[strike:1vna45n6]Un[/strike:1vna45n6]fortunately, it's happened to me. I have developed an intense urge to start modifying my '2.
I've gone the whole hog and renamed one of my savings account to 'Car Funds' and now the fun begins. I'm doing 12 hour shifts on over time this weekend so to kick it off, how can I get the absolute best from my cars' handling initially for £600. Since I'm not very knowledgeable about what all the different components do, If someone could give a recommendation or even put a shopping list together for me for parts to get the absolute best (best for the money, not necessarily most expensive parts) from my cars' handling then I would reaaaly appreciate that.
Currently, the car is pretty standard. It has no bracing other than the standard facelift bracing, it sits on Toyo T1Rs and is lowered with what I believer are TTE springs.
I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to suspension parts/ride setup configurations so if people could give me a brief outline of what I need and what the part is designed to do it would be a real help. As well as learning about the car, I love learning about what different parts do. Once I have the parts I need, I intend to get a good quality geo setup.
Any help would be appreciated greatly.
Cheers guys!
P.S. I saw a Z3 last night on my way home from work which flat out 'out-handled' my '2. I knew it was modified by the way it zipped round a fairly large roundabout at speed, with absolutely no body roll, and not a squirm from its back end. As it scooted away, I noticed that 'bounce' you see in cars with modified suspension when you know that every small bump in the road is bouncing the driver around in his seat... maybe I'm strange but I like the look that bounce.
Tyres Yoko Advan AD08R
A mid brace matts tte style if you can get one.
Coilovers i have meister r zeta r on 2 different mr2s now and i like them.
Get a full geo done by a proper outfit. Wheels in motion are very good. They can give you a fast road setup. More aggressive than Toyota stock.
Edit
Getting done by a Z4 is just not on.
#justsayin
BC coilovers are a popular choice and I have them on my roadster. Second hand sets come up for sale so if you can wait. you might save a few quid!
Your Toyo's aren't the very best, but they certainly are not bad. Many members use them on these cars - including me. I would definitely keep them until wear requires the tyres changing.
A "Matt brace" is a great idea, they come up for sale here, and on eBay. You can't buy new ones as they are no longer produced.
The 'problem' with suspension upgrades is that you really do need to take a fairly holistic approach. Upgrading one part will expose weaknesses or wear in others, and so it's easy to get sucked into a spiral of rising costs. Suspension works as a system from Tyre to chassis and there are a lot of components!
In order of bang for buck, I'd put upgrades in roughly this order:
- Getting rid of oversize or overweight wheels
- Geometry set up (Inc. Potentially camber bolts for the rear)
- Tyres (Yokohama Advan AD08R's!)
- Front Strut Brace
- Either new Dampers and springs or quality Coilovers
- Poly Bushing Suspension components
- Other Bracing
- Lighter wheels
- Stiffer Anti Roll Bar (Front mainly).
Really, I would say you need to make some firm decisions as to what you want to spend (£600 is a good starting point but that can get swallowed up on JUST tyres or coilovers, so you need to work out your total budget to make sensible decisions) and most importantly what your intended and current use of the car is. If the car will never see track time and is a daily commuter, I'd still advise away from things like rose jointed suspension and coilovers, and towards a more compliant set up.
I'm actually very impressed with my Meister R coilovers in that they're comfortable in normal use - and my general opinion on Coilovers is that they ruin
most cars by being too cheap, badly specified, too stiff and badly set up. Not the case with Meister R's at least, but you need to decide if the compromise to ride quality and Noise and comfort are worth it for you. If my car was a daily driver or my only car, I probably wouldn't fit coilovers to it.
So once you have a clear end point and cost, you can begin to build your parts list.
As an idea of where this can go, I consider my suspension 'done' and my build list with everything required handling wise is:
- Yokohama Advan AD-08R Tyres 225/50R16 Rear and 205/50R16 Front £400
- OZ Ultreleggera 16" Alloy wheels. £250
- Meister R coilovers £795
- New Front Lower Steering UJ £100
- New (refurbished) rear sub frame £160 Second hand + powder coating
- New standard front lower arms - £100 shipped from America Via Ebay
- Whiteline front ARB £135 New but second hand including Poly Bushes
- New GT-4Play polybushed rear control arms £135 via Facebook offer
- Hard race rear toe arms £135
- Rear camber bolts £20
- TRD Strut braces front and rear £340 the pair used on here inc. refurbishment.
- Cusco copy front lower brace £60 Shipped from US as part of a big order for my engine swap.
- New front Drop Links £Free came with the front ARB
- New rear drop links £13 from China via Ebay!!
- New Nuts and bolts from Toyota During Suspension Refurb: £100
- Alignment at Wheels in Motion £110
So my total cost for suspension refurbishment Chassis>Tyre is
£2853And I hate you for making me add that up. Make your decisions first or you'll end up where I am!!!
Thank you so much for the advice guys. JoeCool, I really wasn't expecting so much! I really do appreciate it!
The car is mainly a daily drive but I do have other vehicles. I have yet to take it to the track since I still see weak areas, even on the road. But it will get there eventually.
I do not have many joys in life but driving truely is one of them. I'm prepared to spend what it costs to get my car driving the way I want it. And when I consider my car drives the way I wish it to drive, I will then be looking to turn my attention to the engine. It makes sense to me to work on the chassis performance before looking to make power upgrades.
Some questions I have straight away: What is the benefit of rear camber bolts and why do you reccommend an ARB for the front moreso than the rear?
Thanks guys.
I use mine as a daily.
I'm on
- AD08R tyres
- BC coilovers
- matt center brace
- front and rear strut braces
- rear camber bolts at -2deg camber
As said, if you do coilovers (which I think are absolutely fine for daily but I can see how others may find it stiff), stick with rubber top mounts and maybe softer springs (4kg front 6kg rear)
Order for me would be
- AD08R tyres
- Matt's brace
- front strut brace
- coilovers.
.. The rest.
That sounds like a really good starting point.
With the BC and Meister R coilovers is it personal preference which are better or is there a noticeable difference in quality?
Will this help control body roll or do I need to couple these with ARBs to get full benefit? I feel that there is too much body roll in the MR2 as mine is at the moment. Maybe that or my seats just aren't holding me in position very well which adds to the feeling of body roll.
I forgot IMO the most Important thing and best bang for buck: Driver training. At the 'ring this week I was being chased around by my mate in a 170k mile BMW 323i auto... The difference being he's a rally driver!
Anyway: front ARB is not to reduce roll but actually to balance the car and combat oversteer. It's was a bit experimental on my car but I'm very happy with the results. I know the MR2 racing guys fit a stiffer front ARB and actually remove the rear ARB altogether for this reason. Anyway, I wouldn't consider it essential, I just found one at the right price.
Camber bolts are essential at the rear because you can't adjust camber without them, and it's a fundamental tweak for geometry.
Yes, coilovers will do their bit to reduce body roll, as will lowering the car slightly. But less roll doesn't necessarily equal more grip, it can be a useful handling trait.
Basically, in your position, I'd be looking to have a go in as many coilover and suspension upgraded cars as possible to work out what you want and what is 'too far' in terms of compromises.
And tyres and driver training as a first port of call. No point making changes if you don't know what you want from them or what your goals are.
Oh, and I know I'm going to get slated for this, but personally and after consultation with a few people who actually have engineering degrees, I haven't fitted a mid section brace and don't see how they can do what people claim they can do. There isn't the ability to brace what is already a strong section of the car with a few bolts and a long bit of steel. Front lower brace, yes: it locates suspension pick up points to the chassis rails, but not that kdi section brace. So I don't have w mid section brace on my car. If I wanted to strengthen it I'd be welding in box section steel across the flooring between the 'rails' in the chassis.
Thanks JoeCool. Your advice is sound.
One thing that particularly grates on me is the amount of 'Safe understeer' you seem to get with this car. Obviously the correct turn in speed and braking is key to getting the correct sort of steering that you want but I cant help but feel this has something to do with the cars current geometry. How tweakable is this with a different geo setting while still keeping that small safety margin?
I don't get understeer. I think that often people run front tyre pressures too high which reduces the contact patch and promotes understeer, and also poor tyres. And of course setting the car up into a bend properly with weight transfer. But you can check my Nurburgring laps... My car does not understeer! It's perfectly neutral, and you can steer it on the throttle mid bend. Yes, geometry can help this, but grippy front tyres and the right tyre pressures will give most impact to turn in.
I think I really need some AD08Rs in my life right now... I think this will be my first port of call, and then I'll look at bracing, then possibly coilovers. I think this is a reasonable starting point.
It's a shame I've got 4 nearly new Toyo T1Rs on...
You could sell them. Or buy a second set of alloys and put the good tyres on them, then you can use the T1r's when you fancy it and save the AD08R's for Sunday best.
I actually used to run worse tyres on trackdays in my Mk1 MR2, and save my good tyres for the road. No one is timing your laps and they don't hand out trophies, and with the high grip surfaces on track you're a bit closer to road levels of grip on worse tyres anyway. Plus it's more fun if the car moves around a bit when you're exploring the limits in a safe environment.
There are sets of standard alloys for £50. Buy them, refurbish them, and put decent rubber on them. Win.
My alloys do need a refurb...
I could keep my T1Rs on my cruddy alloys, get some new ones refurbed with AD08Rs.
Win.
Quote from: "JoeCool"Oh, and I know I'm going to get slated for this, but personally and after consultation with a few people who actually have engineering degrees, I haven't fitted a mid section brace and don't see how they can do what people claim they can do. There isn't the ability to brace what is already a strong section of the car with a few bolts and a long bit of steel. Front lower brace, yes: it locates suspension pick up points to the chassis rails, but not that kdi section brace. So I don't have w mid section brace on my car. If I wanted to strengthen it I'd be welding in box section steel across the flooring between the 'rails' in the chassis.
It makes loads off difference imho.
Cant have enough bracing.
WTF do i know, i dont have any degrees not a one.
Just more miles in Roadsters in 3 years than most do in 10.
I knew I'd get slated for it and many people love them.... Perhaps I should try it. But frankly I think I've spent enough!
Quote from: "JoeCool"I knew I'd get slated for it and many people love them.... Perhaps I should try it. But frankly I think I've spent enough!
You are entitled to your opinion.
I know it made a differnece to my car.
As did the front strut brace.
As did the rear strut brace. Which most people think is pony.
I agree 100% with driver training best bang for buck without a doubt.
I wonder what made your car respond to the rear brace and not mine. Unless it's the fact that you have/had a proper trd rear brace and mine is an eBay special (I think)
Did literally nothing to mine.
Oddly enough, I'm considering removing mine.
I think it does something, but not necessarily what it claims to do.
Quote from: "JoeCool"I knew I'd get slated for it and many people love them!
Are we talking Matt's replica brace here ?
Quote from: "wotugonado"Quote from: "JoeCool"I knew I'd get slated for it and many people love them!
Are we talking Matt's replica brace here ?
We were but now am not sure if we are on about the rear brace.
Quote from: "wotugonado"Quote from: "JoeCool"I knew I'd get slated for it and many people love them!
Are we talking Matt's replica brace here ?
Yep, I was anyway. And I've done a bit more research and I think I might have a better understanding of why everyone raves about them. It looks like they brace the central tunnel into a box section, which makes sense, but I'm still not sure about the long X brace out to the chassis rails. I think a corky style breast plate should do much the same with less weight penalty. I'll do some more research.
With respect to the rear brace, I can't really comment as I did all my upgrades in one. But the TRD brace is proper engineering, whilst the Toyota X brace.... I can bend with my hands. Plus Toyota's approach to bracing appears to be to bolt single arms everywhere with one bolt at each end... Not great for computing torsional flexing....
Anyway, it's a side issue to this debate: some bracing is probably a good idea.
Matt's replica brace is IMO the best, if you don't have your hardtop on especially. It stiffened the whole car and reduced scuttle shake an enormous amount, but I guess with hardtop or roof up it negates it slightly. The rear brace did nothing for me, I have driven without one with the standard x brace and an ultra racing one and noticed no difference in any option.
Just looked back at the SP price list.
The brace we now call the "Matt brace" was listed as the "TTE floorpan reinforcement brace"
Some how, some where, this has morphed into being called a "chassis brace".
As I understand it the chassis sits outside of the brace points of contact/fixing.
Therefore I agree with JoeCool and the original description. "floor pan"
I also agree with wotugonado that it's reduced scuttle shake. That was my most significant observation once fitted. And if, for that alone, a worthwhile mod.
I will have mine removed at next service and observe how it handles on my favorite circuit.
Coilovers + nearly new T1r vs AD08r? Hmm I would think about that before making a decision....
Imho there is no point having coilovers with t1r.
All the rigidity you gain from softer springs you loose in the side walls.
Also whaterever tyre MRroadie2 has on his car are the same.
Nice stiff yellowspeed coilovers but the side walls visably flex when you push on a corner.
Nothing wrong with t1r but dont kid yourself they are even close to AD08R.
Nice for ride comfort and crusing though.
Well I've bought myself a set of AD08Rs and now I need a set of FL alloys to get them on. I'll do a side by side comparison (switching out sets not two on drivers side two on passenger side s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ) and I'll work up from there!
Anyone have any hardcore evidence if one set is better in the coilover deptartment - BC vs MeisterR vs Yellow speed?
Find someone to give you a ride. Only way you'll know what is acceptable to you. It's too subjective otherwise, and no one is really willing to stand up and say their £700 coilovers are 'rubbish'. You might find the lowering springs you already have are what's right for you.
I am happy with my meistr r.
Plenty of people had a ride in mine and then bought a set.
Some regret it.
In all honesty, if I had to do it again, from the short drives I've had in 2 different cars on MeisterRs vs my BC (one being Scotte's), I'd go for the new MeisterRs next time.
There's not a single thing wrong with the BCs at all, and I absolutely love mine and wouldn't get rid of them. But the Meisters seemed that little bit more UK-road-friendly. Especially up here in Northumberland.
The difference is very minimal though.
I went for BC because of the replaceable parts. Each component can be purchased separately if need be. And the BCs have a bit more history than the Meisters, but that's quickly catching up.
I've heard only two reviews of the YellowSpeeds and both are very positive. The only thing I will say is that the YellowSpeeds don't have the best bracket for the brake lines. But that's it.
Need hear to from grant as he has yellow speed on his pfl but now has meistr on the turbo.