Ok that got your attention.
Following a discussion on a couple of points with Kanujunkie yesterday I sat down to read the TTE install manual last night.
It soon became evident why the kit is more expensive and why in my opinion, (having installed 4 Hass Kits and had a good poke around a number of PE and C2 kits) it's better.
I though I'd share my thoughts on the differences and similarities feel free to discuss.
1. Wastegate pressure reference is taken from a tap on the compressor outlet (As per the C2) This allows a VERY short tube to be used, and I beleive may reduce the chances of boost spikes as pressure is read as soon as it's generated by the compressor.
2. Every Wire and hose comes with all clips to allow rerouting out of the way of the majority of heat (you even get clips to hold the o2 wieres out of the way) every clip has full locations for drilling the bodywork to mount them. Every stock pipe, heatshield or plastic that needs cutting has an exact template with it to allow you to be spot on perfect.
3. Ideally you want the intercooler mounted in a cold air flow where the heat of the exhaust will not affect it. The TTE is the only one to acheive this, by mounting it under and infront of the gearbox in a natural cold air flow location. This is why you get to retain the stock exhaust if required.
4. Since the intercooler is in front of the exhaust this allows the fan to blow air down over the turbo and out under the car, when the car is in motion this will be sucked out backwards and will not saturate the intercooler. This is really clever as tests have shown that a fan sucking air out of the engine lid has little to know effect. This way TTE get all of the benefits with no downsides.
5. The intercooler is mounted to the engine and gearbox. This has allowed TTE to use brackets to secure ALL intercooler piping to the engine. This means nothing will move and when the engine moves under torque the intercooler and piping will be abkle to move with it. The C2 and Hass kits mount the intercooler to the frame meaning when the engine moves you have a certain amount of stress between the fixed intercooler and the moving pipework.
6. The TTE Turbo is already braced to the engine block. (No other kit does this).
7. The use of the stock exhaust downpipe means that engine movement will compress vertically the flex joints on the downpipe which were designed this way. While the PE also follows this approach, the Hass and C2 exhaust exit from teh side of the turbo housing meaning that engine movement actually try to tear the flexi section apart. While the C2 looks less worrying I beleive this is exactly why my Hass exhaust broke it's flexi joint, and is why Jay now recomends filled engine mounts to avoid this. TTE gives you the best of both worlds.
8. The airbox is rigidly connectected to the frame, the intake pipe is mounted rigidly to the engine. When the engine twist backwards this would become a stress point. TTE have solved this by installing a compressible belows between the 2 to allow movement without breakage.
9. Oil Feed and return whilst using higher quality components (expected of a production kit rather than the smaller tuner shop Hass and C2 kits) are taken from the same locations on the engine, proving if it's a good idea, it's a good idea.
10. Coollant feed is taken from the same place as on the Hass and C2, see point 9.
11. Stu and I were debating why SP have commented that the best place take a boost guage feed from is the tube in the rear bins? Why I asked would there be a vacume source in there?
Well it seems the answer is simple, the TTE piggyback incorporates a MAP sensor within it, which is the BEST way of contrroling fuelling relative to boost levels, and something no other kit comes with as standard to my knowledge.
Add onto this that pretty much all stock heatshields are retained (see my molten roadster thread for reasons why this is a good idea :-) :-) :-) ) and that the instructions are so good that if you can build ikea furiture I beleive you could follow them. And you start to see why this kit took so long to be released and why it's a little more expensive than the competition.
I'm impressed.
oh and Stu, Dan, it does retain the stock Charcoal canister and VSV useage.
Excellent write up, Mark. s8) 8) s8)
I've said it before, but it's all these little things (especially the placement of the IC + fan) that really do make the TTE kit well worth £4K.
Interesting about the charcoal canister and VSV, though. Guess I need to ring Thor now and find out exactly why they played with mine...
Quote from: "markiii"11. Stu and I were debating why SP have commented that the best place take a boost guage feed from is the tube in the rear bins? Why I asked would there be a vacume source in there?
Well it seems the answer is simple, the TTE piggyback incorporates a MAP sensor within it, which is the BEST way of contrroling fuelling relative to boost levels, and something no other kit comes with as standard to my knowledge.
Can you expand on this a little? I have been mulling the idea of a boost gauge and I thought that an electrical one where the sensor is connected to the gauge via a pair of wires (vs a mechanical one, i.e., a vacuum line is run from the sensor through the firewall to your gauge) would be easier to install. See HERE (http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/digital_turbo_boost_pressure_gauge.html) for and example.
So are you saying that you can connect a gauge to the piggyback via vacuum hose? Wire? Or am I not reading you right?
even an electrical guage has a hose that fits into teh vacuum source, it just feeds back to the guage via an electric signal.
you'd still need to tap here whichever you use
Quote from: "mg"Quote from: "markiii"11. Stu and I were debating why SP have commented that the best place take a boost guage feed from is the tube in the rear bins? Why I asked would there be a vacume source in there?
Well it seems the answer is simple, the TTE piggyback incorporates a MAP sensor within it, which is the BEST way of contrroling fuelling relative to boost levels, and something no other kit comes with as standard to my knowledge.
Can you expand on this a little? I have been mulling the idea of a boost gauge and I thought that an electrical one where the sensor is connected to the gauge via a pair of wires (vs a mechanical one, i.e., a vacuum line is run from the sensor through the firewall to your gauge) would be easier to install. See HERE (http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/digital_turbo_boost_pressure_gauge.html) for and example.
So are you saying that you can connect a gauge to the piggyback via vacuum hose? Wire? Or am I not reading you right?
Speaking from an Control and Instrument engineers point of view, I'd agree that having a remote sensing element and an electrical guage was a far better way of going about things than routing 14 feet of flexi-hose through your car. The additional volume of the hose will certainly affect the reading that your MAP sensor will be seeing, reducing its ability to measure fast transients and pressure spikes, which will be absorbed into the extra volume of the gauge hose. If you are going to do it, use the finest bore hose you can get your hands on to reduce the effect. Direct pressure reading guages work fine on the majority of cars, where the guage is normally only a few inches from the pressure source, but the engines in the other end of the car, electrical re-transmission is the only way I'd want to go.
Quote from: "markiii"even an electrical guage has a hose that fits into the vacuum source, it just feeds back to the guage via an electric signal.
you'd still need to tap here whichever you use
I understand that all gauges have a vacuum sensors, either at the 'tap' or (I assume) as part of the gauge. I was talking about having to route a tube from the tap to the gauge vs. routing a pair of wires. The example link was to a gauge that connects via wires to the sensor, not via a vacuum tube.
What I was not able to understand was the paragraph that starts 'Well it seems the answer is simple...' It sounds like you saying you can hook a gauge to the piggyback as their is a vacuum tube that attaches to it?
TTE should be distributing the installation manual as marketing material because this is what also convinced me that they make the only turbo kit I would seriously trust... it's very professional and up to Toyota's very high standards.
If the increase in bhp isn't spectacular with the TTE kit, I think the 50% increase in torque makes up for it. TTE will have made sure the increase in performance are well within the safe limits of tolerance of the 1ZZ engine.
Up until now, I'd only really considered a 2ZZ swap as something reliable enough to invest a few grands into. But now with the TTE kit I have found the better solution: the increase in torque and power on the full range of rpm will definitely produce better performance than what the 2ZZ would provide.
Now I've just got to find out if I can get the car type checked and insured with the TTE kit in Switzerland... That's my only worry now.
You're right phat - those TTET torque numbers are a real draw.
I had a mooch through the install manual this weekend too. There's no doubt that the TTET was worth the wait. The attention to detail is what I suppose we should expect from their extensive R&D, and I'm already looking to see what innovative solutions I can adopt s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
For those who want a turbo solution with set-and-forget reliability (or as close as you're likely to get) this really is a no-brainer.
I enjoyed the challenge of self-install (without instructions s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ) immensely, and given the choice I'd still do it again. But with the arrival of TTET, its the DIY satisfaction and tweakability that are the main appeal of Hass/C2/PE et al, not the polish and performance.
Quote from: "spit"I'm already looking to see what innovative solutions I can adopt s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'm already hankering after the proper cap for the breather port on the TB s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "markiii"3. Ideally you want the intercooler mounted in a cold air flow where the heat of the exhaust will not affect it. The TTE is the only one to acheive this, by mounting it under and infront of the gearbox in a natural cold air flow location. This is why you get to retain the stock exhaust if required.
Yes but it does reduce your ground clearance. I hit the modified guard this morning on a speed ramp when only travelling at 7-10mph.
the modified guard sits on teh right hand side, the intercooler on teh left so what you hit wasn't that.
Quote from: "mg"Quote from: "markiii"even an electrical guage has a hose that fits into the vacuum source, it just feeds back to the guage via an electric signal.
you'd still need to tap here whichever you use
I understand that all gauges have a vacuum sensors, either at the 'tap' or (I assume) as part of the gauge. I was talking about having to route a tube from the tap to the gauge vs. routing a pair of wires. The example link was to a gauge that connects via wires to the sensor, not via a vacuum tube.
What I was not able to understand was the paragraph that starts 'Well it seems the answer is simple...' It sounds like you saying you can hook a gauge to the piggyback as their is a vacuum tube that attaches to it?
to elaborate the piggyback appears to have a MAP sensor built in, this means that there is a vacuum source routed to it.
in theory had TTE decided to include a boost guage they could have taken tis as a purely electrical signal from teh piggyback.
as they haven't if your installing your own, electrical or mechanical you will need to tap a vaccuum source.
this is teh easiest one.
Quote from: "markiii"the modified guard sits on the right hand side, the intercooler on the left so what you hit wasn't that.
The guard I hit looks like an upturned toast rack, I just assumed thats where the intercooler was. Obviously it's just ventilation.
Quote from: "DavidM"....looks like an upturned toast rack
s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I take back all I said about the R&D - turns out they're using unwanted wedding presents for parts s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
well i test drove the TTET today and i've got to say the performance increase is great, there is no lag at all, the barest feather stroke on the throttle has a responce above the normal and the power only drops off at around 6K. The demo car had an issue today with the new clutch but outside of that she performs great, totaly worth the money
however
on my drive home i went off the beaton track and had a bit of a play, and here my decision on the TTET becomes vague. I love the TTET on the performance side but it lacks that noise, the character you get with NA, the roar that the engine gives off is almost totally gone and for me a sports car is more than just sheer power, its the character of it as well and the engine noise is part of that, i've not made a decsion yet but at the mo i'm not as keen as i was this morning s:? :? s:?
Hmm - is that something you can tweak to your ear with intake and exhaust mods, or are you saying that some of the internals' character has gone?
Now you mention it, I sort of know (hear) what you mean, but maybe its enough to replace one grin factor with another s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
What exhaust they got on the demo anyway? (must try to keep up!)
Quote from: "spit"What exhaust they got on the demo anyway? (must try to keep up!)
They have their own custom made twin exhaust. I agree Stu the sound is definatey down on mine too (TTE twin exhaust) - Not as deep as it was, but the performance more than makes up for that - rather than hearing you coming now people cant see where you have gone! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "kanujunkie"however
on my drive home i went off the beaton track and had a bit of a play, and here my decision on the TTET becomes vague. I love the TTET on the performance side but it lacks that noise, the character you get with NA, the roar that the engine gives off is almost totally gone and for me a sports car is more than just sheer power, its the character of it as well and the engine noise is part of that, i've not made a decsion yet but at the mo i'm not as keen as i was this morning s:? :? s:?
Stu, I know what you mean my 2 is a lot quieter since the TTET was fitted. The exhaust roar/rumble when you accelerate from any speed upwards has gone s:( :( s:( but this has been replaced by a whistling whoosh and the ability to keep up with most vehicles you come across on the road which I struggled to do before. s:D :D s:D
they've got an SP exhaust on it, a one off at the mo, really damn high quality . As for the intake, Tem mentioned on another thread that even the Apexi doesn't work on a turbo install, the vanes of the turbo literally stop the resonance from passing to the engine, great shame in my opinion
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Apexi doesn't work on a turbo install, the vanes of the turbo literally stop the resonance from passing to the engine, great shame in my opinion
That's one nice thing about the Blitz SUS filters (I know, I know, they don't filter all that well) - they make an insane noise under boots s:D :D s:D
How about this?
http://www.musclecarsounds.com/details.htm
erm maybe NOT! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
i'm still confused though where to go at the mo
turbo or further NA mods. 185Bhp has to be achievable under NA even if the torque figure isn't
I'm conscious that we're drifting, and this should perhaps get split off into a different thread, but:
I think once you get to very high NA power levels, it starts to get truly unusable on the roads - unless you drive everywhere never leaving the power band.. You'll have to work it very hard to keep up with stuff, or to 'make best progress' on the road.
On track, of course, is a different matter....
Thing to bear in mind as well is that although there will be some noise reduction (for want of a better phrase) from the exhaust due to the design of a turbo system, you're also getting that lovely wooshing noise on top as well, which is probably drowning out some of the noise of the exhaust/intake setup.
It may be a tad quieter, but having another noise in the mix might just be exaggerating the issue. Put it this way, I know how loud the Hass exhaust alone is, but on boost it's still difficult to hear it over the noise of the turbo spinning.
a couple of thoughts,
1. Someone commented on teh new Blitz none metal filter they had put in their TTET a few days ago, and apparently it sounded great,
2. Bear in mind that the stock restricor pipe on teh airbox makes a big difference, swap it for one of mine and it will get a lot louder
3. Stock airbox muffles the turbo spool
do any of `1 and 2 and you will get this lovely howl as teh turbo spools
Quote from: "kanujunkie"well i test drove the TTET today and i've got to say the performance increase is great, there is no lag at all, the barest feather stroke on the throttle has a responce above the normal and the power only drops off at around 6K. The demo car had an issue today with the new clutch but outside of that she performs great, totaly worth the money
however
on my drive home i went off the beaton track and had a bit of a play, and here my decision on the TTET becomes vague. I love the TTET on the performance side but it lacks that noise, the character you get with NA, the roar that the engine gives off is almost totally gone and for me a sports car is more than just sheer power, its the character of it as well and the engine noise is part of that, i've not made a decsion yet but at the mo i'm not as keen as i was this morning s:? :? s:?
Stu that is so strange as exactly the same thoughts went through my head. I loved the instant power on tap with the drive in the TTET car today, but also found it rather quite. When I roared down those B roads on my way home I felt that I would miss the sporty sounds my 2 currently has. I wonder what it would sound like with the kit added to my H&S exhaust and intake s:?: :?: s:?:
it would be the same, the turbo restricts the resonance that the intake creates and the H&S wont have any sound to amplify, could be a dissapointment.
I realise this thread was started by Mark to promote the TTET, but i think it would be unfair to just praise it without telling people the other side of the coin, i hope Heaths and my thoughts are apparent, we both think that performance vs reliability wise then the TTET is it. The club is going to work closely with SP to promote and feedback on the TTET and if we talk performance then i for one will sing its praises, its good, really good
the court is out
Quote from: "kanujunkie"it would be the same, the turbo restricts the resonance that the intake creates and the H&S wont have any sound to amplify, could be a dissapointment.
Turbo seems to be pretty good muffler itself. I've run mine (non TTE) without any muffler and it's not even loud. The PPE manifold with a cat/muffler is a lot louder.
Quote from: "Tem"Turbo seems to be pretty good muffler itself.
Tell that to my friends neighbours after we fired the Nissan up with just the turbos on (no exhaust
at all) s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
You're right, though - at anything over idle (once the turbine is spinning properly) it kills any induction & exhaust stroke noises pretty much totally.
Please rename this thread "Why the TTE Turbo was the best design yet" s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Settle in with a brew, people, this rambles on a bit s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I managed to get a poke around Gazz's TTET today:
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2720/1001330small3ge.jpg)
Having ploughed through the manual, its amazing to see this in the flesh. The quality of install is nothing short of superb, and I had to remind myself that it hadn't always been there s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
This feeling continued on a jaunt out with Gazz at the wheel. I was struck by the refinement of the TTET. The turbo has a lovely whistle to it as it spools up, which is accompanied by a surge of power that is so incredibly smooth.
The journey back was even better cos Gazz let me drive s8) 8) s8) . After messing up his seat position and eventually finding reverse ( s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ), I managed to enjoy the B-roads followed by a motorway push.
First thing I noticed was how planted the car is at speed on the twisties. Is this bracing (that I don't have), spats (ditto), lowering springs (ditto) or the dampers of a newer car (sadly, ditto again s:cry: :cry: s:cry: )? Probably a bit of everything, but what a beautiful starting point to invite a turbo install.
The gearchanges were a breeze in Gazz's car compared to mine and the turbo didn't seem to object to being spun down as much as mine does - but again that might be a sign of transmission tiredness on my car so I can't be conclusive about it.
In terms of power, I honestly couldn't tell how Gazz's TTET compared to my C2, and I suspect he'd say the same. The TTET offers no tell-tale bangs and whistles like you get with the kits (and lets face it, the TTET is not a kit). It just glides you up to speed without any fuss.
And this, I think, is Stu's point. Its an eerily peaceful performance drive! Personally, I loved it, but now I know exactly what he means about the absence of any roar or fuss that says "hey, there's some serious power going on here". But as Mark comments, there are ways to roughen the car up if thats your thing.
Finally, the big question (for me anyway).....would I swap the satin purse for the silk one? I'm sure Gazz won't be offended if I say "no", but then I went FI for the self-install and the rather masochistic challenge of running a DIY kit on a daily basis without anything dropping off or going bang s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
But if turnkey, warrantied and polished performance (and plenty of it) is your thing, and you don't want to be keeping one eye on the road and one ear on the engine, the TTET takes some beating.
Absolutely finally, lets talk money. Having seen and driven this, I'm flabergasted how the TTET comes in at £4k installed. Yes, its an indulgence rather than a necessity. But if you love your '2, put a book value on it, add on £4k, and you've got a car that'd out-perform something at twice the price.
.....and.....relax s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
ps many thanks to Gazz for entrusting me with his pride and joy. You're a star matey
Quote from: "spit"And this, I think, is Stu's point. Its an eerily peaceful performance drive! Personally, I loved it, but now I know exactly what he means about the absence of any roar or fuss that says "hey, there's some serious power going on here". But as Mark comments, there are ways to roughen the car up if thats your thing.
thats exactly what i mean, i love being a bit of a boy racer and turning heads as this little car of ours roars like a big V engine car, its great and half of the drive for me, something i'm still not sure i want to lose, mind you with a 200Bhp+ tune, i may be swayed s:wink: :wink: s:wink: