I've not had the MR2 long, and it had a busted gearbox when i bought it. But all fixed now, and i'm trying to enjoy it now the weather is better. It's a second car, i also have a Clio 182 cup partially stripped, that i was dailying previously (i've had 5 182's over the years). I'm used to and comfortable driving fairly quick fwd cars, with stiff suspension. So part of my problem quite be getting used to rwd mid engined format.
Anyway at low speed driving the MR2, it seems fine and as expected really. But as i get above around 60mph, the car seems to be very unstable and nervous. To the point i can't drive it fast on some of the nice twisty roads on the way to work. Even in a straight line it seems to be all over the road. I think it's more when accelerating and coming off the accelerator than just coasting. But i don't really get an opportunity to check maintaining higher speeds on my commute. Most of it is 50mph average speed camera zones.
Change of direction when driving down twisty roads is also pretty weird and i'm struggling to keep the car where i want it to be on the road.
I've also noticed that going around slower corners, if i accelerate quite hard, as if to try and get the back end loose, it feels pretty solid and stable (and the back won't kick out), yet going around the corner in a more normal manner, it feels less stable and soft. Almost like i'm loosing grip and the rear is breaking away.
I've checked tyre pressures and these seemed reasonable, though I've adjusted to suit a previous thread i found on the group. They're Toyo T1R's (which i hate and plan to switch in the near future), i think from memory i'm running about 26F and 34R ??
I have bought some spigot rings to through onto my TD Pro Race 1.2 with AD08R's to give them a try on the MR2.
Now I've had the gearbox off the car, so some of the passenger side rear as been dismantled and an alignment will likely be required - I suspect that this may be a big factor of the issue. But plan an changing at least the springs in the next week or two, so wanted to gauge other potential causes too and how to pinpoint them.
I had thought that perhaps the dampers are shot, but they seem to behave as expected below 60mph, and bumpy roads are handled fine at below 60mph. I had considered getting coilovers to refresh everything in one hit as it seems a cost effective way of doing the springs, dampers and top mounts. But i don't really want to spend £700+ on the car this year. The plan was to enjoy as it was and keep cost to a minimum this year. So just wanted to throw some Tein springs on it at this point and drive the thing.
I think you've nailed it on the head with alignment. It seemingly makes a massive difference on these little cars.
Depending on mileage/age, bushes will probably have seen better days. The cars are getting to the age where they could do with new ones.
You can pick up a pair of brand new wishbones for les than £60 off the bay and that's with new bushes.
Again I think you're correct that T1r s are renowned for soft sidewalls.
Do you still have the plastic air dams fitted at the front? One in front of each wheel and I can't remember if there was one in the Centre as well. They can make a fair difference.
That's all I can think of at the moment. Hope it helps.
I had similar problem with my car and after bushes replacement + alignment it is now fine. I was driving yday with 130+ kms top down and it was amazingly different and planted. Before that id have my steering wheel shake.
Supplemental to everything Dan has already said, I run 28f, 36r on mine with the Toyos as do a few others. They still "give" a little initially but not as much as stock settings.
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I would change the shocks if you are fitting new springs. Lots of threads about how much better the car feels after a refresh.
One should remember, these are almost always used cars with incomplete history.
It is quite possible that shocks were replaced at some point....
So it's worth checking their general condition. If they look old and tired, they probably are. If they look pretty decent, they probably are.
The works as a complete package.
They are very susceptible to small changes and if 1 thing is not right it will let you know.
If you are doing the spannering yourself then fine, do the springs, just seems a waste of time only to do the same work again when you do the shocks.
Unless you go coilies.
Most things are down to funds. But fresh stock shocks and teins are great. Coilies probably better still. (depending on what you want) but might as well do it once than twice.
Could not see that you had mentioned it, but has it had a new sub frame by any chance?
If it has, it will definately have required the geo checking and adjusting.
What is the condition of the sub frame?
And finally with subframes. Have you checked everything is torqued up correctly.
Had a couple of memebers on here reporting very odd behaviour in the car. Both down to lose nuts or bolts. Worth checking. And free!
I had fresh stock suspension and a set of Yokos. Both good in themselves, but only when the geo was done did it all come togethher as a package.
Both mine are pretty old and worn but don't feel like you describe at those speeds. TBH it sounds like something is loose to me, or a bush completely gone.
So I agree with Ardent.
My Diagnostic Checklist for things that can make your '2 feel wayward:
0) Tyre pressures. Start with the basics - 26 front, 32 rear. A flat rear makes them squirrelly under cornering.
1) Shot front lower steering Universal Joint. If it's rusty and/or there's any play about the dead ahead (check when parked) then replace this anyway, but I can testify how bad and unstable it will make a car feel if it's on it's way out. (and yes, it makes the back end feel loose as it swings about the dead spot in steering, very disconcerting)
2) Check condition of the rear sub frame, thoroughly. underneath, on top, near suspension pick up points. If this is rusted through and allowing pick up points to flex, you have continuously variable rear geometry.
3) Alignment is a must. I've driven my car pre-alignment but post suspension work and lethal doesn't quite cut it. They're sensitive to alignment. Not just tracking, but proper 'read a copy of evo whilst it's on the hunter machine and get the credit card out' 4 way alignment with someone who knows what they're looking at. Don't bother with this if other components are suspect.
4) Overall bush and ball joint condition check. The rear toe arm is just a 'replacement' steering track arm, after all. If it's knackered it'll lead to strange toe under loads and acceleration/braking. Replacements form hard race not too dear and don't upset the noise/harshness too much.
5) Damper condition check. Do a bounce check on each corner. These cars aren't hard on dampers but they can go. Replace in pairs, obviously.
6) Spring check. They can lose a half-coil and leave the rest of the spring sat there, would give you strange handling.
Hope that list gives you something to work through and identifies the problem. These cars should really be very stable. If you put it on the AD08'rs you'll just increase the loads and exacerbate the problems, and whilst it would eliminate the tyres being the source of the issues, it sounds like something is more out of spec then mere tyres.
Top post ^^^^
I was always planning on changing the springs, as the car sits so high as standard. I know I'd be better off replacing the damper for fresh items at the same time, but unless they really are knackered I'd like to avoid changing them this year if I can. I will eventually change everything (as i do on all my cars typically), but just not straight away. At least I can assess the dampers once they're off the car. They do have surface rust, but no signs of leakage. I do replace the previous owner showing me an invoice for the front springs being replaced, so possibly odd springs from Vs back?
The subframe/cross member has been replaced within the last couple of years by the previous owner.
Do the MK3 have a speed sensitive power steering system? I googled but only getting MK2 results on the subject.
Reason I ask is that the steering seems to require almost no movement at speeds above 60mph. It's a really weird feeling. I can go round corners having moved the steering wheel maybe 10% what I'd expect to move it in my Clio. Come to think of it my dad flashed me to pull over on the way home, because I was all over the road. He thought I was falling asleep behind the wheel.
Quote from: Darryl_1983 on April 23, 2019, 21:55
Do the MK3 have a speed sensitive power steering system? I googled but only getting MK2 results on the subject.
Reason I ask is that the steering seems to require almost no movement at speeds above 60mph. It's a really weird feeling. I can go round corners having moved the steering wheel maybe 10% what I'd expect to move it in my Clio. Come to think of it my dad flashed me to pull over on the way home, because I was all over the road. He thought I was falling asleep behind the wheel.
Always takes me some time to adjust when I haven't driven mine for a while. The temptation is to overdrive it on quicker roads but with so little weight over the front axle I've found small, measured steering inputs work better. A degree of instability as compared to front engine layouts (perhaps agility is a better word) is one of the benefits of the mid engine layout - the car feels like it pivots around you on a twisty road.
The power steering does back off progressively with speed, it's also worth checking all the connections to the subframe are nipped up nice and tight.
There have been recent incidences of members having squirmy steering/progression due to having a screw loose somewhere.
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I definitely think some of it is getting used to a mid engine rwd setup, but currently something isn't quite right. I've driven my Clio down a road at 100+mph (obviously a private road), pushing a 2018 Porsche boxter round. Yet i'm struggling to keep the mr2 between the line at anything much over 60mph on the same bit of road.
Managed to turn the power steering off this morning, using a trick i found online, so drove to work like that this morning. It felt much better, and i had more confidence in the car, definitely the fastest I've driven it yet. There is still some excessive lateral movement, felt like it may have been coming from the tyres to some degree. Suspension is obviously softer than i'm used to also.
I'll have to look over the car over the weekend if i get time, to check all the over things mentioned. But in regards to the power steering, is it suppose to back off completely by a certain speed? as mine doesn't seem to be doing this.
I have the same problem, I'm almost 100% certain it's the T1Rs. Before, I had T1R on the front, Cooper on the rear (tyres came with the wheels I bought). Then I put new T1Rs on the back to match the front, and now it twitches all over the place at high speed. I'm hoping that the tyres just need scrubbing in.
But once you get used to it it's not dangerous IMO, it's just the car moving on the sidewall instead of actually sliding, if you trust the car the grip is still there.
Worth getting the geo checked as well though!
The 6 steps listed for "My Diagnostic Checklist" are perfect places to start. If you go to lowering springs like Tein, you will end up more negative camber in front, which makes the toe settings very sensitive. If there is even a small amount of positive toe, the car will feel very twitchy and darty. If the toe is set at the middle of the factory setting, or slightly more toe in, that will be more stable.
We are running Tein springs with Koni inserts and run at 0 toe in the rear and .15 deg toe in at the front. The car is stable, but just on the edge of twitchy. The same settings with stock springs and less camber were very stable. We have run with a bit more toe in at both ends with the Tein and that was more stable with a very slight reduction in the turn in sharpness.
Some tires are also more prone to "tramlining" which will make the problem even worse.
Quote from: james_ly on April 24, 2019, 13:28
I have the same problem, I'm almost 100% certain it's the T1Rs. Before, I had T1R on the front, Cooper on the rear (tyres came with the wheels I bought). Then I put new T1Rs on the back to match the front, and now it twitches all over the place at high speed. I'm hoping that the tyres just need scrubbing in.
But once you get used to it it's not dangerous IMO, it's just the car moving on the sidewall instead of actually sliding, if you trust the car the grip is still there.
Worth getting the geo checked as well though!
Toyos are well known for retaining a lot of release fluid from manufacture which can take a few hundred miles to wear off.
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60mph instability does NOT sound good. It will probably start to feel a little light >100mph, but you should be able to throw it around corners/roundabouts pretty precisely at some unreasonably face-bending speeds.
I'm all up for getting the best tyres you can find, but as much as T1R's aren't brilliant, they should be decently predictable... I've never owned a set, but I've had a 20 mile "enthusiastic" drive in a pretty well sorted '2 with them on and as much as the sidewall was obviously a LOT more squidgy than AD08R's, the grip was pretty impressive and they were never unstable - even on undulating, lumpy B-road corners!
I don't think the tyres are the weak point. Get a new set of suspension, ideally something like some MeisterR's (regardless of what you get, make sure you add adjustable rear cam bolts!).... then and a proper geometry check-over, i.e. NOT at Kwikfit... you want somebody that will do a custom fast-road/track geo setup. If they're local to you, I can highly recommend Wheels-In-Motion (aka BlackBoots) in Chesham... at least with the right suspension and geo, you'll have some more confidence in how much you can trust the tyres!
I will second the above.
I'm not local. But still went wheels in motion. :notworthy:
I'm not really in a position to buy Coilovers at the minute, hence just hoping to get away with springs. I had considered just buying them on my credit card and paying it back at a later date. But if after fitting springs and getting the alignment sorted i need to fix other stuff, along with buying better rubber, i'm going to be in much deeper than i originally set out financially with the MR2.
I'll definitely be going to a proper alignment garage, so will research my options closer to the time. I'm based in Nottingham, but do travel south with work for meeting and site visits. However, it'd likely be hard to tie these up, as most of the best garages tend to be booked up for weeks/months in advance from my experience.
Wheels in motion may be possible though, it's 2.5 hours down the M1. I guess if i stick at 60mph, i'll be good. ;)
Quote from: Darryl_1983 on April 25, 2019, 15:32
I'm not really in a position to buy Coilovers at the minute, hence just hoping to get away with springs. I had considered just buying them on my credit card and paying it back at a later date. But if after fitting springs and getting the alignment sorted i need to fix other stuff, along with buying better rubber, i'm going to be in much deeper than i originally set out financially with the MR2.
We've all been there! I reckon I need another two years out of mine without spending anything, to make it vaguely acceptable cost wise!
Quote from: Bossworld on April 25, 2019, 15:48
Quote from: Darryl_1983 on April 25, 2019, 15:32
I'm not really in a position to buy Coilovers at the minute, hence just hoping to get away with springs. I had considered just buying them on my credit card and paying it back at a later date. But if after fitting springs and getting the alignment sorted i need to fix other stuff, along with buying better rubber, i'm going to be in much deeper than i originally set out financially with the MR2.
We've all been there! I reckon I need another two years out of mine without spending anything, to make it vaguely acceptable cost wise!
They're worth spending money on.
You really do have to spend an awful lot more money to get something that handles better.
I've got my Clio 182, which handles pretty good. It's a totally different drive though, and as mentioned above that may be part of my issue. I'm just trying to drive it as much as possible right now. Finding the steering quite weird, just because it seems to need so much less input to get round the same corners...... Actually drove the Clio in today, and the difference in stability is amazing, it's planted everywhere, which i'm sure the MR2 will be too once it's sorted.
I'm doing ok spending wise at the minute. i picked the car up cheap, replaced the box myself and serviced it with fresh box oil (after a flush to be safe), engine oil, filters, plugs, cleaned the MAF, bought a decat manifold (to be fitted). i'm probably into it for about £1150-1200. My original budget was £1500. So by the time I've replaced the springs and had an alignment, i should be spent.
I'm quite liking the car though, so can see myself investing in it over time. Already been eyeing up coilovers as mentioned above, sports cats, and cat backs, seat mods, steering wheels, alloys/tyres etc. I could easily throw £2-3k at it, and I actually bought it thinking i'd go down the 2zz route in the future or a low boost turbo. Though i'd need to get on top of the handling issues first.
Not everyone gets on with the mid engine layout or RWD.
A member recently sold a track car that they share because their partner just couldn't get on with it.
Have we covered whether you've got the spare wheel in the frunk yet? Surprising how different they are without some ballast up front.
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I'd planned on some weight reduction, but it's completely standard at the minute.
Not getting on with mid engined and rwd is a worry, and another factor for not wanting to rush into throwing money at it, until I've used it for a few months. I do want to give it a fair go though.
I'm wondering if letting a knowledgeable member drive the car might help put a few things to rest also.
Echoing @1979scotte (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=20268)
Yes they can absorb some funds. But still relatively cheap in things motoring.
What else can be bought and maintained as cheap as a 2 that gives the same level of involvement?
Quote from: Darryl_1983 on April 25, 2019, 18:48
I'd planned on some weight reduction, but it's completely standard at the minute.
Not getting on with mid engined and rwd is a worry, and another factor for not wanting to rush into throwing money at it, until I've used it for a few months. I do want to give it a fair go though.
I'm wondering if letting a knowledgeable member drive the car might help put a few things to rest also.
@Darryl_1983 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25660)
Oddly enough, that was going to be my next post.
I'm only down the road in Leicester. I was going to offer a comparison with mine.
Stock but fresh shocks, teins, yokos. Wheels in motion b road geo set up.
I had a 182 as well. Great car.
Full fat (comfy bits) with cup suspension. :notworthy:
Would like that engine in a 2.
Quote from: Darryl_1983 on April 25, 2019, 18:48
I'm wondering if letting a knowledgeable member drive the car might help put a few things to rest also.
I
definitely think this is the way forwards. Before you throw money at the problem, get it diagnosed!! I wouldn't buy coilovers for any car until I've sorted the rest of the suspension anyway.
I don't think this is you just not 'getting' a mid engined cars. These things are supposed to be pussy-cats, they were a staple of women of a certain age fer gawds sake, they should NOT feel skittish, waywards or unpredictable! Anyone with fast car experience (and I count clio 182' in that) should be more than happy behind the wheel at moderate speeds.
I'd gladly drive/look over it if you ever pass my way but I appreciate a 2 hour drive south in a wayward car isn't fun.
Does anyone know if Steve @ D1Customs is back up and running in Leicester? He would be a good start point, he knows these cars inside out.
Any members with a bit of mechanical experience local to Nottingham willing to have a poke around?
Sadly I do know the answer re steve. And it's no. :'(
Not a mech/tech guru like many on here.
But I have offered the option of a comparison with mine.
Over to you. @Darryl_1983 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25660)
Nottingham - Leicester meet in the middle?
I'm definitely not against spending money on a car i like and enjoy. Even with the instability at higher speeds, I'm having fun with the car and enjoying it.
It's only really one road that i drive down that the car feels wrong, i guess most the other roads i'm driving are mostly under 60mph though. It's a NSL road, with hardly any straights, undulations all over the place, a few bumpy bits, etc, a proper B-Road for blasting down and having a bit of fun. I always look forward to getting there when i drive my Clio, but in the MR2 it feels dangerous.
I drove the MR2 again today, and it feels like its moving around all over the place, even on the straighter sections of road when i'm barely moving the wheel, its like its rolling over the tyre walls constantly. It's just really odd that the car seems to drive fine everywhere else.
I'm thinking it's probably just a case of tired damper, unmatched soft springs, alignment out, and tyres with a soft side wall, all combining into a right mess at higher speeds.
Quote from: Ardent on April 25, 2019, 20:33
Sadly I do know the answer re steve. And it's no. :'(
Not a mech/tech guru like many on here.
But I have offered the option of a comparison with mine.
Over to you. @Darryl_1983 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25660)
Nottingham - Leicester meet in the middle?
That would be great and I appreciate the offer. I'm going to struggle to take you up on it for a couple of weeks at least, due to family and work commitments though.
I think it would definitely be good to have an idea of what these cars should feel like when being thrown around bumpy twisty roads at reasonable speeds
I'm 100% going to lower the car and get an alignment done though anyway, so i'm wondering if to get these done first. I'm also thinking that i should just replace the dampers anyway. Because i'll end up changing them in the future at some point, may as well do it at the same time and just bite the bullet with the cost.
@Ardent (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=20018)
Actually, i'll probably be in Coventry at some point next week doing a site visit, so might be able to pop over during work hours if you're free at some point that suits you
@Darryl_1983 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25660)
Like you i will be at work. But generally free after 5
Quote from: Ardent on April 26, 2019, 12:38
@Darryl_1983 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25660)
Like you i will be at work. But generally free after 5
Ok no worries, i suspected that would probably be the case.
I might actually have an alternative close to work through my boss, as he's a friend that is into MR2's and has a roadster that he's played around with for the last couple of years.
I still think it's the tyres. I just typed into google "Toyo T1R sidewall", and saw people writing stuff like:
"I've found the same, T1R's side wall is too soft, independetly of mileage. Now I'm running on 32 PSI at front and 29 PSI at rear but it's still too rubbish especially during hard braking. I feel like the wishbone bushes would be worn or snapped, but they are in perfect condition."
"Is it just me or is there an insane amount of sidewall flex with these tires?? The jelloie feeling is starting to grow on me a bit...I guess.
The best example to describe this feeling comes from a fast lane change. Once you get into the desired lane and you stiffen the wheel straight again the whole car aggressively rocks back in the opposite direction of the change."
Sounds familiar right?
I went slightly taller with my front tyres, to avoid digging up the road with my TRD bumper.
I'm running Nankang NS20s.
I found, on undulating B roads, it was bump-steering quite a bit more.
I upped the tyre pressure from 26 - 28 psi.
Sorted.
I think the moral is sidewalls can cause bump steer. I agree that these cars should be pussycats to drive.
I found Toyo tyres made the car feel like it was driving on jelly. I changed them for Continental Contactsport and the difference had to be seen to believed. The car went from feeling unstable to being completely solid on the motorway. I'm assuming you have the factory fit 15" + 16" wheel combo? If you have aftermarket wheels you may want to consider getting factory spec wheels.
It's also worth looking at the front anti-roll bar bushes as these can affect handling in the way you describe.
Just to throw it out there but does anyone find these cars are affected by crosswinds more than you may expect (at the speeds mentioned in the post)?
First 100+ mile motorway journey today since:
New tyres
New lower control arms
New steering union
Felt I was being pushed around in lane at times, somewhat similar to what's being described here. I don't think that would explain the OPs feeling of it happening on NSL b roads though
@Bossworld (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23743)
Not uncommon to feel the joys of crosswinds.
It was a tad more windy than normal today.
Quote from: Ardent on April 27, 2019, 21:39
@Bossworld (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23743)
Not uncommon to feel the joys of crosswinds.
Agreed and we are experiencing particularly strong wind currently
Cool, cheers lads.
Before I attempt to throw my Clio wheels on the MR2. Will 15x7J ET 35 with 195/50 tyres fit on at the front?
I've also ordered some Tein springs, at least I'll be able to access everything when I take it to pieces to fit the springs. I'll then order anything else that looks suspect and get a proper alignment.
Looking at tyres I can't really find anything in standard fitment that looks decent other than AD08R's, but looking at £370 and I'm thinking they might be a bit too grippy to learn how to control the rear with..... Possibly??
Falken ZE914 have had favourable reviews in the past.
Never used them myself.
Assume they come in the correct sizes
Very close to stock spec.
Just the fronts have a much higher load rating (which we don't need) and in xl construction.
Rears are spot on.
Quote from: Darryl_1983 on April 28, 2019, 13:52
Before I attempt to throw my Clio wheels on the MR2. Will 15x7J ET 35 with 195/50 tyres fit on at the front?
Yes, no problem at all. 16x7J ET38 with 205/50's fit ok!
Bit of an update.
I decided to adjust the alignment to the rear offside wheel (removed when replacing the gearbox) a little using straight edges, measuring tape and eyeing in. I've probably moved the wheel 5+mm inplane, so quite a bit really. The steering wheel is now straight when driving straight, so must be closer to where is was, which was an instant good sign.
This has had a big improvement, I noticed previously the car was moving side to side between going on and off the throttle, even in a straight line. It's now almost not noticeable when going straight.
It's obviously not properly setup still and needs a full alignment carried out, but i'm hoping to get this sorted this week.
I also fitted the Tein springs on sunday, which has improved the stiffness.
Fairly confident a full alignment and a better set of tyres will pretty much sort the problem now though. I'll no doubt start updating bushes roll bars, links and adding stiffeners over time if i keep the car awhile (which is the current plan).
Anyone know of anywhere in Nottingham worth using for an alignment. I know Wheels in motion is highly recommended, but its a 5 hour round trip on a good day. I've found a local place that seemly only do wheel alignment, with good reviews (google reviews for whatever they're worth).
Glad to hear of the improvement.
Sadly have no recommendations re alignment specialists in notts.