Hi chaps and chapetts
well the car is finally built now, has been a long road still lots to do, but......
we have put the engine back together and in the car wired it in and bleed all the relevant systems, gone to fire it up and it cranks over fine but no music s:( :( s:( double checked the loom and all connections and seems in good order the loom has never been cut or tampered with either.
all the dash works, fuel gauge etc, there no EML or any signs anything is amiss (apart from a ABS light as i need to put a new sensor in) from the lights on the dash
i have checked the 1 ign2 fuse checked the immobilizer light is going off, i had the plugs out and cranked it over but not a drop off fuel is going in, took the fuel pump out and hard wired it and its fine as i got fuel in my face haha!, have yet to check for spark but if there no fuel it don't matter yet s:) :) s:)
im still running the stock ecu until i have ran it in and can fit the Apexi
We have taken the AC out and the engine has had some extensive work on. I'm running out of options as to why the is no fuel, the pump aint priming upon ignition I think or the injectors aint firing but i can't here the pump at all with the ignition on,
I'm running out of things to check now if anyone has any ideas HELP please i need to fire my baby up been 5 months of building to fall at the final hurdle s:( :( s:(
cheers Tommy
I had the same problem and found the air trapped in the fuel rail was stopping the fuel from getting to the injectors.
Bled the fuel rail by lifting it a little and pumping and it all started working again afterwards.
can you put an error code reader on the plug under the steering wheel to see if anything is throwing an error?
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"I had the same problem and found the air trapped in the fuel rail was stopping the fuel from getting to the injectors.
Bled the fuel rail by lifting it a little and pumping and it all started working again afterwards.
ok cheers mate il'll give it a go, it just seem like the pump isn't pumping at all though.
cheers tommy
Quote from: "phils99"can you put an error code reader on the plug under the steering wheel to see if anything is throwing an error?
if I had 1 I would maybe time to invest in 1, time to do some research into readers I think,
cheers tommy
money well spent, when I replaced my head gasket, after rebuild, it wouldnt start.
I bought a cheap jap code reader, plugged it in and it gave me a code, on googleing, it was a camshaft sensor....yes I had missed off one connector well hidden deep down in the engine, plugged it back in and it fired up straight away!
Quote from: "phils99"money well spent, when I replaced my head gasket, after rebuild, it wouldnt start.
I bought a cheap jap code reader, plugged it in and it gave me a code, on googleing, it was a camshaft sensor....yes I had missed off one connector well hidden deep down in the engine, plugged it back in and it fired up straight away!
oh cheers buddy defo going to have to get a reader then as I cant see anything a miss on the engine, OBD2 seems the 1 of choice from what I have read.
just dying to fire it up so bad s:( :( s:(
cheers tommy
They are cheap and worth having anyway, so it's a good investment
Have a look in the code reader thread, there maybe someone local to you who could pop over this weekend to check it out
fuel pump relay could be stuck... theres several the same (AC i think) swap it over see if that helps.
You might want to check the earth connections, just one not connected can do this.
thanks for the reply's lads been moving house this weekend to so been a bit hectic gonna have a look tonight see what I can do got a code reader ordered as well
cheers tommy
sorry been a while I have now moved house
I have checked all the earths
pulled the fuel pump out and hard wired it and it works
got no spark
brought a code reader and get linking error everytime
this MR does not wanna play ball, I assume it could be a crank sensor cam sensor but don't wanna start blindly changing sensors
im losing the plot with this now, do I need to buy another code reader.......?
cheers tommy
Is it a uk or import as the odbii does not work on the jap, that you will need the paperclip trick for.
If you have no spark make sure the ign relay and fuse are ok. Another thing you can test is see if you get a 12v supply at the coil pack with ignition on.
Oh and don't give up yet.
Quote from: "rbuckingham"Is it a uk or import as the odbii does not work on the jap, that you will need the paperclip trick for.
If you have no spark make sure the ign relay and fuse are ok. Another thing you can test is see if you get a 12v supply at the coil pack with ignition on.
Oh and don't give up yet.
hi buddy
its a UK car so I have no idea why im getting linking error, would you get linking error if there is no fault code to read?
there is no engine management light on the dash so does that mean the ecu is not detecting a fault or error? I would assume if the crank or cam sensor broke I would get a engine management light on the dash?
I have checked the ign fuse but not the relay, I assumed if the fuse is ok the relay would be? that sounds stupid now I wrote it i'll check the relay tonight s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
its such a odd problem everything works electronically, windows, wing mirrors, stereo, alarm/immobiliser lights indicators I have no warning lights, there was nothing wrong with the car electronically when we took the wiring loom off the engine, now no fuel or spark checked so many things and nothing just endlessly checking things cranking it over and praying it fires but to no avail
im trying not to get down about it but my lord its so frustrating to hear it crank and not fire s:( :( s:(
cheers tommy
Are you sure it's not immobiliser issue?
Quote from: "Meeerrrk"Are you sure it's not immobiliser issue?
well I can lock and unlock the car on the fob as normal and the red flashing light on the dash board goes out once unlocked so I assume the immobiliser is deactivate at this point.
but at this stage im not ruling anything out im not sure what the hell is going on with it. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
cheers tommy
You are obviously still looking for a solution so-
The car engine experience I have is mainly from the days of carburretors and distributors, simple stuff!
However when the drive to the cam shaft broke on one car and the chain slipped on another the engine turned over, had fuel and sparks but would not start, this is similar to your situation.
Is it possible for this engine to turn over if the timing chain is incorrectly positioned?
I think the immobiliser is a separate system. When you insert the key then the ignition barrel recognises the signal from the chip in the key and allows the engine to spark and fuel.
If you haven't changed the key or ignition barrel or messed about with the wiring and it's the same ecu then it is probably not an immobiliser issue.
You need to test the crank position sensor. If that is faulty then the ecu assumes the crank isn't turning so won't spark or fuel the engine. As the engine theoretically has stopped then the ecu sees nothing wrong and you won't get any error codes or a dash light.
As said, the lock / unlock isn't actually part of the immobiliser. You need to match the following parts from the same car;
1) chip inside key
2) ignition barrel coil (sensor for chip)
3) engine ecu
Have you done that?
The fuel pump and the injectors and the coil packs get there power after the ecu has powered up a relay. If the ecu does not give them power then nothing will run even if it does crank and sensors on the crank pick it up. However if its cranking it is not an immobiliser issue. Best is to check that power is getting to the pump/injectors and coils. For instance ground the green/red wire on the pump with ignition turned on and see if it works.
Quote from: "Meeerrrk"As said, the lock / unlock isn't actually part of the immobiliser. You need to match the following parts from the same car;
1) chip inside key
2) ignition barrel coil (sensor for chip)
3) engine ecu
Have you done that?
well the key fob, ecu and ignition barrel are all original from stock never been messed with and was fine before we took the car off the road for the build, im still running stock ecu until the engine is ran in then will swap out for the Apexi power FC, I have read that the alarm and immobiliser wont work with the power FC. so im pretty sure It wont be that although never say never
cheers tommy
HI buckingham, i have hard wired the pump out the car and it works, but I haven't tried this, I'll try grounding the pump while in the tank with the ignition on and see if it works.
Hi mrzwei this is becoming the most likely problem i think, is there a way to test the crank position sensor? mechanically im good with a spanner but electronics is my downfall s:( :( s:(
cheers tommy
From the above I guess the crank position indicator gives similar symptoms to the timing systems of older engines!
If you can get hold of a decent code reader you can use live readings to see the engine speed when you crank it.
Guys missing the obvious as the fuel pump is on when the ignition is on, so it don't need the crank sensor for it. The op needs to find out why half the engine parts don't turn on at the moment, before he looks at why it don't run
If you need to test the crank sensor then:
m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ws8EVQ6NjE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ws8EVQ6NjE) m
I've not had to do it on the Roadster so I'm not sure how easy it is to get at. I think though that it is prone to corrosion so it may be worth just cleaning up the connections first.
cheers chaps a few more things for me to try beginning to think its never gonna fire
cheers tommy
Just arrived on this thread and trying to see what you've tried.
Are you confident that the immobilser is disarming now?
Did you get around to substituting the fuel pump relay? Not sure whether you're saying that the pump is working or not on the car (except that it is when you hardwire it). That and the priming issue Wabbit mentions would be a good first step to confirm that fuel is getting to the rail.
A stethoscope/tube to the ear on the injectors will confirm whether they're ticking away healthily during turnover. A nose in the plugholes will sniff out fuel and is a useful free check to do early on before you bimble into mechanical stuff like cams/chain being out by the odd link.
Crank sensors can be vulnerable during a rebuild due to their exposed location, a tendancy to attract a lifetime of gunk, and a dislike of being removed and reseated (bad design!). As said above, a non-firing sensor would tell the ECU that nothing is going on so nothing needs to be done. In that sense its a candidate for your probs. Possibly a dumb question (sorry s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ), but you did replace the crank angle sensor plate (with the F facing outwards) before you buttoned up the chain cover, didn't you?
Hang in there. Lots of possibles - you just need to plough logically through them.
I'd waiger that the exciter ring for the crank sensor is mounted back to front
Quote from: "spit"Possibly a dumb question (sorry s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ), but you did replace the crank angle sensor plate (with the F facing outwards) before you buttoned up the chain cover, didn't you?
i.e. As Ste said
HI chaps
yeah 100% sure the immobiliser is disarming,
substituted the fuel relay and its works, had the plugs out and cranked it and not a drop of fuel is getting in and no spark
im starting to worry now and think the crank sensor is knackered (although this is a simple fix as its easily accessible) or something aint right with the crank angle sensor plate, although im 99.9% sure it went on the correct way I have lots of pictures of the build so will check them over
for example if the crank sensor plate needs looking at or replacing / refitting,i take it this is a engine out job? I would imagine it is due to the tight space to unbolt everything.
cheers tommy
So when your crank your engine over the fuel pump is definitely pumping????
And remember what I said before the power for spark, injectors and pump are all linked together as the ecu switches the negative.
Quote from: "rbuckingham"So when your crank your engine over the fuel pump is definitely pumping????
And remember what I said before the power for spark, injectors and pump are all linked together as the ecu switches the negative.
nope the pump doesn't prime at all but I checked the relay so I don't get it at all anymore wish I was better at electronics s:( :( s:(
time to get a professional in I think might cost a bit but will know the score within a hour I hope, before I end losing the plot haha s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
cheers tommy
Quote from: "tommyzoom99"for example if the crank sensor plate needs looking at or replacing / refitting,i take it this is a engine out job? I would imagine it is due to the tight space to unbolt everything.
Can be done with the engine in. Fiddly but manageable.
I'd park that for the moment - Whichever way round it is, my concern was more that the plate was there to allow signal generation to the ECU.
First up, you need to figure why that pump isn't behaving as it should when its plumbed into the car's circuitry.
I'll check in a min but as said the pump, injectors and coils have no power. So if the engine has no fuel and no spark going in then it never going to run. I'll find the live wire to the three and with ignition on there should be 12v which my guess is not.
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "spit"Possibly a dumb question (sorry s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ), but you did replace the crank angle sensor plate (with the F facing outwards) before you buttoned up the chain cover, didn't you?
i.e. As Ste said
checked the pictures of the build last night and the crank angle sensor plate is on the correct way, the whole engine got striped and when the bores where oversized by 0.5 for the pistons everything was put through a wash and clean so dirt or grim shouldn't be a issue either
cheers tommy
Quote from: "rbuckingham"I'll check in a min but as said the pump, injectors and coils have no power. So if the engine has no fuel and no spark going in then it never going to run. I'll find the live wire to the three and with ignition on there should be 12v which my guess is not.
thanks Richard and everyone else for the help narrowing down the search got someone coming out tomorrow whos a wiz with electronics so fingers crossed i'll at least know whats wrong tomorrow and i'll report back
cheers tommy
Well it's alive at last and sounds like a dream, once we found the fault it fired up instantly, thanks for the help lads
Cheers Tommy
What was the fault?
Judging by the lack of explanation, probably something simple and daft. We've all been there!!!!
Glad it's sorted and back on the road!
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Judging by the lack of explanation, probably something simple and daft. We've all been there!!!!
Glad it's sorted and back on the road!
Haha you guessed it total school boy error!! Oh my lord stupid, note to shelf make sure the ECU is fully connected, and don't believe my mate who's building the car with me when they say it's all connected! there's a small black connector part of the loom that goes into the ECU which got missed some how......
Cheers tommy
We were all school boys (or girls) at one time.
Some of us think we still are!
Glad your sorted now.
So what do I win as I said power from the start
Nice one tommy !
D'oh!
Congrats on a successful rebuild Tommy.
Give your mate a swift wedgie on behalf of us all s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
ha cheers lads what a plonker I feel s:) :) s:) don't worry I gave my self a slap s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
but it fires up now and me and my mate took it out last night for its first drive and nothing fell off or leaked no rattles or funny smells so im chuffed, going to get it MOT this week and take it up the EVO triangle this weekend for some gentle running in.
it does seem to of developed a bit of a dead spot in the power steering tho where all of a sudden it weights up and frees off think where its been sat for 5 months it just needs working free or the pump is on its way
cheers tommy