After months of slowly acquiring bits I am starting to work on adding a turbo.
First off over the winter I found I had a problem with a leak into the footwell - so had to spend a long time trying to find and fix that so I didn't spend time and money on a car that was going to rust through. Hopeully fixed the leak now but time will tell if I need to be more liberal with the sealant.
https://imgur.com/a/HFzZaNJ
Plan for turbo is:
- 200+hp
- My only car so remain reliable when driven sensibly
- Not obnoxiously loud every morning and doesn't give everyone I drive past on the commute lung disease so a proper exhaust system
- Water charge cooler
- Best value for money
- Tuneable
I've got a second hand turbo of a nissan 180sx sr20det - (T25g apparently) - this may be a mistake but lets see - if it damages the engines I can use it as a chance to get a better reconditioned or built engine as a replacement.
Water charge air cooler from China (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32971584205.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.10b54c4ddeWbeK) which should be plenty big enough
Used powerflow exhaust with a sports cat ordered to collect after lockdown - plan to butcher this and connect to the downpipe.
Turbokits.com manifold off of
@BahnStormer from the sale section.
Yesterday I removed the exhaust and went to have a look at the turbo fitment on the manifold and it was what I was worried about: with the turbokits manifold the turbo only fits with the compressor on the right hand side.
https://imgur.com/a/ANaQkZV
I think this means either:
1) Routing air intake to the right hand air intake and removing the fuel vapour can (which I didn't want to do for emissions reasons)
2) Route the itake horribly back to the left hand side again.
3) Sell this manifold and order the other one from the USA. I'd be looking for a simlar layout to picture by Monsi in Dan's thread here: https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=64595.106[/list]
Couple of things spring to mind, the vapour can will be having very little affect on emissions unless you've fitted a brand new one recently? The active ingredients will be very tired by now so at best is just a fuel tank pressure vent, many people do away with it and just fit a one way, filtered vent.
There's no reason if you want to keep it that you can't move it to a place or your choosing once you've sorted the rest of the plumbing.
Good luck with the build.👍🏻
FYI there is a LOT of space behind rear right light. If you can snake some 7mm pipework there, it's in a decently cool place as well.
Just get a turbo that fits this manifold, which do turbokits recommend ?
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2020, 23:09Couple of things spring to mind, the vapour can will be having very little affect on emissions unless you've fitted a brand new one recently? The active ingredients will be very tired by now so at best is just a fuel tank pressure vent, many people do away with it and just fit a one way, filtered vent.
There's no reason if you want to keep it that you can't move it to a place or your choosing once you've sorted the rest of the plumbing.
Good luck with the build.👍🏻
Thanks.
I thought the same about a 15 year old car but I've tried to do some research online and can't really find any evidence that the stop working with time. While probably not as effective - the way they fail would to be blocked up and you'd get an engine warning light.
Given the USA brought the requirements in in the 70s, a time and place not exactly famed for being overly environmental I'm going to try and keep some of the functionality.
I'll have a look behind the right wheel arch - I had noted the big empty space before but may need to have alook at routing the cold air from the side scoop as per the left hand side.
Turbokits recommend mounting the turbo this way round. Their kit (with black label) uses meth injection and a tiny silencer so may not be the best basis for what I want.
Quote from: mr9 on April 19, 2020, 15:33Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2020, 23:09Couple of things spring to mind, the vapour can will be having very little affect on emissions unless you've fitted a brand new one recently? The active ingredients will be very tired by now so at best is just a fuel tank pressure vent, many people do away with it and just fit a one way, filtered vent.
There's no reason if you want to keep it that you can't move it to a place or your choosing once you've sorted the rest of the plumbing.
Good luck with the build.👍🏻
Thanks.
I thought the same about a 15 year old car but I've tried to do some research online and can't really find any evidence that the stop working with time. While probably not as effective - the way they fail would to be blocked up and you'd get an engine warning light.
Given the USA brought the requirements in in the 70s, a time and place not exactly famed for being overly environmental I'm going to try and keep some of the functionality.
I'll have a look behind the right wheel arch - I had noted the big empty space before but may need to have alook at routing the cold air from the side scoop as per the left hand side.
Turbokits recommend mounting the turbo this way round. Their kit (with black label) uses meth injection and a tiny silencer so may not be the best basis for what I want.
The US cars use a different system, on the UK/EU spec cars it's basically a charcoal canister that the tank vents through into the intake system, can't really block up or give you a warning light as they're not monitored by the ECU in any way.
If the pipes blocked for any reason you'd have some running issues but only because of the associated vacuum pipes.
I am doing a very similar setup to yours, i have posted a few pics on the FB group. I used to post here alot until it became incomptible with Tapatalk, which in turn became a pain for me as all my images are on my phone.
I have removed the evap, its no big deal. Make sure you put a little one way filter on the end of the fuel tank vent, use the vacuum from the VSV for something useful like the BOV and make sure you keep the VCV plugged in so the ECU doesn't throw a code.
As for air filter, i was weighing up, behind the light versus down the right hand side vent, and the right hand side vent wins. direct access to air, no immediate heat source and will be easier to access if need be. Only downside is that you will have to relocate the oil dipstick. I need to also check clearance of the X Brace. but, elbow up from the compressor then 90 over the engine, and 45 down to the duct :)
i might put some updates on my build thread when i get 5.
Quote from: CrazySX on April 21, 2020, 16:14I am doing a very similar setup to yours, i have posted a few pics on the FB group. I used to post here alot until it became incomptible with Tapatalk, which in turn became a pain for me as all my images are on my phone.
I have removed the evap, its no big deal. Make sure you put a little one way filter on the end of the fuel tank vent, use the vacuum from the VSV for something useful like the BOV and make sure you keep the VCV plugged in so the ECU doesn't throw a code.
As for air filter, i was weighing up, behind the light versus down the right hand side vent, and the right hand side vent wins. direct access to air, no immediate heat source and will be easier to access if need be. Only downside is that you will have to relocate the oil dipstick. I need to also check clearance of the X Brace. but, elbow up from the compressor then 90 over the engine, and 45 down to the duct :)
i might put some updates on my build thread when i get 5.
I had been eyeing up the clearance to teh x-brace. I need to measure it but havent got round to it.
What diameter pipe are you running?
Quote from: mr9 on April 21, 2020, 22:50Quote from: CrazySX on April 21, 2020, 16:14I am doing a very similar setup to yours, i have posted a few pics on the FB group. I used to post here alot until it became incomptible with Tapatalk, which in turn became a pain for me as all my images are on my phone.
I have removed the evap, its no big deal. Make sure you put a little one way filter on the end of the fuel tank vent, use the vacuum from the VSV for something useful like the BOV and make sure you keep the VCV plugged in so the ECU doesn't throw a code.
As for air filter, i was weighing up, behind the light versus down the right hand side vent, and the right hand side vent wins. direct access to air, no immediate heat source and will be easier to access if need be. Only downside is that you will have to relocate the oil dipstick. I need to also check clearance of the X Brace. but, elbow up from the compressor then 90 over the engine, and 45 down to the duct :)
i might put some updates on my build thread when i get 5.
I had been eyeing up the clearance to teh x-brace. I need to measure it but havent got round to it.
What diameter pipe are you running?
I am using 2.5 inch or 63mm. I have managed to clear the x brace and have above 5mm spare. I want to avoid contact with the engine so need to make a mount that attaches to the suspension turret maybe.
Have a look on Boosted MR-S group on FB. I posted a video there recently of the full pipe run both sides of the IC.
Quote from: CrazySX on April 25, 2020, 00:00I am using 2.5 inch or 63mm. I have managed to clear the x brace and have above 5mm spare. I want to avoid contact with the engine so need to make a mount that attaches to the suspension turret maybe.
Have a look on Boosted MR-S group on FB. I posted a video there recently of the full pipe run both sides of the IC.
5mm clearance is not going to be enough unless you run solid engine mounts, i think i saw your video on FB group but try my best not to comment on there as there is always some armchair tuner who thinks they know best and just likes to argue for fun lol :D The engine moves around a fair bit and lots of places its very close on your car so will foul during driving, put air filter behind rear light would be better imo
Made a little bit of progress, going with the bit behind the rest right lamp. The air filter I bought was a lot bigger than I thought and just about fits. I've seen a post on Facebook where someone managed to swap the air duct from the left to right side so I'll look into that in the future and will be interested to compare intake temps.
Assorted pipes and hoses arrived. Couldn't get my charge cooler to fit with the battery in place as hoped so today was spent moving the battery to the rear subframe.
https://midshiprunabout.org/mk3/moving-stock-battery-to-rear-lower-cross-member/
Going to need to see it it will still fit withe the old heatshield as I think that definitely needs shielding from the exhaust heat.
I'll have a very short elbow straight from the cooler to the throttle body so to control any excessive engine movement I think I'm definitely going to have to splash out on poly engine mounts. Is that a driveway job b or a garage with a ramp job?
As well as some Astra VXR injectors I've recently found a bargain of yellow 2zz injectors so was thinking of dropping these in first for the initial tune but not sure if they'll just be undersized
2zz injectors are too small really for anything other than tiny amounts of boost just fit the VXR's
Engine mount wise i fitted the Powerflex poly void filler Inserts rather than complete mountings and it reduced engine movement a lot, in fact i only fitted them in rear one and still have the front one to do but not sure i will bother now, either way they can be done from just having car up on axle stand or small ramps.
Edit to add these are inserts i got, they are for Elise 111r which shares same engine/mounts as MR2 roadster :)
https://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/111R+Rear+Engine+Mount+Insert/1498.html
https://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/111R+Front+Engine+Mount+Insert/1499.html
Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2020, 10:542zz injectors are too small really for anything other than tiny amounts of boost just fit the VXR's
Engine mount wise i fitted the Powerflex poly void filler Inserts rather than complete mountings and it reduced engine movement a lot, in fact i only fitted them in rear one and still have the front one to do but not sure i will bother now, either way they can be done from just having car up on axle stand or small ramps.
Edit to add these are inserts i got, they are for Elise 111r which shares same engine/mounts as MR2 roadster :)
https://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/111R+Rear+Engine+Mount+Insert/1498.html
https://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/111R+Front+Engine+Mount+Insert/1499.html
That sounds much more efficient (and reversable). The links say 2zz only for the lotus but I take it these are the same for the roadster 1zz?
Yes same mounts used on toyota powered elise and our cars and those are the ones ive fitted in mine, i did a thread somewhere will find it for you.. i was concerned about extra NVH etc into cabin which they do like all stiffer mounts give but its acceptable for me and with just rear inserts fitted got rid of most of engine flapping about which was giving me gear change issues when cornering hard.
Here you go... https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=67502.0
I've not been great at keeping this thread updated - added a few images on the facebook group when I was a stuck and needed quick help but will try and add more here now.
I ended up accepting a job abroad in Croatia (Near FredyCro in Zagreb) - so had to try and finish the car in lockdown while working and organising moving abroad.
I came home for an extended Christmas and ended up dropping it at RRRenginering on Saturday night after an adventure with a self drive flatbed 14 hours before my flight.
After a fixed oil leak I had an email saying that they achieved 193whp @ 6000rpm before the 2zz injectors max out. I'd ran out of time to sort the adaptors on the deka injectors I bought on eBay so had backup ones installed.
No MOT and to get it driveable I need to sort th binding rear callipers - sort the heatshielding in the engine bay out (need to fabrication or welding and get the exhaust finished - needs some extra hangar rods and cutting as the custom pipes were long.
I ended up with a custom welded exhaust which has a boost actuated valve after the Y piece. So after 3" catalyst it splits into 2x2", one goes through a small silencer (doesn't need to be too big as the 2" pipe already quietens it,) and when the valve opens (5psi?) it can also flow straight out. Problem is you get some resonance of the pulses through the closed valve tailpipe so I'll see if anything can fix that.
I can't sell it until I've driven it for a considerable time to prove out the reliability - and I don't want to yet either - so the plan is to drive it over to Zagreb in the summer and keep here for as long as I am legally allowed when restrictions allow and I'm confident it make the 4000mile trip. I'll be looking at top level breakdown cover as I know a few people who drove an old Porsche 944 to Europe on a road trip and got put up in a 5* hotel half an hour from Calais when they broke down....
Overall I'm pretty happy with 193whp with more room for improvement with bigger injectors and a bigger wastegate spring - and can't wait to drive it, even if moving abroad has made this all a bit of a hassle.
Good work :D im suspecting the power number is not "at the wheels" power though, 2zz injectors at least on the stock dead head fuel rail wont make that much power at the wheels, even at the crank that would be a stretch imo. Maybe a "dyno calibration" issue :)
Glad your getting there with it though and hopefully get chance to enjoy it some before you sell it.
Quote from: thetyrant on February 12, 2021, 08:59Good work :D im suspecting the power number is not "at the wheels" power though, 2zz injectors at least on the stock dead head fuel rail wont make that much power at the wheels, even at the crank that would be a stretch imo. Maybe a "dyno calibration" issue :)
Glad your getting there with it though and hopefully get chance to enjoy it some before you sell it.
Perhaps,but stock 2zz makes 190 so it's not unreasonable to assume there was 10-15% overhead in them. Although running against low boost will counter that.
Doesn't the the tte turbo use stock 1zz injectors?
They make over 180 at the crank.
However SP240 kits used 440cc injectors mostly to turn out around 235 crank.
RRR do use a hub dyno so you will gain a bit of bhp over a traditional rolling road.
It really doesn't matter what it makes as long as you are happy.
Remember it will probably need more tunning yet via remote to get the day to day running right.
Wonder what mine would make at RRR did 255 @ the wheels on a supposedly very conservative rolling road. Maybe I'll find out one day.
Quote from: 1979scotte on February 12, 2021, 11:41Doesn't the the tte turbo use stock 1zz injectors?
They make over 180 at the crank.
However SP240 kits used 440cc injectors mostly to turn out around 235 crank.
RRR do use a hub dyno so you will gain a bit of bhp over a traditional rolling road.
It really doesn't matter what it makes as long as you are happy.
Remember it will probably need more tunning yet via remote to get the day to day running right.
Wonder what mine would make at RRR did 255 @ the wheels on a supposedly very conservative rolling road. Maybe I'll find out one day.
Good to know about the hub Dyno, that would help.
The 440s in the SP240 don't run anywhere near max.
Plenty headroom. I never saw it go above 75-80% duty cycle at max boost.
TTE does use stock injectors. Works fine.
2zz yellows flow even more so at stock pressure are good for 185-190hp.
Whether it's optimal spray is another matter. That's why bigger injectors are used.
Another update. Got done refurbed rest calipets off of Simon. Fitted by a garage near my dad's, failed the MOT on CO emissions (way over the limit) so adding a turbo blanket and heat wrap up help the catalyst light off and RRR will remotely alter the map.
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 15:44Another update. Got done refurbed rest calipets off of Simon. Fitted by a garage near my dad's, failed the MOT on CO emissions (way over the limit) so adding a turbo blanket and heat wrap up help the catalyst light off and RRR will remotely alter the map.
Rag the ass off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
I'm not there so getting my dad to help. the garage and my dad both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.
RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.
RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
Modified cars are always going to struggle.
Hopefully they'll sort it via remote.
Tbh I personally don't thick a turbo 2 is something to daily drive around town.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 17:37Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.
RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
Modified cars are always going to struggle.
Hopefully they'll sort it via remote.
Tbh I personally don't thick a turbo 2 is something to daily drive around town.
Agreed, long term I'll probably get an old Prius, but ended up moving here before finishing the project.
Unless anyone reading wants to buy it I think my best bet is to run it for 6 months or so to iron out the issues prove its reliable, enjoy a road trip or two and maybe sell it after
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 15:44Another update. Got done refurbed rest calipets off of Simon. Fitted by a garage near my dad's, failed the MOT on CO emissions (way over the limit) so adding a turbo blanket and heat wrap up help the catalyst light off and RRR will remotely alter the map.
But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?
Picked up the car and drove it up and down the M1 this weekend.
Power is great. Noise is a lot lose than I thought - blow off valve is very audible.
Charge cooler pump wasn't wired up and so some miscommunication with rrr there, been driving it carefully as my childishness will let me and getting that and a few bits tidied up now at a garage.
Aiming to drive to Zagreb this coming weekend now but need to confirm with r different countries if I'm allowed in the country. Would be much easier if I had an EU passport.
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.
RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe
Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 15:52Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.
RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe
Yes I think it mainly comes down to my wideband O2 in the exhaust isn't in the position it's best calibrated by.
Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 17:49Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 15:52Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.
RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe
Yes I think it mainly comes down to my wideband O2 in the exhaust isn't in the position it's best calibrated by.
Let me guess... Is it after the cat? :)
Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 17:50Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 17:49Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 15:52Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.
I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.
RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe
Yes I think it mainly comes down to my wideband O2 in the exhaust isn't in the position it's best calibrated by.
Let me guess... Is it after the cat? :)
NO surely not
Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 17:50Let me guess... Is it after the cat? :)
Nearly spat my coffee on the screen.
Thanks ;-)
After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D
Quote from: thetyrant on May 11, 2021, 20:19After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D
You will have to tell me how that works because the cat is interfering with the readings.
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 11, 2021, 21:10Quote from: thetyrant on May 11, 2021, 20:19After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D
You will have to tell me how that works because the cat is interfering with the readings.
There's truth there. It's just.. Not optimal.
Mostly cats age and aren't uniform in their output throughout their temperature range. It's one of those "better than nothing" scenarios.
Curious though; where is the wideband?
Wideband is definately not that bad!
It's on a bend right after the turbo, generally you want a bit of straight before them to get more uniform flow.
Sensor bung shown here
https://imgur.com/a/DisPrWp
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 11, 2021, 21:10Quote from: thetyrant on May 11, 2021, 20:19After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D
You will have to tell me how that works because the cat is interfering with the readings.
Its not ideal of course and wouldnt really want to run post cat WB for a closed loop fueling setup but for mapping its fine as long as your aware of the differences, depending on the setup it doesnt usually make a huge difference and ive watched a car with both pre-cat WB and post cat tailpipe mounted WB during mapping and not hugely different as long as your not mapping right to the ragged edge, slightly leaner readings on the post cat WB that you need to be aware of. There is probably more difference between different WB setups than you get with a pre/post cast mounting in my experience.
If using for closed loop fuel controlwhere ECU is controlling the fueling on the fly from WB feedback then your much better with pre cat WB as otherwise you need to put funny numbers in the ecu to get the actual fueling you want at engine, again all depends how close to limits you want to go, if really pushing things you need a WB sensor on each runner of the manifold but thats getting a but away from basic MR2 turbos setups for most :)
Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 22:03Wideband is definately not that bad!
It's on a bend right after the turbo, generally you want a bit of straight before them to get more uniform flow.
Sensor bung shown here
https://imgur.com/a/DisPrWp
That will be fine for readings but may suffer a shorter sensor life due to heat from turbo being so close, WB suppliers usually say something like 12-16" away from turbo to help reduce overheating sensors but ive ran them in the elbow right on turbo before and not had any real issues, just need to keep an eye on fueling it starts to look odd or run weird check or replace the WB sensor.
I made it! Mostly in one piece. There is a rear light lens somewhere on a French motorway, but the engine is mechanically fine. Will add more later
Quote from: thetyrant on May 12, 2021, 07:35Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 22:03Wideband is definately not that bad!
It's on a bend right after the turbo, generally you want a bit of straight before them to get more uniform flow.
Sensor bung shown here
https://imgur.com/a/DisPrWp
That will be fine for readings but may suffer a shorter sensor life due to heat from turbo being so close, WB suppliers usually say something like 12-16" away from turbo to help reduce overheating sensors but ive ran them in the elbow right on turbo before and not had any real issues, just need to keep an eye on fueling it starts to look odd or run weird check or replace the WB sensor.
Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.
It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...
Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 09:28Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.
It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...
Good to hear you made it ok :)
Biggest problem with old fuel is the drop in octane rating causing engine to knock/pink under boost/load, only really an issue if your pushing the car hard on old fuel and it was mapped to the limit on new fresh fuel, good mappers generally dont map road cars to the ragged edge due to variable quality of pump fuel, i often map on 95 regular unleaded then once mapped run super unleaded to give a little extra knock protection, there are certainly some power gains from mapping to super unleaded but for road cars its negligible and if you cant get it for some reason at least you know its safe to run on regualr 95 fuel.
Do you know what fuel was used for the mapping and do you have same available over there ? also is there knock control mapped on your ecu ?
Quote from: thetyrant on May 17, 2021, 09:48Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 09:28Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.
It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...
Good to hear you made it ok :)
Biggest problem with old fuel is the drop in octane rating causing engine to knock/pink under boost/load, only really an issue if your pushing the car hard on old fuel and it was mapped to the limit on new fresh fuel, good mappers generally dont map road cars to the ragged edge due to variable quality of pump fuel, i often map on 95 regular unleaded then once mapped run super unleaded to give a little extra knock protection, there are certainly some power gains from mapping to super unleaded but for road cars its negligible and if you cant get it for some reason at least you know its safe to run on regualr 95 fuel.
Do you know what fuel was used for the mapping and do you have same available over there ? also is there knock control mapped on your ecu ?
I believe just the very old fuel I had in the tank.
Given I am going to look for bigger injectors and add boost control to raise the boost it might need remapping. I have been interested in doing some myself so maybe I can look at it in the future to adjust this map as I will always have the baseline to return to.
Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 21:21Quote from: thetyrant on May 17, 2021, 09:48Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 09:28Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.
It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...
Good to hear you made it ok :)
Biggest problem with old fuel is the drop in octane rating causing engine to knock/pink under boost/load, only really an issue if your pushing the car hard on old fuel and it was mapped to the limit on new fresh fuel, good mappers generally dont map road cars to the ragged edge due to variable quality of pump fuel, i often map on 95 regular unleaded then once mapped run super unleaded to give a little extra knock protection, there are certainly some power gains from mapping to super unleaded but for road cars its negligible and if you cant get it for some reason at least you know its safe to run on regualr 95 fuel.
Do you know what fuel was used for the mapping and do you have same available over there ? also is there knock control mapped on your ecu ?
I believe just the very old fuel I had in the tank.
Given I am going to look for bigger injectors and add boost control to raise the boost it might need remapping. I have been interested in doing some myself so maybe I can look at it in the future to adjust this map as I will always have the baseline to return to.
Might?
If you add bigger injectors it most definitely will. Although you can obviously learn to donthis yourself.
EBC is a must imho just running on wastegate pressure is so last century.
Hang on a minute you've got an ECUMASTER. They've got boost control built in. All you need is the MAC solenoid. Tell the ecu your boost target and afr target shouldn't it then be able to learn the rest? It has a mode for that I'm sure.
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 17, 2021, 21:33Might?
If you add bigger injectors it most definitely will. Although you can obviously learn to donthis yourself.
EBC is a must imho just running on wastegate pressure is so last century.
Hang on a minute you've got an ECUMASTER. They've got boost control built in. All you need is the MAC solenoid. Tell the ecu your boost target and afr target shouldn't it then be able to learn the rest? It has a mode for that I'm sure.
*If I do put bigger injectors in it WILL need a remap.
I have a Mac solenoid. Left it with the car but hasn't been installed yet.
I am not sure - that sounds like it would be easy - just timing would need tuning for higher boost
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 17, 2021, 21:33Hang on a minute you've got an ECUMASTER. They've got boost control built in. All you need is the MAC solenoid. Tell the ecu your boost target and afr target shouldn't it then be able to learn the rest? It has a mode for that I'm sure.
Unfortunately its not that easy, closed loop fueling control is mainly for cruise and low rev/load fine trims and while it can be used for higher revs/load/boost its for small corrections/trims due to air temp/pressures etc and not to actually build up the base fuel tables, if you ever get to see a fuel table thats been built/modded by using closed loop control you will see what i mean as they are usually a mess and not smooth due to the way the logic works and while it might get there in the end it puts the engine in potential danger during the process, basically its not clever or fast enough compared to an experienced mapper.
Any changes to fuel system, boost level or even fuel used should be checked for AFR and timing/knock etc by someone who knows what they are doing, this can be done remotely using logging etc if no local tuners but caution needs to be taken to prevent damage and done in small stages imo.
Edit to add....this is a good transcript from a HP tuner tuning article on auto tune on the ECU master explains how and why auto tune is not for setting the map just for fine tuning - https://www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/267-auto-tune-ecu-master-emu-black/ you can sign up to view the videos and would be good if your thinking of tuning yourself, they do loads of tuning vids and pretty good explainations.
Had a nice response typed, the forum informed me that someone else had responded in the meantime (thetyrant), I read it and it was almost word for word what I wrote haha. So that forum feature IS useful!
He does already have his base tune.
If you tell the ecu you have 700cc injectors instead of 350 can't it work that out?
If not sounds like a waste of money having it tuned in the first place
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 18, 2021, 10:15He does already have his base tune.
If you tell the ecu you have 700cc injectors instead of 350 can't it work that out?
If not sounds like a waste of money having it tuned in the first place
No....well it will run but there is more to it that just flow rates of the injectors, thinks like voltage deadtimes and lag time etc etc all vary on injectors.
Basically if you change injectors you can get it to run by telling ecu there is a global change to injetors, but its very very unlikely it doesnt need the map tweaking to suit as well due to above.
Yes its a waste of time/money getting a car mapped if you have changes planned, however if you need it to run and drive in the meantime you have no option, or you just have to wait.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2021, 11:08Quote from: 1979scotte on May 18, 2021, 10:15He does already have his base tune.
If you tell the ecu you have 700cc injectors instead of 350 can't it work that out?
If not sounds like a waste of money having it tuned in the first place
No....well it will run but there is more to it that just flow rates of the injectors, thinks like voltage deadtimes and lag time etc etc all vary on injectors.
Basically if you change injectors you can get it to run by telling ecu there is a global change to injetors, but its very very unlikely it doesnt need the map tweaking to suit as well due to above.
Yes its a waste of time/money getting a car mapped if you have changes planned, however if you need it to run and drive in the meantime you have no option, or you just have to wait.
Yeah my hand was forced. In happy with how it is now. About 50% power increase over stock and reliable.
Adding more power and running in the future will be expensive yes, but I might sign up to that tuning academy later
Right now I'll just recharge the Aircon, get the roof down and enjoy 200hp in the sun!
PRE-NOTICE: FOR SALE
I am looking to stay in Zagreb - and while tempting importing it doesn't make any sense.
Since the conversion it have ben to Croatia, all around and back again.
I will make a for sale post in the coming days.
For Sales: https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=72717.0
Quote from: mr9 on March 16, 2022, 21:49PRE-NOTICE: FOR SALE
I am looking to stay in Zagreb - and while tempting importing it doesn't make any sense.
Since the conversion it have ben to Croatia, all around and back again.
I will make a for sale post in the coming days.
If you'll stay in Zagreb do get in touch. Im living there
Sorry for OT