an older version of the software.

Your virtual target you have ticked on idle control is set to 300rpm, I wonder if it's trying to fight down to 300rpm.





You've also got some cam timing in at low rpm, I'd have this set at zero in idle range.

I'll download the most recent software and have a look at the log now.

Brilliant, thank you @Gaz2405
Be prepared for the EGO to dissapear when you update to the later version of the software..
I'll check on the virtual target and update the cam timing at idle.

Thanks again!

[Gaz2405]

Think I've found it.

It's your short term fuel trim.  Turn trim off and see if they stabilise.

[Gaz2405]

Think I've found it.

It's your short term fuel trim.  Turn trim off and see if they stabilise.

It's only doing minor trimming, like a few %, but it'll be enough to give you the slight imbalance, especially if the PID settings are spot on.

[Gaz2405]

I'd recommend pulling 0.5% out of your VE on your idle cells, turning off short term trim and see where it sits.

I don't think you'll be far off then.

[jvanzyl]

It's only doing minor trimming, like a few %, but it'll be enough to give you the slight imbalance, especially if the PID settings are spot on.

Excellent! Looking forward to tomorrow. 😁

It would have been tonight, but it turns out I actually had the flu last week and that's why walking upstairs is a bit of an effort.. so I'm in bed now... But otherwise I'd be so in there!

[jvanzyl]

logs and maps emailed out..

I took off the short term correction and it makes a difference.. definitely feels like all changes I make are not "softened" by it..
I put the VVTI stuff to zero around idle.

As you'll see by the logs, I tried a "variety" of things with regards to timing to see if it was indeed at the right spot.. and I think 12 does seem to cause the least amount of issues.

I tried to amend the idle target from 950 to 900 - that didn't work out.
I tried to adjust the idle ref table.. and I think it's better.. by measurement of it's sitting around the target idle.

I attempted to increase the revs and noticed that it was going super lean, so tried again this time cell by cell updating the fuel table till I was around lambda.. no idea if I now have a bunch of fuel changes to undo now..

oh and I discovered some air bubbles had some how snuck into my charge cooler barrel, so these have been removed - the reason for mentioning it is that the clamps to put the thing back in had to be undone so if ever there is a risk of a boost leak, this is it.

below are screen grabs comparing ignition timing, afr, revs, VE and RPM..

engine turned on.. everyone's happy


First hold to 2k to help the engine warm up  and noticing the lean conditions..

I then start messing around with the ignition to "check" that 12 is the right spot.. (long story short it appears to be).









With the ignition then back to 12 ( I even tried 10 for a bit). I then started increasing the revs to see what would happen to lambda. In summary, as I moved through each cell it would go lean and only return to lambda with a large amount of fuel dumped in.. this I think means the ignition timing was quite off for these values?












And then I let it go back to idle and it resumed it's sort of "hunting for revs..

[Carolyn]

The timing should advance as the revs rise.  Probably to around 32 degrees at 3500 rpm.

[jvanzyl]

The timing should advance as the revs rise.  Probably to around 32 degrees at 3500 rpm.

ok.. that's very much not what I currently have.. 



In terms of general tuning, if you have a "safe" amount of fueling.. and say your ignition timing is set to 12.

if the car would actually like a different value for timing, would it go richer the closer you got to it? So in this example, the car actually liked to have 11, and with that inputted, the AFR would go rich so I would then reduce the fuel. And likewise from the starting point of 12, if any value I entered created a "lean" condition then I'm assuming that it was happy at 12 and to leave it be?

Aside from this, it's a bit weird how the AFR value doesn't sit still..

[simonrobinson]

Do not take the tables as truthful values on that ignition table.
Your "Primary Trigger - Input Delay" is set to zero which is impossible.
In the real world it will be between  50 and 75 micro seconds.

If Input Delay is set to zero, and you lock the timing to say 10 degrees.
Then you got an actual timing light out, as you rev up the engine it would still advance.
Even though the timing is locked at 10 degrees. We refer to this as drift, as it its drifting from the target.

So you will currently have more advance than is on your table.

Pretty much every ECUmaster setup falls into this trap, because the default Input Delay is 0.
Other ECUs like Haltec etc default to something more sensible like 50uS

With 0 Input Delay at 6000 rpm it'll be giving 15 to 25 degrees more advance than it says on the table.

[jvanzyl]

Do not take the tables as truthful values on that ignition table.
Your "Primary Trigger - Input Delay" is set to zero which is impossible.
In the real world it will be between  50 and 75 micro seconds.

If Input Delay is set to zero, and you lock the timing to say 10 degrees.
Then you got an actual timing light out, as you rev up the engine it would still advance.
Even though the timing is locked at 10 degrees. We refer to this as drift, as it its drifting from the target.

So you will currently have more advance than is on your table.

Pretty much every ECUmaster setup falls into this trap, because the default Input Delay is 0.
Other ECUs like Haltec etc default to something more sensible like 50uS

With 0 Input Delay at 6000 rpm it'll be giving 15 to 25 degrees more advance than it says on the table.

erm.. so I'm assuming that there is a setting that I can update with this variable?

in other news I've discovered the "comparison" tool... the grand summary of all of the changes that have been made so far:





Anyway... tomorrow will see more "fiddling" I guess!

[simonrobinson]

If you want to have a proper ignition table that is a truthful representation then you need to get the timing light out and mess with that delay value till there is no drift between 800rpm and your red line.

[jvanzyl]

with this new "feature" of comparison it to compare the map that I got from RRR with one that had the injector wizard run on it to see what other tables were affected by the change in injectors.. guess what? There's only ONE:



oh and no matter what injector you select from the wizard, when you go back to the wizard to check what you selected you'll be presented with the "atomizer" value above.. nice.

So this will be on the list of "to fiddle with" .. tomorrow.. I mean, if it's only changing one table and I'm looking at something just for the MOT rev range.. shouldn't be tooooo bad..? Right?

[jvanzyl]

If you want to have a proper ignition table that is a truthful representation then you need to get the timing light out and mess with that delay value till there is no drift between 800rpm and your red line.

well.. I guess I can try that.. lets see what amazon can throw at me!

[shnazzle]

Also note on timing; advance goes up with rpm, until you hit boost, at which point it retards again.
In case you're wondering why it goes back down at higher loads.
Fame propagation speeds suddenly pick up with boost and you don't need as much advance.

[jvanzyl]

Also note on timing; advance goes up with rpm, until you hit boost, at which point it retards again.
In case you're wondering why it goes back down at higher loads.
Fame propagation speeds suddenly pick up with boost and you don't need as much advance.

Thank you for explaining that!!

[jvanzyl]

OK! So fired up, waited till it was heading into the 950 target rpm territory and starting to exhibit the "wondering AFR". I had tried altering the idle ref table to have significantly higher values to see if this was somehow responsible but to no avail. I also updated the virtual target max value to be 950 (up from 350) but I don't  think it did anything.

So throwing caution to the wind I decided to choose the deka 630 injectors from the drop down list and NO more wondering AFR (like before) and the engine note sounded better.
It did however drop down to the low 70's in terms of AFR, I was smashing the minus button to pull fuel but it barely made a difference, I think I managed to bring the value up to 0.76 possibly before shutting it off as I was getting worried I'd be fouling everything due to the excessive richness. I did also try altering the timing slightly but it wasn't doing anything that I could see.

SO! I'm calling this a positive due to the simple fact the engine sounded better and the AFR wasn't all over the place. I would however be very appreciative of your advice on how to respond to this situation in the right way.

Spot where the injector settings are updated...





Yes it's rich.. but LOOK how flat the AFR is.. I suppose it could be clogged with fuel somehow...

[Gaz2405]

I'm away in Italy at the moment, but will send you over my settings I had on the emu black when I used these injectors, along with th ve table.

[jvanzyl]

I'm away in Italy at the moment, but will send you over my settings I had on the emu black when I used these injectors, along with th ve table.

That would be very decent of you Gary. Most appreciated! Enjoy Italy!

[simonrobinson]

Is your exhaust 100% air tight now?

[jvanzyl]

Is your exhaust 100% air tight now?

I think it is.. when I cover the exhaust I can't hear any hisses, and it's definitely doing it's best to shove air past me.

[jvanzyl]

I've been trying to study up and read up on how to get my idle etc working correctly and it's occurred to me that I'm looking at the wrong thing.

My second mot test passed at normal idle speed but failed at the fast idle because of the exhaust leak.

So the area I should be focusing on is the fast idle surely?

Now that I've figured out why my ignition timing was being all weird it kind of makes sense now to me to put everything back up where it was (minus the ignition table thing) and focus on getting a stable lambda and clean burn at the 3k limit?



I mean I wasn't fussed about the idle back then.. at least I don't think I was.. so surely it's a matter of going back to where I was and then changing the ignition and ve table to get a clean burn (literally putting a cloth by the exhaust to see how much fuel gets dumped) ? Or am I just circling a drain here of wishful thinking?

[Gaz2405]

Where are you based J?

[jvanzyl]

Where are you based J?

Near Watford. Hertfordshire. Would totally hire a trailer and drive it anywhere though.

[simonrobinson]

You are really not far off the standard on that test sheet. It was very close on monoxides, bit fuelly, and a bit too much oxygen. It wasn't a million miles out.

I really think on that car if your exhaust is air tight, the tune is about right on the AFR's + timing then it should pass.

Just see if you thrash the living pants out of it before the MOT so the cat can be as hot as possible as it drastically improves the abilty to eat HC's and convert CO to CO2.