I have just bought an silver o1 mr2, and have never had a rear wheel drive or a mid engined car before, im used to fiesta's micra's ect,- ( yes i am ashamed!!! ) i have driven fast cars but not sporty cars,- so what i want to know is,- Is the handling really that bad in the wet? and how far can you push them before its hedge time? and if someone can give me a rough guide to driving a mid engined rear wheel drive car id be grateful,- cos i cant afford to go on a course. what do i do if the back end goes west? thanx
There's loads of resources on the net for driving mid-engined RWD. My advice is go slow to start off with and learn basic rules. I used to drive a ka (cough) and it was a lot more forgiving than the '2. You can do stuff like brake mid corner, lift off (the throttle) etc etc. You might find yourself in trouble if you try that in the 2. Try to picture where the weight of the car is, where the car steers from and what will happen if lose of traction occurs, ie in a front wheel drive car, you'll carry on in a straight path (understeer) the understeer will wash speed off and that forces weight down onto the front wheels making them regain traction. However in rwd the rear wheels will go, braking will put force into the front tyres and you're going for a spin.
Etcetc
But really its not that bad at all, make sure you've got decent tyres and the pressures are all ok.
I've had my car for 6 months now and I've only wrote it off once. Erm.
not sure if your car is brand new or not, so this maybe irrelevant.
However make sure you have the same make and model tyres all round.
make sure they are the correct sizes all round. The rears are wider for a reason, the same size all round and yu would be asking for trouble.
make sure your tyre pressure are correct, this car is very sensitiev to them.
normally I'd recomend lowering teh front pressures a little to reduce understeer, however you may want do do teh reverse, as if your nervous with it understeer is more controllable than oversteer.
second, smooth driving.
don't accelerate, brake or change gear mid bend. this will destabilise teh car and bring teh arse round. If thats what your trying to do it can be useful, but as a general rule of thumb your far safer if you avoid that.
think of it this way, the tyres only have a finite amount of grip, this will be divide up amongst what your trying to do at teh time.
i.e if 100% grip is what you have, accelerating or braking may use up 40% leaving you only 60% to grip teh road with, avoid braking or accelerating and you have 100% grip available, constant throttle is teh order of teh day.
third, avoid cheap shitty tyres you bought the car to enjjoy it, and this is false economy, Toyo proxies are your friend.
Quote from: "Slidey McSlideSlide (dave"what do i do if the back end goes west?
Pray.
It's not really something you can learn from internet, you should at least try it in a large parking lot or whatever you have over there. Being mid-engined, things happen very fast and you don't have any time to think about it.
Quote from: "Slidey McSlideSlide (dave"I have just bought an silver o1 mr2 ... someone can give me a rough guide to driving ... cos i cant afford to go on a course
Airfield days start from £89 per day, with professional one-to-one instruction from £20 (and lots of free advice available too). Four-to-one car-control courses start from around £150. Either are probably less than the excess you'd pay if you went into a hedge, without even counting the amount of lost time and hassle associated with it. If you're at all worried that your driving style is such that you could lose control of your car, then going on a professionally run car-control course is the least you can do for yourself and the other road users around you. Plus they're fun; and make ideal presents to receive!
/harsh, but I think, fair.
Quote from: "mph"and make ideal presents to receive!
And Christmas is coming.. I'm sure someone would get you a course - afterall, they probably don't want to see you in a hedge either..
Much better than learning the 'hard way' as others have said, and once you know what to do and where the cars limits are you can enjoy driving it an awful lot more s:) :) s:) (And won't be afraid to drive it in the rain/snow/ice etc as a bonus)
Hi,
Tips:
1 . Icy Road = not your friend, buy a tempreture gauge from Halford, it will be your god send.
2. Worn / Cheap / different makes on each wheel Tyre = Asking for A crash !
3. Pressures correct = car is your friend !
4. Be Smooth, think about your gear changes, like on a track you would really want to change mid corner, a mid engined, rear wheel car dosen't like this !
5. Don't trash about in icy road conditions = Asking for trouble (Cough, £4,000 worth of damage, going 100 yard in black ice, not funny!)
6. Get to know your car, rule of thumb - every car is different, learn it over a period of time, don't just go thrashing about ! (you have been warned)
7. If you have a hard top - the handling is much improved, but don't get over confident, as mark says you only have so much rubber keeping you on the road.
This car is a pleasure to drive, fun precise and quick, don't abuse it and it will be your friend, abuse it (on the road) at your peril !
Tyre choice and age are very important, old and low tread = Crash + I told you so's !!!!
Anyway - hope these points help, have fun and be careful is my final comment, enjoy !
Cheers
Darren J s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
and watch out for Yoko's in the wet!!
they can be a ba****d
that is if you have them of course?!
Find a large EMPTY carpark when wet and at about 10-15mph turn sharply and gun the accelerator in first or second and the back will break away. This will give you a feeling about what you need to do to correct. It comes out very fast and you need to be lightning fast to catch it on occassion but good practice.
Make sure you have no bollards etc anywhere near you!!!
Good luck
and speaking of which, anyone know of any in Surrey??
what bollards?
Quote from: "Slidey McSlideSlide (dave"I have just bought an silver o1 mr2, and have never had a rear wheel drive or a mid engined car before, im used to fiesta's micra's ect,- ( yes i am ashamed!!! ) i have driven fast cars but not sporty cars,- so what i want to know is,- Is the handling really that bad in the wet? and how far can you push them before its hedge time? and if someone can give me a rough guide to driving a mid engined rear wheel drive car id be grateful,- cos i cant afford to go on a course. what do i do if the back end goes west? thanx
The handling in the wet is excellent, the same as in the dry. Other than that I agree with most of what's been said already. Just take it easy and enjoy s8) 8) s8)
There are many posts stating that extreme care should be taken in the wet, especially going round corners. Will the car slide doing a reasonable speed round a corner, if everything is done smoothly? or should i take all wet corners slow? I hope to go on a course after crimbo, but until then i need this advice. I am a safe driver and dont speed much,- but all the posts warning of driving in the wet have unnerved me to say the least. Can you also tell me what to do if the back end does slide,- cos i dont know, id prob hit brakes with instinct. thanx
I am also puzzled with to what to do if i had top down on motorway, and it started to rain?- what do you guys do?
If you're moving at speed don't try and put the top up, I guess id come off at the nearest exit and do it. My streetka driving friend stopped in the hard shoulder to do it, but I don't know it's a bit risky. Better damp seats than no head.
As far as wet handling, if you're doing the speed limit then I reckon you'll be fine, if you're flooring it, pushing it around corners etc in the wet, then you might get into trouble, maybe more so that a standard FWD hatchback, The cars lighter after all. But for normal driving - you really don't have to worry. I had a crash which involved going over oil and coolant left by a crash that had happened shortly before, on a corner, and I had brand new tyres (~ less than 1 mile on them), in torrential rain. So it was asking for it really.
If you're back end does come out, steer into the slide, i.e. provide opposite lock, from experience this is probably a lot less than you imagine you need (I eventually fish tailed into the curb, wrecking by rear suspension but not touching the bodywork or crumple zones). Don't brake, if anything apply slightly more throttle, unless you're wheels are spinning.
But as said before, nothing can prepare yourself.
Look at it this way, the majority of mr2 (and mx-5) owners are just people who want a cheap sports car - to look flash in (not the people on here obviously), they've got corolla engines and are not TVR's. They're not going to kill you if you make a slight mistake.
how safe it is in teh wet, depends on the tyres and your driving style,
it can bite, but if your careful and only accelerate/brake when in a straight line you should be ok.
if you do start to lose it, fight the urge to break or fully release teh throttle, keep your speed constant and steer into teh slide, e.g if teh arse comes round to teh left steer left.
but again try and keep it smooth if you can.
ref the roof, anything over 40 will keep the rain out anyway, so personally I keep going, if you do have to drop below that on the motorway your usually stopped so it's not a problem.
Just one thing to add to everyone elses comments - you need to think in three dimensions. Becuase the car is very sensistive to input, you need to consider how pitch affects it as well as yaw i.e. if you brake, as other have mentioned, you will be transferring weight to the front of the car, in effect the car will be trying to do an endo, which reduces traction at the back end and thus the back end to run wide if you also happen to be corenering at the time. This effect can also be caused by backing off the accelerator whilst corenering. In this case the egine braking causes weight transfer to the front biut also since the car is rear drive this breaking force is being transmitted through the rear wheels and is potentially more lethal than actually braking. This is why, if the back starts sliding, it's bad to completely back off the throttle. You should feather the power off gently to avoid upsetting the balance of the car.
You can get the feel for what I'm talking about by backing off as you go round a roundabout - you will notice that as you do it the front will tuck into the bend more and the back will become a bit more lively - obviously - work up from slower speeds so you don't crash - and be careful.
Like the others say, it's not some 500bhp monster, so as long as you've got a good set of tyres, keep 'em at the right pressure and don't drive like a loon, you'll probably be fine.
What the chaps have said about backing off, and how to correct a slide is spot on.
I'd just suggest that as the weather is less than fantastic these days (and no matter what you do, water will reduce grip), that you just start off slow, and build up.
Don't go throwing it into the first corner you come to at 100mph.
Quote from: "Slidey McSlideSlide (dave"Will the car slide doing a reasonable speed round a corner, if everything is done smoothly? or should i take all wet corners slow?
Basically (assuming you have decent tyres, with proper pressures etc.) the limit is higher than with most cars, so there's no need to worry about anything, if you drive like your granny. But since the limit is up there and the car is just so much fun to toss around, you'll likely start driving faster and faster till you find the limit. And if you're not prepared for that, then you will be in trouble.
i had a hairy moment in the wet along a country road the other day. was gunning through the lanes and suddenly spotted a traffic light sign for temporary roadworks, which followed with a sharp blind left turn, applied the brakes, backend IMMEDIATELY gave way, took my foot off the breaks and applied a bit of opposite lock and managed to regain control. all in about a 1/10th of a second s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
thankgod i have the reflexes of a cat s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "Tomr2"thankgod i have the reflexes of a cat s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
thank God it wasn't the reflexes of my cat, it just fell off the back of the sofa! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
My cat has bad reflexes too, he's been hit by cars 3 times - he just dont learn.
and he doesnt clean himself anymore which is a bit horrible,
thanx for advice, maybe shouldnt have got first mid engines rwd ,- just as winter sets in, especially given that they dont grit the country roads i use
Hi,
Just come back form covertry this morning - hell -4.5 degrees already !!!! heck, we are in for a harsh winter.
Had no driving issues though, just kept the speeds sensible and kept in the slow lane, let the rep muppets come a cropper in the outside lane. Wasn't in a rush to get home so enjoyed a pleasent drive home.
temp didn't go above zero, thus there deffinately was no "spirited" driving techniques !
As they have all said smooth and steady in these conditions.
When summer come and it warms up, you can nail it round roundabouts, my mate loves it when I do that, the girls on the other hand, they kak it !
Have fun
Darren J
Quote from: "darrenjuggins"hell -4.5 degrees already !!!! heck, we are in for a harsh winter.
please, don't say that, i work outdoors on an airport, whatever the local weather is in london, you can usually take 5degs off at work s:( :( s:(
blinkin nobblin already
Quote from: "Slidey McSlideSlide (dave"My cat has bad reflexes too, he's been hit by cars 3 times - he just dont learn.
and he doesnt clean himself anymore which is a bit horrible,
thanx for advice, maybe shouldnt have got first mid engines rwd ,- just as winter sets in, especially given that they dont grit the country roads i use
Don't worry, just take it steady. We got our '2 last winter and it survived plenty of snowy and icy driving (almost) without incident. Having the engine over the rear wheels is a Good Thing for traction and the feel when the car slides at low speeds(snow) is excellent and the handling really predictable.
Sure your not confusing your MR2 for your other car - A LandRover Discovery s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Heck I found that unless I already had forward motion, my car was like bathing a fish - pointless and useless s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s8) 8) s8) s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
all that I managed to do was spin the car round on the spot, very impressive in a big open car park, but pretty useless in the office car park when I wanted to go home !!!! doh !!!!
but also manged to survive - was a little embarressed when I got stuck at the end of the drive on a gradiant, it was just not gonna go up it ! this was me then s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Tee, hee !
Cheers
Darren J
(Andy only joking mate)
Darren:
Whilst a Disco would have been better (if it hadn't broken down) the '2 was better than I expected. The mid-engined handling is really good in the snow, but of course I could really have done with winter tyres, for about 3 days!
Andy
Tee, Hee....
Yeah must admit, I was dead impressed to get to work, some quite difficult roads and gradients, then to get stuck at the end of the drive way was pretty embarressing !!!
But as you say, if the roads are well gritted and you are steady it's not too bad.
Just ungritted estate roads which are nightmare ish !!! - If I really get stuff I ring my dad up who run's a local Landrover dealership, haven't quite convinced him to "lend" me a Vogue Range Rover over the xmas period yet, but I'll keep working on it :-) :-) :-)
But couldn't beleive it was alread5 -4.5 this morning, very chilly!
Cheers
Darren
The best thing to do is get together with a couple of other "2" owners and go on a 1st Lotus driving day at North Weald, it only costs £150 and is well worth the cost when you consider the heartbreak of ditching your "2"! It is also great in the respect that you can hit the track and test your new found knowledge of how your car and you handle!
My only other advise is don't push the car in the wet, you'll find the limit and probably be fine, but when you hit that bit of diesel laying on top of the wet road you'll be buggered!
Its good to lack in confidence in the begining because it can get you into trouble, which i found out the hard way.
I had bags of confidence in both the car and my abilitites and I had a very good understanding of understear, overstear and what to do when it happens, in theory anyway.
One damp afternoon I had my ability tested when the back end went at about 50MPH. I can tell you what I should have done and thats control the slide with the throtte but instead before I knew I was doing it I was on the brakes. This sent me into a spin and down a banking s:cry: :cry: s:cry: .
My point is all the knowledge and advice in the world will not help you without practice.
I took myself to an industrial estate and kept getting her sideways until i could do it without thinking, its saved me a couple of times since.
And the mention of Yoko's is true, they make drivig in the wet like being on glass.
I'd start practicing s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "LeeUK"The best thing to do is get together with a couple of other "2" owners and go on a 1st Lotus driving day at North Weald, it only costs £150 and is well worth the cost when you consider the heartbreak of ditching your "2"! It is also great in the respect that you can hit the track and test your new found knowledge of how your car and you handle!
And that's from a man of experience! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Sorry mate, I couldn't resist!
Ho hum s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I thought you would have quoted me on this:
Quote from: "LeeUK"My only other advise is don't push the car in the wet, you'll find the limit and probably be fine, but when you hit that bit of diesel laying on top of the wet road you'll be buggered!
Na, that one was too easy. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "LeeUK"The best thing to do is get together with a couple of other "2" owners and go on a 1st Lotus driving day at North Weald, it only costs £150 and is well worth the cost when you consider the heartbreak of ditching your "2"! It is also great in the respect that you can hit the track and test your new found knowledge of how your car and you handle!
I am desperate to try something like this. At present unless the road is straight or dry I drive a bit like a Granny. The Club had a North Weald day earlier which I just missed, any hopes of another?
If the club decides not I would be happy to join others in a "personal" visit.
roger
Best bet is to do what I did, put a post in the events section and set a day up yourself with three other people. It then comes to £150 each.
Quote from: "LeeUK"Best bet is to do what I did, put a post in the events section and set a day up yourself with three other people. It then comes to £150 each.
Training day at North Weald.Thanks Lee. I am organising this for next year. Getting dates etc as we speak.
Anybody want in? It appears we don't need 4, you can always make another group upto 4. However I think if we are all MR2 drivers the day would be much better for all of us.
If you are not sure have a look here w www.1stlotus.com (http://www.1stlotus.com) w . Could even persuade somebody to give you a voucher for Chrissy.
roger
Im def up for that! ill start saving, if i stop eating i should be able to aford it.
I've got myself sorted. If any body interested in a North Weald training day see my post in "Events".
Roger
I just bought a used 01 Spyder and love it already. Today was my first driving in the rain and the car seemed stable on the highway at 75-80 mph. However after reading this I will back down. You guys refer to tire pressure but don't say what to use. What is the best pressure to use on stock size tires? Do you use winter tires like Blizzaks or stay with summer tires.
Quote from: "TomSpyder"What is the best pressure to use on stock size tires?
I'd start with the factory recommended pressure and adjust it according to my personal experience... You'll find a sticker on the bottom of your glovebox: 26 psi Front and 32 psi Rear.
Welcome to the club, and... Congratulations for choosing the fastest color! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "TomSpyder"What is the best pressure to use on stock size tires? Do you use winter tires like Blizzaks or stay with summer tires.
Its generally thought, and I can agree, get better front control dropping the front pressures by 1 or 2 lbs. Try, see what suits you best.
I reckon you should talk to Tem, or some of your more northerly countrymen on winter tyres. We tend not to change in the UK, well in England, any way.
roger
Quote from: "TomSpyder"Do you use winter tires like Blizzaks or stay with summer tires.
The summer tires are really bad in the snow. I've been running Nokian NRW's in the winter and they're great in the snow and not half bad on dry pavement. But they're no longer made. The replacement is the WR series, and I'll be trying those out next winter.
Where do you get your snows? So if you lower the front to say 24lbs and use 32 in the rear those pressures seem to work best for everyone. What does Tramlining mean? Will lowering springs hurt the ride? I would like to set up the Spyder for autocrossing but still drive it everyday. What seems to be the hot set up for autoctossing?
Quote from: "TomSpyder"Where do you get your snows? So if you lower the front to say 24lbs and use 32 in the rear those pressures seem to work best for everyone. What does Tramlining mean? Will lowering springs hurt the ride? I would like to set up the Spyder for autocrossing but still drive it everyday. What seems to be the hot set up for autoctossing?
1. Wales and Scotland, some parts of England. Usually not around long enough to change tyres or wheels.
2. Yes, but each to his own.
3. Car veers from required line into the "depressions" made on roads by HGVs.
4. Sorry no experience, guess harder.
5. Adjustable dampers?! By the way we do caber tossing in Scotland, but never heard of Autotossing - probably need a few muscles s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
roger
Typo, it should have read autocrossing. However I always heaqrd that Scots could toss anything. Is there a website like this in the USA?
Quote from: "TomSpyder"Typo, it should have read autocrossing. However I always heaqrd that Scots could toss anything. Is there a website like this in the USA?
Its called "friendly banter", sometimes doesn't quite come off in the written word. What I've seen of US sites everybody seems very much more IN YER FACE. Us Brits (well most of us) take a bit of a calmer attitude. s8) 8) s8)
roger
Quote from: "TomSpyder"Is there a website like this in the USA?
Try http://www.spyderchat.com though, as roger says, it's not as calm and organized.
Quote from: "so.simple"Quote from: "TomSpyder"Is there a website like this in the USA?
Try http://www.spyderchat.com though, as roger says, it's not as calm and organized.
There's a more civilized site as well s;) ;) s;)
m http://socalspyders.com/ (http://socalspyders.com/) m
While not "like this," http://www.spydermagazine.com/ is another useful site. And congrats on getting a good car. Taking mine out tomorrow for a 200-mile run and looking forward to it.
You are so right, I like the calm way better. Can I order parts like exhaust or springs from the UK or would it be cheaper to order them in the US? Also is there a difference in US versus UK models? I like the dual exhaust I've seen here but don't know where to go to order it. Sure do appreciate your putting up with my newness.........Tom
Expect to come off a roundabout backwards AT LEAST ONCE. If you are unlucky it will cost you money. particularly on damp roads s:( :( s:(
Expect to hit ice AT LEAST ONCE s:shock: :shock: s:shock: If you are going at 5 mph the damage may not cost you £££. If your doing 40mph s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
With these two things in mind and after a bit of experience you will have a great time!
PS i came off a roundabout backwards twice, onece on two wheels (almost flipped s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ), i spun a 380 at 2-3 mph in ice too!! luclke no damage either time!
Oh and if you do find yourself in a spin dont worry, it will be instinct to correct it s:D :D s:D
You dont need to remember anything you read here because instinctivly you will..
1. Come off the accelerator (but remember not competly, just enough)
2. Steer in the opposite direction a bit.
It will be natural because you will try to correct what you last did which is over-rev and over-steer.
Quote from: "TomSpyder"You are so right, I like the calm way better. Can I order parts like exhaust or springs from the UK or would it be cheaper to order them in the US? Also is there a difference in US versus UK models? I like the dual exhaust I've seen here but don't know where to go to order it. Sure do appreciate your putting up with my newness.........Tom
Generally speaking, if you can buy the item in the US & the UK, our cost will be approximately twice yours, and its getting worse as the $ is nearly 2 to the £. However, as a newbie here as well, it seems the real enthusiast buys from wherever he can find the item he wants.
Check out w www.MRS-passion.com (http://www.mrs-passion.com) w dieamond is a regular on this site though prices are in euros.
There are differences (like the side on which we put the steering wheel s:wink: :wink: s:wink: , sorry. But I guess you just have to be very careful when ordering or specifying, just to be sure - especially if you are getting into major mechanics.
I am glad you like our way, but I am afraid there may well be too many of our country cousins over your side of the pond who will never change.
Keep coming - different points of view are always welcomed.
roger
Well I nearly kissed goodbye to picking up the 350Z earlier on today. Driving on a dry, straight by pass that I always drive on, the car literally jack knifed to the right 90 degrees, I caught it, then caught the second slide as it fishtailed. All at 80mph. I constantly hang the back end out in corners etc, but never have i experienced this on a dry, straight road at such high speed. I know that if I hadn't been on diving training courses in the past the car would now be a right off as it was heading for a wall. My girlfriend was in the car as well, which could have been really nasty.
Really scared me half to death! So for the last week of MR2 ownership I'm taking it very steady!
I'd take this opportunity at Lotus to see how your car handles when its on the edge, as you might need it like i did today. What happens in those few seconds can mean the difference between a right off and a mere sweaty brow.
Had mine for two weeks in the summer and in the first bit of rain I learned on a motorway sliproad that if you take a corner with just a little bit more boot than usual how quick the back end can get away from you!!! I actually joined the motorway in a snaking motion as I was trying to over correct the sideways motion and all three lanes slowed down as I joined the motorway!! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Did not hit anything, but I now know to give my 2 respect in the wet! Does not apply in the dry!... yet?
Mike and Steve
2 places on w www.1stlotus.co.uk (http://www.1stlotus.co.uk) w for 14th February 2005 s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
roger
I'll have a think about it Roger..could do with learning the Z. Though it's on my birthday! I'll let you know if i can make it.
Quote from: "MRMike"I'll have a think about it Roger..could do with learning the Z. Though it's on my birthday! I'll let you know if i can make it.
My birthday on the 7th. Thats why I'm doing it. Any way you would be home by 6. Enough time to get out and celebrate. Go on....
roger
Funny, I experience understeer much more than oversteer. Came back late tonight and the roads were quite slippy. Tried going round a large roundabout a few times and increasing the speed just added to the understeer. Managed to turn off a small roundabout using understeer alone!
When trying to control the understeer, I get a bit of a four wheel drift - but not for very long. The back feels like its going to do something but it doesn't.
OK, there is oversteer, mostly on tight corners or t-junctions and too many revs - but mostly the 2 doesn't generate enough serious torque early enough to spin the back end at every corner. I would expect the turbo to be lethal in this area.
And, I am very respectful of the car, no barrelling in to corners at stupid speeds when the road isn't dry.
Looking forward to the 1stLotus day on 14th Feb with Roger to experiment and learn where the oversteer really is.
MRMike, please bring the 350.
Regards
Jason
Quote from: "TomSpyder"Is there a website like this in the USA?
http://www.socalspyders.com is a very laid back, very neighbourly board.....with a little bit of a younger slant......
http://www.spyderchat.com is a bit wilder, more manic board.....you'll get a bit of everything there.....it's a little off-putting at first, but it is still a great community and a
fantastic resource.....
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com is another great site, but it's really geared more towards mkI and mkII cars......
Quote from: "mrsmr2"Funny, I experience understeer much more than oversteer.
Don't enter the corners quite so fast, or try 'trail braking' so the front stays loaded up. This will give it more grip and quicker turn in at the front - just watch you don't lose the back as you get on the gas.
Remember the '2 is designed to handle safely for the average motorist - who will be used to a FWD grocery-getter, which will always understeer out of corners. At least it will unless you have a big lift off in the middle of a corner when near the limits of grip. Then it will go backwards into the scenery like everything else.
I'll probably try some different tyres when I change them. I'm on the RE040s at the moment and I've found them to be great tyres for both dry roads (loads of grip at front), and the wet (surprising amount of grip). It's the current slippy, damp roads that are causing increased understeer.
I guess I need to understand mid engine handling a bit more. I think, it's the lack of weight at the front that creates most of this problem.
I'm respectful of trail braking in these conditions, but used it alot in the dry.
Last week I had an enthusiastic female A3 TDI driver try to keep up with me on a dual carriageway punctuated by roundabouts. I had to be really carefull with the back end exiting the roundabouts and I would expect the A3 to probably match (or maybe be slightly faster) on the exits. Ultimately, there wasn't a lot in it. In the dry I wouldn't have even backed off. However, this is all good as it's starting to introduce me to real rear wheel drive characteristics - something that I've found lacking from my 2 until now.
Regards
Jason
Right, what's trail braking???
I very well may do it - but haven't heard of this term...
Buy Goodyear F1's if you live in the UK..
oh my theyre good s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
ive had them for a year now and they have never let me down, just back from a damp blast though the scottish Grampians upto (120mph!) and still alive s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
ahh well, live another day,
(if the rozzers are watching is wasne me)
Quote from: "Mr 2"Right, what's trail braking???
I very well may do it - but haven't heard of this term...
When you are still braking slightly as you turn in to the corner. By slightly I mean a handful of % of max. braking potential. As follows:
At the start of the braking zone you put the brakes on, hard, as the car slows you start to come of the brakes so that the nose starts to come back up so that the car is level front-to-back. You keep coming off the brakes until you are almost completely off them at the end of the braking zone. The front-to-back attitude of the car is as good as level, with only a small handful of extra % over the fornt wheels. For example, if the car was standing still on a four-wheel balance it would be 50/50 front-rear split. By trail braking you want to upset that balance just enough to make the front heavier/back lighter, say 51/49, but only just as you turn into the corner. This weights up the front of the car to give the front tyres more bite as you turn in, hence reducing understeer. The skill is not getting the car too far out of balance at the turn in - 'cos if it's too far wrong, then that usually means a spin will follow.
Hopefully, that's clear. If not, I'm sure juansolo will be along in a minute to put me right.
Also, this is not the sort of thing to practice on the highway. The run off areas are crap, and there's always going to be someone coming the other way when you get it wrong. Besides which, on a circuit or airfield the braking zones are helpfully marked with large boards and cones s;-) ;-) s;-) Suggest you sign up for roger's North Weald trip so you have plenty of room to try this out.
Aaaaaaaah!
Cheers for that! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I do that sometimes - but as you say, you have to use extreme caution that you don't upset the balance of the car too much!
And now I know what it's called too! s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "vibratingsky"Oh and if you do find yourself in a spin dont worry, it will be instinct to correct it s:D :D s:D
You dont need to remember anything you read here because instinctivly you will..
1. Come off the accelerator (but remember not competly, just enough)
2. Steer in the opposite direction a bit.
It will be natural because you will try to correct what you last did which is over-rev and over-steer.
I don't think you get that natural instinct when you're born s;) ;) s;) You have to learn it by driving a RWD car... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quotevibratingsky wrote:
Oh and if you do find yourself in a spin dont worry, it will be instinct to correct it
You dont need to remember anything you read here because instinctivly you will..
1. Come off the accelerator (but remember not competly, just enough)
2. Steer in the opposite direction a bit.
It will be natural because you will try to correct what you last did which is over-rev and over-steer.
I don't think you get that natural instinct when you're born You have to learn it by driving a RWD car...
I ment common sense! i forget that driving isn't a thing your born to do! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "vibratingsky"I ment common sense! i forget that driving isn't a thing your born to do! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I knew what you meant, just pulling your leg s;) ;) s;)
Anyway, Slidey said in the first post that he never had a RWD before, so I'm not sure how easy/natural counter steering is when the ass snaps loose for the first time s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
better to find out in the wet at 25mph than at 65mph s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
actually i occasionally get snap oversteer at 10-15mph at the right roundabouts, good practice for someone new to the car! It has to be real damp and greasy though.. like every street in Scotland this time of year s:( :( s:(
Sensible stuff:
1/ Do all your braking and gear changing in a straight line *before* you get to a corner.
2/ Slow in, fast out of corners. It's quicker and safer.
3/ Keep the car balanced when going around a corner. Big inputs to any of the controls can spit you off the road. Be smooth.
4/ Going sideways takes practice. Learn on an airfield. It's not big or clever to do it on a public road.
5/ Don't take the piss in the wet. You can run out of grip very, very quickly. Keep it slow and steady.
Not so sensible stuff:
Trail braking *waves at filcee* is braking as you turn into a corner (remember number one of no-no's up there). The idea is that you transfer some of the weight of the car over the front wheels lightening up the back. This will make your car turn in sharply and, depending on what you do next, can result in a nice four wheel drift and you gently feed in the power or a leary 90 degree slide as you feed in a shit load of power and apply a lot more lock.
It all comes down to throttle control. A binary throttle is not a good thing, but if you've come from a hot hatch I guarentee this is what you'll do. It's all or nothing. For instance, you need to apply power if the backend lets go, but you need to do this in a progressive manner. Stamping on the accellerator and steering into the skid will simply result in the car spining.
"over correction" No such thing. It's another way of saying "I've run out of talent". The sooner you accept this and learn what you did wrong, the better...
For example, The tank slapper - You've started to slide, you think you've got it then it snaps the other way, which can go on and on, and on. The car has not done this to you. You haven't caught the inital slide. Whether this is because you haven't got enough lock on, haven't got it on quick enough or have applied too much power is irrelevant, but what you have done, I guarentee you, is panic and either lifted straight off the gas or, worse still, touched the brakes. The weight has shot to the front of the car with it's wheels pointing somewhere into the skid and the backend snaps around to follow them now that there is no weight there.
From this point there are two options. Firstly there it to try and recover the skid. These buggers are very hard to get back and all the time you are powering on in god knows what direction, probably toward a tyre wall. The second on is to apply the first rule of spinning: When in a spin, both feet in. That is, stamp hard on the brake and clutch. The idea is that you lock all the wheels and come to a halt asap. The other thing here is that you'll skid in the direction of travel regardless of which way your wheels are pointing as opposed to 400 yds up the road somewhere.
It needs to all become second nature and it only does that with practice. Which is what airfields and skid pans are for. Learn your car, learn how to feel it and control it, learn what to do when you f**k it up. Which you will, everyone and I mean everyone f**ks it up from time to time. Then and only then take this knowledge to a track. By this time you'll probably have got gooning out of your system, but then even the best of us have lapses every now and then and enjoy just to throw it around a bit.
FWIW, doing any of this on a road is dangerous, don't.
Spend a bit of cash and do it in a controlled environment.
Tangent: Trail braking
Return of the crap videoage.
This is not a particularly good lap of Anglesey circuit that was done many moons ago now but it shows what I mean. (it is an mpeg 4. Plays in quicktime, VLC and mPlayer on the Mac, god knows what on the PC).
http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/Stuff/Anglesey.mpg Right click and download. 7.55MB
(http://www.trackdays.co.uk/shared/images/circuits/anglesey-map.gif)
Righty, we start on the main straight (keeping to the right until after the blend line) and head straight into the double apex of School corner in fourth at about 75mph. You can go faster but I only learned later that you can enter the corner much deeper and carry much more speed through it. It's very, very ballsy though, touching triple figures in a Caterfield. Anyhow the idea is to keep the wheel at a fairly constant angle and you should end up on the left hand side of the track for entry into Abbots which is a sharp right.
You have very little space here to get your downchange to third out of the way and a dab of the brakes. To flick the car out I'm actually turning in sharply under braking. You should be sideways before the apex. Power oversteer out of a corner is easy if you have the power, it takes a little more commitment in a stock Mr2 to make it really slide. Do it right and you can slide out over to the kerb. Actually taking it properly is much, much faster, but less fun.
Next up is the Radar complex. Mucho fun here. You're over to the right on entry to the sharp left and you want to be on the left hand side of the circuit ready for the imediate 90 degree right (you can straight line the left kink that follows it). Here I'm a little more vicious to get the car sliding into the right. Change into 2nd with a hard dab on the brakes, steer into the skid balanced on the throttle then power out. Again, actually entering the corner properly (I'm carrying too much speed and using the slide to slow down) is much faster. But then it doesn't look half as cool as this:
(http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/Mr2/Mr2AngGoon_800.jpg)
The rest of the lap is nothing to write home about. If you're feeling particularly destructive you can get massive slidage around the hairpin (the tightest in the country). But in the standard car that really calls for brutal trail braking or comic tyre pressures.
So then, who's up for Anglesey 2005? You've got the perfect car for the circuit and no excuses.
Quote from: "juansolo"Trail braking *waves at filcee* is braking as you turn into a corner (remember number one of no-no's up there). The idea is that you transfer some of the weight of the car over the front wheels lightening up the back. This will make your car turn in sharply and, depending on what you do next, can result in a nice four wheel drift and you gently feed in the power or a leary 90 degree slide as you feed in a s**t load of power and apply a lot more lock.
IMHO, Karting is a great way to practice this s8) 8) s8)
Practice what Juansolo preaches s8) 8) s8) .
Still 2 places left at North Weald (see Events), especially useful for anybody thinking of Anglesey 2005 I guess.
I paid them today, and was told that we can keep the places reserved for club members until 28 days before (January 14th?). After that they are taken off the reservation list and made available to the "public".
If anybody wishes to provisonally book (and make a final decision once Christmas is over), the same rules apply. Pay by January 14 or lose your booking.
roger
I quite fancy doing this, though i won't be able to give a defo answer till after crimbo.
I'll keep an eye out in case the places don't get filled up with more decisive chaps.
Quote from: "roger"Practice what Juansolo preaches s8) 8) s8) .
Hear hear. Roads are not places to play or practise on.
I'm an average driver as far as I'm concerned. One skip-pan course, three days at North Weald and 15 track days later, I'm now
beginning to get comfortable driving the '2 with any reasonable control, and even then I'm not all that consistent - just ask SteveJ about his recent view from the passenger seat of the pitlane tyre wall at Donington.
Quote from: "juansolo"Trail braking *waves at filcee* is braking as you turn into a corner (remember number one of no-no's up there). The idea is that you transfer some of the weight of the car over the front wheels lightening up the back. This will make your car turn in sharply and, depending on what you do next, can result in a nice four wheel drift and you gently feed in the power or a leary 90 degree slide as you feed in a s**t load of power and apply a lot more lock.
Cheers - I knew you'd sort that out for me s;-) ;-) s;-)
Quote from: "juansolo"Spend a bit of cash and do it in a controlled environment.
... or don't do it at all ... s;-) ;-) s;-)
Quote from: "roger"Still 2 places left at North Weald (see Events), especially useful for anybody thinking of Anglesey 2005 I guess.
I'd like to do both, but I'm waiting to see if our companies proposed flexible benefits system will be both flexible and beneficial enough for me to get enough holidays to take the time off to do it, and also have the cash to pay for it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I crashed my 2 on Boxing day. I'd only owned it for 4 weeks and it has 1000km on the clock! I was more ashamed taking it to the dealer, they laughed!
Anyway, after lunch on boxing day, I though I would go for a spin (sic).
I was on my way back down a country road which was damp. Confidence in handling of the 2 was high, having owned it for a month and loved every min of driving it. I was doing about 80/90km though a double s bend (not very tight). I didn't even have time to react. I spun twice and hit (front on) into a huge rock face s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
I'm sure a full tum and a couple of glasses of wine certainly reduced my reactions. I'm actually an experince driver (I didnb't say good), having driven for 18 years including some track and hilclimb experience. Also more anoyingly, this was the first accident that i have had that was completely my fault.
Anyway Mr T will hopefully finish the repair this week - basically a new front of the car! Thankfully my insurance excees is only 250 Euros.
A lesson learned and I cannot wait to get back driving it.
Nathan
PS of note, my air bags didn't open in the crash and yet it caused so much damage.