Hi guys. On my road to seeking more from my '2 it got me wondering...
At what power/torque limits do things need changing/upgrading?
I've been looking at getting more power from my '2 to stop me from swapping it for something with a little more oomph. This lead me down the path I've just taken and decided to turbo my 1ZZ roadster.
While looking at figures and reading information on this forum, I see that there are a few turbo 1ZZ roadsters with a range of powers.
Starting with the standard power moving upwards, at what power/torque levels do you have to start to upgrade things such as (and please feel free to add things I've missed. The more information the better!):-
-Clutch
-injectors
-valves
-rods
-pistons
-other engine components?
-induction??
-cooling??
-gearbox
-fuel pump
-other stuff???
For example....: 'I want to turbo my roadster and I'd like to hit the magic figure of 260bhp and 240ft/lbs. What upgrades over standard will I need to be able to make my goal'
I know this is a little bit of an open ended question because you could say with infinite money, any amount of power is possible, but I've decided that I'm going to keep my '2 FOREVER because It's just a great car and I'd like to know what my options are and just generally increase my knowledge of these little beasts.
I know these things will have been mentioned over the years in various posts, but to have all the information in one topic with a title that can easily be searched will be very useful for me and might be useful for other new members who might be thinking about these things.
Cheers guys.
The stock engine with high compression cast pistons and thin rods are ok for around 220bhp, gearbox should be ok to 250ft/lbs - gears 3 and 4 are weak and the Lotus guys usually break theirs fairly regularly.
I am going for mid 300s with my 1zz, will be running stock crank (think its good for about 600 as its forged), but upgraded rods and pistons. There are 2 options for pistons, either keep the close to stock bore and go to 79.5mm or bore the engine out and run 82mm pistons but then you would need Darton sleeves. I will be upgrading the 3rd and 4th gears in my C64 box to cope with the extra torque/peace of mind.
Other option is the 2zz swap which is quite common, there is also the K swap but not as common over here but is in the states.
My suggestions would be to run a low boost turbo setup, check out leethesparky's thread for a good setup.
Don't forget to also factor in the cost of a standalone ECU and dyno time.
-Clutch - needs upgrading and perhaps run a lighter flywheel
-injectors - run 2zz injectors or I believe VXR injectors fit with a small mod
-valves - Supertech lighter valves with upgraded springs and retainers to increase the RPM
-rods - Need to be upgraded to forged, stock rods are lightweight but can bend under boost
-pistons - Need to be upgraded due to the economy design - they are cast with the top ringland being close to the crown so can crack
-other engine components? ARP head studs, forced induction camshaft
-induction?? - Stock airbox with drop in is good, open cone isn't the best due to engine bay temps
-cooling?? - Mishimoto upgrades available
-gearbox - Weak 3rd and 4th gear, upgrade to E153 box (although heavier, expensive with poor ratios) or upgrade 3rd and 4th with the JUBA or SSR gearset
-fuel pump - Uprated Walbro fuel pump will suffice, best to upgrade to a return fuel system
-other stuff??? - ECU, Dyno time, Better brakes, Wideband O2 gauge
An alternative route is to increase the power to weight by removing weight from the car - its easier to do than modding the engine too much, I have already pulled a fair amount of weight out of my car and it still looks basically stock.
The above list need not all be done, remember s:) :) s:)
Depends on what you're going for.
You won't need the valves/cams if you're staying 1zz and going turbo. Unless you plan to squeeze out the last 20hp, over the turbo increase, out of aggressive cams.
The SP240 turbo kit runs 230-240hp stable without any engine or gearbox gear work, fuel pumps, increased water cooling, etc. So 260, as long as torque is limited to the magical 250ft/lb, should be achievable on stock (refreshed) parts.
Obviously, the more you do to protect the engine, the more reliable it should be. (if reliability can even be discussed when talking about doubling power output)
A few years ago, a young friend brought me a Skyline engine for rebuilding. He had, of course, managed to blow it up. When asked 'How much horsepower can you get out of this ?', I replied 'How long do you want it to last?'
Usually a case of: Cheap, Fast, Reliable - pick 2.
With regards to the valves and cams, I think I would want to run slightly uprated springs if I was going for an RPM increase to avoid valve float but the stock springs and valves should be fine at stock rpms.
Quote from: "m1tch"Usually a case of: Cheap, Fast, Reliable - pick 2.
With regards to the valves and cams, I think I would want to run slightly uprated springs if I was going for an RPM increase to avoid valve float but the stock springs and valves should be fine at stock rpms.
Why would you want an rpm increase with a turbo setup? Surely the redline stock is already well into the very low efficiency margins of the turbo flow map for most suitable turbos.
Unless you run a bigger turbo at low boost maybe.. Dunno
Can only speak of the tte setup, that mimics precisely what shnaz describes. Out of puff, long before the red line.
Thanks for the replies guys.
I've started down this winding path to turbo-dom and I just have the figure of 260 bhp in my head. If I can get there with out massively upgrading the engine then I'm happy with that. Currently looking at finding the correct injectors on fuelperformance, the AEM 30-0300 wideband and the ACT HDSS on another site to get me there.
On a side note, I've heard before the Astra VXR injectors fit with a modification... 1) will they get me to 260 bhp without running them to the max 2) does the modification require some plastics shaving and the plug and play EV6 connnectors?
You want to have a look at stupinks build thread regarding the vxr injectors...
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Lotus Exige 440cc injectors are plug and play. That's what I have on my setup, running just over 270bhp, so am sure they'd suit your intentions.
What's the cost of the lotus Vs the vxrs though?
And where's your build thread??
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
I wonder if these are the ones in Helen's SP240...
Quote from: "jvanzyl"What's the cost of the lotus Vs the vxrs though?
And where's your build thread??
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Couldn't tell you I'm afraid. The injectors were purchased by the previous owner some years ago. However, if you have to purchase/produce adapters for the VXR ones, factor that in to the cost comparison.
My build thread only has my older HASS setup. I really need to get my act together and update it with the Apexi kit. It's on the list, honest!
I think I have 440cc lotus ones in mine. There's not a lot of information online on the ones I have but I'm sure they're 440cc. I just thought these wouldn't be capable of putting out more that 240bhp. I've got the apexi FC too.
The past number on the injector is 23250-yw201 and ive already fitted them. They just plugged straight in.
MWR rates the 440cc at 235hp (at the wheels) without FPR and fuel return and 265 with FPR and fuel return.
So if you want to achieve 260, you're probably better off going for the vxrs
Will the VXR make 260 without pushing them too hard?
440 injectors will make well over 240 bhp at the crank.
SP would have allowed plenty of head room and their kits made 235 no problem.
I think 400-500cc injectors are as big as you can go on most piggyback ECU.
Any bigger and you need standalone.
A rising rate FPR and a fuel return would be best for high power scenarios.
I thought the Apexi Power FC was a stand alone?
Sorry, I'm a newb when it comes to this.
I'm after 260 at the wheels and I'd like to make sure they're not maxed out so allowing a little wiggle room.
Quote from: "woodypk"I thought the Apexi Power FC was a stand alone?
Sorry, I'm a newb when it comes to this.
I'm after 260 at the wheels and I'd like to make sure they're not maxed out so allowing a little wiggle room.
Pfc is indeed a standalone. While being very well proven and used, bear in mind it's getting on a bit and there are better alternatives.
260 at the wheels I would go bigger than 440
470 should do absolutely fine long term
Quote from: "woodypk"I thought the Apexi Power FC was a stand alone?
Sorry, I'm a newb when it comes to this.
I'm after 260 at the wheels and I'd like to make sure they're not maxed out so allowing a little wiggle room.
It is.
260 at the wheels that's a lot.
Does the sp240 kit give a bhp figure quoted at the wheels or is this a crank figure which turns out lower at the wheel once drivetrain losses are taken into consideration?
Quote from: "woodypk"Does the sp240 kit give a bhp figure quoted at the wheels or is this a crank figure which turns out lower at the wheel once drivetrain losses are taken into consideration?
It's at the flywheel.
I didn't expect that. I thought that would have been what it would read on the dyno. Which I assume is power measured at the wheel.
Quote from: "woodypk"I didn't expect that. I thought that would have been what it would read on the dyno. Which I assume is power measured at the wheel.
It is rare that a UK power figure is quoted at the wheels.
That is far more common is the USA and Australia.
I prefer whp I believe it to be a more accurate figure.
Fly/crank numbers are all very approximate. No rolling road can get it 100%
Wow really?
I thought all dyno results showed the power measured at the wheels. Since that's where the power is tested from when they put it on the rolling road.
You learn something new every day...
Quote from: "woodypk"Wow really?
I thought all dyno results showed the power measured at the wheels. Since that's where the power is tested from when they put it on the rolling road.
You learn something new every day...
I think the idea behind it is that it is easier to compare to manufacturers figures.
I would also go with a hub dyno rather than a rolling road dyno as then its the power actually going to the wheels (irrespective of traction of the tyres on the drum) - flywheel horsepower is a calculated metric much like bhp (torque and bhp must crossover at 5,252 rpm).
A turbo'd 1zz is very fun. As mentioned it seems, 220-240 is safe on stock internals.
A TTE kit runs a cast manifold, t25 flange tb2559, running 9.7 psi Max. That's with a free flowing exhaust and high flow element in the standard air box. Standard 1zz injectors and a piggy back. TTE with sports cat and high flow exhaust runs around 200hp and 210ish ft lb. more than enough for fun in a 980kg car, injectors are maxed out at this level as is the air filtration though.
A good condition stock clutch can take that boost, but more than low 200 ft lb's it will slip.
Crank as mentioned I am told is good, rods good up to mid 200's.
To get 240ish you will need to upgrade to 2zz or any other larger injectors, free flowing induction over a base kit (you'll need an ecu and remap anyway).
I'm going for 260+ at the moment (although upgrades will be good for over 300, but Can;t go that high without killing the box, I will upgrade the box at some point). I'm currently upgrading to a gt28rs turbo, with a rebuild on forged rods and the latest design OE pistons. Have been told stock pistons are good for 320, but rods are weak and you risking it with 260+, hence forging is good. I am told at this level a bigger IC or chargecooler is required for best efficiency and space limits a good charge cooler would be best. I'm currently upgrading to a charge cooler. You'd need a decent clutch pack too, mine is an ACT, but there are plenty of options online for performance clutch packs.
I think you can use quite a few aftermarket ECU solutions, but link storm G4 seems to be the favoured. If you want to run higher power don't get a TTE piggy back (if you managed to find one), they aren't mappable, hence changing mine to a G4.
You'll also need a decent electronic boost controller to change the default wastegate pressure.
When my car is complete I hope it drives well. A turbo'd 1zz running around 200hp / Ft lb seems to be the sweet spot, makes for a very fun and involving car, I've had loads of fun at that level. Although something like a tb2559 (popular in Saab's so easy to find on the second hand market) spool just before 3k but run out of puff at 6k. It makes the car very fun, someone told me it drives like a very torquey diesel, and I agree.
Sadly the muppet I bought my car from flogged it on to me after a few months of ownership due to an oil consumption problem - guess he didn't have the cash to fix it, but his loss is my gain, this car build will cost me in total about half that of a decent vx220 turbo, and will be a much better car. So anyway, it needed a rebuild anyway, so may as well go the whole hog and upgrade everything s:) :) s:)
Get a 1zz turbo, you won't regret it!
Thanks for the information Steve.
Almost done with my install.
I was mistaken before. I mentioned looking for 260whp but I didn't realise the dyno give figures at the crank. It seems I'm looking to get 260bhp on the dyno readout which probably means more like 220-230 at the wheels.
Do you think it would be possible to run a manual boost controller over an electronic one?
Quote from: "woodypk"Thanks for the information Steve.
Almost done with my install.
I was mistaken before. I mentioned looking for 260whp but I didn't realise the dyno give figures at the crank. It seems I'm looking to get 260bhp on the dyno readout which probably means more like 220-230 at the wheels.
Do you think it would be possible to run a manual boost controller over an electronic one?
No reason why you can't run a manual boost control, however the electronic boost controllers are going to be far more programmable as you can set boost by gear as well as vary the boost in car rather than having to go into the engine bay and guess the right setting on the manual one.
But is there Any reason to want to change the. Boost once it's set?
I've heard that the Greddy Profec electronic boost controller is good but it's very pricey when compared to a manual one. Are there any other cheap but reliable options?
Profec is expensive because is a very clever bit of kit. As said, it allows for boost per gear etc. This can save your gearbox. I believe Leethesparky is running one still in combination with his emanage ecu. He's done it all himself and it's stable
Manual controllers (if you get a good one!) are absolutely fine but you get a much more binary boost experience. Your foot is the Profec s:) :) s:)
Don't get a cheap eBay manual controller. They all look the same but they're not. A bad one can cause horrible boost spikes or leaks.
Quote from: "woodypk"Thanks for the information Steve.
Almost done with my install.
I was mistaken before. I mentioned looking for 260whp but I didn't realise the dyno give figures at the crank. It seems I'm looking to get 260bhp on the dyno readout which probably means more like 220-230 at the wheels.
Do you think it would be possible to run a manual boost controller over an electronic one?
Nice, fast progress then! Look forward to the update s:) :) s:)
The other chaps are right, but the only manual one I would use is something like a turbo smart, but they are fine.
Are there any cheaper and reliable versions of the electronic boost controller. I've seen the turbosmart manual controller is about £65 on eBay and the profec is around £180.
I've never had a turbo car so I'm not sure what an electronic boost controller vs a manual one would feel like so I'm happy to go with anything that works and is realiable.
I will admit, I had purchased a manual boost controller 'fleeBay special' which after reading this, I won't be using. Thanks for the heads up btw guys...
180 is cheap as chips!
The Profec is good but it isn't the most feature-full controller.
But it does what you need; overboost warning and protection, boost control, different profiles.
It doesn't do boost by gear, by rpm, external factors protection triggered by temperature etc etc.
But overall it adds a lot over a manual controller.
Overboost protection can't be overrated. I know this for a fact and sadly from experience!
Is this something that a tuner will setup when I take the car to be mapped? And I'm guessing if so, it will cost more for the mapping the more there is for the tuner to do.
Definitely worth mentioning that's for sure. This is where inputs into the ecu of choice matter.
If the car is mapped to boost, then changing boost will throw the tune off. But once you include maps based on maf/map values then the tune automatically chooses the relevant part of the map to run.
So if run a high boost profile on your controller, it measures the airflow/density/pressure and picks where on the map it needs to be.
If you're doing fueling based on throttle/rpm, then it won't know what boost you're running. So it can only assume whatever value you mapped it with.
That's just stupid s:) :) s:)
So in short; yes mention it to get advise, but they should be able to map it based on air/fuel ratio. Not throttle/rpm. So whatever tune you get will work for any boost you choose within the limits of the tune.
Quote from: "woodypk"Are there any cheaper and reliable versions of the electronic boost controller. I've seen the turbosmart manual controller is about £65 on eBay and the profec is around £180.
I've never had a turbo car so I'm not sure what an electronic boost controller vs a manual one would feel like so I'm happy to go with anything that works and is realiable.
I will admit, I had purchased a manual boost controller 'fleeBay special' which after reading this, I won't be using. Thanks for the heads up btw guys...
There is nothing really wrong with a manual boost controller, you just need to make sure you check your boost guage with how you have set it - basically it bleeds off boost from the boost line going to the wastegate (which controls the overall level of boost by rerouting exhaust gasses). On a manual boost controller it simply bleeds off a set amount from the line, example might be that 1 click or turn might be enough boost bled off to increase the boost by 2psi - as the wastegate 'sees' less boost than there actually is.
The electronic boost controllers (EBCs) have an electronic solinoid which does the same job as a manual boost controller in terms of bleeding off boost, however its connected up to a controller which can then regulate how much boost is bled off to give the desired level of boost. The additional benefit is that some of them you are able to set to not bleed off any boost initially and then control it once more boost starts to build leading to a quicker spool up.
I think initially with a turbo car you would probably be running the car on the wastegate spring rather than boosting up higher initially (although make sure the ECU is mapped to whatever boost level you want) - you don't need to run any boost controllers for the car to run as the turbo wastegate spring will limit the boost.
First of all, thanks for taking the time to write such detailed replies guys, it really is greatly appreciated.
Secondly, let me get this right...
If I wanted to run a turbo on my car, what components do I definitely need without question, before I upgrade to higher power? Let's say for example the stock spring rate allows enough for 200bhp. Would I not need any boost controller, aftermarket ecu, remap, injectors etc...?
What I'm trying to say is could I just bolt a turbo and intercooler and exhaust etc on and the car would work at the lowest power the turbo would make and the stock ecu would adjust air/fuel as required?
Again, sorry for being such a newb, but every question is helping me to understand more.
Thanks guys.
I started putting together a DIY turbo thread a while back... Would be good to categorise it properly by levels of power..
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
For 200hp you can get away with stock injectors, a dump valve, panel filter, slightly better exhaust, a piggyback ECU and a small intercooler
You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.
Quote from: "1979scotte"You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.
True, just figured for that price of one, might as well to prevent that back pressure
Ok so I've got
GT28 Turbo, coolant and oil lines - fitted
Manifold - fitted
Exhaust with all bugs for O2/wideband -fitted but don't have a wideband sensor yet
Large intercooler - fitted
Intercooler pipework with MAF - fitted
BOV - fitted
Sump with oil return - fitted
Cooler spark plugs - fitted
What I believe to be lotus 440cc injectors - not fitted yet
PFC ecu - not fitted.
Are there any more components I need to get it running?
Considered a stronger clutch? Especially with the wallop from the gt28
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "1979scotte"You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.
True, just figured for that price of one, might as well to prevent that back pressure
Idle curiosity here, fag packet price for a "bolt on" kit? That is to say an entry level, 200ish hp 1zz.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.
Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?
Quote from: "shnazzle"2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.
Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?
Cheers Patrick, appreciated.(starts looking at Porsches on Autotrader..)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "shnazzle"2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.
Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?
Cheers Patrick, appreciated.(starts looking at Porsches on Autotrader..)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wouldn't worry about it. There's a hell of a lot to be said for a stock 2 over a turbo'd one. Having less power is often, day to day, better than having tons of power that you can use from time to time.
People forget that slapping a turbo on counts as heavily modifying your car. It carries a fair bit of risk and responsibility to maintain it better and more frequently.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "shnazzle"2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.
Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?
Cheers Patrick, appreciated.(starts looking at Porsches on Autotrader..)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wouldn't worry about it. There's a hell of a lot to be said for a stock 2 over a turbo'd one. Having less power is often, day to day, better than having tons of power that you can use from time to time.
People forget that slapping a turbo on counts as heavily modifying your car. It carries a fair bit of risk and responsibility to maintain it better and more frequently.
And lets face it, you've seen me drive, it would be in a hedge 10 minutes after leaving the tuners![emoji23]
Nah, I'm already at least £1500 over budget and still got plenty on my list of things to do, mainly increasing the weight...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "1979scotte"You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.
True, just figured for that price of one, might as well to prevent that back pressure
The demented squirrel is something I wouldn't want to be without.
Probably well worth having with a larger gt28.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "1979scotte"You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.
True, just figured for that price of one, might as well to prevent that back pressure
The demented squirrel is something I wouldn't want to be without.
Probably well worth having with a larger gt28.
Indeed. The Gt28 "worries" me a bit. Knowing what the t2559 is capable of.
Especially combined with the PFC without knock detection.
But, it can all be easily overcome I guess by being a bit more conservative with running boost. Running stock wastegate pressure or perhaps a bit lower.
Besides, they'll use det cans during tuning anyway so as long as nothing changes and it is mapped conservatively, should be perfectly safe without boost controllers etc right?
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "shnazzle"True, just figured for that price of one, might as well to prevent that back pressure
The demented squirrel is something I wouldn't want to be without.
Probably well worth having with a larger gt28.
Indeed. The Gt28 "worries" me a bit. Knowing what the t2559 is capable of.
Especially combined with the PFC without knock detection.
But, it can all be easily overcome I guess by being a bit more conservative with running boost. Running stock wastegate pressure or perhaps a bit lower.
Besides, they'll use det cans during tuning anyway so as long as nothing changes and it is mapped conservatively, should be perfectly safe without boost controllers etc right?
It should run fine if correctly mapped which is true of anything.
A gt28 won't need to push as many psi to achieve the same power so a 7 psi wastgate spring will be fine.
I personally wouldn't use a PFC unless I already had one sitting around.
For boost some piggyback ECU have better features like boost control. Emanage ultimate springs to mind.
I still want to see someone put an ECUmaster product in a roadster price and features are excellent just a lack of tuners.
Does the ecumaster need specialist tuner skills like the PFC and unichip?
It seems like it has a much more universally understandable interfsce, more like the hondata and emanage solutions
Quote from: "shnazzle"Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?
It's the it's a Garrett one from
The MWR kit.
I'm not sure what you mean by a/r.
I do currently plan to use the PFC just because I have one. Is this not a good ECU to use? I don't want to potentially put my car at risk of damaging its self because of a bad choice in ECU.
Quote from: "woodypk"Quote from: "shnazzle"Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?
It's the it's a Garrett one from
The MWR kit.
I'm not sure what you mean by a/r.
I do currently plan to use the PFC just because I have one. Is this not a good ECU to use? I don't want to potentially put my car at risk of damaging its self because of a bad choice in ECU.
No its a smashing bit of kit, it's just a bit old and cumbersome to map and doesn't have some functionality that you'd desire. Plenty cars run it very nicely so I wouldn't worry.
As Scotte said, it lacks boost control for example, which is even built into the emanage ultimate. But then the ultimate is a piggyback so you're always fighting the stock ECU for AFR. Although, there are many ways around it.
The PFC is standalone so it takes much longer to map, as the tuner has to map in open and closed loop. From starting the car to max rpm full throttle and everything in between. A decent Base map will help them and cut down on time so if you can get a pfc map from someone with a near stock configuration, you've saved yourself hundreds
The a/r is a size indicator that really determines the nature of the turbo. Smaller makes for quicker spooling and "fun" but running out of puff quicker. Bigger makes higher top end power but more lag and a bigger wallop.
0.86 would make the top end higher and put you in a good boost position for higher rpm overtakes.
0.64 would make it hit boost quicker and make the car feel very aggressive off the line, arguably more suited to the mr2; think bends. Faster power out of a bend and a lot quicker to respond. Whereas the 0.86 would be more suited to motorway and large track
I believe the PFC already has two maps on it as it was previously used with this turbo kit that I bought. I believe there is a base map and one map running around 220bhp.
I'm not sure how to tell what the a/r is. Is there any way for me to find out.
With the tuning, is there anyone that's been recommmended to map PFC on our cars?
As far as I'm aware, the kit I bought had already been running so my thought was that I could just simply plug it all into my car and it would work.
Just checked the A/R on the turbine housing reads .60
So I'm guessing it will get into boost pretty quickly.
Should all be plug and play then. Drive it gently to the tuner and get it mapped. If it's the same kit, it should only take them a few hours to correct the the map for your setup
0.6 should indeed make for quite a nice drive, in theory.
Stupink is running a Gt28 as well I believe. Or did. He'll know a lot more than me
Thanks for the help everyone. I really apreciate it.