MR2 Roadster Owners Club

I've been doing a lot of research into piggy back ecu's like my emanage blue and have come to the conclusion they aren't that great when used with cars that aren't meant to have turbos.  They work fine when the ecu is in open loop and not using the o2 sensors but there is quite a lot of time when the turbo is boosting but the ecu is still in closed loop so the tuning done on a rolling road is wasted and can lead to completely wrong fuelling.  There is a product by a company called Split Second that fools the ecu into open loop as soon as positive boost is detected but it fairly expensive.  I have come up with a plan.

It seems the TPS is only used to tell the ecu that power is requested and then puts the ecu into open loop.  If I were able to get a pressure sensor and set it so it switches a circuit on at positive boost which in turn sends a wide open throttle signal to the ecu this should trick the ecu into open loop and allow the emanage to work properly.

What do you think?  Have I missed something?


https://splitsec.com/product/lsc1-001-universal-fuel-enrichment-module/

You need to find a mapper who understands this and generates a map that works around the closed loop areas. Richard at Redline tuning does a decent job of it, no issues fueling for 10psi of boost on my old system and it is running nicely in its new home too.

If your pressure triggered switch tells the ECU that you are at WOT, the ECU won't be correctly timing and fueling for the actual throttle condition. Remember adding a turbo changes the fueling and timing requirements at many load states between zero and peak boost.

But does the tps actually change the timing and fueling.   From what I've read it doesn't.

Just done a quick test with another tps plugged and not connected to the throttle.   With the engine at idle and turning the tps to full it doesn't change the ignition timing but does put it into open loop which changes the fueling to what the emanage is set to.

I can't see how a re map would change the closed loop areas.   Surly the fuel trims would always be trying to adjust the mixture to keep it at stoichiometric.

If only it where that simple. Firstly, the splitsec does not put the ECU into open loop, it seems it tells the ECU that the target mixture is achieved by altering the O2 sensor readings so that the ECU does not adjust trims.

The TPS is the sensor that tells the ECU the load requested by the driver. If you tell the ECU that there is a fixed load, say 100%, the ECU will provide a fixed amount of fuel and timing for each RPM band, but that may well be way outside what a piggyback can realistically adjust for. Effectively, you would need a standalone to map from that starting point, one with its own accurate TPS or MAP sensor so it knows the load request.

From what I have seen, mappers who know what they are doing will monitor where closed loop activity is taking place and not apply piggyback correction in these areas. The stock ECU runs open loop enough of the time that you can successfully map for boost as many have done over the years.

If the mapper gets it wrong however, the stock ECU imposes some pretty crude across the board trims which will lead to rough running. Done right, the results are perfectly OK. I had a turbo setup controlled by a Unichip piggyback and Unichip  electronic boost controller. It fuelled nicely under load allowing me to run 10psi, but have part throttle cruise efficiency in closed loop far better than pre turbo.

Regarding your first paragraph when you say the ECU is not put in open loop, I don't understand what the difference is between the ECU not adjusting trims, as you say, and running open loop. Don't these actually mean the exactly same thing, that being that the engine is indeed running open loop?
Thanks

Quote from: "lamcote"Regarding your first paragraph when you say the ECU is not put in open loop, I don't understand what the difference is between the ECU not adjusting trims, as you say, and running open loop. Don't these actually mean the exactly same thing, that being that the engine is indeed running open loop?
Thanks

The ECU is still running in open loop, but the splitsec is telling the ECU that the fuelling is hitting the target value, so it is not trying to trim fueling. It will still be providing a target fuel level based on load index, but effectively modified. Timing under partial load will still be related to throttle position.

Also remember, if you put the ECU in to WOT mode, you will also lose some  vvti functionality.

I'm using the Splitsec Enricher for more than a year now, and it feels like I had a different car. Without the enricher the ECU lean the AFR back to 14.9 if you drive under 4000 RPM or 65% throttle position - you can really feel it, and it's not healthy either for a turbocharged engine. After it was installed the accelaration became smoother and harder in every RPM range, the AFR is in optimal range all the time. Now,my consumption is about 15 % higher in the city, but it's definetely worth the money! It's like a factory turbocharged MR2 now, I love it.

So do I take it that the ECU normally runs in closed loop below 4000rpm or less than 65% throttle.

Above these figures presmuably the ECU runs in open loop and can use modified settings put into the base map (load index?) by the tuner.

Below this the splitsec allows the ECU to read the load index directly, without any trims being added by the ECU based on the O2 sensors?

If the above is correct, two questions;

Can the settings in the load index, in the closed loop region, then be modifed by the tuner?
If yes to this, how do you pass the MOT?

Thanks

I can't remember how it works exactly, but the enricher has to be tuned seperatly I think. It's not that simple, that you install and it works fine. You can read about the setup here: https://splitsec.com/wp-content/uploads/datasheets/Enricher_ds.pdf . I don't live in England, don't know what is measured at the MOT, but probably it wont pass it with the enricher.

This is probably a massive over simplification but it seems the Greddy is used to remap the ECU running in open loop and the splitsec is used to remap the ECU when it is running the closed loop. Presumably the Greddy doesn't have the capability to trick the ECU in closed loop so without the Splitsec you are stuck at lambda =1 once closed loop kicks in?

Perhaps you can switch the splitsec off for the MOT?

From what I can see the split second enricher will only fool the stock ecu when on boost so the mot won't be a problem.   Most of the closed loop fuel trims will still work as normal.
The emanage can change the fueling across the range but in closed loop mode the O2 sensor will adjust it back to where it needs to be for good emissions.  Open loop mode gets no feedback from the O2 sensor so it doesn't change the fueling.

Thanks everyone, it's all clever stuff.

The splitsec unit looks pretty useful. I wonder if any piggyback unit is available that could duplicate the function by altering the O2 sensor readings on their way back to the ECU?

Having said that, with multiple units all doing their own part, a standalone looks increasingly attractive.

But don't you lose OBD2 with a standalone. Also is the imobiliser, or anything else affected?

Quote from: "lamcote"But don't you lose OBD2 with a standalone. Also is the imobiliser, or anything else affected?

Yes, you get other challenges with a standalone. Some have their own diagnostic facilities, some don't, immobiliser needs to be run separately. You can also have issues driving the rev counter, temp guage, possibly charging circuit details too. It's never just easy.

Quote from: "Davegtst"It seems the TPS is only used to tell the ecu that power is requested and then puts the ecu into open loop.  If I were able to get a pressure sensor and set it so it switches a circuit on at positive boost which in turn sends a wide open throttle signal to the ecu this should trick the ecu into open loop and allow the emanage to work properly.

That's how my car run, and it works pretty well!

1zz, turbo, E-manage blue with boost sensor, a relay, a voltage reducer.

It was not my idea, I came accros this :

(http://1.1.1.1/bmi/img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/Thirty_Four/DPDT_zps47e4cf6d.jpg)

First you have to know your WOT voltage, mine is 3.93v, set your voltage reducer to match this voltage

Drive a relay using the Vtec output of the E-manage, and try to use the mini Vtec map in order to drive the relay everytime the boost sensor sees boost, this ways it connect your voltage reducer to the ECU, and it switch to open loop and let you add all the fuel you want.

You can check the open/close loop with an OBD scan and Torque (Android)

Your picture doesn't work.  How to you set the vtec output?

Quote from: "Davegtst"Your picture doesn't work.  How to you set the vtec output?

The picture came from here  m http://www.rs25.com/forums/f72/191271-f ... age-2.html (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f72/191271-forcing-ol-emanage-2.html) m

When the relay is off, the TPS is connected to the ECU, as normal.
When the relay is on, the voltage reducer (set with the same voltage as WOT) is connected to the ECU instead of the TPS

You drive the relay with the mini Vtec map, you can't change the "On/Off" inside the map but you can change RPM (horizontal), and you can choose "boost sensor" (vertical)

Then choose what RPM and what boost you want the relay to switch, mine is set at 0.05 PSI and 1500rpm if I remember correctly.

Thanks for the link.   Have you noticed any ill effects?

Yes the pic is correct, the pic is of the pins of a twin pole switching relay. Got a few kicking about if needed

Quote from: "Davegtst"Thanks for the link.   Have you noticed any ill effects?

The only side effect is with small turbos (I had a TD035 from a Subaru Forester, now I have a TD04 from a WRX).
With this kind of turbos, you can build boost with very partial throttle, like 20%. In this case your signal switch from 20% to 100% instantly, you can feel it, like a little kick. But when you hit boost with more throttle, the transition is smooth.

Do you need to change the jumper settings to get the vtec output to work?

Quote from: "Davegtst"Do you need to change the jumper settings to get the vtec output to work?

I guess you don't have to change, the involved jumper is the n°3. It should be set to 2/3
The only reason to set it to 1/2 is if you have a second MAF (like a RB26) So it is none of our concern (yeah I should open mine to check but I'm a bit lazy today...)

I've now built a circuit that switches from the real tps voltage to wide open throttle voltage.  It's switched via the vtec output on the emanage and switches on at just over 0 psi and over 2200 rpm.  What a difference it makes!   It pulls so much more smoothly now and feels a lot more powerful,  even holds boost more precisely.  All emanage owners need to do this!   Your rolling road tune is wasted without one.

Great!   s:D :D s:D

That is excellent. My only thought is that the fast idle MOT emissions test might trigger your TPS circuit at those settings so might you be in difficulty for an MOT pass?

Not a chance of it getting near 0 psi at those revs with no load.  Even if it does I've left it so I can disconnect the feed from the emanage so it returns the car back to normal.

Quote from: "Davegtst"I've now built a circuit that switches from the real tps voltage to wide open throttle voltage.  It's switched via the vtec output on the emanage and switches on at just over 0 psi and over 2200 rpm.  What a difference it makes!   It pulls so much more smoothly now and feels a lot more powerful,  even holds boost more precisely.  All emanage owners need to do this!   Your rolling road tune is wasted without one.

If you are bored one evening dave.... I don't suppose you want to do a few diagrams and a writeup for this?, I'm really interested but far too lazy to do all the research. Like usual I'm trying to do too many things at once!
  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

I'll try and knock up a circuit diagram.  Lee, I'd really recommend you do this mod.  All of your tuning with be wasted without it.   The long term fuel trims will overrule your emanage settings.

Quote from: "Davegtst"I'll try and knock up a circuit diagram.  Lee, I'd really recommend you do this mod.  All of your tuning with be wasted without it.   The long term fuel trims will overrule your emanage settings.

Yeah, I've been resetting my ecu every few days as it all messes up.
It should settle down after I get the charge cooler and injectors fitted but this mod looks like it will help a lot too

I've just ordered a little voltage regulator to do this.

I've got a couple of questions to save me lots of reading and searching if anyone could answer them, thanks

Which wire is the tps on the stock ecu?
Which wire is the vtec on the emanage blue?
Am I right in assuming the vtec signal is 5v output. Not a switched earth.?

Vtec Output is on connector B, n°14 (Emanage)
TPS is called VTA, connector C, n°23 (ECU)

(http://nsa38.casimages.com/img/2015/06/14/150614103853163012.jpg)

The Vtec output is a +12v, you can drive your relay with it.

Pretty sure the vtec output wire is light blue.  I believe it's a 12v output too which helps.

Thanks for that, gives me the info I need for wiring.

I just need to look at the emanage now and figure that bit out. Not played with the vtec bit but got an idea from reading dave's previous posts.

Thanks

 s:D :D s:D  I've just got my voltage regulator delivered today so I will do this tomorrow.
I was looking at the diagram on the previous link and there is no reason at all for a dual pole relay, they have unnecessarily complicated it. It only needs one pole. The ecu is being switched between 2 signals, true tps, fake tps.
so it makes sense to use a normal 5 pin relay. Ecu on common, true tps on nc. Fake tps on no. With the vtec switching the coil. I have no idea why they complicated the wiring but hey.   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Mod fitted,

Dave, you were right.. Now I have no lean spots when it's floating in and out of boost. Hills etc.
Feels more responsive, no ecu arguing.

Feel stupid for being lazy and not doing it sooner   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Good work mate. Mine has been perfect since I made one for my car.   I recommend everyone with q piggyback to do this mod.

Ahoi. I've ordered a voltage reducer with lcd screen and I've got  a handful of relays lying around.
Which one of these would be suitable and which wire goes where?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161208/651d2d5ccb0f5e31650856f07b30e503.jpg)

So I've got:

12v vtec switches relay between voltage regulator output and tps sensor output.

So the voltage reducer needs 5v in and output whatever WOT is?

Any wiring pics would be great.

I've seen reference to it being 3.93v at 100% TPS (Edit:) on the 1zz.

Ummm... Complete novice here but I think Lee mentioned to me that every cars Wot voltage is different....

Yeah that's taken into consideration  s:) :) s:)  

VTEC output from EMB mapped to pass 12v at say 2500rpm and 70% tps or something.

12v goes into switch that I can turn off if necessary for MOT.
If on, 12v powers coil in relay and switches the tps input from the standard output, to the voltage regulator.

Voltage regulator then pushes through WOT voltage regardless.

... And I've just realised the above is wrong because if tps is < WOT its never going to output WOT voltage is it?
Darn gammit!

Ah I see the errors of my ways. Need to ground the output from the voltage reducer and feed it with 12v and close the circuit with a ground from the relay

Have you seen this?

 m http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showth ... -open-loop (http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?54945-Exact-conditions-that-trigger-open-loop) m

Do you need the eManage Ultimate to do Clamping? If so, I'm coming to the conclusion that you're really better off with the Ultimate for naturally aspirated engines. The Blue is probably OK for a simple turbo/super charged set up.

I'm not sure what he means by those tables because as far as I know those tables don't exist on the EMU.
I would say the EMU is better in every regard for every purpose. The EMB seems to just be a cheap option, bare minimum solution that can be absolutely fine for what you want. Especially as of firmware 1.49. It allows for MAP input, Wideband input, etc etc.

I think this relay+regulator trick does the job to be honest. The only thing is, I've read that if you force open loop too much, the car will throw a CEL. Typical!

I'm guessing the tables are just spreadsheets he produced to illustrate what he was saying. Please feedback any results after the relay is fitted, people on Spyderchat seem to suggest just using the TPS won't be enough, be very useful to see what you achieve.

Edit: thinking it through I guess what they are saying is that it will still only go into open loop as a result of having both WOT and a certain (unknown and variable?) MAF load. Using the regulator will force open loop more often (which may help), BUT it still won't be triggered at the same repeatable point because the standard ECU still adds MAF load into the algorithm for closed loop and this will remain an uncontrolled variable.

What is needed is a method of entering open loop on demand at a point which is known, repeatable and not altered/controlled by the standard ECU. I wonder if this is what the EMU is capable of doing by clamping voltages?

Got all the kit for this little box-o-tricks. I'll build it tomorrow and post the diagram here

Is it done yet???

Quote from: "jvanzyl"Is it done yet???

Cpt impatient!
The only think I'm struggling with is earths.
Not sure where to get it from.
I'm not wildly experienced in electrics.

The easy part is the VTEC input and earth from the car. I was even thinking of just tapping into the earth of the e-Manage to make a cleaner  "harness" to the box-o-tricks.
The TPS side confused me a bit.

So I've got
Emanage Earth -> switch -> relay coil
VTEC (connectorB pin 14) -> relay coil
ECU TPS in (VTA pin 23)-> relay common
Relay normally closed -> TPS signal emanage harness side
Relay open -> voltage reg + in
Volt reg + out -> ECU TPS in

So, just the volt regulator negatives to figure out, and is it OK for the two different tps signals to go into the same pin on the ecu?
And just connect the two negatives on the volt reg?

Ok so this is what I've got. Bar one wire.

Volt reg IN + = IGN live
Volt reg IN - = earth (body)
Volt reg OUT + = fake TPS voltage to relay normally open pin
Volt reg OUT - = loop back to neg on IN. It's looped on the chip anyway.

Relay coil 1 = switch ACC (left pin)
Relay coil 2 = switch ground (right pin)
Relay Common = TPS input on ECU
Relay NC = feed from TPS sensor
Relay NO = fake TPS feed from volt reg out +

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161220/1a43536483df5db76258221995863e03.jpg)

Wires top to bottom:
- wire "harness" to connect emanage earth and VTEC signal to the switch ground and 12v (middle pin)
- switch with wires to the harness and then to the relay
- TPS input on ECU
- TPS sensor output
- ignition live
- ground to body

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161220/cd05dd302efeb36bb5aacd3b0dbe0020.jpg)

Wanted to have another peek at this so pulled my little box of tricks out of the garage and went to have a look at the ECU wiring.
So I've found the TPS (VTA) pin 23 (yellow/green wire) and noticed that my harness splices it into two (green/grey). One direct to the ECU, one to the eManage.

Is it ok to splice into the grounds and ignition lives of the emanage? Would just be easier to wire it all into the emanage harness instead of having to pull grounds and lives from elsewhere

Have you had a chance to test whether this kit does successfully invoke open loop on demand?

I haven't actually.
I had some remaining wiring questions and then the project got overrun by winter  s:) :) s:)  I didn't want to start splicing into wires unnecessarily.
I'm going to test this soon, as I have built Carolyn a kit as well but I won't send it until I know it works.

My wiring questions are:

1) The boomslang harness splits the TPS into two; one to the eManage and one to the stock ECU. I'm guessing this is good because I want the eManage to read the actual TPS value and the ECU to read either the altered or the actual TPS. So I'll just tap into the TPS->ECU wire on the harness then and leave the other one right? That way the ECU will never use it's maps for the VTEC rev ranges I've set, but the eManage will and be in open loop.
2) VTEC drives the relay coil. So this will be wired eManage VTEC to coil+ and coil- to any earth point. Is it ok to use the black ground wire on the emanage connector for this? I'm assuming it's the same circuit, so using this ground should be ok right?
3) Now I need another 5v/12v ignition on to drive the voltage regulator. Again, should be ok to use the red wire on the emanage connector right? I'll check if this is ignition live instead of permanent live. Can't imagine the volt-reg will drain the battery, but I'd rather not.

Red and black should be just fine.  Yes, red should be spliced into ignition live....

Sounds like it's simple enough..

I've just thought of another way to make it much simpler; VTEC 12v feeds the relay coil and the voltage regulator. One less wire.

There was a user called DaveGTST on here who did this mod. I think Lee has also done it. Maybe worth getting in touch with those guys?

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I've got Lee's open loop mod. But I've yet to install it... It's on the to do list for ding day! I'm not really competent yet with this side of stuff to explain what I actually have in my possession...

Quote from: "jvanzyl"I've got Lee's open loop mod. But I've yet to install it... It's on the to do list for ding day! I'm not really competent yet with this side of stuff to explain what I actually have in my possession...

Hahahaha.. a bit like me then [emoji14]

When did you go turbo?

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LOL... Noooooo turbo for me... Still NA! Lee kindly modified his old Blue setup to work with NA,.... But it's sitting in a box waiting for ding day to get installed.

Hmm... Just tried it user other power sources and it didn't work...
Back to drawing board. This really isn't difficult!
This reminds me of when I did the skirting boards in my sitting room. Took me ages to get my head around REALLY simple concepts and then I flew through it.

Sorted and tested. Ready to install.
I used a multimeter to act as ecu and a 9v battery to act as the power source for the volt regulator, relay and tps signal. 9v came through and 3.9 when I connected the relay coil positive. Good stuff.

Ordering a nice little black box to hold the electrics instead of the (perfectly adequate) locking nuts box and then putting it in.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170215/8c480701fd632039a65ea8c5ec2019e5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170215/b586e5d7890e9661790607beec6ae18f.jpg)

Nice one! So when you planning on installing it??

Might try tomorrow if I have time

It's tomorrow! you had time yet?? Does it work???

Quote from: "jvanzyl"It's tomorrow! you had time yet?? Does it work???

Have one.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/a47d8f7d655095bb087f8933a09d9672.jpg)

Mod is in and engine still fires, so can't have gone too wrong  s:) :) s:)  
Just need to tweak my map a bit and the vtec range and upload it, then it's time to try it

Sooo...
[attachment=0:11nrhb19] ia0 The-Office.gif ia0 [/attachment:11nrhb19]

LTFT flat as could be. The difference...oh the difference.

Anybody with an emanage on N/A... DO THIS!

I lowered the VTEC ranges a bit, so it starts to kick in over 30% throttle > 3000rpm.
Basically I just looked at my map and had a look where it starts to go for it and adjusted the VTEC mapping accordingly.

It's such a beautifully simple mod.

I need to tweak it a bit, as when I'm cruising around at 60-70mph the LTFT drops like a mofo. But then climbs again. So there's a tiny rev range where closed loop tuning has taken over and done a -15 on LTFT. Just need to find that range and map it out.
Could really do with a AFR gauge. I have no idea what it's doing now, which is the only part that;s making me nervous. But at no point did it pull power or show any signs of knock. I dare say there's some room for improvement in the map

Woooohoooo! Can't wait to get this installed! Roll on ding day!!!

(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee322/Essex2Visuvesi/anigif_enhanced-2299-1426273174-20.gif) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/Essex2Visuvesi/media/anigif_enhanced-2299-1426273174-20.gif.html)

Nice one Patrick.  Let me know what I owe you.  I'll PM my address.

Wow, sounds good, well done.

Wasn't my idea but thanks  s:) :) s:)  
I guess first time used on N/A though so that's cool  s:) :) s:)

Second one for Carolyn is a lot prettier  s:( :( s:(

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170217/7cb3453a7c8e7cb7874233913c5a056e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170217/45b343d733fd2bcf7786606e1b406df1.jpg)

Nice work

And all labelled up!!! Extra nice one.  Send me the bill.

Any chance of a recap on the piggyback situation? My memory is telling me the following:

EMB without TPS trickery is of little use?
EMB with TPS trickery still doesn't go into open loop, but works better than without it? (If so do we know why?)
Does TPS trickery still work as well on EMB after several weeks?
EMU also needs TPS trickery to work?

Is the above correct and is there anything else you have learned?

Thanks

EMB without TPS trickery is of little use?
Not necessarily. I haven't tried this yet but there was a link I posted a while back from the Celica forum about "tuning out" the LTFT changes.
This is a good idea regardless. It's very simple but time consuming.
Clear ecu. Drive around in closed loop for as long as you can while logging LTFT and rpm on obd2 and rpm on the EMB.
Then just match the two up and where the LTFT goes up, remove fueling from the associated cells and where it goes down, put more in. Drive around. Rinse and repeat until LTFT stays as close to 0 as possible. Days of tuning.

EMB with TPS trickery still doesn't go into open loop, but works better than without it? (If so do we know why?)
It does work, but it's not as black/white as hoped. There are brief situations where the car remains in closed even though the trick is active. But overall, it definitely works.
Does TPS trickery still work as well on EMB after several weeks?
Yes, but only because of the map. Answer is the same as in the first question. Need to tune out the closed loop areas. The trickery increases the amount of open loop area, but doesn't remove it all. It's the idling/cruising areas where you have to get the map spot on 14.7 AFR
EMU also needs TPS trickery to work?
Yes. My mistake at first. It's just that the EMU has a MUCH better map to use. The vtec map only lets you define areas where vtec kicks in and it's all inclusive above it.
Whereas on the EMU you can specify exact load and rpm ranges where it's active and not.

I won't run without the trickery, but I definitely need to find time to tune out the closed loop LTFT compensation




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Thanks for the info. I suppose the complication with option 1 is that there are several variables involved in Toyota's algorithm so any particular load/rpm cell in the mid range will sometimes be addressed in open loop and sometimes in closed loop, according to the influence of the other variables being used.

Indeed. Which I guess is why the guy suggests you do it a couple times. Tune it, reset the ecu and do it again to make sure the LTFT stay down.

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