Prices in the current market

[bobbe]

Hi all. Getting a bit itchy so looking for some thoughts - what would you say would be a fair price in today's market for the following:

2003 (03) 2zz by Woodsport with the various usual issues dealt with, undersealed with new shocks and lowering springs all round and refreshed disks, pads, lines, etc - 90k miles on the chassis, generally good condition, receipts for work and service history, 12 months MOT

2003 (03) 1zz, more or less stock, 70k miles, good condition, service history, 9 months MOT

2005 (55) 1zz, more or less stock, 60k miles, good condition, service history, 7 months MOT

Obviously this is limited information and I'm sure there will be a spectrum of views, but also keen to get thoughts on which would be the better value at the price you think it would go for today - and which one would you buy if you were in the market

Thanks in advance!

[SuperArt]

Always buy on condition unless you are after some unobtainable rare part you'd need to buy the entire car for.

Too many engine converted cars I've seen here end in heartache or are difficult to move on. Go for the 2zz with the expectation it won't be smooth sailing.

[The Other Stu]

Prices are all over the place and it depends on a lot of factors.
Is the bodywork good? Are they stock? What (if any) advisories do they have?

On the face of it, the 2ZZ is likely to be more than the straight 2003 (although you haven't mentioned the mileage of the engine) simply because of the cost of doing it. And obviously, you avoid the oil burning issue (although I'd probably be wary of a tracked one).

With the 2005 one, I can imagine if that's in great condition, it'll be commanding decent money. As much as £5-6k maybe?

[Gaz mr-s]

You need good pictures, good info from the seller & a look underneath it.  Comment from a a part-time Breaker on f'book suggests that FL's rot worse than pfl.   

J-spec just bought a breaker with a turbo kit on it & a couple of 'fancy' bits. He suggested they may well refurbish it. 2 seconds up on a ramp said otherwise. It had huge holes in it.

[bobbe]

Always buy on condition unless you are after some unobtainable rare part you'd need to buy the entire car for.

Too many engine converted cars I've seen here end in heartache or are difficult to move on. Go for the 2zz with the expectation it won't be smooth sailing.

Ah, well, I don't expect any 20+ year old car to be smooth sailing! But yes I'm aware of the common 2zz issues and the fact they've often been thrashed. This car has a baffled sump, uprated oil cooler, new water pump, new timing chain kit (and the valvetrain in general looks spotless from photos), all gaskets and seals done, it's got a custom exhaust, and it's had the T Sport gearing swapped into the MR2 box with the MR2 LSD and final drive. Seems to have about 1k miles on it since the work was done

While I do enjoy an enthusiastic drive on a B road, I'm not planning to track it - so while being cautious I'm not greatly concerned about that

My real concern is whether I would be paying a fair price or not

[bobbe]

Prices are all over the place and it depends on a lot of factors.
Is the bodywork good? Are they stock? What (if any) advisories do they have?

On the face of it, the 2ZZ is likely to be more than the straight 2003 (although you haven't mentioned the mileage of the engine) simply because of the cost of doing it. And obviously, you avoid the oil burning issue (although I'd probably be wary of a tracked one).

With the 2005 one, I can imagine if that's in great condition, it'll be commanding decent money. As much as £5-6k maybe?

Bodywork seems to be good on all three with presumably a few marks there and there given the age

The 03 2zz isn't stock - the engine, of course, but also new KYB shocks, Tein lowering springs, EBC discs and pads with new lines, and a few other bits and bobs - but the other two are.

MOT history on the 2zz 03 is generally good - it seems likely the front control arms will need replacing at some point but that's the only advisory and it's not a big job (and also the next MOT will be 12 months away so plenty of time to do it). Would also rust protect the front subframe while doing them if it needs it - it is supposedly in good shape but I know these have been starting to go as the cars age more

MOT on the 55 is also pretty clear - two advisories. One for sill damage at a jacking point (a concern for rust reasons but repairable if needs be) and some rust on the power steering lines (it is an MR2 after all)

MOT on the 1zz 03 is less good - a note on "age-related" rust on brakes and suspension, various other bits over the years, and some old advisories about shocks which seem to have been dealt with

[bobbe]

You need good pictures, good info from the seller & a look underneath it.  Comment from a a part-time Breaker on f'book suggests that FL's rot worse than pfl.   

J-spec just bought a breaker with a turbo kit on it & a couple of 'fancy' bits. He suggested they may well refurbish it. 2 seconds up on a ramp said otherwise. It had huge holes in it.

The 2zz has been recently been cleaned up and undersealed, and most other components that rust up have been replaced. My main areas of interest are both subframes - the seller says they're good, but obviously I'll be checking for myself. I do have an 05 car with a new (1 year, ~6k miles) subframe on it, so there is the potential to swap it over before moving the 05 car on. Front subframe is trickier if there's an issue, so will be getting closely inspected

The other cars both seem more or less okay - though the 03 1zz has advisories for age-related rust to suspension and brakes, which is a concern, and of course the subframes at both ends would need to be checked properly

[MrChris]

For what it's worth I recently bought a 2zz and I also have a 1zz. If you're not going to take it on track, based on my personal experience, I'd go for a well sorted 1zz. The 2zz is fantastic in the right circumstance, but rarely do those circumstances arise on public roads... If ever.

[Joesson]

@bobbe said:

Front subframe is trickier if there's an issue, so will be getting closely inspected

Not so often mentioned on here!
The last time I recall was when a corroded front crossmember was cut out and a JSpec replacement welded in. 
The rear cross member is often mentioned but it is only a spanner job to replace and new ones are available. The front crossmember replacement is something from a breaker and is a welding  job!
So, a heads up for those that think they have a "keeper" because they've protected or replaced the rear cross member. Give the front member a good squirt of whatever you used on the rear.

[bobbe]

So listed prices for these, along with the info I've given above -

The 03 2zz they're asking £5k

2003 (03) 2zz by Woodsport with the various usual issues dealt with, undersealed with new shocks and lowering springs all round and refreshed disks, pads, lines, etc - 90k miles on the chassis, generally good condition, receipts for work and service history, 12 months MOT

This car has a baffled sump, uprated oil cooler, new water pump, new timing chain kit (and the valvetrain in general looks spotless from photos), all gaskets and seals done, it's got a custom exhaust, and it's had the T Sport gearing swapped into the MR2 box with the MR2 LSD and final drive.
it seems likely the front control arms will need replacing at some point but that's the only advisory and it's not a big job

has been recently been cleaned up and undersealed, and most other components that rust up have been replaced.

The 03 1zz they're asking £3k:

2003 (03) 1zz, more or less stock, 70k miles, good condition, service history, 9 months MOT

MOT on the 1zz 03 is less good - a note on "age-related" rust on brakes and suspension, various other bits over the years, and some old advisories about shocks which seem to have been dealt with

The 55 1zz they're asking £3.5k:

2005 (55) 1zz, more or less stock, 60k miles, good condition, service history, 7 months MOT

MOT on the 55 is also pretty clear - two advisories. One for sill damage at a jacking point (a concern for rust reasons but repairable if needs be) and some rust on the power steering lines (it is an MR2 after all)

Given the (admittedly limited) information here, do these seem like reasonable prices for these cars? Which of these seems like better value, in your view?

[Joesson]

@bobbe
Whereabouts in the UK are you?

[bobbe]

@bobbe
Whereabouts in the UK are you?

Cambridge

[Carolyn]

For me, I'd be going for a standard car in as close to top condition as possible.  Why?  If it's going to be looked after properly, it will be a reliable joy to use for years to come.

The era of being at the bottom of the market is ending. 

There are 4,143 road registered roadsters in the UK and 3,301 on SORN, many of which are not going to make it back on the road.  By any standards the cars are now rare classics. 

It's a car that has few rivals for handling and fun driving and which can offer a roomy cab and comforts such as air conditioning, making them very useable as daily drivers.

With any rare classic, originality and condition define the most desirable cars.

If had had the space, I'd think I might start buying good ones and stashing them.

[bobbe]

Fair enough, that's a fair position to take (though I personally care much more about whether a car will be interesting and enjoyable to be in the present rather than desirable to other people in the future), but it leaves me none the wiser whether the prices being asked for these cars represent reasonable value in today's market

[MrChris]

Fair enough, that's a fair position to take (though I personally care much more about whether a car will be interesting and enjoyable to be in the present rather than desirable to other people in the future), but it leaves me none the wiser whether the prices being asked for these cars represent reasonable value in today's market

I think the market is in flux right now. I think if you want one now, just look at what else is on the market, view some and make up your own mind as to what is good value, weighing up things like how much appetite do you have for doing the work yourself or paying a garage etc... Physically viewing them tends to help make my mind up personally.

Of the examples you've given, all sound like they may need some kind of work which is not unexpected given the age of these cars now, plus that they have been dirt cheap, so perhaps not always given the TLC they deserve. The sill damage sticks out to me as a red flag, but you won't know until you view.

I actually couldn't tell you which one sounds the best. As others have said: buy on condition.

[cptspaulding]

For me, I'd be going for a standard car in as close to top condition as possible.  Why?  If it's going to be looked after properly, it will be a reliable joy to use for years to come.

The era of being at the bottom of the market is ending. 

There are 4,143 road registered roadsters in the UK and 3,301 on SORN, many of which are not going to make it back on the road.  By any standards the cars are now rare classics. 

It's a car that has few rivals for handling and fun driving and which can offer a roomy cab and comforts such as air conditioning, making them very useable as daily drivers.

With any rare classic, originality and condition define the most desirable cars.

If had had the space, I'd think I might start buying good ones and stashing them.

I agree with Carolyn on standard & best condition possible (remember they are all 20ish yrs old & will all suffer age related illnesses to some degree).

Also bear in mind that reviews of Woodsport's work tend to be, erm... variable.