Hi all so my new subframe has arrived from Mr T. But I can see it will rust in weeks without some further protection. Thoughts of powder coating as a expensive option £80 , hammerite on the outside and waxoil on the inside or POR15? Do I need to bear in mind the proximity to a hot exhaust when choosing the paint/rust protection.
What did you do and has it worked?
Dynatrol is it that has been recomended by some.
Waxoil also but i found with my turbo that it got so hot it all melted.
Dynax S50 another good option for the inside.
Hammerite for the outside
Quote from: "Ardent"Dynax S50 another good option for the inside.
Hammerite for the outside
Thats probably what i was thinking of.
Dinitrol inside & Rustbuster epoxy mastic 121 on the outside.
The latter won Classic Car magazine best that protection product a couple of years back.
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Rust buster epoxy mastic 121 seems the real deal having just googled it. Very tempted with this for the outside. I know waxoil works but not when it's near an exhaust, as scotte says it will probably melt out. I suspect dynax s50 will do the same. I have some acf50 but I don't think this is fit for the job, perhaps too thin.
I've done two coats of black Hammerstein smooth on the outside. Was a bit difficult to see where I was painting first time out admittedly lol.
I also used some spray cavity wax from Toolstation, was about £4 for the can. Guess we'll have to see if it just melts back out but it forms a plasticine like layer. Used it on top of the hammerite for good luck as well
Quote from: "Bodgeroo"I suspect dynax s50 will do the same.
Can confirm no issues with the S50. Plus I running with some extra heat from the turbo.
What do people think about drilling a couple of holes in the bottom at the two lowest points of the subframe allowing any water that may collect inside to drain out?
Thought the same thing. But bottled it.
I did this:
(http://i.imgur.com/VyqJQy2.jpg)
I think this subframe looks sexy.
(http://i.imgur.com/SOehXSV.jpg)
And have just filled it with dynax s50. Looks mint, can't believe it's second hand. Should outlast the car I reckon.
I'm at the same stage - old cross-member came off today. No bolts seized - result! Got a replacement from Rutland MR2. JoeCool what did you use to paint yours in the images above?
EDIT:
Just ordered Dynax S-50, ACF-50 and some Hammerite (black).
I've used rust prevention primer to start on top of Mr T's efforts, then 2 coats of black Hammerite. The weld gaps are sealed with black Tigerseal & the interior sprayed with Dinitrol. Being fitted by Steve at D1 Customs next Friday.
Quote from: "Ouu2"JoeCool what did you use to paint yours in the images above?
I used an engineering shop who media blasted it, prepped it and powdercoated it!! IMO for a hard wearing rust proof finish nothing else comes close. Cost £40 to do, bargain.
I ordered the Hammerite from Amazon last night 9.20pm and selected normal delivery. It just arrived. That's incredible!
Quote from: "lamcote"What do people think about drilling a couple of holes in the bottom at the two lowest points of the subframe allowing any water that may collect inside to drain out?
Nothing wrong with the idea, except (depending on where and how you park up) the lowest point might not be the lowest point... I still maintain that the best way to prevent internal rusting is to seal the thing so water or water vapour can't get in. Yes the exhaust heat does accelerate the rusting process (most chemical reactions are speeded up by heat). However for the oxidation reaction to occur, water and oxygen are required. No water, no oxygen, no reaction.
What are people doing with the rubber bungs? Transferring them over? I have decided not to completely seal it up along the welds. If air can get in then so can water vapour and I would prefer it comes out. It can only do this with ventilation. Reminds me of a loft cavity. Hot and cold temperature differences will cause condensation and it will need ventilation to get rid of any condensation in the crossmember.
I am transferring mine over. Toyotas solution lasts 11+ years. My sub frame is better protected, and will my car be on the road in 2030?
Quote from: "JoeCool"I am transferring mine over. Toyotas solution lasts 11 years without rust. My sub frame is better protected, and will my car be on the road in 2032?
Exactly my thoughts. Bungs being transferred over. Not sealing holes next to welds.
Sealing the thing is going to be impossible IMO. The trouble with moisture is it pumps in and capillary action carries it in, but it can only evaporate out. What generally happens with nearly sealed items heat cycling is that moist air gets drawn in as they cool, the moisture condenses and pools, reheat expands air but leaves moisture pool, repeat until properly wet environment inside. Big vent holes and good internal anti corrosion coating appeal more to me.
One free cross member from a 2004 model with 70k, one careful owner and some slight surface rust. Any takers? s:D :D s:D
View from above
(http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p381/Bodgeroo/IMG_0549_zpsvmjwqpzg.jpg) (http://s345.photobucket.com/user/Bodgeroo/media/IMG_0549_zpsvmjwqpzg.jpg.html)
Below
(http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p381/Bodgeroo/IMG_0547_zps5j4fuguo.jpg) (http://s345.photobucket.com/user/Bodgeroo/media/IMG_0547_zps5j4fuguo.jpg.html)
And some slight rusting
(http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p381/Bodgeroo/IMG_0548_zpsyamuogix.jpg) (http://s345.photobucket.com/user/Bodgeroo/media/IMG_0548_zpsyamuogix.jpg.html)
Thats a bad one.
Threads like this are important to get the message across.
Check your subframe!
Do they all rust in exactly the same place? If so where exactly is it and why is it so catastrophic? Is it simply that water is collecting and pooling inside, leading to it rusting from inside to out?
They appear to rust in the same place, yes. It's the flat spot on the bottom where the suspension arms mount. It's water pooling inside. It's catastrophic because it's a suspension mount point and the MOT man doesn't like it (and of course it's dangerous)
If my 50k mile 06 plate needed a new one then so could anybodies.
I have said it so many times.
Its more important than checking 1zz oil usage.
That isnt going to kill you mid corner.
Just your engine.
I'm going to conduct an experiment. My subframe has been sealed at the corners for over a year. I'm going to drill a hole in the appropriate spot (maybe two (to be sure) and see what comes out.
I'll report my findings
Ok. First, this is all in relation to a Pre Facelift subframe. One must bear in mind that they have different geometries.
I happen to have one that we cut open while experimenting with sub-frames for the supercharger conversion. So I examined that one. It is rusted in the usual place, and you can see the rust from the inside. It turns out that the pre-facelift has a bung right at the premium rust spot:
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20170320_100101.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20170320_100101.jpg.html)
This picture is of the INSIDE of the subframe. Edit: There are two factory done drain holes. You can see one (the smaller hole in this picture). They aren't at the lowest point and don't seem to help...
I then took that bung out of my daily driver that has had the top corners sealed for 18 months. It is a JDM import that has only been exposed to our weather since late 2007, and then had relatively little use until I got it. To my knowledge, and looking at the history that came with the car, this is the original subframe. It is bone dry inside and (by sticking my little finger in and feeling around), there is no rust at the low spot. We rocked the car around. Nothing came out. I then took the bung out from the top, just above the classic rusting place and introduced my endoscope. It's clean, slightly discoloured but no rust. I shall take the opportunity to shoot a little waxoil in there while the bungs are out, and then they are going back.
I have just had a close look at the new facelift subframe I bought a few months ago, not yet fitted.
It has drain holes in it which do appear to be at, or very close to, the two lowest points. As it is raining I haven't yet checked whether the original subframe has these, but I will have a look at some point. It would be interesting if these turned out to be a revised design feature as it may mean the latest subframes should last longer.... Or not!
I do wonder whether wrapping the exhaust where it is closest to the subframe might help to reduce the problem also?
My exhaust is wrapped. Both my cars, and the extra subframe I cut open have drain holes, so I suspect they all have them (given your info on the Facelift ones). My only additional thought is that the presence of an electrolyte greatly accelerates the rusting process. What was my car not exposed to for much of its life? Salt.
As the cars all have drain holes, and as the subframes seem to rust anyway, perhaps it's about salt build-up?
Both my new subframe and old (both post facelift) have exactly the same holes. Interesting though @carolyn my rotten subframe does have signs of salt inside.
So, sealing the top corners would seem to make sense as that's where real road filth can get in. The drain holes should allow for adequate ventilation. Anyway, that's my theory so far - and now we seem to be accumulating evidence, rather than opinion.
I think the presence of salt was due to the gaping hole in mine s:D :D s:D
Yes, this is very helpful. Does the Dynax treatment protect against salt?
As you say Carolyn, if the main culprit is salt, blocking the holes will presumably help because the only way that gets in is from salty water splashing up from the road. The issue raised about water vapour seeping through small gaps and becoming trapped would be less of a concern than the salt ingress.
Do we know if there are similar rusting problems in countries where no salt is used?
It might seem counter-intuitive, but if treating a subframe on the car, it might be best to pull the bungs and wash it out with clean fresh water, let it dry, rust-proof it (treatment of your choice), put the bungs back and seal the corners?
Well mine is from Japan. It rains but they don't salt the roads. It's a 2001 Pre Facelift and it's OK.
Quote from: "lamcote"Do we know if there are similar rusting problems in countries where no salt is used?
Good point. I've put a request for info on Spyderchat.
That would be good intelligence.
In summary it seems to me that if we are protecting against just water you want holes and ventilation.
If we are protecting against salt you want everything sealed up tight.
The trouble is, choose the wrong one and you could actually be accentuating the problem, so the more information the better.
I'm not sure it's quite so black and white. I like the drain hole idea... seems to me the road muck will mostly get in via the holes at the top corners (probably on the nearside where all the splash from the gutter goes)
Having looked at some old threads I think Nylon coating is looking like a good idea.
I was looking at POR15 for the outside and Dinitrol for the inside, but now reading this I might look at other options.
Quote from: "tricky1138"I was looking at POR15 for the outside and Dinitrol for the inside, but now reading this I might look at other options.
"WARNING: THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS CHEMICALS KNOWN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE CANCER, BIRTH DEFECTS OR OTHER REPRODUCTIVE HARM."
From the POR15 website. Careful with that stuff, Trick.
Quote from: "lamcote"Having looked at some old threads I think Nylon coating is looking like a good idea.
FGRob had the one on mine nylon coated so would suggest same as he always did a top job, even made up a heat shield where the exhaust crosses it :-) :-) :-)
Do you have any pics of the heatshield I had wondered about doing that too?
Thanks
Quote from: "lamcote"Do you have any pics of the heatshield I had wondered about doing that too?
Thanks
I'll take a few tomorrow
Great thanks.
Out of interest, that metal heat shield that stands up from the cross member: Any idea what it protects from what? My intake is re-located now, and I'm not sure that heat shield has any utility.
I would tend to agree.
I thought there to act a a barrier between intake pipe and zorst manifold.
If intake pipe in now located elsewhere..
Quote from: "cptspaulding"Quote from: "tricky1138"I was looking at POR15 for the outside and Dinitrol for the inside, but now reading this I might look at other options.
"WARNING: THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS CHEMICALS KNOWN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE CANCER, BIRTH DEFECTS OR OTHER REPRODUCTIVE HARM."
From the POR15 website. Careful with that stuff, Trick.
It's fine we're not in California s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Related question - now I have all the nuts and bolts off and have started to clean them up - which bolts used the nylon lock nuts? I assume these were used as the cam plate nuts?
Not getting anything particularly helpful from Spyderchat (so far) as most of the cars are in the Southwest and they don't rust. It is very 'American' to have a car that is an extra toy for fine weather use, especially in bad weather States. Looking at Stavros58's 'New Clutch' thread, we've got 06's rusting out and early ones not (sometimes). I'm thinking the key may be that some cars are stashed for winter and some are daily drivers driven year round. It does appear to relate to winter use as it is just as wet here regardless of season.
Quote from: "lamcote"Do you have any pics of the heatshield I had wondered about doing that too?
Thanks
As promised and prior to a clean as the last couple of drive ours weren't in decent weather s:-( :-( s:-(
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170321/fcda60ca9fbeca56005a759b2fcbef05.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170321/64dab68a09a40d845332876b4d0d1073.jpg)
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Thanks, do you know what it's made of?
Also does anyone know if you can wrap the flexis on the exhaust?
It's a steel bellows inside the mesh covering, with steel mesh on the inside of that. If the rest of the exhaust is wrapped, it will still be pretty much as hot as the rest of the exhaust. Mine aren't wrapped, but (thinking about it) I can't see it doing that much harm. Having said that, the flexis are often the first part of the cat pipe to give up and leak....
Hmm, on balance maybe not the best idea?
I like the idea of some sort of heat shield though.
The most effective heat shields have an air gap between the shield and the shielded item.
So should it be connected to the exhaust and not the sub frame or does that not really matter?
Quote from: "lamcote"Thanks, do you know what it's made of?
Also does anyone know if you can wrap the flexis on the exhaust?
Just heard from Rob its this
m http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performan ... -barrier-2 (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performance/heat-shielding-protection/cool-it-adhesive-backed-heat-barrier-2) m
Held in place with riveted aluminium strips
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Thanks that's very helpful, looks impressive stuff.
This on Spyder chat from 'Key Techniques':
"There can be corrosion issues with northeast cars that see frequent snow but there is something with the UK weather that has caused my customers grief with my Energy suspension install where the old bushings were corroded on the control arm.
This was not the case in North America as even my Canadian customers had no issues.
There were no issues either in Spain, Germany and the eastern regions. No issues in Asia as a whole."
The mystery deepens, but it tends to confirm that British road filth needs to be kept out.
Quote from: "Carolyn"This on Spyder chat from 'Key Techniques':
"There can be corrosion issues with northeast cars that see frequent snow but there is something with the UK weather that has caused my customers grief with my Energy suspension install where the old bushings were corroded on the control arm.
This was not the case in North America as even my Canadian customers had no issues.
There were no issues either in Spain, Germany and the eastern regions. No issues in Asia as a whole."
The mystery deepens, but it tends to confirm that British road filth needs to be kept out.
Thats Dev who does the keyhole cover and de dimplators.
He knows what he talking about.
Done some more research. Our road 'grit' contains Cheshire rock-salt. While mostly common salt (Sodium Chloride) this contains varieties of 'Potash'. 'Potash is a catch-all term for potassium salts, some of which are quite corrosive. Potash miners use stainless steel tools and equipment because it corrodes steel at some rate.
Well done, very useful, I tend to agree that sealing up those top corners is the way to go.
Makes you wonder what damage is being done by all this salt, surely making winter tyres compulsory would be a better option?
Quote from: "cptspaulding"Rustbuster epoxy mastic 121 on the outside.
The latter won Classic Car magazine best that protection product a couple of years back.
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Just a quick thanks for this post. I have now painted up my subframe with this stuff and it's truly superb! Great recommendation! Once cured it's really tough! Well recommended.
If anyone's interested it was purchased from
m http://Www.rust.co.uk (http://www.rust.co.uk) m
Crap website but ace product!
As a newie looking at buying a facelift MR, the cross member has become my primary concern, which has led me to a number of threads, including this one.
Would it be possible to illustrate some of the points being made? I think people are homing in on an ideal recipe for prolonging the life of the part, it would be good to have a simple guide for people to follow.
i.e. seal here, bung here, spray this here, paint that there etc.
Quote from: "Carolyn"So, sealing the top corners would seem to make sense as that's where real road filth can get in. The drain holes should allow for adequate ventilation. Anyway, that's my theory so far - and now we seem to be accumulating evidence, rather than opinion.
Following our discussion, that's exactly what I've done.
The holes in the top/side are a nightmare. Think about it, the wheels are throwing up water in exactly that area. Those holes are huge and are going to let in loads of it.
I couldn't decide what to fill mine with, so used gun gum and primed. If it's good enough to seal an exhaust permanently, it should be plenty good enough to keep the water out! Another suggestion was engine sealant.
Treated mine entirely with red oxide primer, then hammerite anti-rust, then a liberal coating of waxoyl underbody coating. Waxoyld inside too.
It's probably the one part of the car I'm not going to worry too much about for a while.
I've often wondered about high temperature expanding foam. To be fair, I've not been brave enough to do it. I've dynaxed the inside but will take a look at sealing the holes as described in this thread before next winter. Mine's my daily driver, so is exposed to the worst of winter, including being stuck behind a gritter for miles on the country lanes a couple of times last winter
Quote from: "ferry"As a newie looking at buying a facelift MR, the cross member has become my primary concern, which has led me to a number of threads, including this one.
Would it be possible to illustrate some of the points being made? I think people are homing in on an ideal recipe for prolonging the life of the part, it would be good to have a simple guide for people to follow.
i.e. seal here, bung here, spray this here, paint that there etc.
Tehre isn't really any consensus on 'the best' option yet. Sadly no-one really ahs the ability to properly test what method is optimum.
But in short:
1) Buy a car with a solid sub frame, so it's not an immediate concern. You need to pull the rear under tra off to insect it fully. See this thread for reference to where they fail ad how. Note it's the underside that goes, where the suspension arms join it.
2) If your sub frame is good, protect it. Paint the outside, put some kind of rust protection on the inside.
3) Keep a close eye on it.
4) If it's not good, start sourcing a replacement, be it a new one from Toymota (£300) or a good second hand one (there are breakers who will sort you out).
How easy (or not) would it be to paint /treat it in situ?
I had a new one fitted last year by Steve at D1, he treated in inside and out, but obviously worth keeping an eye on it.
The underneath is easy enough with the nappy off. Some of the top can be done and arguably, you could waxoyl the inside if you're happy that it's dry.
But the danger bits, i.e. the edge gaps, not so much.
Quote from: "The Other Stu"Quote from: "Carolyn"So, sealing the top corners would seem to make sense as that's where real road filth can get in. The drain holes should allow for adequate ventilation. Anyway, that's my theory so far - and now we seem to be accumulating evidence, rather than opinion.
Following our discussion, that's exactly what I've done.
The holes in the top/side are a nightmare. Think about it, the wheels are throwing up water in exactly that area. Those holes are huge and are going to let in loads of it.
I couldn't decide what to fill mine with, so used gun gum and primed. If it's good enough to seal an exhaust permanently, it should be plenty good enough to keep the water out! Another suggestion was engine sealant.
Treated mine entirely with red oxide primer, then hammerite anti-rust, then a liberal coating of waxoyl underbody coating. Waxoyld inside too.
It's probably the one part of the car I'm not going to worry too much about for a while.
Do the gaps allow for any form of drainage? To be honest I'm not sure if all the original rubber bungs made it back onto my replacement, but it's had two decent coats of hammerite and a cavity waxing.
I gave up on science after GCSEs but just wondering if there would be any acceleration of interior rust if it's not got some manner of ability to 'breathe', for lack of a better term, given it's hollow?
The side gaps are at the top. The water should drain through the bottom in the middle, where the bungs are.
But what happens in reality is that you park it slightly not on the flat, and the water all gathers in one of the bottom corners rather than going out through the bungs.
Just to put this in perspective, my car is 13 years old on Sunday.....taaaraaaa! s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
The subframe is still the original from new. About 5/6 years ago the rotting subframe issue came to light so I used rust treatment on the rust spots on the outside that I could get at, and then sprayed the outside with Dinitrol, took the bungs out from the top & gave the interior a good coating of Dinitrol too. All bungs were then replaced, but nothing else was done. I
Last year I decided to invest in a new subframe from Mr T. to ensure I've got one available, when & if the time arrises s:D :D s:D This has been treated to Hammerite on the outside, the weld gaps have been sealed with black Tiger Seal and the inside treated with Dinitrol. This is now sitting in my garage but it is not on the car s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
A couple of months ago I was with Steve at D1 Customs and we checked out the original subframe whilst the car was up on the ramp. Would you believe not a spec of rust and it looked like new. It was then sprayed with underseal and left in situ....it should last for many years to come, hopefully s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
So the moral of the story is, a fully treated subframe should last for many years and could probably outlive the life of the car s:D :D s:D
Bye the way, the car passed its MOT yesterday and the Toyota Technician (that's the posh term) advised me that Mr T do now check subframes for rust - maybe a back street MOT station won't bother.
Mr T might, but your regular MOT bloke a) isn't going to know to look for it and b) the nappy hid mine.
Genuinely, look where the nappy is and the holes appear. It's almost impossible to see without removing the nappy!
I checked mine as well as I could when I bought it, but it was only removing the nappy and getting it up on a lift that we actually spotted where the huge hole was!
Quote from: "The Other Stu"Mr T might, but your regular MOT bloke a) isn't going to know to look for it and b) the nappy hid mine.
Genuinely, look where the nappy is and the holes appear. It's almost impossible to see without removing the nappy!
I checked mine as well as I could when I bought it, but it was only removing the nappy and getting it up on a lift that we actually spotted where the huge hole was!
Exactly, that's why I mentioned it s:wink: :wink: s:wink: & yes the only thorough way of checking is from underneath with all plastics removed & that's why I was so pleased when mine was revealed in all its glory on Steve's ramp s:D :D s:D
Picking up new subframe today (& arb and drop links). From this thread, I'm going to go with Rustbuster epoxy mastic 121 outside and dynax s50 inside (if I can find/get them). Any advice on whether or not there would be any preparation before treating, if it's a brand new part? (cleaning, degreasing, something else?), and any other comments or recommendations about treatment products?
Good question. The subframes from Toyota now seem to come painted black. Is it possible to rust proof over the top of this paint? I assume this is a new thing? If so, do you treat it differently to the older silver ones?
I would think roughing the surface a little, a coat of good primer and then a couple of coats of a good durable paint should suffice.
Quote from: "lamcote"The subframes from Toyota now seem to come painted black
Yeah, wasn't expecting that, although looking on arch bishops thread I think I see a black subframe with a manufacturer's label now. Here's what mines looks like
(http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b442/delhusband/IMG_20170729_092912_zps1ktofsug.jpg) (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/delhusband/media/IMG_20170729_092912_zps1ktofsug.jpg.html)
Quote from: "Carolyn"coat of good primer and then a couple of coats of a good durable paint
Cheers, any paint / primer recommendations? Don't want to skimp (not a millionaire either mind after today's purchase s:) :) s:)
There are a few recommendations earlier in this thread, which is worth reading through, there's a lot of info....
Quote from: "delhusband"Quote from: "lamcote"The subframes from Toyota now seem to come painted black
Yeah, wasn't expecting that, although looking on arch bishops thread I think I see a black subframe with a manufacturer's label now. Here's what mines looks like
(http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b442/delhusband/IMG_20170729_092912_zps1ktofsug.jpg) (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/delhusband/media/IMG_20170729_092912_zps1ktofsug.jpg.html)
Quote from: "Carolyn"coat of good primer and then a couple of coats of a good durable paint
Cheers, any paint / primer recommendations? Don't want to skimp (not a millionaire either mind after today's purchase s:) :) s:)
Is that a brand spanking new ARB?
How much do Toyota want for that?
'tis indeed. Iasked about prices for a whole bunch of things and got offered a bundle. £312 for s' frame, blueprint droplinks and arb, which I was well chuffed with. I see whiteline arb is about £130
(http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b442/delhusband/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170729_140333_zpstyvbtgrm_edit_1501333938583_zpsjgypx472.jpg) (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/delhusband/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170729_140333_zpstyvbtgrm_edit_1501333938583_zpsjgypx472.jpg.html)
Quote from: "delhusband"'tis indeed. Iasked about prices for a whole bunch of things and got offered a bundle. £312 for s' frame, blueprint droplinks and arb, which I was well chuffed with. I see whiteline arb is about £130
Great price subframe is around 300 on its own.
Quote from: "Carolyn"I would think roughing the surface a little, a coat of good primer and then a couple of coats of a good durable paint should suffice.
I'm clearly learning from you! I would have said the same.
Also fill the ends. Carolyn advised it and when you look at the design, it makes perfect sense.
I couldn't find anything really that suitable in Halfrauds, so I bought exhaust putty filler which seems like grand stuff and allowed me to paint it (Orange)
Yesterday replaced mine, and after much reading the above I used dynax on the inside, black heat resistant outer, numerous coats lol... also had to replace a suspension arm. Huge hole in the old frame, but it now has a sexy black posterior that will hopefully outlast me! Well pleased. s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Dynax s50 is £17.95 on ebay. When I sprayed mine I used too much. I think around 60% of the can is probably enough. Anyone else have a view?