MR2 Roadster Owners Club

Since I was about 10, I wanted to do motorsport. However, a combination of life, time and money has always gotten in the way. Had always had some quick road cars (although still never owned a FWD car as my driver, always AWD or RWD), but never made the step onto the track.

Anyway, newly single and finally in a conventional job.... At the age of 35 I finally decided it was now or never. I sat my ARDS test and got looking for something. I was doing some work at Hinkley Point power station in the South West and this car appeared in the classified from Wiltshire. Went and seen it, liked it, bought it in 2018.

Spent winter 2018/19 giving the car a bit of a freshen up, got the panels resprayed so the car was all black.




(https://i.ibb.co/8mJxqB4/20190402-175357.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YN6dmWT)
back from the spray shop

So from there I did my first ever track day in February 2019, and entered Superlap Scotland Sprint series up here as a class F car (SLS works with power to weight ratio – all class F cars have roughly the same power to weight). First race weekend went well with the car finishing 3rd out of field of 16 cars – so was absolutely delighted with that for my first event (as I went in fearing finishing last)

Onto Croft and then this happened 3 laps into practicing:


(https://i.ibb.co/P11f1Qt/bearing.png) (https://ibb.co/XFFvF8V)
free image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)

Spun a bearing and that was Engine #1 ruined. The top end was still fine, but the block was pretty badly scored.

Anyway 2x other 2ZZ's went in just to get running – each with their own problems (head gasket, and bad knock). So I missed the next 5 rounds, and only got back running for rounds 7 and 8 (with my 4th engine).

After the debut season, I decided to get an engine built, well rather rebuilt using engine #4.

(https://i.ibb.co/vvdxCk7/engine-1.png) (https://i.ibb.co/7N0sDNx/engine-2.png)

All went well, engine was making fantastic power across the range. Took it to Knockhill and was very happy with the initial performance during a track day. Car still needed set up, but the times were already matching my best – was confident I built a car that was going to be very competitive. Got the car set up, and on another track day it was surpassing my vmax from the previous year - but weather meant I couldn't do like for like comparisions.

Then Covid happened....... And the season got pushed back until August. So took the car out for a track night on the eve of the new season and..... this happened.

(https://i.ibb.co/2Z95zM1/engine-3.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/HV7rvXz/engine-4.png)

A valve had snapped on the stem, about 5mm below the collet and well, that was my newly built head and block wrecked.

So, off to the breakers to get another engine – found 1 cheaply with 140k on the clock, and it got me running for the final round of my 2nd season. However it isn't making power and is tired - my 6th engine.

So the plans for the winter.......

Currently have a big parcel on the way over from Monkeywrench racing with some important goodies, and few other parts on the way as well - so it's rebuild another engine.

Some attachments of the car until now.

(https://i.ibb.co/LQz2c2N/20200429-195054.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cbc7Z7Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZY2jthQ/83547459-3358287617535688-8231462076408890581-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Rkf8G3)
(https://i.ibb.co/cb88HQ3/69617791-367312054144716-7568452645862506496-o-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wJQQX4g)
(https://i.ibb.co/TgtFzDP/20200401-164425.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x76RVKz)
(https://i.ibb.co/HXt65bw/20200327-173946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4J8zhXv)
(https://i.ibb.co/jhnd81K/20200411-173904.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1ZF30wV)
(https://i.ibb.co/RCtdyLM/20200422-165908.jpg) (https://ibb.co/khzv1Yr)
(https://i.ibb.co/wMJRkVY/20200419-202217.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V2Ht1R3)
(https://i.ibb.co/8s92Ckm/20200423-193510.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yPq592N)
(https://i.ibb.co/dKHXb8y/123131805-669176307291621-7999260751840957815-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysxKhHJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/xzfbFX6/126557629-807942423097597-2841355465750252940-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F801Hmz)
(https://i.ibb.co/QK3bKfb/127112131-807942456430927-8328280053465876748-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9rk8rN8)
(https://i.ibb.co/k181msQ/FB-IMG-1565050208728.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zJRJ6TG)

Very unlucky indeed.
I can understand a couple of failures most 2zz have lived a hard life but what happened with the re built engine?
Was there no warranty?

Quote from: 1979scotte on December  2, 2020, 17:36Very unlucky indeed.
I can understand a couple of failures most 2zz have lived a hard life but what happened with the re built engine?
Was there no warranty?

(https://i.ibb.co/19gLRPM/117300420-608756919823768-1973098294747743110-n.png) (https://ibb.co/D7JtwvY)

Through my work I know people in metallurgy, so asked one of the guys to have a look at the failed valve. This wasn't a dropped valve in the classic sense, the actual stem had broken causing the valve to drop.

The verdict - metal fatigue failure on the valve stem brought on by a stress point, be that damage to the valve stem or a defect or an imperfection. Something had initiate the crack, probably at install or manufacture, and that had slowly progressed as the car ran until it failed. You can see it a bit in the above image, the crescent shaped ingress rings - which are typical of a stress fracture in metal

(https://www.yaang.com/Clkj_Images/upfile/201810241735493977679.jpg)

Car was ran in on a dyno, and no evidence of anything going wrong until a sudden and catastrophic failure.

Was a brand new Toyota OEM valve as well.

As for warranty, it's a race car. No evidence the builder got it wrong, and no chance Toyota are reimbursing you on a track car.

Rotten luck, fair play for keep going with it. I've had one 2zz failure and that was gutting, 5 failures though 😠

Well the plus side of it is, I've became half decent at engine switches. Can get one done in about 4hrs now. Also have a lot of spare parts.

Jeezo, that is damn unlucky. I think most people would have thrown in the towel after the last one, good to see some determination to get it going well again.

Will be good to see it going full pelt up at KH next season.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  2, 2020, 16:48(https://i.ibb.co/cb88HQ3/69617791-367312054144716-7568452645862506496-o-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wJQQX4g)

The money shot right there :D

That is some seriously bad luck with the engines - are any of the parts being carried over at all? Which sump are you using and are you checking the clearance between oil pickup and sump at each rebuild?

Hope you can get plenty of track miles in next year!

Quote from: AdamR28 on December  3, 2020, 09:29

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  2, 2020, 16:48(https://i.ibb.co/cb88HQ3/69617791-367312054144716-7568452645862506496-o-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wJQQX4g)

The money shot right there :D

That is some seriously bad luck with the engines - are any of the parts being carried over at all? Which sump are you using and are you checking the clearance between oil pickup and sump at each rebuild?

Hope you can get plenty of track miles in next year!

I use the Elise Parts sump, as well as an Accusump with 25PSI discharge valve - so guaranteed 25 PSI oil pressure or I get a bright light on (as the accusump discharges) - that only happens when the engine has just came off track and is idling, pressure drops to about 15-20 PSI - Typical track pressure is 35-50 when up to speed. Oil cooler in there as well, although sceptical of the overall effectiveness of this. Noticing no difference to the temperature (oil temp reading from both sump and the inlet of the sandwich plate) from before. I even moved the sump sensor over to the outlet of the sandwich plate so taking a reading pre and post cooler - and both read the same number.

What Santa is bringing is:

Carillo H Beam Rods
Mahle 12.3:1 Pistons
MWR flat face valves
MWR Springs and retainers
Ferrea Valve Locks
Knifed Crank Shaft
Full OEM gaskets
OEM Timing chain kit
Fully ARP studded

What is getting carried over from the old engine/box.

MWR Uprate Oil Pump
OEM Water Pump
OEM VVTi Sprocket
Stage 2 Piper Cams
Fidanza Aluminium Flywheel
OEM Coils
OEM injectors
Apexi FC ECU
As well as all the other peripheral bits.

Most of those parts have < 500 miles on them so....

Going to take one of the 3 heads I have and get an engineering shop to decide which is best and get them to give it a bit of a refurb. The block from the engine that had the head gasket blown is in very good condition and already been cleaned up - all well within the spec sheet data for cylinder bore.

Objective is to spend money to get an engine that is up to the rigours of racing. Not going for headline power, but engine response and durability.

Between the flywheel, crank and rods - it's about 6kg of saving over the stock engine on the bit that turns.

Also had this failure which lead to getting a gearbox refurb.

One of the rivets in the clutch plate seemed to sheer, and that did quite a lot of damage. Gearbox was largely fine, except a hole punched though the bell housing. So needed welded up, so thought I may as well get it refurbed.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 09:53I use the Elise Parts sump, as well as an Accusump with 25PSI discharge valve - so guaranteed 25 PSI oil pressure or I get a bright light on (as the accusump discharges) - that only happens when the engine has just came off track and is idling, pressure drops to about 15-20 PSI - Typical track pressure is 35-50 when up to speed. Oil cooler in there as well, although sceptical of the overall effectiveness of this. Noticing no difference to the temperature (oil temp reading from both sump and the inlet of the sandwich plate) from before. I even moved the sump sensor over to the outlet of the sandwich plate so taking a reading pre and post cooler - and both read the same number.

I did wonder what the photo of the oil cooler was showing - I very much doubt there is any airflow there, and I guess your test proves it. Unfortunately you are just lugging around extra weight, more potential failure points, and causing a drop in flow.

What oil temps are you seeing? How much clearance is there from bottom of sump to oil pickup?

I don't have direct experience with the Accusump (seems like a bit of a 'sticking plaster' to me) but I do know of people who have good success with them.

My experience with this sort of thing is that even if you have enough pressure, flow might be your issue as that does a significant part of the cooling...


Here's some of my 'base rules' gleaned from a few years of research and various failed (and race-winning!) engine builds. Apologies in advance if any of this is 'teaching you to suck eggs'!

- Oil pressure needs to be a minimum of 7psi per 1000rpm. More than this and you're wasting energy, less than this and you can run into trouble. In fact, more pressure adds extra heat to the oil as you're working it hard pushing it through all those galleries. For the 2ZZ in lift, I would want to see 50psi minimum climbing to 60psi at full chat. Idle pressure is largely inconsequential except for being an indicator of general engine clearances - 5psi is enough.

- The oil requirements for this size / rpm of engine will mean you need an absolute minimum of -8 (1/2") hose for the cooler, and that's if the runs are very short, and any connectors MUST be the swept type (https://www.thorite.co.uk/graphics_cache/b/a/30777-sp_jf049003cf-1-3-580.jpg). Longer runs I would go to -10.

- Any hoses are to be kept as short as possible to remove losses to both flow and pressure.

- Oil temp should sit steady, between 90'C and 120'C, depending on ambient. 130'C is ok for short periods with modern fully synth oils. Over 120'C, the internal parts of the engine will swell enough to start groaning against each other - losing power, creating even more heat, and speeding up wear.

- Keep it simple. More stuff = more weight, more chances of a leak and more chances of a pressure drop / loss. If a properly baffled and gated wet sump and no oil cooler, or the OE heat exchanger, does the job - stick with that.

- Throwing the kitchen sink at an engine is no guarantee of reliability - in fact I find OE parts are often better than aftermarket, providing you aren't asking the engine to do tons more RPM or make 30, 40, 50% more power than standard.

- Any machining should be done to OE spec tolerances, and use 'beardy blokes in a shed down a back lane' type machine shops, if you can find one. I've seen various 'race' engine builders do stuff slack as hell in order to 'make more power', only to have them look like a bag of spanners when opened up after only a season, or fail altogether much faster than this. Yes, you are using the engine hard, but providing temperatures are being kept within the right windows, this is only the usage the manufacturer intended and developed it for!

- Fit a brand new, OE oil pump every time - even if the cost seems horrendous.

- I agree that 'overbuilding' the engine and then keeping it to a safe (250-500rpm less than it 'could' spin at) rev limit is a good way to make it last. I have done that in the past with very good success - a few years of track days and sprinting from 130bhp/litre C20XE with nothing other than oil changes required. It was built to rev to 8500 but I kept the limiter at 8k.

As I said, sorry if any of that is already obvious, but hopefully there may be something there that makes you go 'ah-ha!' and can prevent another lost engine.


That clutch failure is properly weird. Maybe you should call the car Christine!

Quote from: AdamR28 on December  3, 2020, 15:35

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 09:53I use the Elise Parts sump, as well as an Accusump with 25PSI discharge valve - so guaranteed 25 PSI oil pressure or I get a bright light on (as the accusump discharges) - that only happens when the engine has just came off track and is idling, pressure drops to about 15-20 PSI - Typical track pressure is 35-50 when up to speed. Oil cooler in there as well, although sceptical of the overall effectiveness of this. Noticing no difference to the temperature (oil temp reading from both sump and the inlet of the sandwich plate) from before. I even moved the sump sensor over to the outlet of the sandwich plate so taking a reading pre and post cooler - and both read the same number.

I did wonder what the photo of the oil cooler was showing - I very much doubt there is any airflow there, and I guess your test proves it. Unfortunately you are just lugging around extra weight, more potential failure points, and causing a drop in flow.

What oil temps are you seeing? How much clearance is there from bottom of sump to oil pickup?

I don't have direct experience with the Accusump (seems like a bit of a 'sticking plaster' to me) but I do know of people who have good success with them.

My experience with this sort of thing is that even if you have enough pressure, flow might be your issue as that does a significant part of the cooling...


Here's some of my 'base rules' gleaned from a few years of research and various failed (and race-winning!) engine builds. Apologies in advance if any of this is 'teaching you to suck eggs'!

- Oil pressure needs to be a minimum of 7psi per 1000rpm. More than this and you're wasting energy, less than this and you can run into trouble. In fact, more pressure adds extra heat to the oil as you're working it hard pushing it through all those galleries. For the 2ZZ in lift, I would want to see 50psi minimum climbing to 60psi at full chat. Idle pressure is largely inconsequential except for being an indicator of general engine clearances - 5psi is enough.

- The oil requirements for this size / rpm of engine will mean you need an absolute minimum of -8 (1/2") hose for the cooler, and that's if the runs are very short, and any connectors MUST be the swept type (https://www.thorite.co.uk/graphics_cache/b/a/30777-sp_jf049003cf-1-3-580.jpg). Longer runs I would go to -10.

- Any hoses are to be kept as short as possible to remove losses to both flow and pressure.

- Oil temp should sit steady, between 90'C and 120'C, depending on ambient. 130'C is ok for short periods with modern fully synth oils. Over 120'C, the internal parts of the engine will swell enough to start groaning against each other - losing power, creating even more heat, and speeding up wear.

- Keep it simple. More stuff = more weight, more chances of a leak and more chances of a pressure drop / loss. If a properly baffled and gated wet sump and no oil cooler, or the OE heat exchanger, does the job - stick with that.

- Throwing the kitchen sink at an engine is no guarantee of reliability - in fact I find OE parts are often better than aftermarket, providing you aren't asking the engine to do tons more RPM or make 30, 40, 50% more power than standard.

- Any machining should be done to OE spec tolerances, and use 'beardy blokes in a shed down a back lane' type machine shops, if you can find one. I've seen various 'race' engine builders do stuff slack as hell in order to 'make more power', only to have them look like a bag of spanners when opened up after only a season, or fail altogether much faster than this. Yes, you are using the engine hard, but providing temperatures are being kept within the right windows, this is only the usage the manufacturer intended and developed it for!

- Fit a brand new, OE oil pump every time - even if the cost seems horrendous.

- I agree that 'overbuilding' the engine and then keeping it to a safe (250-500rpm less than it 'could' spin at) rev limit is a good way to make it last. I have done that in the past with very good success - a few years of track days and sprinting from 130bhp/litre C20XE with nothing other than oil changes required. It was built to rev to 8500 but I kept the limiter at 8k.

As I said, sorry if any of that is already obvious, but hopefully there may be something there that makes you go 'ah-ha!' and can prevent another lost engine.


That clutch failure is properly weird. Maybe you should call the car Christine!

The strangest thing about the clutch failure was it just happened. I was sitting at low revs having a cooling lap trying to find space to go for a hot lap and bang..... I would have expected that type of failure - if it was going to happen - during a downshift at race speed.

Oil cooler is actually a kit for the car, came with the little bracket and everything - it's on the air duct, it does get some flow as the scoops are enlarged, but I'm still wary of it. On a longer stint I see 110*c but rarely much above that. Always using Millers NT+ as well. It's all -10 hoses, and short as possible in the main system - lack of space means the accusump has to be in the front, but the valve is right at the sandwich plate - so the hose is under pressure at all times. The accusump is a bit of a sticking plaster solution, I agree, but going full dry sump is expensive and I'm not even sure there is enough room to do it. The accusump guarantees I am getting some oil pressure within about 0.5 secs, should anything go wrong or the pressure drop suddenly for whatever reason. The discharge gives about 6-7 seconds of guaranteed 30 PSI oil supply - but it's enough time to notice the light and do something about it. It's also useful for pre-oiling the engine prior to starting. The whole system weighs about 5.5kg plus an extra 2 litres of oil.

The plan with this engine, is I'm limited with how much power I can make with the series I race in being power to weight ratio. So the theory is cut the very top part of the lift and limit the engine to about 175-176 bhp, whilst significantly improving the responsiveness with lightening the turny bit, and flattening the torque curve a bit with the cams, and running slightly higher compression - again should give a bit more torque.

I like using OE stuff, but the 2 big failures I've had have been an OE Valve and OE bearing. The OE oil pump is known for gear failure=s hence why I've went for the MWR option - I am loathed to change a part for new that has maybe only done 300 miles, of which 150 were running in on a dyno.

Absolutely agree 100% on keeping everything to within OE spec with machining. Minimal machining hopefully required, but I've got a good machine shop I use - they aren't motorsport and I use them for 2 reasons

1) the word motorsport on a company name seems to add a 50% premium for the same service. Granted there are times when you need the motorsport garage.
2) I know and trust them.

I'm ruining the Elise parts sump and it actually holds 5.7L of oil so pick up should never be an issue. My first engine even ran with <4L of oil with the EP sump before it went pop (Rogue didn't space the dipstick properly on the build) so anything over 5L and you are absolutely fine even on slicks.

I don't run a cooler or have an oil temp gauge but I just keep stints to around 10-15 minutes at a time to try and reduce overheating.

All in hand then - top banana! New engine should be bob on all being well.

I'll keep the thread up to date with the strip down and clean up.

Going to tackle the bottom end rebuild myself, but will probably give the top end to somebody to set up properly.

One question I have and always wondered.

The VVT Sprocket, can this be unlocked by taking the front cover off and pulling the pin - and reassembling unlocked. Then attaching to the cams unlocked that way.

As opposed to faffing about with air lines trying to unlock it?

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 19:11I'll keep the thread up to date with the strip down and clean up.

Going to tackle the bottom end rebuild myself, but will probably give the top end to somebody to set up properly.

One question I have and always wondered.

The VVT Sprocket, can this be unlocked by taking the front cover off and pulling the pin - and reassembling unlocked. Then attaching to the cams unlocked that way.

As opposed to faffing about with air lines trying to unlock it?

I rebuilt the top end of mine mate and its a piece if piss, first time opening an engine for me and its still going strong 8 track days later. Regarding the VVT sprocket you can just pull the cams out and whip the sprocket off that way. It sits in a grove If I remember correctly so can't really fit it incorrectly.

I used this set of youtube clips for guidance.

Quote from: JB21 on December  3, 2020, 19:30

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 19:11I'll keep the thread up to date with the strip down and clean up.

Going to tackle the bottom end rebuild myself, but will probably give the top end to somebody to set up properly.

One question I have and always wondered.

The VVT Sprocket, can this be unlocked by taking the front cover off and pulling the pin - and reassembling unlocked. Then attaching to the cams unlocked that way.

As opposed to faffing about with air lines trying to unlock it?

I rebuilt the top end of mine mate and its a piece if piddle, first time opening an engine for me and its still going strong 8 track days later. Regarding the VVT sprocket you can just pull the cams out and whip the sprocket off that way. It sits in a grove If I remember correctly so can't really fit it incorrectly.

I used this set of youtube clips for guidance.

I'm switching cams though, the Piper cams don't have a sprocket on them just now.

Useful video though, thanks

(https://i.ibb.co/tpLbd3B/IMG-20201204-171914-847.jpg)

A parcel came today.

Just waiting on the rods and crank

So put the head and block into the machine shop for a refurbishment. Never actually told them what the engine was as I didn't think.

I've got the block back and they've honed the cylinders, which as far as I understand is something you do in nearly all car engines including the 1ZZ, but NOT the 2ZZ due to its ceramic coating (which just looks like glazed metal).

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 14:55So put the head and block into the machine shop for a refurbishment. Never actually told them what the engine was as I didn't think.

I've got the block back and they've honed the cylinders, which as far as I understand is something you do in nearly all car engines including the 1ZZ, but NOT the 2ZZ due to its ceramic coating (which just looks like glazed metal).

Thats that block fit for scrap then as your right cant touch bores on 2zz :(  you could get liners fitted which is pricey job  though!

Nikasil coating can't be reapplied then?

Quote from: thetyrant on December 10, 2020, 14:59

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 14:55So put the head and block into the machine shop for a refurbishment. Never actually told them what the engine was as I didn't think.

I've got the block back and they've honed the cylinders, which as far as I understand is something you do in nearly all car engines including the 1ZZ, but NOT the 2ZZ due to its ceramic coating (which just looks like glazed metal).

Thats that block fit for scrap then as your right cant touch bores on 2zz :(  you could get liners fitted which is pricey job  though!

Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

Quote from: 1979scotte on December 10, 2020, 15:09Nikasil coating can't be reapplied then?

It can on 2 stroke motorbike barrels but imagine it would be a mission on a 2zz block but you never know.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 15:17Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

Indeed unless going booster no point in liners really and often doesnt get done right!

If they used any type of abrasive in cylinder the coating will be shot as its only microns thick, if its coarse feeling or looking its no good :(

Somebody like this should be able to sort it but what cost who knows... https://poetonaptec.co.uk/our-services/

Quote from: thetyrant on December 10, 2020, 15:43

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 15:17Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

Indeed unless going booster no point in liners really and often doesnt get done right!

If they used any type of abrasive in cylinder the coating will be shot as its only microns thick, if its coarse feeling or looking its no good :(

it isn't bad, but there is a roughness - I would generally agree it is f*cked.

I'm starting to get depressed with this motorsport thing - I keep feeling I'm doing the right thing but always something goes wrong. My racing record of 14 events entered, 4 events finished plays testimony to that.

A stupid little thing has just cost me over a grand.

I think you've fucked it.

There's an interesting thread here: https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/sleeving-2zz-engine-vs-the-alternative.44931/

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a whole brand new built short motor from Toyota. It'll be expensive, but it will absolutely last as long as you'll ever reasonably need it to.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:05

Quote from: thetyrant on December 10, 2020, 15:43

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 15:17Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

Indeed unless going booster no point in liners really and often doesnt get done right!

If they used any type of abrasive in cylinder the coating will be shot as its only microns thick, if its coarse feeling or looking its no good :(

it isn't bad, but there is a roughness - I would generally agree it is f*cked.

I'm starting to get depressed with this motorsport thing - I keep feeling I'm doing the right thing but always something goes wrong. My racing record of 14 events entered, 4 events finished plays testimony to that.

A stupid little thing has just cost me over a grand.

Modified motors mate they're trouble.
I feel your pain

Nikasil can be reapplied. We used to do it on dirt bikes.

https://www.poeton.co.uk/advanced-treatments/apticote-2000-nickel-silicon-carbide/

Any idea the sort of cost involved?

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:37Any idea the sort of cost involved?

I just tried Poeton for a 'quote', unfortunately they finish for the day at 4:30pm.
Will give them a call in the morning.
There is a datasheet on their website and they have a dedicated 'motorsport' department.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 10, 2020, 16:55

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:37Any idea the sort of cost involved?

I just tried Poeton for a 'quote', unfortunately they finish for the day at 4:30pm.
Will give them a call in the morning.
There is a datasheet on their website and they have a dedicated 'motorsport' department.

Will be interesting to see what they quote, only experience ive had in past like this is 2 stroke motorbike cylinders but that was many many years ago!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ENGINE-TOYOTA-2ZZ-GE-VVTL-i-FOR-CELICA-COROLLA-TS-MATRIX-LOTUS-1-8-LTR-1999-04-/173354909103?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

Getting a built engine isn't really a desirable option - literally just spent 2 grand on parts to rebuild.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 10, 2020, 16:55

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:37Any idea the sort of cost involved?

I just tried Poeton for a 'quote', unfortunately they finish for the day at 4:30pm.
Will give them a call in the morning.
There is a datasheet on their website and they have a dedicated 'motorsport' department.

Sorry for the delay in responding – had to deal with a domestic crisis!
Spoke with Poeton (Gloucester) on Friday afternoon.
Unfortunately, they have streamlined their "Apticote 2000" process such that it is only available for Aluminium items.
Interestingly though, they 'overplate' and then hone to achieve the finished dimension and to guarantee true 'roundness' of the liner bore.
I assume your machine shop were honing to match the Mahle pistons?
If so, how much of the original 'plating' have they actually removed? Paradoxically, the harder the liner surface, the softer the honing medium, so is this just a visual thing rather than loss of the 'plating'?

It was a soft hone using 800 grade stone - still smooth to the touch but appears crosshatched rather than dull grey.

The cylinders are still within Toyota manual spec. 82 point something millimetres - I can't recall the exact number, but were checked with a bore gauge.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 15, 2020, 01:04It was a soft hone using 800 grade stone - still smooth to the touch but appears crosshatched rather than dull grey.

The cylinders are still within Toyota manual spec. 82 point something millimetres - I can't recall the exact number, but were checked with a bore gauge.

So, if the bores are still within tolerance and assuming that Toyota aimed for a 'thicker' plating
of 0.005"/0.127mm, then you're good to go?

What I find strange is that given all the posts about the 2zz there is 'no mention' until now of ceramic coating of the bores. It also begs the question: where does it officially state that the 1zz didn't receive the coating?
Just a thought.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28So, if the bores are still within tolerance and assuming that Toyota aimed for a 'thicker' plating
of 0.005"/0.127mm, then you're good to go?

That is quite some assumption about the thicker plating etc!.... these bore coatings are generally only microns thick so any visible marks usually means its compromised, it may or may not be ok but its a lot of work to build an engine in the hope the bores are ok not going to wear out due to plating compromise.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28What I find strange is that given all the posts about the 2zz there is 'no mention' until now of ceramic coating of the bores. It also begs the question: where does it officially state that the 1zz didn't receive the coating?
Just a thought.

Is pretty well known about the 2zz bore coating but of course not everybody is aware of the issues, its one of the reasons ive not gone 2zz in past as if the engine turns out to have bore wear its not a simple a s hone or rebore and pistons to suit like it is with 1zz.

The 1zz doesnt have the coating and has thin steel/iron liners instead which and can be honed/deglazed if everything else is good, ive done this on engine in my car and about to do it on the spare 1zz im building up, obviously bores need to be within spec to get away with doing this. You can i believe give it a slight overbore as well if marked beyond honing limits.

Quote from: thetyrant on December 15, 2020, 14:33

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28So, if the bores are still within tolerance and assuming that Toyota aimed for a 'thicker' plating
of 0.005"/0.127mm, then you're good to go?

That is quite some assumption about the thicker plating etc!.... these bore coatings are generally only microns thick so any visible marks usually means its compromised, it may or may not be ok but its a lot of work to build an engine in the hope the bores are ok not going to wear out due to plating compromise.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28What I find strange is that given all the posts about the 2zz there is 'no mention' until now of ceramic coating of the bores. It also begs the question: where does it officially state that the 1zz didn't receive the coating?
Just a thought.

Is pretty well known about the 2zz bore coating but of course not everybody is aware of the issues, its one of the reasons ive not gone 2zz in past as if the engine turns out to have bore wear its not a simple a s hone or rebore and pistons to suit like it is with 1zz.

The 1zz doesnt have the coating and has thin steel/iron liners instead which and can be honed/deglazed if everything else is good, ive done this on engine in my car and about to do it on the spare 1zz im building up, obviously bores need to be within spec to get away with doing this. You can i believe give it a slight overbore as well if marked beyond honing limits.

Not an assumption.
The Nikasil application on the Wankel engine was 200 microns thick for example.
Interestingly, Nikasil was developed by Mahle in conjunction with NSU and Daimler Benz.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 14:47Not an assumption.
The Nikasil application on the Wankel engine was 200 microns thick for example.
Interestingly, Nikasil was developed by Mahle in conjunction with NSU and Daimler Benz.

How is that not an assumption though ? you cant assume Toyota or anyone else did the same especially on a totally different piston engine rather than a rotary wankel ...also how do you know what thickness is left on OP bores and that plating isnt compromised ? remember this is an aluminum bore with a very thin ceramic coating to make it hard enough for pistons and rings to have serviceable life, any damage to coating and the pistons/rings will soon destroy the rest engine and probably head as well due to all the fine particles,  that is point i was getting at :D

Hopefully it can be repaired or at very least inspected by a company with the correct equipment to make the call :)

Also to add the 2zz isnt Nicasil coating its some kind of ceramic, whatever that means! :D

Quote from: thetyrant on December 15, 2020, 16:14

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 14:47Not an assumption.
The Nikasil application on the Wankel engine was 200 microns thick for example.
Interestingly, Nikasil was developed by Mahle in conjunction with NSU and Daimler Benz.

How is that not an assumption though ? you cant assume Toyota or anyone else did the same especially on a totally different piston engine rather than a rotary wankel ...also how do you know what thickness is left on OP bores and that plating isnt compromised ? remember this is an aluminum bore with a very thin ceramic coating to make it hard enough for pistons and rings to have serviceable life, any damage to coating and the pistons/rings will soon destroy the rest engine and probably head as well due to all the fine particles,  that is point i was getting at :D

Hopefully it can be repaired or at very least inspected by a company with the correct equipment to make the call :)

Also to add the 2zz isnt Nicasil coating its some kind of ceramic, whatever that means! :D

Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 16, 2020, 11:00Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

Interesting, are the people who are saying its ok familiar with the 2zz engine and its coating on cylinders etc ?

Can you get pictures of how it looks now ?

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1bae/5ef40c5685401b2c829be7f66b7781fe95dc.pdf

https://www.newcelica.org/threads/questions-to-those-who-honed-out-your-block.379233/

http://www.engineprofessional.com/TB/TB073117-2.pdf

To give some contrast I put an old piston in the hole.

On another note.... top ends just about completed.

20201216_234147.jpgIMG_20201214_151328_773.jpgIMG_20201216_154410_500.jpg

Quote from: thetyrant on December 16, 2020, 11:31

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 16, 2020, 11:00Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

Interesting, are the people who are saying its ok familiar with the 2zz engine and its coating on cylinders etc ?

Can you get pictures of how it looks now ?

I won't name names, as its "off the record" advice and well maybe not something they want attributed to on a forum.

1 company who build engines and maybe known as a lotus and race engine specialist..... said it will be fine.

1 company who sell parts and build engines..... and both a Toyota and Lotus specialist said..... it will need sleeved.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 17, 2020, 08:12

Quote from: thetyrant on December 16, 2020, 11:31

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 16, 2020, 11:00Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

Interesting, are the people who are saying its ok familiar with the 2zz engine and its coating on cylinders etc ?

Can you get pictures of how it looks now ?

I won't name names, as its "off the record" advice and well maybe not something they want attributed to on a forum.

1 company who build engines and maybe known as a lotus and race engine specialist..... said it will be fine.

1 company who sell parts and build engines..... and both a Toyota and Lotus specialist said..... it will need sleeved.

Thats fair enough, looking at the pictures i still think its a gamble so depends if your willing to take it, best case its perfect with no issues, next best case its ok but uses oil due to poor ring seal which i would say is most likley, worst case it destroys the bores, pistons and rest of engine if filled with swarf etc.

I doubt there are many if any places that would or could tell you for 100% certainty whats going to happen as its a specialised area and its unlikley that any pro shop would take the risk due to potential comeback, it maybe some places have a specific very mild hone they use in cases like these and run it a certain amount to keep material removal to a minimum but without them doing it its an unknown.

I would say buy another used 2zz and use that block if all inspects good, or take the risk on what you have but imo its not worth it but each to their own.

Good luck with it though and hopefully back out getting used in anger soon :D

Trouble is budget. I'm way over budget already for next season and just lost my job.

Not sure its sensible to spend another £600-800 on another engine - spend the time stripping it - and then there is the risk the block inside isn't great. Either way it will be the guts of a grand of spend by time it gets reconned.

I'm not keen on sleeving. Expensive and adds a layers of un-needed complexity.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 17, 2020, 12:36Trouble is budget. I'm way over budget already for next season and just lost my job.

Not sure its sensible to spend another £600-800 on another engine - spend the time stripping it - and then there is the risk the block inside isn't great. Either way it will be the guts of a grand of spend by time it gets reconned.

I'm not keen on sleeving. Expensive and adds a layers of un-needed complexity.

Indeed its a tricky one!   i suppose you could build this one up and just keep a very close eye on oil consumption and filter the oil for particles when changed, if it starts to burn oil you know the rings havent sealed onto the bores but biggest risk is damaging the new pistons and the rebuilt head etc, any debris get into head and cam journals its toast.

Looking at this scored 2zz block on ebay your finish looks ok its just hard to say for sure - 2zz damaged block on ebay (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Engine-block-is-Defective-Lotus-Toyota-1-8-16V-2ZZ-GE/224260765141?hash=item3436fbb5d5:g:cLgAAOSwLgNfrno-)

Ended up sourcing another block, whilst planning on getting one sleeved, I'll build another engine after this one.

Reassemble time.

Looking for valve shims that are slightly thinner than the 2mm smallest offered by Toyota (I need about 1.8mm).

Any idea where these could be purchased?

Quote from: AJRFulton on January 26, 2021, 16:35Looking for valve shims that are slightly thinner than the 2mm smallest offered by Toyota (I need about 1.8mm).

Any idea where these could be purchased?

You can get them directly from Toyota in various sizes - you can usually swap some of them around from other valves so you don't always need to get new ones. There is also an ROC 'bucket bank' if you know which ones you are after.

Edit - sorry missed it was a 2zz

Quote from: m1tch on January 27, 2021, 15:47

Quote from: AJRFulton on January 26, 2021, 16:35Looking for valve shims that are slightly thinner than the 2mm smallest offered by Toyota (I need about 1.8mm).

Any idea where these could be purchased?

You can get them directly from Toyota in various sizes - you can usually swap some of them around from other valves so you don't always need to get new ones. There is also an ROC 'bucket bank' if you know which ones you are after.

Edit - sorry missed it was a 2zz

OEM for the 2ZZ only go to 2mm

I've build an engine that should safely rev to 9500 rpm, but with reseating the valves and non OEM cams and valves, they are slightly out.

I can machine you some down if your struggling

I would be very interested in that. Thank you

Let me get exact spec of exactly what I need. I'm going offshore today though, so it won't be for a couple of weeks.

Quote from: AJRFulton on January 27, 2021, 16:32

Quote from: m1tch on January 27, 2021, 15:47

Quote from: AJRFulton on January 26, 2021, 16:35Looking for valve shims that are slightly thinner than the 2mm smallest offered by Toyota (I need about 1.8mm).

Any idea where these could be purchased?

You can get them directly from Toyota in various sizes - you can usually swap some of them around from other valves so you don't always need to get new ones. There is also an ROC 'bucket bank' if you know which ones you are after.

Edit - sorry missed it was a 2zz

OEM for the 2ZZ only go to 2mm

I've build an engine that should safely rev to 9500 rpm, but with reseating the valves and non OEM cams and valves, they are slightly out.

Might be worth looking at solid buckets instead then? My 1zz turbo cams needed a larger bucket than Toyota offered so in the end I went with an OEM cam as I didn't like the idea of a high revving engine having shims - the 1zz solid buckets are an upgrade for the 2JZ and 3S engines. I guess with the stock engine revving to 8,300 with shims the design must be ok to rev, would still be worried about a shim popping out though. Not having a 2zz I don't know if it uses a shim on bucket or a lash cap - you can easily get lash caps down to about 1mm - was looking at this option initially on my 1zz build - looks like they are 5.5mm so you can easily get smaller lash caps.

Quote from: AJRFulton on January 28, 2021, 09:03I would be very interested in that. Thank you

Let me get exact spec of exactly what I need. I'm going offshore today though, so it won't be for a couple of weeks.

No problem, if you send me ones you have and what you need them to be i can carefully surface grind down to correct thickness for you :)

IMG_20210220_222902_374.jpgIMG_20210220_192137_754.jpg

That's the bottom end built. About 100g lighter per rod and piston and happy to say they are within a gram of each other, so interesting to see what that does to the response. Everything barring the shims/cams have went in to spec, so very painless build so far.

Not going for power, but it's about giving the engine the best chance to cope with circuit racing whilst developing about OEM power.

Nice, that'll move through the rev range pretty swiftly.

Out of interest what power do you think it'll make if mapped for full chat, and how will you limit it, if required, to make the p/w ratio for SLS? What weight does the car come in at with the stripped interior, cage etc?

Quote from: Roj on February 24, 2021, 17:40Nice, that'll move through the rev range pretty swiftly.

Out of interest what power do you think it'll make if mapped for full chat, and how will you limit it, if required, to make the p/w ratio for SLS? What weight does the car come in at with the stripped interior, cage etc?

930kg with 1/3rd of a tank. 1030kg with me fully kitted.

Will rev limit it and retard the injection on the mapping.

Will make about 170-175bhp mapped for SLS class F.

Probably would do 190bhp at full beans, but its overbuilt for being able to take 20 lap sessions and maximise the mid range grunt (key for a series that is based on power to weight).

I would find it hard to compete with the cars in class E running at 195bhp, the class winners there are 1200kg cars running 260bhp-ish (turboed).

I'm 30bhp and a big chunk of mid-range torque short of being competitive going up a class, hence detune the car for class F.

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 24, 2021, 23:06

Quote from: Roj on February 24, 2021, 17:40Nice, that'll move through the rev range pretty swiftly.

Out of interest what power do you think it'll make if mapped for full chat, and how will you limit it, if required, to make the p/w ratio for SLS? What weight does the car come in at with the stripped interior, cage etc?

930kg with 1/3rd of a tank. 1030kg with me fully kitted.

Will rev limit it and retard the injection on the mapping.

Will make about 170-175bhp mapped for SLS class F.

Probably would do 190bhp at full beans, but its overbuilt for being able to take 20 lap sessions and maximise the mid range grunt (key for a series that is based on power to weight).

I would find it hard to compete with the cars in class E running at 195bhp, the class winners there are 1200kg cars running 260bhp-ish (turboed).

I'm 30bhp and a big chunk of mid-range torque short of being competitive going up a class, hence detune the car for class F.

Cool, thanks for the info.

I'm thinking about entering Class G this year. If you're 930kg stripped and caged, I reckon I'll be about 100kg more in roadgoing trim, semi-stripped, half cage, decent seat. Add me and it should easily slip under 130bhp/t as I assume it'll be down on the original 140bhp.

Quote from: Roj on February 25, 2021, 19:55

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 24, 2021, 23:06

Quote from: Roj on February 24, 2021, 17:40Nice, that'll move through the rev range pretty swiftly.

Out of interest what power do you think it'll make if mapped for full chat, and how will you limit it, if required, to make the p/w ratio for SLS? What weight does the car come in at with the stripped interior, cage etc?

930kg with 1/3rd of a tank. 1030kg with me fully kitted.

Will rev limit it and retard the injection on the mapping.

Will make about 170-175bhp mapped for SLS class F.

Probably would do 190bhp at full beans, but its overbuilt for being able to take 20 lap sessions and maximise the mid range grunt (key for a series that is based on power to weight).

I would find it hard to compete with the cars in class E running at 195bhp, the class winners there are 1200kg cars running 260bhp-ish (turboed).

I'm 30bhp and a big chunk of mid-range torque short of being competitive going up a class, hence detune the car for class F.

Cool, thanks for the info.

I'm thinking about entering Class G this year. If you're 930kg stripped and caged, I reckon I'll be about 100kg more in roadgoing trim, semi-stripped, half cage, decent seat. Add me and it should easily slip under 130bhp/t as I assume it'll be down on the original 140bhp.

1ZZ will be class G, almost certainly, even stripped a bit.

If your doing G road going. 66-67s will be competitive times, which I recall you saying you were doing, so don't fear you're going to be 'slow'.

The Mini's dominate the G class, but they are all built Celticspeed Cooper Cup cars, driven by fairly handy drivers doing 63-62's.

SLS will be good this year, I'm probably going to be more Modsports focused but doing both

Bringing Modsports, Legends and SLS onto the same calendar will mean it's a relatively large meet. Initial indication is the grids are looking healthy.

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 26, 2021, 18:32

Quote from: Roj on February 25, 2021, 19:55

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 24, 2021, 23:06

Quote from: Roj on February 24, 2021, 17:40Nice, that'll move through the rev range pretty swiftly.

Out of interest what power do you think it'll make if mapped for full chat, and how will you limit it, if required, to make the p/w ratio for SLS? What weight does the car come in at with the stripped interior, cage etc?

930kg with 1/3rd of a tank. 1030kg with me fully kitted.

Will rev limit it and retard the injection on the mapping.

Will make about 170-175bhp mapped for SLS class F.

Probably would do 190bhp at full beans, but its overbuilt for being able to take 20 lap sessions and maximise the mid range grunt (key for a series that is based on power to weight).

I would find it hard to compete with the cars in class E running at 195bhp, the class winners there are 1200kg cars running 260bhp-ish (turboed).

I'm 30bhp and a big chunk of mid-range torque short of being competitive going up a class, hence detune the car for class F.

Cool, thanks for the info.

I'm thinking about entering Class G this year. If you're 930kg stripped and caged, I reckon I'll be about 100kg more in roadgoing trim, semi-stripped, half cage, decent seat. Add me and it should easily slip under 130bhp/t as I assume it'll be down on the original 140bhp.

1ZZ will be class G, almost certainly, even stripped a bit.

If your doing G road going. 66-67s will be competitive times, which I recall you saying you were doing, so don't fear you're going to be 'slow'.

The Mini's dominate the G class, but they are all built Celticspeed Cooper Cup cars, driven by fairly handy drivers doing 63-62's.

SLS will be good this year, I'm probably going to be more Modsports focused but doing both

Bringing Modsports, Legends and SLS onto the same calendar will mean it's a relatively large meet. Initial indication is the grids are looking healthy.

Sounds great. This year will be a recce more than anything, finding my feet before deciding what to do in future.

Yeah, constant low 67s with a clear track, bone stock on Avon SV7s. A bit of work on the car, decent rubber and some tuition for me should hopefully bring that down a wee bit. I had a look at past lap times for each class, the Minis in G are quicker than some of the Clios in F! Quick wee things.

Quote from: Roj on February 26, 2021, 18:46

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 26, 2021, 18:32

Quote from: Roj on February 25, 2021, 19:55

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 24, 2021, 23:06

Quote from: Roj on February 24, 2021, 17:40Nice, that'll move through the rev range pretty swiftly.

Out of interest what power do you think it'll make if mapped for full chat, and how will you limit it, if required, to make the p/w ratio for SLS? What weight does the car come in at with the stripped interior, cage etc?

930kg with 1/3rd of a tank. 1030kg with me fully kitted.

Will rev limit it and retard the injection on the mapping.

Will make about 170-175bhp mapped for SLS class F.

Probably would do 190bhp at full beans, but its overbuilt for being able to take 20 lap sessions and maximise the mid range grunt (key for a series that is based on power to weight).

I would find it hard to compete with the cars in class E running at 195bhp, the class winners there are 1200kg cars running 260bhp-ish (turboed).

I'm 30bhp and a big chunk of mid-range torque short of being competitive going up a class, hence detune the car for class F.

Cool, thanks for the info.

I'm thinking about entering Class G this year. If you're 930kg stripped and caged, I reckon I'll be about 100kg more in roadgoing trim, semi-stripped, half cage, decent seat. Add me and it should easily slip under 130bhp/t as I assume it'll be down on the original 140bhp.

1ZZ will be class G, almost certainly, even stripped a bit.

If your doing G road going. 66-67s will be competitive times, which I recall you saying you were doing, so don't fear you're going to be 'slow'.

The Mini's dominate the G class, but they are all built Celticspeed Cooper Cup cars, driven by fairly handy drivers doing 63-62's.

SLS will be good this year, I'm probably going to be more Modsports focused but doing both

Bringing Modsports, Legends and SLS onto the same calendar will mean it's a relatively large meet. Initial indication is the grids are looking healthy.

Sounds great. This year will be a recce more than anything, finding my feet before deciding what to do in future.

Yeah, constant low 67s with a clear track, bone stock on Avon SV7s. A bit of work on the car, decent rubber and some tuition for me should hopefully bring that down a wee bit. I had a look at past lap times for each class, the Minis in G are quicker than some of the Clios in F! Quick wee things.

Depends on the cars and drivers. Nearly all the Minis are proper kitted cars and most have a driver that knows what they are doing driving them. I can't think of any of the Mini regulars who aren't fairly experienced drivers. Adam Kindness is probably the quickest in there just now, but he is experienced with the car, is a good driver and has done thousands and thousands of laps at Knockhill. With the Covid affected season last year, a lot of the mini guys came over to get laps, and some of them are driving proper race cars, and are at good amateur/semi pro level.

Some of the clios aren't so well set up and just regular track day drivers.

If you want any tips, I know the MR2 well around Knockhill. I'm not a pro or have any great experience by any means but I've a few podiums to my name and generally competitive when my car is working.

You're welcome to try out my car as well around the track (assuming you are 5'7 to 5'10), see how different it feels to OEM and maybe give development ideas.

Thanks for the offer, very generous. I'll give you a shout when I'm next heading to a track day. Not sure when that will be now tbh, as I've just bought a much bigger project (house), so car plans are up in the air until that's all worked out.

How's the engine build going?

Cheers bud.

Build is going fine, now at point it's ready to mate top and bottom.

Biggest issue is I live in Aberdeen but my operation is based in Ayrshire - so only really getting a day at it per week.

Should be running by the end of the month

Slowly getting there, working away from home 6 days from 7 isn't aiding this.

However that's valves set, and head on.

Quote from: AJRFulton on March  7, 2021, 15:59Cheers bud.

Build is going fine, now at point it's ready to mate top and bottom.

Biggest issue is I live in Aberdeen but my operation is based in Ayrshire - so only really getting a day at it per week.

Should be running by the end of the month

I'm in Aberdeen too. Can't help in the short term, but the place I'm moving to has a big outbuilding that I'll be converting to a garage/workshop. Once it's sorted you can have use of it in return for some help with my build :)

I technically live in Aberdeen, but still have all my kit in Ayrshire, in an out building at my parents small holding.

Biggest problem is I am fairly well kitted in Ayrshire, but to buy somewhere in Aberdeen where I could do this:

20200511_225224_copy_1358x1018.jpg

I mean, I'm a single man. So even to have a house with a garage, given Aberdeen prices,  the numbers do not make sense for me.

That's a decent set up you've got there, worth travelling back down the road for.

Aye, house prices up here aren't great. They've come down a bit lately but still a long way to go before they're sensible, given the number of job losses recently.

Quote from: Roj on March 14, 2021, 11:48That's a decent set up you've got there, worth travelling back down the road for.

Aye, house prices up here aren't great. They've come down a bit lately but still a long way to go before they're sensible, given the number of job losses recently.

You guys make me laugh talking about house prices.
Whatever your paying I bet I am paying double.

Where could I find the parts numbers for valve shims on the 2zzge? I do not know the exact size yet (likely 2.15 or 2.2mm)

I'm going to need to order one (after measuring) as I've 1 clearance level just out of spec (I doubt it would make any difference as it is marginal - but for the sake of a few quid.....)

it was a faff last time - trying to explain to the apprentice on the parts desk -  a part number would make this far far easier

Screenshot_20201011-212810.png

👍

Quote from: 1979scotte on March 14, 2021, 12:36

Quote from: Roj on March 14, 2021, 11:48That's a decent set up you've got there, worth travelling back down the road for.

Aye, house prices up here aren't great. They've come down a bit lately but still a long way to go before they're sensible, given the number of job losses recently.

You guys make me laugh talking about house prices.
Whatever your paying I bet I am paying

Quote from: 1979scotte on March 14, 2021, 12:36

Quote from: Roj on March 14, 2021, 11:48That's a decent set up you've got there, worth travelling back down the road for.

Aye, house prices up here aren't great. They've come down a bit lately but still a long way to go before they're sensible, given the number of job losses recently.

You guys make me laugh talking about house prices.
Whatever your paying I bet I am paying double.

Dunno how it is where you are, but £160k seems to be the bottom end of the market for anything with any sort of garage, and that's in a scheme.

Realistically anything in an area where you'd want to stay, with a usable sized garage, bottom end starts about £220k, probably over £250k for something you'd call half decent.

Issue for me is, even with a half decent job, being single, I'm a stretching the limit of what I can get mortgage wise to get onto the bottom end of the market up here.

I'd take the point in Ayrshire though. £200k would give you a lot of options in the middle market.

Quote from: AJRFulton on March 17, 2021, 00:17

Quote from: 1979scotte on March 14, 2021, 12:36

Quote from: Roj on March 14, 2021, 11:48That's a decent set up you've got there, worth travelling back down the road for.

Aye, house prices up here aren't great. They've come down a bit lately but still a long way to go before they're sensible, given the number of job losses recently.

You guys make me laugh talking about house prices.
Whatever your paying I bet I am paying

Quote from: 1979scotte on March 14, 2021, 12:36

Quote from: Roj on March 14, 2021, 11:48That's a decent set up you've got there, worth travelling back down the road for.

Aye, house prices up here aren't great. They've come down a bit lately but still a long way to go before they're sensible, given the number of job losses recently.

You guys make me laugh talking about house prices.
Whatever your paying I bet I am paying double.

Dunno how it is where you are, but £160k seems to be the bottom end of the market for anything with any sort of garage, and that's in a scheme.

Realistically anything in an area where you'd want to stay, with a usable sized garage, bottom end starts about £220k, probably over £250k for something you'd call half decent.

Issue for me is, even with a half decent job, being single, I'm a stretching the limit of what I can get mortgage wise to get onto the bottom end of the market up here.

I'd take the point in Ayrshire though. £200k would give you a lot of options in the middle market.

I live in Bromley SE London.
Studio flats start at over 100k.

I actually live right on the edge where it is cheap.
My neighbours just sold 4 beds over 3 floors no garage parking for 1 car 390k.
I'm lucky that my parents had money to lend otherwise I'd be paying 1200 a month for rent .

Where I was born in beckenham 3 bed houses start at 450k.
My first house was 1 bed I sold that for 275k.

Wages down south are usually better until you take house and rental prices into consideration.
I am pretty sure with all this working from home people will be moving further and further outside the m25. Unfortunately working in construction central London is where its at for me.

I know that doesn't help you in anyway it just makes me smile to hear what people pay around the UK for housing.

D day.

Next 6hrs will be  ;D  or  :'(

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Well it went well.......

Got the engine in, and had car on ramp putting on lower gearbox mounts and the lights in the unit started flickering.

The 3 phase box supplying the wee cluster of units had decided to go to 3 phase heaven, so..... bank holiday weekend and what, the engineers are not fixing this until tomorrow.

Unfortunately I'm a bit time poor for the next month, working away from home.

I've been working away from home so slow progress.

Had 2 days to get this going and it's running well, some interesting noises but unsure how a forged, high compression 2zz should sound. Had to change alternator today, but it was pretty painless.

Tomorrow's task.... make it look like a race car again, and clean the thing a bit!

That's it reassembled.

Did a refurb of the back brakes today

Put it on the scales and it is 960kg with a 1/8th of a tank, so a bit stuck how to save any more weight without replacing things with lighter materials. Baffled how some guys get down to ~860kg. Admittedly I do keep roof on (aero benefit outweighs the small 15kg or so weight penalty), 3.5kg fire extinguisher, and a full cage - so carrying 60-70kg or so.

However, it feels pretty good - the car isn't road legal so had very limited running - I live very remote and rural so some scope to run it down the single track road that leads to the house, but it's only 400m or so. It is driving ok though - up to the 4k revs that I've taken it too. Compression test when hot is excellent and all cylinders are more or less identical - although I don't trust my silverline compression test kit that much to value the figures given too highly (250 Psi across all 4)

Back to my work tonight for a couple of weeks, and then dyno in a fortnight to run it in. The increased compression ratio, which with the pistons (12.3:1), flat valves (MWR claim they add 0.3 to the compression ratio), and 0.01mm head skim the compression cannot be too far off 13:1, so whilst it feels pretty good - the engine doesn't sound or feel quite right - but why would it - it's on the default 2ZZ map on the Apexi.  Curious as to how it feels on track with the lightened internals, hoping to feel a difference similar to what the Fidanza flywheel gave.

A question about a fully forged engine - is it common to hear a 'tick' from it - akin to how a diesel may sound? It definitely sounds different to how the OEM engine sounded.

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https://www.newcelica.org/threads/piston-slap.299604/

So I took the engine down to Dynatune in East Kilbride for a rolling road run in and to map the Apexi


Small issue with a cooling pipe needing tightened (which is why a hub dyno is great for running in - see every drip on the floor), but a 7mm socket and a few clockwise turns fixed that.

Only issue is lift not always engaging (thread about Loom in maintenance section), but it has been a recurring issue with the car and that is now the 3rd engine it has happened on.

Anyway the car as making 153 bhp at the wheels without lift - so just under 180 bhp at the flywheel - which I'm happy enough with as the engine will still be tight and lift isn't engaged. As I've said before for class season the top end of the car will be limited to about 175bhp anyway.

IMG-20210528-WA0003.jpeg

Friday night I got a text from a friend and invited her along to the track day. Dug out the old race seat and put it in as a passenger. Great chance to use the power ratchet I just bought - which made a job that used to be a real faff - a lot easier.

IMG-20210528-WA0019.jpeg

Off to Knockhill- - 2 hour trek with the trailer - glorious weather

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Wasn't taking the track day too seriously, it was purely to get some track miles into the car and find teething issues - never bothered with a timer to remove any temptation to start chasing the clock.

Got a black flag after 10-15 laps as the car was smoking = but it was the gearbox breather spitting oil onto the exhaust. Generally the engine felt strong but there are a few connection issues with the loom. Sort out the teething problems, get lift working again, put on proper tyres and get the suspension set up properly again - and I'm pretty confident the car will be competitive.

Happy with how the car picks up with the lighter internals, the rebuilt box feels good in the change but..... still has the issue of being geared too long and there not being a right gear to be in between 55-65mph.

As for my friend - first time on track and she was a decent passenger.

Good work, 153hp at the wheels is often around what 2zz cars do with lift from what ive seen, so thats good numbers without lift! the new build setup is working well :)

Did you get a dyno graph ?

Racing at Croft. Dropped an injector.

Anyone local help me out otherwise it's a 350 mile round trip to meet my sister half way.

and the engine is fucked...... started to lose power then failed on lap 2 of the race. The injector failed during qualifying the previous day.

Drove up from Suffolk (where I'm working on a contract), back to Scotland - collected the car and drove to Croft, then an injector failed and had to meet my sister half way with spares, then Croft back to Ayrshire.... and about to drive back to Suffolk. Been one hell of a weekend.

Not sure what has happened. When I rebuilt this engine I put 4 new OEM injectors and coils on it. One of the new injectors failed on track, I think intermitted at first before packing in completely - qualifying was in torrential rain so it was hard to tell the car was down on power as it was gingerly on the throttle. I replaced the injector with one of the many old spares I have - and the car was running well, but had started puffing smoke on throttle which it wasn't doing before.

However stuck the inspection camera down the spark hole and cylinder 3 (where injector failed) is scored - the other 3 cylinders are not scored. I'm hypothesising that the cylinder over heated, the forged piston over expanded and it damaged the coating. Oil started escaping (hence smoke) and compression was lost, eventually gave out with a lot of smoke. The leak down test is definitely showing a leak in #3 when piston is BDC, but no drop in pressure when piston is TDC - this leak is not present in #2 when doing the same thing.

Now the engine is cold, it starts and runs, it even sounds fine - just very smokey.

Either way, it's becoming obvious that the 2ZZ is a pretty fragile engine for competition use (this is essentially a brand new engine - new block, pistons, rods, etc) and I think that is me through with the 2ZZ, and perhaps the MR2 - although I do really like the MR2 on track, chassis wise it is excellent and I don't think I'd find something better in that regard without paying a 5 figure number.

I also lost 2nd gear, but that box is at the end of its service life. Have a spare rebuilt box there.

Oh man thats some bad luck and no wonder your at your wits end with it! :(

Where did you get your new injectors from ?  there are a lot of variable quality fakes out there it seems!  its not really the engines fault if that was the case.

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 23, 2021, 10:10and the engine is fucked...... started to lose power then failed on lap 2 of the race. The injector failed during qualifying the previous day.

Drove up from Suffolk (where I'm working on a contract), back to Scotland - collected the car and drove to Croft, then an injector failed and had to meet my sister half way with spares, then Croft back to Ayrshire.... and about to drive back to Suffolk. Been one hell of a weekend.

Not sure what has happened. When I rebuilt this engine I put 4 new OEM injectors and coils on it. One of the new injectors failed on track, I think intermitted at first before packing in completely - qualifying was in torrential rain so it was hard to tell the car was down on power as it was gingerly on the throttle. I replaced the injector with one of the many old spares I have - and the car was running well, but had started puffing smoke on throttle which it wasn't doing before.

However stuck the inspection camera down the spark hole and cylinder 3 (where injector failed) is scored - the other 3 cylinders are not scored. I'm hypothesising that the cylinder over heated, the forged piston over expanded and it damaged the coating. Oil started escaping (hence smoke) and compression was lost, eventually gave out with a lot of smoke. The leak down test is definitely showing a leak in #3 when piston is BDC, but no drop in pressure when piston is TDC - this leak is not present in #2 when doing the same thing.

Now the engine is cold, it starts and runs, it even sounds fine - just very smokey.

Either way, it's becoming obvious that the 2ZZ is a pretty fragile engine for competition use (this is essentially a brand new engine - new block, pistons, rods, etc) and I think that is me through with the 2ZZ, and perhaps the MR2 - although I do really like the MR2 on track, chassis wise it is excellent and I don't think I'd find something better in that regard without paying a 5 figure number.

I also lost 2nd gear, but cannot complain too much as the gearbox is probably at the end of it's service life.

Absolute rotten luck! Surely that's all it can be, as my current 2ZZ is on 154k miles and has seen a lot of track days in the last 4k miles/2 years since I've had it.

I don't blame you for throwing in the towel though, I would have after the 2nd engine went. Could you not go down the K20 route?

Quote from: JB21 on August 23, 2021, 10:40

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 23, 2021, 10:10and the engine is fucked...... started to lose power then failed on lap 2 of the race. The injector failed during qualifying the previous day.

Drove up from Suffolk (where I'm working on a contract), back to Scotland - collected the car and drove to Croft, then an injector failed and had to meet my sister half way with spares, then Croft back to Ayrshire.... and about to drive back to Suffolk. Been one hell of a weekend.

Not sure what has happened. When I rebuilt this engine I put 4 new OEM injectors and coils on it. One of the new injectors failed on track, I think intermitted at first before packing in completely - qualifying was in torrential rain so it was hard to tell the car was down on power as it was gingerly on the throttle. I replaced the injector with one of the many old spares I have - and the car was running well, but had started puffing smoke on throttle which it wasn't doing before.

However stuck the inspection camera down the spark hole and cylinder 3 (where injector failed) is scored - the other 3 cylinders are not scored. I'm hypothesising that the cylinder over heated, the forged piston over expanded and it damaged the coating. Oil started escaping (hence smoke) and compression was lost, eventually gave out with a lot of smoke. The leak down test is definitely showing a leak in #3 when piston is BDC, but no drop in pressure when piston is TDC - this leak is not present in #2 when doing the same thing.

Now the engine is cold, it starts and runs, it even sounds fine - just very smokey.

Either way, it's becoming obvious that the 2ZZ is a pretty fragile engine for competition use (this is essentially a brand new engine - new block, pistons, rods, etc) and I think that is me through with the 2ZZ, and perhaps the MR2 - although I do really like the MR2 on track, chassis wise it is excellent and I don't think I'd find something better in that regard without paying a 5 figure number.

I also lost 2nd gear, but cannot complain too much as the gearbox is probably at the end of it's service life.

Absolute rotten luck! Surely that's all it can be, as my current 2ZZ is on 154k miles and has seen a lot of track days in the last 4k miles/2 years since I've had it.

I don't blame you for throwing in the towel though, I would have after the 2nd engine went. Could you not go down the K20 route?

There is rotten luck and rotten luck. I'm a constant in all of this, so I'm doing something wrong.

The 2ZZ doesn't seem capable of doing 20 minutes + 1 lap races (as well as a safety car lap and a parade lap, so 25-26 minutes of abusive track time without break).

That is 16 events I've entered in my motorsport career (I've missed another dozen or so not entering as car wasn't fixed) with 12 retirements, and of the 4 I have finished 2 of them were issue riddled as well. Out of 16 events I've had 2 relatively trouble free. I have podiumed every time I've finished, which is joyous when it happens - but the last of them was 2 years ago. 2 seasons of did not enter, did not start or did not finish at every round.

I do motorsport completely by myself, I've no mechanical background and have nobody in my circle who is into cars that helps me - I also work away from home 20+ days a month. This is easily the hardest thing I've ever done in life - it's an absolutely gargantuan commitment running a race car and in your spare time - that is when it's trouble free, when you start getting issues it becomes all consuming.

This weekend finally broke me mentally.

Quote from: thetyrant on August 23, 2021, 10:36Oh man thats some bad luck and no wonder your at your wits end with it! :(

Where did you get your new injectors from ? there are a lot of variable quality fakes out there it seems!  its not really the engines fault if that was the case.

Toyota Dealership, along with gasket kit, coils and valve shims.

Went OEM seals and gaskets, plugs, coils, injectors. I did uprate to a 255 fuel pump so wondering if this could cause an injector to fail? It seems to be failing to open.

2 engines I've had a new OEM part fail on (previous rebuild a valve failed about 2mm below the collet groove - had the metallurgist at work look at it, and it seemed to be a stress fracture that had slowly ingressed before a catastrophic failure.)

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 23, 2021, 11:03I do motorsport completely by myself, I've no mechanical background and have nobody in my circle who is into cars that helps me - I also work away from home 20+ days a month. This is easily the hardest thing I've ever done in life - it's an absolutely gargantuan commitment running a race car and in your spare time - that is when it's trouble free, when you start getting issues it becomes all consuming.

This weekend finally broke me mentally.

I guess you love some of our though! Maybe one of the 'standard car' series would scratch the itch without the custom builds? Pistonheads enduroka run has been an interesting read, they do original boxters & 924s if porkers are your thing. Any others people know off the top of their heads?

Certainly rotten luck though!

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 23, 2021, 11:20

Quote from: thetyrant on August 23, 2021, 10:36Oh man thats some bad luck and no wonder your at your wits end with it! :(

Where did you get your new injectors from ? there are a lot of variable quality fakes out there it seems!  its not really the engines fault if that was the case.

Toyota Dealership, along with gasket kit, coils and valve shims.

Went OEM seals and gaskets, plugs, coils, injectors. I did uprate to a 255 fuel pump so wondering if this could cause an injector to fail? It seems to be failing to open.

2 engines I've had a new OEM part fail on (previous rebuild a valve failed about 2mm below the collet groove - had the metallurgist at work look at it, and it seemed to be a stress fracture that had slowly ingressed before a catastrophic failure.)

Thats is odd then, are you sure its the injector and not a wiring issue as i know you had some problems with that before, whats probably more annoying is the lack of fuelling has caused the damage, normally on on a non-turbo applications all that would happen is lack of power from cylinder down, the piston should not of damaged the bore as there is no lubrication from the fuel system to the cylinder walls.  Turbo motor its much more serious due to heat involved.

Would be interesting to get the injectors tested and M1tch on here has a machine im sure he would oblige :)

Quote from: thetyrant on August 23, 2021, 14:17

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 23, 2021, 11:20

Quote from: thetyrant on August 23, 2021, 10:36Oh man thats some bad luck and no wonder your at your wits end with it! :(

Where did you get your new injectors from ? there are a lot of variable quality fakes out there it seems!  its not really the engines fault if that was the case.

Toyota Dealership, along with gasket kit, coils and valve shims.

Went OEM seals and gaskets, plugs, coils, injectors. I did uprate to a 255 fuel pump so wondering if this could cause an injector to fail? It seems to be failing to open.

2 engines I've had a new OEM part fail on (previous rebuild a valve failed about 2mm below the collet groove - had the metallurgist at work look at it, and it seemed to be a stress fracture that had slowly ingressed before a catastrophic failure.)

Thats is odd then, are you sure its the injector and not a wiring issue as i know you had some problems with that before, whats probably more annoying is the lack of fuelling has caused the damage, normally on on a non-turbo applications all that would happen is lack of power from cylinder down, the piston should not of damaged the bore as there is no lubrication from the fuel system to the cylinder walls.  Turbo motor its much more serious due to heat involved.

Would be interesting to get the injectors tested and M1tch on here has a machine im sure he would oblige :)

Not the wiring. Scientific testing in the paddock - Switched the injectors around and the problem followed the injector.

I'm NA, but high compression NA. It's only a theory based on inspection camera - it looks like heat and no mistaking the scoring present, will see better when broken apart, but that's for another day.

Quote from: Jimbo on August 23, 2021, 13:57

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 23, 2021, 11:03I do motorsport completely by myself, I've no mechanical background and have nobody in my circle who is into cars that helps me - I also work away from home 20+ days a month. This is easily the hardest thing I've ever done in life - it's an absolutely gargantuan commitment running a race car and in your spare time - that is when it's trouble free, when you start getting issues it becomes all consuming.

This weekend finally broke me mentally.

I guess you love some of our though! Maybe one of the 'standard car' series would scratch the itch without the custom builds? Pistonheads enduroka run has been an interesting read, they do original boxters & 924s if porkers are your thing. Any others people know off the top of their heads?

Certainly rotten luck though!

I do love it, you accept when you do motorsport there will be bad weekends, tbh the first couple of times I had problems it was.... dare I say.... fun? Paddocks bring out the best in people when theres issues. However that's 1 entry in the last 12 I've finished, and not to mention the half dozen I've had so many problems prior Ive not even bothered entering. I've long past the crossover point between issues being fun to issues being absolutely dejecting. Yesterday was the breaking point for me. It actually feels like when I gave up football (a huge part of my life) - after a bad injury a long lay off... the body got soft, I had another 3yrs of injuries, constantly getting fit only to get another niggle that set me back. The final straw was when I got another bad injury (damaged cartilage) and just accepted it was over. Yesterday was like that.

As for other series, unfortunately it's the travel involved for these series.

Knockhill and Croft are both far enough, Croft is my 2nd closest track and its 4.5hrs away with a trailer (Knockhill is 2hrs).

Most of the tracks in these series are on are 6-10 hrs at towing speed away. A trip to Cadwell is an 18hr round trip, Anglesey 13hrs, Brands/Castle Combe... 18-20hrs.

When you start doing that you need a van and trailer capable of it, Id need to upgrade both, probably camper/hotels - then fuel costs, etc... It probably wouldn't be cheaper really. I'd like to do the odd "away" round when time and money allow, but would rather keep it as a novelty than a commitment.

I've not been there with motorsport but cars, in general, have tested me, my wallet and my love of cars multiple times. No doubt it's a crazy bad run you've had and many would have chucked the towel in long before now.

As an interim measure to get you back enjoying it again, have you thought about slotting a 1ZZ in and dropping down to Class G (130bhp/tonne) in SLS? You should be able to get pretty much bang on the limit with a fairly stock but reliable 1ZZ. Or maybe try the sprint & Hillclimb champs, less prolonged stress on the engine. Try that for a year, get your mojo back before looking at what you do with modsports.

Quote from: Roj on August 23, 2021, 16:37I've not been there with motorsport but cars, in general, have tested me, my wallet and my love of cars multiple times. No doubt it's a crazy bad run you've had and many would have chucked the towel in long before now.

As an interim measure to get you back enjoying it again, have you thought about slotting a 1ZZ in and dropping down to Class G (130bhp/tonne) in SLS? You should be able to get pretty much bang on the limit with a fairly stock but reliable 1ZZ. Or maybe try the sprint & Hillclimb champs, less prolonged stress on the engine. Try that for a year, get your mojo back before looking at what you do with modsports.

Problem with class G..... there is 1 car in it this year compared to 12 or so in F.

but SLS is in danger of folding IMO.

Anyway theres a video of the issues as they happened.

I'm so sorry to hear of your continued bad luck, it's really something else.

May I suggest something?

Perhaps you could buy a Celica/Corolla T-Sport, and tool around in it for a few months? Perhaps do a trackday too?

That way you'll know if the engine is sound, and you can swap them over.

That's what I did and I've never looked back.

Oh man what a run of bad luck. Your stories have only validated my decision to stick with the 1ZZ, so thank you :)

As you say it is a brilliant platform, I hope you figure out a way to stick with it - I honestly don't believe there is another platform out there that offers the same kind of performance for the money.

Sorry for your troubles.

 :'(  :'(  gutted  for you :'(  :'(
that is some  traveling over the weekend not to mention how stressful it all must have bean :'(  :'(

Quote from: puma2 on August 25, 2021, 13:26:'(  :'(  gutted  for you :'(  :'(
that is some  traveling over the weekend not to mention how stressful it all must have bean :'(  :'(

Yeah, 1800 miles in 4 days last weekend. 2x 10hr journeys and 3x 4.5hr journeys. Fair to say I was knackered and a lot of effort for 1 session + 2 laps.

Some pics of the Sunday, and video of the Saturday qualifying (wet but drying). Can see on vid that cars down on power and gearbox is sticky.

You can hear it proper stuttering at high RPM's. Car looks great out on track though.

No rev matching on downshifts?

I can hear it struggling too. You can tell something is amiss.

Properly committed minimum apex speed though - chapeau.

Likewise on the heel/toe downshifts. Smooths out the braking sooo much, and reduces the chance of locking the back axle under hard braking with high RPM downshifts.

Quote from: JB21 on August 27, 2021, 13:48You can hear it proper stuttering at high RPM's. Car looks great out on track though.

No rev matching on downshifts?

I can toe and heel, but not heel and toe if you get me. Unfortunately one of the before mentioned football injuries was a broken right ankle and my ankle doesn't really bend to the 10pm position when strapped in as I cant flex my hip. I've never really found a non clumsy fix, other than turning the brake bias more to front.

Doing it the wrong way around (foot in 2pm position), is fine on road and.... I sort of mastered it on road driving but..... on track - different gravy - I can't get hard braking right. Hard to regulate the pressure on the brake and get it right maybe 1 time in 5.

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 27, 2021, 17:20

Quote from: JB21 on August 27, 2021, 13:48You can hear it proper stuttering at high RPM's. Car looks great out on track though.

No rev matching on downshifts?

I can toe and heel, but not heel and toe if you get me. Unfortunately one of the before mentioned football injuries was a broken right ankle and my ankle doesn't really bend to the 10pm position when strapped in as I cant flex my hip. I've never really found a non clumsy fix, other than turning the brake bias more to front.

Doing it the wrong way around (foot in 2pm position), is fine on road and.... I sort of mastered it on road driving but..... on track - different gravy - I can't get hard braking right. Hard to regulate the pressure on the brake and get it right maybe 1 time in 5.

TBH mate its not the easiest for me with the mr2 pedal set up. I find the brake pedal to low. Piece of piss on the road, but with the pedal mashed on track its a big swing over with the ankle. Every other car I've not had an issue.

I'm gonna try and tighten the throttle cable so I don't need as much as a stamp on the throttle to blip it.

Tbh, I only find being unable to do it a bigger problem in the wet, in the dry the MR layout is stable enough.

As said I tend to run my brake bias 4 or 5 clicks forward from where optimal probably is.

Starting to consider my options.

Has anyone used either of the following.

Future motorsports CSS block
ECUmaster black

Quote from: AJRFulton on August 30, 2021, 15:30Starting to consider my options.

Has anyone used either of the following.

Future motorsports CSS block
ECUmaster black

Plenty have used the ECUMASTER black we even used to get a discount for 1zz and 2zz. I've got the classic and it runs my supercharged V6 fine.

I just want to weigh up my options with costing how to continue with motorsport.

Just now they are

1) Totally strip and rebuild the power train and electrics - doing as much as I can myself but getting professional help to build and install the bits I can't
2) Totally strip and install a K20 or similar
3) Sell/Break and buy/build something else.

All options I think will require about £3-5k of input cash.

Very hard to put a value on the car as well, it's niche, not road legal, etc.

Have you not considered the option I suggested above?

Quote from: Alex Knight on August 31, 2021, 07:57Have you not considered the option I suggested above?

I've already did that with Engine #4 from a known donor car (117k), admittedly not a car I owned, but a car from a trusted source that was written off (rear ended) and I was quick to jump on it when I found that out as the Celica was kept immaculate.

Unfortunately, the engine spun a bearing, although it did complete a track day and a round of motorsport before succumbing at Knockhill. Engine ran well until it happened (I run both Elise parts sump and an accusump (25psi electric switch) with Millers NT+ 5W40, and an oil cooler - I think I've did all practicable to prevent it).

Problem with the 2ZZ is even a newer one is 15yrs old now - older ones are 20yrs+ - it's a big ask to do 20-30 minutes at 100% full beans during a race.

That engine eventually was rebuilt, and breaking it down a lot of waxy oil deposits in interior - it had clearly went long durations at some point in time between oil changes. That is sort of the problem with engines of that age, a lot is luck. It was an OEM valve failing that lead to its ultimate demise.

First bit of time I've had to unload the car and van since the Croft disaster. Flew back home yesterday, and have 2 days to get the engine apart and inspect it before going back to work for a month. Been a hectic schedule lately working away from home - 13hr shifts, 13 on 1 off then 11 on 3 off - so very time limited until the new year. Got xmas and new year off, then off to South Africa for 100 days with work, so only have about 20 days to work on the car until next Summer.

Cars off the trailer and in the garage, hoping to break my personal best and drop the engine, from the first bolt removal from the bumper to engine on the ground, in under 90 minutes - its doable but taking 30 mins off my best.

Get it on the engine stand tomorrow and broken apart.

My 90 minutes went out the window as I've ended up in the pub..... but......

Found a lot of burnt oil deposits in 1 & 2 exhaust, but none in 3 & 4.

I was expecting to find issues in 3 as that is where the injector failed, where the leakdown test is showing problems, and where the inspection cam is showing scoring.

The other 3 cylinders appeared fine on the leakdown and inspection cam. But oil in 2 cylinders... that looks very head gaskety.

IMG_20210911_191219__01.jpg

A bit longer than intended, hangover, pub, etc

But engine out... Will get head off tomorrow before flying back to work

A lot of oil on the pistons

IMG-20210912-WA0012.jpgIMG_20210912_135241__01.jpgIMG_20210912_135247__01.jpgIMG_20210912_135251__01.jpgIMG_20210912_135251__01.jpgIMG_20210912_135313__01.jpg

Been thinking a lot about what's went wrong today.

The leak down test was fine (both TDC and BDC) on 1,2 and 4, but only good TDC on 3. Tested both hot and cold with same result.

Scoring on all 4 cylinders at 3 o clock and 9 o clock positions - near identical on all cylinders. Scoring can easily be felt by finger, never mind nail. Running Mahle 82mm pistons, which should be drop in for OEM block. Rings required no filing, fitted perfectly out of the box (new pistons, new rings, new block)

All cylinders with significant quantities of fresh oil them

Inlet manifold with significant quantity of fresh oil in it

Exhaust manifold 1 and 2 with greasy burnt oil deposits. 3 and 4 are dry.

Valve seals appear fine (no oil on valves)

Head gasket appears fine

Ideas?

Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

@AJRFulton said: Scoring on all 4 cylinders at 3 o clock and 9 o clock positions - near identical on all cylinders.

Do the cylinder bore score marks relate to the piston ring gaps, maybe there is a manufacturing burr on the end of the rings?

Quote from: Joesson on September 14, 2021, 09:47@AJRFulton said: Scoring on all 4 cylinders at 3 o clock and 9 o clock positions - near identical on all cylinders.

Do the cylinder bore score marks relate to the piston ring gaps, maybe there is a manufacturing burr on the end of the rings?

They won't. The ring gaps were set at about 120^ to each other, so can't be at 180^ intervals

Quote from: JB21 on September 14, 2021, 07:44Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

Engine was rolling road run in - around 200 miles.

Accusump always gives me 20psi of oil pressure as soon as ignition is on.

What oil pressure are you seeing while on track? Did all the engines you have got thru used the same sump? 

Quote from: AJRFulton on September 14, 2021, 11:12

Quote from: JB21 on September 14, 2021, 07:44Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

Engine was rolling road run in - around 200 miles.

Accusump always gives me 20psi of oil pressure as soon as ignition is on.

Sounds like you may not have worn down the high spots of the rings and bore walls with the initial bed in procedure, if there was no burrs that needed removing which really does sound like a plausible explanation given the identical scoring.

Did you fill/prime the oil filter before fitting? Once the engine is filled with oil, its a good idea to remove the spark plugs and fuel rail plug, then cycle a few 5s cranks off the starter motor, for pressure but also so oil is circulated around the dry engine before firing. Not saying this has caused the issue but its good practice.

What oil grade was used? You'd need a thin oil, better with the OE spec 5w 30 as all the tolerances will be factory spec and nice and tight.

What initial bed in procedure did you run the engine at before the rolling road? Did you run a high idle to remove slack from the valve train? Did you keep a close eye on temperatures on the initial run in period? Overheating can ruin a new engine as tolerances are already tight, and extra heat even marginally can tighten these tolerances further leading to increased wear.

Also what was the dyno bed-in procedure. Did they smoothly vary the RPM's, building up slowly to higher RPM's, but with periods of coasting in-between for cooling, then short WOT runs in high gears to build max pressure to seat the rings?

Quote from: JB21 on September 14, 2021, 12:57

Quote from: AJRFulton on September 14, 2021, 11:12

Quote from: JB21 on September 14, 2021, 07:44Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

Engine was rolling road run in - around 200 miles.

Accusump always gives me 20psi of oil pressure as soon as ignition is on.

Sounds like you may not have worn down the high spots of the rings and bore walls with the initial bed in procedure, if there was no burrs that needed removing which really does sound like a plausible explanation given the identical scoring.

Did you fill/prime the oil filter before fitting? Once the engine is filled with oil, its a good idea to remove the spark plugs and fuel rail plug, then cycle a few 5s cranks off the starter motor, for pressure but also so oil is circulated around the dry engine before firing. Not saying this has caused the issue but its good practice.

What oil grade was used? You'd need a thin oil, better with the OE spec 5w 30 as all the tolerances will be factory spec and nice and tight.

What initial bed in procedure did you run the engine at before the rolling road? Did you run a high idle to remove slack from the valve train? Did you keep a close eye on temperatures on the initial run in period? Overheating can ruin a new engine as tolerances are already tight, and extra heat even marginally can tighten these tolerances further leading to increased wear.

Also what was the dyno bed-in procedure. Did they smoothly vary the RPM's, building up slowly to higher RPM's, but with periods of coasting in-between for cooling, then short WOT runs in high gears to build max pressure to seat the rings?

Oil filter was primed, oil pump was primed. Engine was given a few short bursts with crank sensor off until pressure was seen. Accusump was then discharged prior to first firing - pre-oiling the engine with 20psi of oil pressure. Lack of oil isn't something I'm concerned about.

Run in with Miller's Running In Mineral oil - 5w30.

The engine had very little running prior to run in. It was fired up and allowed to idle for a few minutes then checked for leaks. Then car was loaded onto a trailer and taken to Dyno. Drove onto trailer, and drove off trailer and reversed into Dyno.

I didn't watch all of the Dyno run in as it took 3hrs - I had a MS Teams job interview during the process, so missed an hour of it.

Oil and water temperature would be monitored on the software and gauges - I know and trust the tuner (a jap specialist). The run in procedure sounds more or less what you are saying, even checking valve clearances prior to running.

After run in, oil was changed to NT+ 5W40 and car tuned on dyno. The car then did 20 laps at a track day and had another oil change - so system flushed.

The running in oil had a little metallic shimmer, and was filtered through a gauze on disposal for debris check. The 2nd oil change had no shimmer or debris. The oil removed when engine was removed had no shimmer or debris. The sumps been off - no debris there.

A suggestion.  Pull the pistons and measure the skirts.  Most forged pistons tend to grow a bit in size as they warm up, and too much load before they have stabilized can damage the skirts, or cause scoring. 

Years ago, I learned that lesson very expensively when a tuner did a hard dyno pull on a highly modified motorcycle race engine after the pistons had cooled between runs.  The next time the engine was run hard one piston seized at high RPM, with massive damage.  A post mortem and inspection by another top engine builder revealed light scoring in the cylinders still intact, and the piston skirts had partially collapsed.  The resulting excessive clearance eventually led to the failure

Quote from: Beachbum957 on September 14, 2021, 21:26A suggestion.  Pull the pistons and measure the skirts.  Most forged pistons tend to grow a bit in size as they warm up, and too much load before they have stabilized can damage the skirts, or cause scoring. 

Years ago, I learned that lesson very expensively when a tuner did a hard dyno pull on a highly modified motorcycle race engine after the pistons had cooled between runs.  The next time the engine was run hard one piston seized at high RPM, with massive damage.  A post mortem and inspection by another top engine builder revealed light scoring in the cylinders still intact, and the piston skirts had partially collapsed.  The resulting excessive clearance eventually led to the failure

The blocks fucked anyway, so will be fully dismantled.

I don't really have a window to do this for 8wks though as I'm working away from home. The 2 times I'm home before mid November - I've things on 😔

Highlights of one of the series I do.

Not in it much as car broke early doors, and well... in practice I sort of was off track a lot!

Although apparantly I'm the international man of mystery.

Decided what I am going to do.

I'm going to get a company called Future Motorsports to put in the Cylinder Support System and Sleeve a block - then (given my lack of time) get the short block professionally rebuilt using new or refurbished parts.

I've had the head tested and everything seems absolutely fine with it - although wary about skimming it for a 3rd time. However I do have a spare head that has never been skimmed. May be an idea to get that remachined and transfer the bits from the old head over.

Given it has always been near new OEM parts that have failed - I'm ditching OEM injectors, seals and coils, keeping only OEM Timing gear, Solenoids and VVT Sprocket on the head.

Still undecided on what options to go for.

A spare head has been dropped off at a motorsport engineer for reconditioning and port polishing. They will reseat and lap the valves in as well - so saves a fair bit of work on reassembly.

Also dropped off one of my cranks, along with the flywheel, crank sprocket/pulley, and clutch plate for crank grinding and balancing.

After the crank is back - I'm sending the parts of the bottom end off to future motorsport to get a bottom end (sleeved block with CSS) built.

I did pick up a 30L ultrasonic cleaner from a vendor called Vevor - bought a few things off them, they are Czech based but importing Chinese stuff (but appears decent quality Chinese stuff from the 3 items I've bought.... btw.... I'd highly recommend the 12v fridge/freezer cool box they sell - it's cheap and actually works! - Plasma cutter is functional as well, and absolutely adequate at its price point).

However the Ultrasonic bath is a wonderful bit of kit! Everything is looking like new. Here are the valves, journals, rockers, springs and retainers from an old 2ZZ I might put back together as a spare. Why I didn't do a before, who knows, but they were brown.

On another note, it's only October, but this rebuild and next season is already in disarray.

Currently working away from home (in Suffolk) until Xmas - My work has offered me a contract in South Africa to run a project for the majority of 2022. Cannot say I want to go, but with wanting to build a house in the next 2-3 years - the money on offer - particularly in the post IR35 world - was hard to say no to.

Head out in January, will be home June/July, before heading back out in August.

A year of 'pain' for long term gain - with the rollercoaster of North Sea life never seeming to stabilise, I'd go where the money is :)

Quote from: Roj on October 11, 2021, 21:04A year of 'pain' for long term gain - with the rollercoaster of North Sea life never seeming to stabilise, I'd go where the money is :)

I don't generally work offshore, although I did a stint in Aberdeen this year doing desk based work that involved a fair bit of offshore work (I'm a nuclear/environmental engineer - I was involved in projects dealing with/removing problematic wastes, and cleaning out systems contaminated with hazardous substances). I left that role as I couldn't afford to be based full time in Aberdeen.

Tbh from talking to people I was amazed how poor the wages were in salaried roles for oil and gas - particularly onshore based, but offshore often type roles.

Don't get me wrong, pay is pretty good in day rate contract type roles. Of course there are still some job titles that pay mega bucks.

Quote from: AJRFulton on October 12, 2021, 06:38

Quote from: Roj on October 11, 2021, 21:04A year of 'pain' for long term gain - with the rollercoaster of North Sea life never seeming to stabilise, I'd go where the money is :)

I don't generally work offshore, although I did a stint in Aberdeen this year doing desk based work that involved a fair bit of offshore work (I'm a nuclear/environmental engineer - I was involved in projects dealing with/removing problematic wastes, and cleaning out systems contaminated with hazardous substances). I left that role as I couldn't afford to be based full time in Aberdeen.

Tbh from talking to people I was amazed how poor the wages were in salaried roles for oil and gas - particularly onshore based, but offshore often type roles.

Don't get me wrong, pay is pretty good in day rate contract type roles. Of course there are still some job titles that pay mega bucks.

Yeah, salaried roles are not well paid compared to the day-raters, at least until you get up to management level. Even then a contractor will outstrip a managing director in some smaller firms. Mental.

An enforced isolation after my back to back tested positive has given me 5 days at home. Longest time at home I've had since July, so actually got a bit organised.

Been working away from home and mental shift patterns (13hr days, 11 on 3 off).... So lack of time is a big problem.

Arrived home to find a big package

IMG_26102021_233933_(720_x_1280_pixel).jpg

And..... A substantial tidy up ensued.

Built up the box, added some lighting and tidied the garage

IMG_26102021_233657_(1280_x_960_pixel).jpg

IMG_26102021_233626_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

IMG_26102021_233818_(1280_x_960_pixel).jpg


Oddly satisfying cutting the foam inserts to put tools in

IMG_26102021_233552_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

Also received another cordless windy gun to add to the collection. (Also have a Ryobi 1/2" one to go with the 2x 3/8"). Liking the little Milwaukee so far, nice low torque - perfect for 10 and 12mm stuff - the Mac and Ryobi are just a bit too powerful for smaller stuff.

IMG_26102021_233729_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

I definitely possess too many 2ZZ bits

IMG_26102021_234030_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg
IMG_26102021_233531_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

But also got round to refreshing my rear brakes. Will do the front ones tomorrow.

IMG_26102021_233456_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

I forget I have came a very long way in a short period of time. I knew nobody that was into cars other than me when I started this venture, so with doing my first track day in 2019, to starting racing in 2019... And not even owning a proper ratchet set when I started out. Been a naive and steep learning curve doing it mostly by myself.

I'm fortunate my parents own a small holding (been in the family since the 1800s), so an old stable is now my workshop.

Sadly only got a few more days at home before the end of the year, then being sent to Africa for a job and not home again until Spring. A lack of time is the biggest hinderence.

IMG_28102021_203854_(1116_x_1280_pixel).jpg

Something slightly depressing breaking apart the engine..... And it is this clean.

The organsiation of them tools 😍

Reconned head delivered.

Fully reseated, skimmed, decoked, valves lapped, ported (very mildly), and polished.

Discovered a (new) bent valve as well. Would never have noticed this by naked eye.

Quote from: AJRFulton on October 27, 2021, 00:25An enforced isolation after my back to back tested positive has given me 5 days at home. Longest time at home I've had since July, so actually got a bit organised.

Been working away from home and mental shift patterns (13hr days, 11 on 3 off).... So lack of time is a big problem.

Arrived home to find a big package

IMG_26102021_233933_(720_x_1280_pixel).jpg

And..... A substantial tidy up ensued.

Built up the box, added some lighting and tidied the garage

IMG_26102021_233657_(1280_x_960_pixel).jpg

IMG_26102021_233626_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

IMG_26102021_233818_(1280_x_960_pixel).jpg


Oddly satisfying cutting the foam inserts to put tools in

IMG_26102021_233552_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

Also received another cordless windy gun to add to the collection. (Also have a Ryobi 1/2" one to go with the 2x 3/8"). Liking the little Milwaukee so far, nice low torque - perfect for 10 and 12mm stuff - the Mac and Ryobi are just a bit too powerful for smaller stuff.

IMG_26102021_233729_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

I definitely possess too many 2ZZ bits

IMG_26102021_234030_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg
IMG_26102021_233531_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

But also got round to refreshing my rear brakes. Will do the front ones tomorrow.

IMG_26102021_233456_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

I forget I have came a very long way in a short period of time. I knew nobody that was into cars other than me when I started this venture, so with doing my first track day in 2019, to starting racing in 2019... And not even owning a proper ratchet set when I started out. Been a naive and steep learning curve doing it mostly by myself.

I'm fortunate my parents own a small holding (been in the family since the 1800s), so an old stable is now my workshop.

Sadly only got a few more days at home before the end of the year, then being sent to Africa for a job and not home again until Spring. A lack of time is the biggest hinderence.

Your workshop looks great, good effort doing the foam inserts - I spent hours of my life cutting them out and making shadow boards as an apprentice when we got a load of new tool kits in, something I'd happily avoid doing again. I'm wondering if it's worth buying one of the cheap faux-German(Chinesium) chests that come pre-packed with tools and cutouts and just replace the tools with my own.

Quote from: Roj on October 31, 2021, 10:24

Quote from: AJRFulton on October 27, 2021, 00:25An enforced isolation after my back to back tested positive has given me 5 days at home. Longest time at home I've had since July, so actually got a bit organised.

Been working away from home and mental shift patterns (13hr days, 11 on 3 off).... So lack of time is a big problem.

Arrived home to find a big package

IMG_26102021_233933_(720_x_1280_pixel).jpg

And..... A substantial tidy up ensued.

Built up the box, added some lighting and tidied the garage

IMG_26102021_233657_(1280_x_960_pixel).jpg

IMG_26102021_233626_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

IMG_26102021_233818_(1280_x_960_pixel).jpg


Oddly satisfying cutting the foam inserts to put tools in

IMG_26102021_233552_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

Also received another cordless windy gun to add to the collection. (Also have a Ryobi 1/2" one to go with the 2x 3/8"). Liking the little Milwaukee so far, nice low torque - perfect for 10 and 12mm stuff - the Mac and Ryobi are just a bit too powerful for smaller stuff.

IMG_26102021_233729_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

I definitely possess too many 2ZZ bits

IMG_26102021_234030_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg
IMG_26102021_233531_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

But also got round to refreshing my rear brakes. Will do the front ones tomorrow.

IMG_26102021_233456_(960_x_1280_pixel).jpg

I forget I have came a very long way in a short period of time. I knew nobody that was into cars other than me when I started this venture, so with doing my first track day in 2019, to starting racing in 2019... And not even owning a proper ratchet set when I started out. Been a naive and steep learning curve doing it mostly by myself.

I'm fortunate my parents own a small holding (been in the family since the 1800s), so an old stable is now my workshop.

Sadly only got a few more days at home before the end of the year, then being sent to Africa for a job and not home again until Spring. A lack of time is the biggest hinderence.

Your workshop looks great, good effort doing the foam inserts - I spent hours of my life cutting them out and making shadow boards as an apprentice when we got a load of new tool kits in, something I'd happily avoid doing again. I'm wondering if it's worth buying one of the cheap faux-German(Chinesium) chests that come pre-packed with tools and cutouts and just replace the tools with my own.

Tbh, I used foam by a company called Big Dug - they do a lot of industrial shelving and storage. It was pretty easy to do. The whole socket tray took just over an hour. Spanners and sockets far less.

Thing I've learned from doing a couple of camper conversions and cutting the carpet for lining them, buy a hobby scalpel and lots and lots of blades (which cost penny's each, I think I got 50 for £4). Exact same with foam cutting, you maybe only get a metre or so of cutting before the best of the blades gone, just ping it off and put the next one on.

That's a USPro Toolbox, it's heavy duty quality, and has soft close doors, but whilst it feels well put together.... it's not a Snap On - but the equivelant from a top brand would be costing 5x more, and to me all you get advantage is a slightly nicer feeling runner and closing mechanism, as I don't see that one falling apart - it's just more basic runners.

So, I've had a long time off of all things MR2.

I was supposed to be in South Africa on a job, but Omicron came along and the 5 month project got cut down to 8wks and the outlying work postponed to 2024, which was a bit of a financial blow. However I now have time again having taken a job in Ayrshire, so have a few hours most nights.

Anyway where are we at.

Reground and balanced my crank/flywheel and posted it off to Future with a few other bits.

Awaiting my short block returning from Future motorsports.

Had my head reconditioned, reseated and port polished.

Gearbox was dropped off at a specialist today for a overhaul - 2-3 synchro has went on it, but may as well get it given a good check.

Got a loom and fresh linkage from J-Spec. With so many engine changes and a welded subframe it's hard to get the engine out without snagging something.

Rebuilt the KSport 6 pots and got carbotech pads all around.

Going to start rebuilding the head tonight. The OEM stem seals have proven difficult to put on - to the point I'm not sure they are the correct part however I damaged a couple trying - another set arrived today.

the WORKSHOP!!!!...am green with envy!

Hopefully a solution to all my 2zz woes


(https://i.ibb.co/51vr6Td/IMG-20220228-215945.jpg) (https://ibb.co/51vr6Td)

And all the way from the USA

(https://i.ibb.co/xqhWyQ1/IMG-20220301-194902.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xqhWyQ1)

Quote from: AJRFulton on March  1, 2022, 19:51And all the way from the USA

(https://i.ibb.co/xqhWyQ1/IMG-20220301-194902.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xqhWyQ1)

MWR built block? Tell me more......😁

Quote from: Gaz2405 on March  1, 2022, 20:54MWR built block? Tell me more......😁

Yeah MWR. Nothing exciting build wise. Carillo H beams and Mahle pistons. Built for racing and will be tuned to 175-176 bhp (power to weight class reasons - but tuner does his jiggery pokery with fueling at the top end to kill peak power and aid cooling)

Opted out the sleeved route at the last minute.

(https://i.ibb.co/WshtyRp/IMG-20220313-184916-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WshtyRp)

Most of the fiddly bits over.

Leak down test gave strong results.

Need to sort valve clearances, but managed to lose my reference shims (i.e. the shims I could still see a number on). 5 out of 8 are fine, but it's always the inlet side!

Wondering why you decided against the sleeved route?

Quote from: Alex Knight on March 14, 2022, 08:17Wondering why you decided against the sleeved route?

Put simply - costs. I lost my South African contract (before it even started) when Omicron came about - the UK contracting sector has been hard going these last 2yrs with IR35 and Covid, so back in a full time job with a bit less disposable income - so had to rethink as the budget for the season has diminished. However the flip side is I am at home permanently, so actually have time to do work.

That short block came on offer and it was working out about £1000 cheaper than the future motorsport route - and I still have parts to build another engine. I'm not going for power, so do I need sleeves? Due to class restrictions the car will only tuned to 179bhp or so (although that detuning and jiggery pokery with the fueling/timing at the top end helps with cooling for 30 minute competition sessions).

New OEM block, professionally built by a specialist who has all the tools to built it right. With the head work - this should be as good an engine as possible.

Just seems a total waste to de-tune a 2zz. Set of cams and tune in a 1zz would see similar results and a fraction of the cost of what you've spent.

Quote from: JB21 on March 14, 2022, 12:56Just seems a total waste to de-tune a 2zz. Set of cams and tune in a 1zz would see similar results and a fraction of the cost of what you've spent.

I doubt a set of cams will get 180 out of a 1zz.

Quote from: JB21 on March 14, 2022, 12:56Just seems a total waste to de-tune a 2zz. Set of cams and tune in a 1zz would see similar results and a fraction of the cost of what you've spent.

The power band would look very different between the engines. The 1zz might be able to peak there.

My power curve is usually flattish at the top end, keeping me within my 170bhp/t limit but I stay at that 160-180bhp a good bit of the rev range. That engine will behave like a 200bhp engine at 5.5krpm but kill power at the very top. How long am I at >175bhp +7600rpm a lap - maybe 3-4 seconds? It actually makes little difference to lap time or VMax running between the detuned map, and full power (which will be 195-200bhp). The gains are all lower down torque.

Plus the advantage of effectively using petrol to cool the cylinder, keeps temps 6-7*c lower on 20-30 minute sessions.

I agree it's a lot of effort, but everyone else is doing it, so by not doing it you're leaving a lot of time at the door.

It gives me options too in terms of series. I won't always run in a series where my class is 170bhp/t.

Was a little unsure of the connector on the leak down tester I have, the results seemed a little too good for a cold engine that wasn't run in <5%. The coupler was gubbed and wasn't letting air past - good old eBay cheap Chinese quality bits.

Changed the coupler for the one from a compression tester and now have real concern.

Getting 80-85% leakage across all cylinders, and can physically hear air passing by the pistons making farty noises with the assembly lube lining them. I can feel the air coming out of the dip stick hole.

Even just putting a spark plug in and gently cranking the engine by hand - I can hear significant amounts of air pass the cylinders and can turn the engine with little resistance from the compressed air. Even just holding it with a guage in place - no cylinder is holding compression - and I don't mean not holding compression like a pin prick in a bike tube, I mean not holding compression like a pencil sized hole in a bike tube.


When I built my last engine, and built the short block myself - cold engine with forged pistons was giving about 20% leakage, and could only hear a faint hiss and hand cranking gave significant resistance. Nothing was escaping fast.

I appreciate the engine isn't run in but I wouldn't be expecting it that bad.

The plus side is..... It's identical across all cylinders.

Not being particularly experienced, I've no idea if this is normal - so any advice.

Hope not, as the return shipping costs and (wasted) head gasket will be the best part of £500.

General rule of thumb is more than 20% is a bad seal, 80-85% engine is toast. With the spark plugs removed I'd get an impact gun set to low torque on the crank bolt and give the crank a good few turns in 5-10s intervals, and retest. If the same results contact MKR and request they pay the return shipping.

Yeah I'm deeply concerned. I'm not taking the result in terms of numbers too seriously - eBay kit, cold engine, new block, not run in, etc, etc. That test kit was only ever bought for indication. However I have turned the engine over with the gun a few dozen times. It's making no difference.

However on face value, I can actually feel air blowing out of the dipstick when testing on all 4 cylinders, as well as physically hear it coming past. That doesn't seem right, so don't really want to continue the build.

It's a waste of 10-12hrs of time and a new comotec head gasket right enough - not to mention with my season starting in 7 weeks I'm not making it.

Quote from: AJRFulton on March 16, 2022, 07:47Yeah I'm deeply concerned. I'm not taking the result in terms of numbers too seriously - eBay kit, cold engine, new block, not run in, etc, etc. That test kit was only ever bought for indication. However I have turned the engine over with the gun a few dozen times. It's making no difference.

However on face value, I can actually feel air blowing out of the dipstick when testing on all 4 cylinders, as well as physically hear it coming past. That doesn't seem right, so don't really want to continue the build.

It's a waste of 10-12hrs of time and a new comotec head gasket right enough - not to mention with my season starting in 7 weeks I'm not making it.

Absolute nightmare mate. If any good Ive got 2 spare engines here. Both with bottom end rod knock but both have working heads, one is a 70k mile unit without cams, caps, chain etc the other is a fully sealed 155k engine with the 70k mile cams, caps, chain etc fitted. I was still able to drive both engines before removal so neither has seized.

Quote from: JB21 on March 16, 2022, 08:58Absolute nightmare mate. If any good Ive got 2 spare engines here. Both with bottom end rod knock but both have working heads, one is a 70k mile unit without cams, caps, chain etc the other is a fully sealed 155k engine with the 70k mile cams, caps, chain etc fitted. I was still able to drive both engines before removal so neither has seized.

That is an option Phil. Thank you.

I've a balanced and re-ground crank spare (from when I planned going sleeved), as well as +.25 bearings, so if the engine seals it would just be a case of replace the Conrods if it has heat damage, and switch the crank over. Switch heads as well.

Yeah going that route I'd be losing some midrange torque and response with lower compression and heavier rods+pistons, but main gains are from the built head which I have anyway.

If the offer stands I'll let you know in the next day or two - as obviously need to sort this.

Becoming a bit tired of all this.

Original 2ZZ - failed

Tried a replacement 2ZZ - failed

Tried another replacement 2ZZ - failed

Rebuilt that, put new OEM valves + springs + retainers in - OEM valve failed after 200-300 miles

Went for a total rebuild last year - new OEM injector failed, scored the block - failed (although partly my fault as kept going instead of retiring car)

So.... Went for a professionally built block - failed before it was even built.

The last 30mths have been hard going. Ratio of effort to fun isn't good. Since the first engine failed I've did what, 120-150 laps?

Definitely been character building.

Can I make a suggestion?

But a Celica or Corolla T-Sport.

Drive it around for a few weeks/months. Gauge the condition of the engine.

If it's good (choose your car carefully), then whip out the engine and plop it in.

If you continue to blow engines, then to me that's indicative of something in the setup in the MR2, rather than something inherently wrong with the engine.

That's what I did in 2013. Zero issues in 9 years and 45,000 miles.

It won't help the short term, but it just might help the long term 👍🏼

On an unrelated note ..... Mrs Fulton got my helmet painted. Which sounds like a euphemism.

(https://i.ibb.co/fSnb0rd/IMG-20220320-WA0006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fSnb0rd)

Even includes a deliberate mistake.

As for engine.... happy with resolution that is playing out - will give  :)  or  :'(  based on how it pans out but it will mean a bit of not much happening.

(https://i.ibb.co/QMxj1YL/IMG-20220331-221918.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QMxj1YL)

I'll simply put that image here, and give a report in about a week.

I need to before installing

- Rip out old loom, put in new loom
- Replace gear linkage
- Remove old extinguisher system and install the new extinguisher system to comply with 2022 regs

Quote from: AJRFulton on April  1, 2022, 07:25I'll simply put that image here, and give a report in about a week.

Whishing you luck.
You sure need a positive note after all the bad ones.

Other than a sympathetic MOT tester.

Any easy solution to making an Hydraulic Fly Off Handbrake road legal? I installed it as it's fantastic for race starts..... But obviously cannot ratchet. Other issue is my rear brakes are AP Racing brakes off the front of an Elise, so no mechanism for a mechanical handbrake.

Would like to MOT car purely for for convenience. Saves trailering it on short trips from where I store it, to where I work on it (about 1.5 miles apart). Will never do anymore than 50-100 miles or so a year in it.

Haven't seen the car since November, but brought it back to the workshop. Cats seemed to like walking over it whilst it's been stored... It's filthy.

Decided to remove the roof and cut away a big chunk of near side dashboard purely for access. Roof will go back on, and removing the chunk of dash saved a couple of kg.

Replaced the gear linkage, old one had been snagged at last engine change and wasn't moving freely.

Had to install a new fire extinguisher system to comply with the new regulations. So ripped the old one out (hence decided to take a saw to the dash)

Got an absolute mess of wires to sort out after taking a saw to the dash (were well hidden) - however can now access the foot well properly.

Also changing the loom, but need to sort aforementioned wires.

As the fuel tank is out (to change linkage) I'll see what can be done to solve the low fuel starvation issues. Typically been running the car 10-15kg heavy with fuel to prevent it. Should be fairly easy to foam baffle it

Got the gearbox refurbed. 2-3 synchro had taken a bashing and selector was also a bit sticky.

Would like to get the car a bit lighter, think it was about 980kg at last weigh in.

Top it all off, I don't know what's been nesting in the car over winter, but my seat is torn to shreds and stinks of urine.... So that now needs replaced.


I would like the car MOT'd for convenience, but the handbrake is going to be an issue I feel.


(https://i.ibb.co/DwsKHsW/IMG-20220405-204051.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DwsKHsW)



(https://i.ibb.co/17Bp99n/IMG-20220405-203705.jpg) (https://ibb.co/17Bp99n)


(https://i.ibb.co/2hrKTGS/IMG-20220405-203626.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2hrKTGS)

Well that is the engine in. Could have done with extra hands but got there in my fastest time yet.

IMG_20220418_134232__01__01__01.jpg


I thankfully went through a checklist before reinstalling, and realised the rear seal was missing - so box, clutch and flywheel off. Again not easy doing it solo.

(https://i.ibb.co/DpJdWkp/IMG-20220417-WA0027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DpJdWkp)

Have sorted the  inside as well. New 2022 reg extinguisher system installed, and sorted a lot of the wiring out too.


(https://i.ibb.co/ZYm4wMJ/IMG-20220417-132421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZYm4wMJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/Y76FP3R/IMG-20220417-132514.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y76FP3R)

Needs a good scrub inside, but I will sort that. New seat will be here next week.

Anyway today's task is put in the new loom. J-Spec being less than 5 mins away has been a find (how did I not know about these guys!), and great to get all the stupid wee bits (ie a throttle body cable holder bolt) that previously waited days for.

On another note..... The long IKEA trolley..... Definitely going to spend an hour welding this into a 2ZZ/1ZZ jig! Even with some wood this made the install so easy. Literally just sat the car on the engine and it went straight in.

Still would like to get the car below 950kg, but not really sure how to remove another 20-30kg.

Anyway back to it.

Engines in, turning over really nicely, and good oil pressure (30psi under starter motor alone).

However.... Getting fuel pressure, but no fuel is coming through the injectors and no spark either on any cylinder.

Built a new loom from a 1zz loom (courtesy of JSpec) - followed the guide in here. That wasn't working so.... Repaired and put the old loom back in too, but still nothing - same issue.

Any ideas? Feel I've spent about 10 days chasing my tail.

Crank sensor?

Quote from: mr2garageswindon on May  5, 2022, 13:58Crank sensor?

yeah switched that over too

You've obviously checked the fuses but sounds like a AM2,IG2 or EFI fuse.

Quote from: JB21 on May  5, 2022, 15:19You've obviously checked the fuses but sounds like a AM2,IG2 or EFI fuse.

Yeah, no blown fuses.

Even stuck an inspection camera in a crank sensor hole to be double sure I installed the cog!

I'm now at the stage of thinking a broken ECU as checked everything

I've never seen an ECU fail, but it's not impossible, and easy to check.

Occsms razor says it's something you have/haven't done though.

I've had a Toyota ECU fail when cable jump starting, heard it pop and got the electric burning smell.

Earth wires all good? Easy test, put a jump lead from engine to body or battery negative and give it a go.
Its gotta be something simple.

Does the ECU communicate with an ODB reader?

Quote from: Mark A on May  6, 2022, 11:46Does the ECU communicate with an ODB reader?

Na it's an Apexi

Quote from: mr2garageswindon on May  6, 2022, 10:37Earth wires all good? Easy test, put a jump lead from engine to body or battery negative and give it a go.
Its gotta be something simple.

Engines well earthed.

Had an earth wire fail in the past causing a retirement.

Now have 1 main earth wire onto each part. Rocker, head, block, crank case, sump and gearbox, as well as the 2x smaller ones that come off of the loom.

Wondering what this would be worth as I'm getting sick of it and the constant 2ZZGE track issues and a total lack of time to actually do anything with the car. It's a source of disappointment and frustration.

Zero Miles Engine - New block supplied by MWR (Reground OEM crank +0.25mm, OEM bearings, Mahle Pistons and Carillo H beam Rods). Top end - Piper Stage 2 Cams, MWR Flat Valves, Titanium Retainers, Springs, etc.

6 speed box - Zero miles since recondition

Apexi FC ECU

Oil cooler with Accusump and Elise Part sump

BC Racing ER Coilovers - < 50 track miles, Zero road miles

Hardline Control Arms <50 miles

Fully poly bushed

Whiteline ARB

K-Sport 6 pot front brakes, AP Racing 2 Pot rear brakes with new K-Sport rotors and unused carbotech pads

10 Point SW Motorsport welded cage, with hard top

Full under body bracing, and uprated cross bracing

Fully stripped inside (960 kg) with unused Sparco Circuit seat, unused TRS harnesses and 2022 OMP Fire extinguisher system

3x sets of Rota Grid alloys (track used condition, not perfect but not awful either paint wise - but no buckles or dents) - 1 set with unused AR1 tyres, 1 set with part worn AR1 tyres, 1 set with (1 wet session) Toyo R1R tyres.

1x set of OEM alloys (shabby condition) - with near new Rainsport 5's

ABS deleted

Bodywork is track (bumpers held on with tiewraps, etc.). However bar chips and scrapes... everything is straight enough. No rust of any note.

In my ownership the car has podiumed in every event it has ever finished

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 15, 2022, 13:26Wondering what this would be worth as I'm getting sick of it and the constant 2ZZGE track issues and a total lack of time to actually do anything with the car. It's a source of disappointment and frustration.

Zero Miles Engine - New block supplied by MWR (Reground OEM crank +0.25mm, OEM bearings, Mahle Pistons and Carillo H beam Rods). Top end - Piper Stage 2 Cams, MWR Flat Valves, Titanium Retainers, Springs, etc.

6 speed box - Zero miles since recondition

Apexi FC ECU

Oil cooler with Accusump and Elise Part sump

BC Racing ER Coilovers - < 50 track miles, Zero road miles

Hardline Control Arms <50 miles

Fully poly bushed

Whiteline ARB

K-Sport 6 pot front brakes, AP Racing 2 Pot rear brakes with new K-Sport rotors and unused carbotech pads

10 Point SW Motorsport welded cage, with hard top

Full under body bracing, and uprated cross bracing

Fully stripped inside (960 kg) with unused Sparco Circuit seat, unused TRS harnesses and 2022 OMP Fire extinguisher system

3x sets of Rota Grid alloys (track used condition, not perfect but not awful either paint wise - but no buckles or dents) - 1 set with unused AR1 tyres, 1 set with part worn AR1 tyres, 1 set with (1 wet session) Toyo R1R tyres.

1x set of OEM alloys (shabby condition) - with near new Rainsport 5's

ABS deleted

Bodywork is track (bumpers held on with tiewraps, etc.). However bar chips and scrapes... everything is straight enough. No rust of any note.

In my ownership the car has podiumed in every event it has ever finished

To the right buyer £8-10K, ZZW30 prices have gone up recently and decent spec 2zz track/race cars are rare. I'd value mine at around £7k. You maybe better parting it out, you'd defo get more I reckon. I'd be interested in quite a few items on your list.

Judging from your very final paragraph, isn't that reason to hold onto it. :o  I feel your pain though. :'(
But I'm in no position to talk!

Quote from: Chilli Girl on June 15, 2022, 13:53Judging from your very final paragraph, isn't that reason to hold onto it. :o  I feel your pain though. :'(
But I'm in no position to talk!

I'm in the position where I want to race, but can't afford to race, thus in order to afford to race I then give myself no time to race. Been struggling trying to do it completely by myself, not actually sure I even enjoy it, but don't want to give up. Fed up being in the garage, making things out of welding wire and what so I can hold things, or pull things whilst being in another location around the car. I've had a few near misses with things falling, worst being a gearbox - trying to hold and bolt at the same time - also had the car run away whilst trying to tow it from the driveway to the out building (where I have my workshop) by myself.

Feels like a vicious circle - spent a lot on this car getting it sorted, probably £10k plus and 400hrs, but now have no time to actually use it.

Plus the 2ZZ has proven to be such a fragile engine in a race environment. I'm scunnered with it all.

My 2ZZ is a road car, so not a direct comparison. It's extremely tidy, with lots and lots of work done, plus it's 110% reliable. Some very nice parts on it too.

I'd value my car at circa £12K right now.

For context, I sold it for £4K in early 2015.

Quote from: Alex Knight on June 15, 2022, 14:45My 2ZZ is a road car, so not a direct comparison. It's extremely tidy, with lots and lots of work done, plus it's 110% reliable. Some very nice parts on it too.

I'd value my car at circa £12K right now.

For context, I sold it for £4K in early 2015.

£12k seriously? How have you got to that figure?

I guess when cars get to this age, they are worth what people will pay - especially with custom specs.

A friend has a Championship white, 2001 Civic type R, with full red carpets with black/black interior. Totally original with 80k miles.

Car is immaculate, I'd go as far as saying it is probably top 25 cleanest Mk1 Type R's in the country and IMO the most desirable (and rare) colour combo. He turned down an offer of £23k for it - which was very decent - but his logic is selling an appreciating asset and how do you replace it (he only uses it a handful of times a year).

I don't know whether to sell or not - I'm just fed up with it - I want a race car that works.

Would putting back in a humble 1zz not float your boat then? Id guess you would race in a different class/series, but much more chance of getting the reliability you want.

This thread is exactly why im leaving a 1zz in my track car. Sure we know its not very quick in a straight line, but i dont care about that one bit. The fact it works is all i need and want.

@AJRFulton said:
I don't know whether to sell or not - I'm just fed up with it - I want a race car that works.

You may well be closer to the perfect race car than you think!

From Autosport.com:
I always thought that this quote was from Innes Ireland in speaking about the Lotus cars...

I was curious, so I did some checking... and I found this reference:
"Famous Quotes From F1"

... in '59 I ran out of brakes four times -- and I don't mean they didn't work very well, I mean I had none. Like the main oil line had sheared. You know, so that oil, you know, when you put your foot on the floor, the oil just went squirting out into the atmosphere. I'd always believed that Colin was close to genius in his design ability and everything, if he could just get over this failing of his of making things too bloody light. I mean, Colin's idea of a Grand Prix car was it should win the race and, as it crossed the finishing line, it should collapse in a heap of bits. If it didn't do that, it was built too strongly.

-Innes Ireland

Quote from: JB21 on June 15, 2022, 15:00£12k seriously? How have you got to that figure?

Quite easily. As has been noted above, something is worth what someone is willing to pay, and I believe that someone would pay that.

For example, the seats alone are worth £1500-£2000 (and increasing) and that's without the genuine Recaro subframes.

That's getting on for half of what I first sold my car for.

If you don't love it anymore sell it.
Getting rid of mine was one of the best decisions I've made in life.
People with 100% reliable unmodified cars probably cant understand how much of a drag it becomes.

I used to own a garage and I have advised customers to get rid of their troublesome cars...

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 15, 2022, 15:12I guess when cars get to this age, they are worth what people will pay - especially with custom specs.

A friend has a Championship white, 2001 Civic type R, with full red carpets with black/black interior. Totally original with 80k miles.

Car is immaculate, I'd go as far as saying it is probably top 25 cleanest Mk1 Type R's in the country and IMO the most desirable (and rare) colour combo. He turned down an offer of £23k for it - which was very decent - but his logic is selling an appreciating asset and how do you replace it (he only uses it a handful of times a year).

I don't know whether to sell or not - I'm just fed up with it - I want a race car that works.

Always disheartening to read stuff like this but totally get where you're coming from - been there, done that!

For what it's worth I'd put a 1ZZ in and just enjoy it. I've got a whole bunch of juicy bits to take the 1ZZ to 170bhp ish and I've put that all on hold because, frankly, it's pretty good fun as it is and I can beat on it all day long with zero concerns :) I just added an oil cooler so all I have to do is take wee breaks now. It's still a very capable car on track and will show up plenty others in the right hands! (Just not mine 😂)

Quote from: moca2cv on June 16, 2022, 09:21For what it's worth I'd put a 1ZZ in and just enjoy it. I've got a whole bunch of juicy bits to take the 1ZZ to 170bhp ish and I've put that all on hold because, frankly, it's pretty good fun as it is and I can beat on it all day long with zero concerns :) I just added an oil cooler so all I have to do is take wee breaks now. It's still a very capable car on track and will show up plenty others in the right hands! (Just not mine 😂)

How did you manage to get inside my head and steal all my logical thoughts! 😜

Quote from: Iain on June 15, 2022, 17:11Would putting back in a humble 1zz not float your boat then? Id guess you would race in a different class/series, but much more chance of getting the reliability you want.

This thread is exactly why im leaving a 1zz in my track car. Sure we know its not very quick in a straight line, but i dont care about that one bit. The fact it works is all i need and want.

I'd still be in the same class with a 1ZZ, just 3 seconds a lap slower.

Finding other series means travelling a long way, so kind of stuck with what is available in Scotland. Even getting to my next closest tracks - Croft is 4.25hrs and Oulton Park is 5hrs with a trailer. Getting to the decent English series, you're talking 9-18hr round trips for each event. Reality is for the time and effort - it's a once a year treat.

I was in a similar position when building my weekend/track day toy.I did the conversion over lock-down on my own and nearly killed myself a few times, no 2 post lift etc. Once I'd finished it starting leaking from the rear main seal so gearbox off and replaced but I needed a month off from it as it was starting to get me down but I would say hang in. Now everyday feel a little low I grab the keys and go for a little drive, it puts a smile on my face after about 2 mins of driving, makes all the hard work worth while.

(https://i.ibb.co/wg47d7P/IMG-20220629-215214.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wg47d7P)

(https://i.ibb.co/C9C0WpZ/IMG-20220629-215137.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C9C0WpZ)

Been slowly working back to find the problem - which thanks to some help from JSpec - I've identified as a fueling issue. Seems the pump isn't working. I had been using a (eBay) fuel pressure gauge, but seems sensor is gubbed - as soon as ignition comes on it shows pressure which has fooled me. Taking the pipe off there is no pressure.

Traced the fuel pump wires back, and I've never actually been behind my dash. Opened it to find the above, which is pretty nasty. Whilst I've did a lot to this car, I bought it as a prepped race car (was never meant to be a project)

As said before a cat had gotten into the car over winter and used the loom as a scratch cord, but it's pulled out wires behind here too. So my guessing, after unwrapping a lot of tape, one of these loose connections drives the fuel pump. Where they go though!!

I've already replaced the looms, and put on the MWR 2ZZ conversion rig. As soon as I get this running again that is getting torn out and started again. Everything is getting labelled too. Given the rest of the car was done to a decent standard - surprised how bad the wiring is!

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 29, 2022, 22:45(https://i.ibb.co/wg47d7P/IMG-20220629-215214.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wg47d7P)

(https://i.ibb.co/C9C0WpZ/IMG-20220629-215137.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C9C0WpZ)

Been slowly working back to find the problem - which thanks to some help from JSpec - I've identified as a fueling issue. Seems the pump isn't working. I had been using a (eBay) fuel pressure gauge, but seems sensor is gubbed - as soon as ignition comes on it shows pressure which has fooled me. Taking the pipe off there is no pressure.

Traced the fuel pump wires back, and I've never actually been behind my dash. Opened it to find the above, which is pretty nasty. Whilst I've did a lot to this car, I bought it as a prepped race car (was never meant to be a project)

As said before a cat had gotten into the car over winter and used the loom as a scratch cord, but it's pulled out wires behind here too. So my guessing, after unwrapping a lot of tape, one of these loose connections drives the fuel pump. Where they go though!!

I've already replaced the looms, and put on the MWR 2ZZ conversion rig. As soon as I get this running again that is getting torn out and started again. Everything is getting labelled too. Given the rest of the car was done to a decent standard - surprised how bad the wiring is!

Glad you've found the issue, must be a relief. It all makes sense now if the fueling was out. Guessing you never had a engine check light for this issue?

Quote from: JB21 on June 30, 2022, 08:22Glad you've found the issue, must be a relief. It all makes sense now if the fueling was out. Guessing you never had a engine check light for this issue?

I run an aftermarket ECU. Dash is bare minimal.

Quote from: Anon on June 30, 2022, 09:14There is a theme round here when it comes to other people doing the work!

Does it run now if you put 12v direct to the pump wires?

That is tonights job. Going to pop down to see Andy at J-Spec after work and nick another fuel pump assembly and loom - just incase the Walbro 255 has failed, a 2nd pump will easily eliminate that (very useful having J-Spec literally 5 mins from my house and Andy is great to deal with)

It's not in keeping with the rest of the car tbf.  The bodywork is a bit tatty with dinks and scrapes and bumper held together with tie wraps (most cars in a race paddock seen to tie wrap the bumpers on - logic being it does less damage when they get ripped off) - but it's a non-road legal race car so to be expected. Everything else had been done pretty much right, and have found very few bodge jobs...... until I went behind the dash for the first time in 3.5yrs of ownership.

To be fair the actual layout of the switches, dials, etc - isn't too bad (I do like the light up thermal circuit breakers instead of fuses) but..... it is a tangled mess and some of the connections are not the best, or been put together badly and as said.... a cat got into the car over winter and has pulled things out with its scratching - I'm not sure where the loose wires go. It probably isn't as bad a job as it seems, but the 10 point cage makes getting the dashboard out a chore, and even with the interior totally stripped and seat out - there still isn't much room in there. Perhaps the lack of room to manoeuvre is the reason why it seems to have been wrapped in fabric tape then stuffed into an area you can't really see - out of site, out of mind and all that.

I've changed the car a lot since I got it, although mainly spent 3yrs changing 2ZZ engines as they don't seem to like track use. Hoping this incarnation, essentially a brand new engine, fixes the problems (issue is the problems are varied, so can't pin it down to one thing).

Are you sure it is not mice in the car and chewing the loom/wires?

Quote from: Mark A on June 30, 2022, 11:58Are you sure it is not mice in the car and chewing the loom/wires?

Definitely been a cat, it has scratched all my old seat as well.... and sprayed urine to mark its territory, left hair balls........ and the biggest give away - I caught it in there! I suppose in a round about way, the plus side of having a cat in there.... no mice.

I have an access hatch in the bulkhead which I had left open over winter, despite the car being covered and indoors (I had pushed it into what was an old stable, it's an old farm building and cats can get in by jumping up on a wall and getting through a gap the eaves) there is still a way in. Tight squeeze, but a cat can get in.

Ok.....

My engine is running but......

I spent the day with Andy down at J-Spec. The guy is an absolute star.

Pretty much fully rewired the car. Brought the wiring back OEM and will make relevant race scrutineering mods from here.

Aside from fresh harnesses, I also bought the MWR 2ZZ Conversion harness - keeps it all clean.

Anyway long story short....

My Apexi - engine doesn't run.
Spare Apexi Andy had - doesn't run.
Celica ECU - starts immediately.

I can't run the OEM ECU due to the top end work. Cannot work out why both Apexi units won't start the car. Mine worked fine with old (now broken) harness.

Any ideas?

You're welcome to come over and try your Apex'i ECU(s) on my 2ZZ car if you like? That'd tell you definitively if the ECU is goosed.

I'm in Perthshire.

Cheers Alex, I'm up your way all the time as my Mrs is from your neck of the woods but..... We are away on holiday as of midweek, so wouldn't be back up until end of August.

That said, surprised we didn't think of that today given Andy has a 2ZZ MR2. I'll ping him a message and drop that in on Monday to see if he could test it. Rules out everything then and 5 minute job to test.

I suspect both the Apexi units are fine - very unlikely to have 2 known working units fail - but something daft is stopping it starting. Although if it is gubbed I would be replacing with ECU master.

Only difference is my new loom is straight out a 1ZZ and unmolested (bar throttle body wiring mod), and I'm using the MWR plug 'n play conversion kit, rather than bodging a harness.

https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/mwr-plug-n-play-adapter-mr2-spyder-2zz-swap/

My old loom ended up a mash of repairs and broken wires, just with engine changes and work with the racing. With J-Spec 2 mins down the road, it's easier just to get another loom in future - that kit takes hours off the job.

I am running slightly larger injectors right enough. Lost faith in the OEM ones as they kept failing, so went aftermarket. Although would you expect those to fire on an OEM ECU and not an Apexi?

You're welcome, no problem.

I'm also using the MWR harness. Presume you have bypassed the adapter harness for the immobiliser wires?

What size injectors are you using?

450cc Denso injectors - MWR ones. Had 2x OEM injectors failing (one old, one new) so as said lost faith in them.

Immobiliser shouldn't be relevant with the Apexi? Never had any bypass on the old loom.



I reckon I'm going to keep the car dashless

(https://i.ibb.co/5WLCLBT/IMG-20220716-142514.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5WLCLBT)

Aluminium clad the centre console for the switches and gauges. About 15kg out the car. Gets it down to about 950kg.

@Alex Knight

Gave my Apexi to J-Spec today, so see what he finds. However he has the modified loom rather than standard loom with MWR harness. Given my Apexi was last known working on a modified loom - assuming it works on his (will find out tonight). I may take you up on the offer of trying it on yours as that will then be as close to like for like as possible.

I'd be next passing your neck of the woods either the evening of Friday 12th or afternoon/evening Sunday 14th if you're about?

Quote from: AJRFulton on July 18, 2022, 12:57@Alex Knight

Gave my Apexi to J-Spec today, so see what he finds. However he has the modified loom rather than standard loom with MWR harness. Given my Apexi was last known working on a modified loom - assuming it works on his (will find out tonight). I may take you up on the offer of trying it on yours as that will then be as close to like for like as possible.

I'd be next passing your neck of the woods either the evening of Friday 12th or afternoon/evening Sunday 14th if you're about?

Hi there,

You're welcome to come over on the 12th. Can't do the 14th though.

Keep me posted.

Quote from: Alex Knight on July 18, 2022, 13:41Hi there,

You're welcome to come over on the 12th. Can't do the 14th though.

Keep me posted.

No probs bud. I'll let you know. As said away on holiday from midweek.

Quote from: Anon on July 18, 2022, 18:42Maybe though when someone wired up the Apexi, they used different input channels for different purposes.

e.g. Crank and cam swapped or MAP/MAF swapped, coolant/air temp sensor swapped etc

So reverting to some "off the shelf" harness is not going to work.

And also trying the non typical configured ECU will not work in another car.

Before you know it the "tuner" is telling you the ECU is faulty  :))

I'd get that with 1x Apexi - but tried it with 2x.  Good relationship with my tuner too, he is best friends with my best friend's big brother. So known him since I was 12-13.

J-Spec being literally 5 mins away is good that way. Andy has what, 10 MR2's laying there for breaking, then other bits on the shelves - so another Apexi there to try. Very handy taking the car down and just taking bits as needed, or looking where things go, as needed.

>:D

Quote from: Anon on July 18, 2022, 19:47But the settings would be changed... so only a correctly configured Apexi will work. You can pick what input/output channels do what when they are first configured.

Swapping them about would tell you nothing at that point.

Quote from: Anon on July 18, 2022, 19:47But the settings would be changed... so only a correctly configured Apexi will work. You can pick what input/output channels do what when they are first configured.

Swapping them about would tell you nothing at that poin

Quote from: Anon on July 18, 2022, 19:47But the settings would be changed... so only a correctly configured Apexi will work. You can pick what input/output channels do what when they are first configured.

Swapping them about would tell you nothing at that point.

Can factory reset ECU via FC Controller bud.

Anyway, Andy ran it on his car tonight - started pretty much instantly, and ran fine. Pretty safe to assume now that my Apexi is working. Andy is running a stock 2ZZ.

So some head scratching now. Why would a stock ECU run my car, and not my Apexi? That MWR kit should be a straight plun and play on a stock 1ZZ harness, with running the lift solenoid wires, and switching the throttle body wires?

Open to suggestions.

Alternative @Alex Knight I bring this to you and run it on something that is close to a like for like car. Is it the harness that could be causing it? Although AFAIK the immobiliser is irrelevant in the Apexi FC - it isn't programmed in, but interested in what you're saying about bypass wires.

Clearly something silly now stopping car from starting.

When I bought the MWR swap harness back in 2013, it was basically a USA-centric swap harness with zero thought or provision for the EU immobiliser. I didn't know this at the time of installation.

I was a bit irked, as the patch harness was supposed to be plug and play. What we figured out in the end was that we had to de-pin five wires from the loom that were terminating at the patch harness (and then basically going nowhere), and re-pin them directly to the ECU.


The five pins you need to remove and re-pin are the following:

A2  MR2 Loom -> A2 Celica (2ZZ) ECU
B7  MR2 Loom -> B7 Celica (2ZZ) ECU
B15 MR2 Loom -> B15 Celica (2ZZ) ECU
B17 MR2 Loom -> B17 Celica (2ZZ) ECU
B26 MR2 Loom -> B26 Celica (2ZZ) ECU

But like I said, that was in 2013, and they may have changed the harness since then?

Not asked Matt about it, however it does state its been redesigned on the site.

It is running the stock ECU and tbh it sounds fine when running. Wouldn't like to run that at revs right enough - but idle is fine.

The FC commander is talking to the ECU. Nothing seems amiss, but.... It's ancient tech. Obviously I'd rather have an ECUMaster, but can't justify spending £1k when the Apexi works and tbh.... Is still good enough.

I contacted Matt @ MWR and he suggested to try another cam sensor as an easy hit as the Apexi won't fire, but OEM would with a faulty one.

Will get one off JSpec tonight and see. However that will be that for 2.5wks as off on a touring holiday to the Alps.

Well got to the bottom of this.

I bought an Odessy PCM680 motorsport battery last year, replacement for the PCM680 that was in it. Quite literally it had almost never been used, < 10 laps completed then sat with the power kill switch tripped for months.

With the car sitting over winter as the new engine was built, the battery went a bit dead. Which was fine. My battery charger is attached to the wall, and the race battery is in a case and bolted down, so it's a bit of a pain to remove - I've got a power pack that I'd use to jump anyway.

However, I took the Odessey battery out and put it on the charger. Came back the next day and the casing had swollen out - multi-meter across the terminals and only 8V. That is the 2nd PCM680 battery I've had this happen to, however the first was maybe 6/7 yrs old. I appreciate a lightweight battery might only have a life of 4-5-6yrs.

Put in a charged regular battery (and pursuing a warranty claim for the Odessey), and..... started immediately with the Apexi.

Can only assume the way the ECU powers up is different as the OEM ECU was starting fine with a f**ked battery and a power pack (then running off alternator power), but the Apexi was not.

I have started the car with a flat battery, and power pack before (with the Apexi in situ), with no issues - but that was a working battery. I don't see any obvious reason why this would be the case, but it really isn't my field (feel free to enlighten me).

Been chasing my tail for a very long time with this.

Quote from: Anon on August 18, 2022, 17:53Well done on getting running again!

I think the Odyssey PCM680 is an AGM battery.

I don't mean to teach you to suck eggs etc, and you may be fully aware of this:-

AGM have a different charge voltage than a normal Lead Acid battery as fitted to the MR2 originally.

The MR2 will have a charge rectifier/regulator built into the back of the alternator which is applicable to lead acid batteries - e.g. 14v .... also when testing a normal lead acid battery, fully charged is 12.6v

An AGM battery charges at more like 14.8v... and to check if it is fully charged it's 13v

Might seem like a small difference, but it means you are only charging the battery upto about 70% using the MR2 charge system with an AGM fitted - which would be fine as long as you connect it to an AGM compatible charger while the car is in your garage.

It is usually on an AGM compatible trickle charge when it's parked up. It's attached to my wall, so car has to be parked up next to it. (Yeah it can be taken off wall, but screws, effort, etc).

I've the older version of this charger
https://www.demon-tweeks.com/odyssey-battery-charger-2014873/?sku=ODYP0053021&istCompanyId=a2904180-3a7d-4e56-b876-cf81c9512180&istFeedId=6fbc4b04-fd28-4ce1-8513-835c8f118690&istItemId=iatiittla&istBid=t&gclid=Cj0KCQjwxveXBhDDARIsAI0Q0x37hb_MzkhAAFoBnnGgNUVkZ1AgbpVg89dt2suVMqieHoEBudGVXr8aAtv7EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

However when I eventually took the battery out of the car and put it on the trickle charger, it swelled.

Glad you sorted it, in my experience the hassle of the Odyssey batteries isnt the worth the weight saving!  no point saving a few kg if the car wont start!, been there done that many times never again and there are better solutions if wanting a light battery but cost a lot more.

As above the charging voltage and maintenance of these little batteries is critical to getting even a reasonable life from them, i fryed my first one by using a normal charger but luckily they replaced it under warranty, 2nd one did a lot better while car was in regular use but once sat and left to go flat it was never same again even using proper charger.

At least you are up and running again :D

I use a 12v golf cart battery. Its 6kg but does a decent job and never let me down unlike the previous Varley red top that was on there which popped my ECU.

Quote from: thetyrant on August 19, 2022, 09:19Glad you sorted it, in my experience the hassle of the Odyssey batteries isnt the worth the weight saving!  no point saving a few kg if the car wont start!, been there done that many times never again and there are better solutions if wanting a light battery but cost a lot more.

As above the charging voltage and maintenance of these little batteries is critical to getting even a reasonable life from them, i fryed my first one by using a normal charger but luckily they replaced it under warranty, 2nd one did a lot better while car was in regular use but once sat and left to go flat it was never same again even using proper charger.

At least you are up and running again :D

Well put the heavy component as low as possible in the car, and as far to the front passenger side as possible (along with the fire extinguisher). So passenger footwell is the ideal place but..... it is now in the cabin and it gets scrutineered and my experience is that scrutineers love to check in cabin batteries. I've had to run around the paddock before trying to borrow a terminal cover after mine was deemed a bit perished (which it was..... but a lot would have had to happen for it to be in danger of arcing)

So it has to be a non-spill (motorsport) battery, with a suitably shock resistant battery casing, in a suitable motorsport secondary case, bolted to the floor with appropriate strength bolts, etc. That's the main reason why I chose a an Odessey battery - its the cheapest way to be compliant.

If the car was track day only, I'd just have a small regular battery and the run the risk of dying of acid burns should I roll 20 times (which IMO is a very small risk) - Never weighed them, but the battery in the Mrs Honda Jazz will be in the same ball park with weight.

Quote from: Anon on August 19, 2022, 17:13If it's outside the cockpit can it be a normal battery?

Not actually sure. I'd need to read the blue book, and individual championship regulations.

Although the passenger foot well is probably the best place to put the battery in terms of being low and as far to the "light" side of the car as possible.

In terms of performance gain, it's nothing.... But if you do 5 things that have an unnoticable 0.05s a lap performance gain then you've made the car 0.25s a lap faster. It's the motorsport worm hole  :)) (although I'd settle for a full season of a working car).

End of the day the battery costs about £100. If it needs replaced every 2-3yrs it's pennies in motorsport terms.

Well, I have (had) a transit van that had been converted to a race/day van. Used for towing the car, and occasional weekend camping.

I was going down to Wales on Thursday night, camping this weekend. Cruising at 60-70mph somewhere south of Carlisle and bang the rear offside tyre blew out.

(https://i.ibb.co/9tcW2WY/IMG-20220923-WA0003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9tcW2WY)

Van fish tailed, I thought I had corrected it after the initial squirming, the van went straight for a second or two but the fish tailing resumed only more violently and with a high top van, we flipped, hit the embankment and rolled.


(https://i.ibb.co/qCCncpC/IMG-20220923-002648-165.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qCCncpC)

The van did its job and surprisingly came out ok body panel wise. However images don't show well how squint the chassis now is. Going by the back doors, a good few inches of bending has happened. Van only had an MOT on 15th September.

I initially thought I was OK, a bit of a sore back. Paramedics checked me over at scene and gave ok. 12hrs later the adrenaline wore off and it was obvious there was something wrong with my back, so off to A&E.

A CT scan and lots of doctor chat later I'm told I've fractured a vertibrate, and remain in hospital. I'm still waiting for an MRI scan to assess how bad the damage is, but optimistic it's fairly minor by broken back standards.

However getting told you've broken your back and being put on a spinal protocol in hospital, then a doctor telling you you have to be braced in a bed as a precaution to minimise the risk of permanent damage or paralysis..... It gets your attention!

I've only just got the car almost race ready again. However it will be at least 8-12wks before I'm back working on it, and - at least - 6mths before I'll be allowed to race again.

@AJRFulton

Can't like your post other than for the fact that you can write the post!
Get well soon.

PS
Tyres are being discussed, again, currently, you have highlighted why that may be.

Bad luck but lucky escape.
Hope that you are better soon.  :)

Quote from: Joesson on September 26, 2022, 11:34@AJRFulton

Can't like your post other than for the fact that you can write the post!
Get well soon.

The lesson to be learned is cheap and retread tyres.

Generally, brakes and tyres, two things I never go cheap with. No idea what exactly caused the blow out. Van was MOT'd a few days ago, and I had checked tyre pressures after loading up, and were fine.

The van had 4 retreads on it when I bought it. I replaced the front 2x but the back was always "I'll get round to it". I don't do much mileage with the van, I only use it a handful of times a year. So it got forgotten about tbh.

But yeah, I'm lucky and unlucky at the same time. Flipping a van at motorway speed will always be a fairly big accident. I've only ever rolled in a track car before, at a race track - and that was nowhere near as violent feeling despite being significantly higher speed.

Being bed bound for the next 6 weeks will be the hard bit. Not a lifestyle I am used to, or have the kit around the house to accommodate.

@AJRFulton

Cheap/ retread tyres are something I bought once, on the advice of the Firestone tyre fitting shop. Four retreads on my Imp.
The front offside split on the side wall after about 7 miles. Some argument about You must have kerbed it but I got a refund and 4 new tyres.
Fortunately my incident was at manoeuvring speed on a residential road and no drama involved, other than what could have happened as we had young children at the time.
Will you be in bed at home, or in the hospital?
I do believe that Home Help can be provided and I suggest you don't be shy about asking for it before they ship you home.

Quote from: Joesson on September 26, 2022, 12:07@AJRFulton

Cheap/ retread tyres are something I bought once, on the advice of the Firestone tyre fitting shop. Four retreads on my Imp.
The front offside split on the side wall after about 7 miles. Some argument about You must have kerbed it but I got a refund and 4 new tyres.
Fortunately my incident was at manoeuvring speed on a residential road and no drama involved, other than what could have happened as we had young children at the time.
Will you be in bed at home, or in the hospital?
I do believe that Home Help can be provided and I suggest you don't be shy about asking for it before they ship you home.

I'm in hospital just now. I had a CT on arrival and it confirmed the injury, but the resolution of that scan isn't high enough to determine the exact nature of the fracture. Hoping to get an MRI today, and then that will be reviewed by a specialist and they'll decide the appropriate treatment.

If the bone is stable and it's assessed it's a normal compound fracture (of the L1 vertibrate), I'll be out of hospital this week and it will be home care for the next 6 weeks or so.

Of course it may be worse, but the consultant is advising me that this isn't expected - but they have to be sure, and (quite rightfully) will always be cautious with spinal injuries. With it being over the weekend, there has been a lack of availability of a spine specialist.

It isn't actually that painful, unless I move the wrong way. I'm sat in bed here fairly pain free. However.... Trying to move is a different story.

Quote from: AJRFulton on September 26, 2022, 12:27I'm in hospital just now. I had a CT on arrival and it confirmed the injury, but the resolution of that scan isn't high enough to determine the exact nature of the fracture. Hoping to get an MRI today, and then that will be reviewed by a specialist and they'll decide the appropriate treatment.

If the bone is stable and it's assessed it's a normal compound fracture (of the L1 vertibrate), I'll be out of hospital this week and it will be home care for the next 6 weeks or so.

Of course it may be worse, but the consultant is advising me that this isn't expected - but they have to be sure, and (quite rightfully) will always be cautious with spinal injuries. With it being over the weekend, there has been a lack of availability of a spine specialist.

It isn't actually that painful, unless I move the wrong way. I'm sat in bed here fairly pain free. However.... Trying to move is a different story.

The weekend is often the time when things go wrong, the shops used to be closed, not so bad nowadays if you need a spark plug, a cup of sugar, or whatever. But  the Hospitals don't seem to cater for what is often a higher influx of patients at ha time. Sometimes with difficulty much of the time. I do believe that once you are out of A&E, in a bed, in a ward, things usually progress for the better.
You seem to be able to move your fingers to reply, so hopefully that movement will soon progress, pain free, to other parts.

Quote from: Joesson on September 26, 2022, 13:39The weekend is often the time when things go wrong, the shops used to be closed, not so bad nowadays if you need a spark plug, a cup of sugar, or whatever. But  the Hospitals don't seem to cater for what is often a higher influx of patients at ha time. Sometimes with difficulty much of the time. I do believe that once you are out of A&E, in a bed, in a ward, things usually progress for the better.
You seem to be able to move your fingers to reply, so hopefully that movement will soon progress, pain free, to other parts.

My legs are moving fine too.

I came in expecting a pulled ligament, slipped disc, etc. I was surprised it's a fracture.

I played football and have broken 5 bones prior to this, and this isn't that painful when at rest.

Quote from: AJRFulton on September 26, 2022, 14:17My legs are moving fine too.

I came in expecting a pulled ligament, slipped disc, etc. I was surprised it's a fracture.

I played football and have broken 5 bones prior to this, and this isn't that painful when at rest.

Thus far I have broken only one bone, my toe, next to my big toe, caught it in the gap between floor mats when training, one of the very few times I used floor mats!
It healed bent, and rubbed sore from the inside of my shoes. I asked my GP, he laughed!
I went home and used two wooden match sticks and some Elastoplast type tape and straightened the toe in my home made splint. After a while it straightened sufficient to prevent my toe rubbing on my shoe.
If I can be of assistance with your back, let me know!

I'm sorry to hear of your accident, hope you get better soon. Take care @AJRFulton

 :o gutted for you after was is a shocking experxance.
the main thing is your alive and talking.
as always things could have been worse.

the hard thing now is how to deal with the inactive.
keep posting on here and lets us how you get on.
hopefully you have some nice nurses looking after you before you get home.

take care and  keep fighting

Very sorry to hear about this. I hope you make a quick and pain free recovery. Sounds like you will have plenty of time on your hands to argue with your insurance company and research your new van!

Quote from: Topdownman on September 28, 2022, 09:26Very sorry to hear about this. I hope you make a quick and pain free recovery. Sounds like you will have plenty of time on your hands to argue with your insurance company and research your new van!

The insurance claim has been surprisingly easy to deal with. Engineers have assessed the van and agree the van suffered an offside rear failure. It's obviously going to be a total loss.

I should be paid out by the end of the week.

Unfortunately I am still in hospital though, so - it will be a winter project getting a new van ready.

Get well. Please let it take the time it needs to take!

Ouch! (a slight understatement).
Take it easy & I hope your recovery is swift.

Quote from: Carolyn on September 28, 2022, 18:24Get well. Please let it take the time it needs to take!

Impossible to ´like´ that enough.

After the accident, I did put a post up on the Instagram account I use for my racing. Warning about cheap, part worn and retread tyres.

Got a message from a lad which made me feel glad I posted up about it.


(https://i.ibb.co/WPzRy97/IMG-20220929-144250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WPzRy97)

(https://i.ibb.co/LhVTp5q/Screenshot-2022-09-27-16-44-30-27-1c337646f29875672b5a61192b9010f9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LhVTp5q)

That is disaster waiting to happen.

I'm sure that your story is a lesson in and of itself, and I'm sure that you won't ever again use retreads/remoulds, and I'm glad you're ok.

But I cannot for the life of me understand what (apart from money) drove you to go down this route in the first place?

I learned very early on that there are things you just don't skimp on, like bin bags, brakes, washing up liquid, tyres...

Quote from: Alex Knight on September 30, 2022, 09:36I'm sure that your story is a lesson in and of itself, and I'm sure that you won't ever again use retreads/remoulds, and I'm glad you're ok.

But I cannot for the life of me understand what (apart from money) drove you to go down this route in the first place?

I learned very early on that there are things you just don't skimp on, like bin bags, brakes, washing up liquid, tyres...

They were on the van when I bought it. I changed the fronts and left the backs (money reasons).

I only do about 1500 miles a year in the van, and it's never loaded anywhere near its weight, so it has never been a priority to change them. One of those things on a to do list, that never gets done.

 :) hi what is the latest now with your recovery if you don't mind me asking :)

Dont know how I missed this, but get well soon.

The cracking and splitting seen above is not unique to cheap / remould tyres. I came out into the work car cark a few weeks ago to see a car with a similar splits in the tyres on both front wheels.

I managed to speak to them about it and they just shrugged it off saying they'll get it done sometime! There is no teaching some people, but hopefully they dont injure anyone.

Quote from: puma2 on September 30, 2022, 13:29:) hi what is the latest now with your recovery if you don't mind me asking :)

The doctors are satisfied the bone is stable.

I'm just awaiting discharge, but in a brace for 6-8wks. So minimal activity and a few adaptations the hospital are giving me for the recovery phase.

Will be able to do a phased return to work in 10-12wks, all going well. Will be at least 12wks before I'm able to exercise. Going to be about 4mths before I can return to sport.

Quote from: tricky1138 on September 30, 2022, 14:55Dont know how I missed this, but get well soon.

The cracking and splitting seen above is not unique to cheap / remould tyres. I came out into the work car cark a few weeks ago to see a car with a similar splits in the tyres on both front wheels.

I managed to speak to them about it and they just shrugged it off saying they'll get it done sometime! There is no teaching some people, but hopefully they dont injure anyone.

My tyres we're fine, passed an MOT with them a few days before. Checked the pressures as well the day before and no obvious defect.

Still awaiting the engineers report for the van (although 100% it will be a write off)

Quote from: AJRFulton on September 30, 2022, 14:59The doctors are satisfied the bone is stable.

I'm just awaiting discharge, but in a brace for 6-8wks. So minimal activity and a few adaptations the hospital are giving me for the recovery phase.

Will be able to do a phased return to work in 10-12wks, all going well. Will be at least 12wks before I'm able to exercise. Going to be about 4mths before I can return to sport.

good man keep at it. the Frustration of not being active for so long is probably  the hardest thing to deal with.
Now do as your told with all the exercise and i hope some one at home can make u a cuppa  and look after you.   

And like that the insurance engineers called me.

They recovered part of (what they think is) a scaffold board end plate from the tyre, which was embedded into the tyre with a nail.

So.... looks like road debris caused the tyre to fail.

Claim seems straight forward from here, happy enough with their valuation. Should be settled for next week.

You're happy with their valuation? Are they still giving you drugs?! Just kidding, glad you are happy with things and that it was debris that caused the accident and your assessment of your vehicle was good and no fault on your part.

A 4 month wait before a return to sport sounds like a win (but still not something any of us would want).

I hate following scaffolding lorries as it looks to me like they just rely on gravity keeping all their bits in the wagon.

Get well soon.

Quote from: Topdownman on September 30, 2022, 16:09You're happy with their valuation? Are they still giving you drugs?! Just kidding, glad you are happy with things and that it was debris that caused the accident and your assessment of your vehicle was good and no fault on your part.

A 4 month wait before a return to sport sounds like a win (but still not something any of us would want).

I hate following scaffolding lorries as it looks to me like they just rely on gravity keeping all their bits in the wagon.

Get well soon.

Yeah, a 2012 transit 'day van' with 120k on clock. They're offering me £4.5k for it.

Van cost me £3.5k 2yrs ago and then spent about £1k on making it a day van (and salvaged a lot of the bits leisure batteries, diesel heater, fridge, inverter, etc). I had insured it for a value of £5k.

(https://i.ibb.co/z6jjXQC/IMG-20230223-200456.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z6jjXQC)

I sold my Apexi unit to JB24

Installed this, and car doesn't even sound like it wants to fire. Fuel pump is pressurising.

Any ideas?

What map is on it ?  presume it came with a starter map

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 24, 2023, 11:01(https://i.ibb.co/z6jjXQC/IMG-20230223-200456.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z6jjXQC)

I sold my Apexi unit to JB24

Installed this, and car doesn't even sound like it wants to fire. Fuel pump is pressurising.

Any ideas?

From RRR, with their loom etc?

Assuming tps is calibrated and all inputs and outputs are correct?

As I've seen another one if these that had the RRR look and map and it had a different loom configuration to mine.

I can send you over a few 2zz maps to try.

Quote from: Anon on February 24, 2023, 17:36What do you guys running aftermarket ecu do with your temp gauge, charge light, oil pressure light?

With ECU Master EMU, the software is super easy to install on laptop and plug in with USB. Its like a million trillion times more usable than Apexi etc. Totally live tuning too, and the autotune is very helpful for getting your VE table bob on so the AFR target/correction does less bodging.

Then you can see all the live dashboard data like TPS, MAP, RPMs etc etc.

Get to know it, beings pretty hands on with it and knowing how to use it will be very useful to you over the years.

No tuner will ever dot the i's and cross the t's.... well unless you fancy 50 hours plus labor.

With the EMU Master live data dashboard, it will be obvious what is or isn't going on.

Emu black retains the standard ECU to run some items on there.

But I've not got any OEM gauge or light that doesn't work.

I run oil temp/pressure and AFR gauges separately.

Long term plan is full Digi dash, but it's fine for now.

Quote from: Gaz2405 on February 24, 2023, 14:10From RRR, with their loom etc?

Assuming tps is calibrated and all inputs and outputs are correct?

As I've seen another one if these that had the RRR look and map and it had a different loom configuration to mine.

I can send you over a few 2zz maps to try.

I don't own a laptop which is annoying.

It's from RRR with their loom. MR2 2ZZ option on their site.

Quote from: AJRFulton on February 24, 2023, 18:36I don't own a laptop which is annoying.

It's from RRR with their loom. MR2 2ZZ option on their site.

Your going to need a laptop as a 1st step to see what is on there and check sensors etc, going standalone will require some learning and a laptop to access it,  or get ready to spend more time and £££ at tuners if you dont want to do that.

Probably no map on the ecu unless they specifically say it has one i cant see mention of it on site.

Quote from: thetyrant on March  6, 2023, 10:09Your going to need a laptop as a 1st step to see what is on there and check sensors etc, going standalone will require some learning and a laptop to access it,  or get ready to spend more time and £££ at tuners if you dont want to do that.

Probably no map on the ecu unless they specifically say it has one i cant see mention of it on site.

Pretty sure it does come with an map installed.

I've got a desktop pc, but no laptop.

Going to have a bit of a play tonight with the car start getting it all buttoned back up.

I would check with RRR if they supply a startup base map loaded on the Ecu when buying that package, or if they should of put one on and maybe forgot or can send you one etc...  your going to need a laptop or move your desktop into the garage close enough to car but better to have a laptop.

It used to be with a  universal standalone like this you got nothing and have to start from scratch, and i mean scratch working out whats connected to what pin/wire and what type of sensor or load you can but on that wire etc then setting all the inputs and outputs etc,  i know some now supply at least a startup map with base settings for sensors etc but not all do, also even with that still often needs a tweak to get it started so having a laptop to get access to ecu while sat in car is vital imo.





 

I've never messed with tuning cars at all, but I want to get it running then let the experts deal with it.

Ordered a long USB extension so should be able to move my desktop into the garage. I'll get around to getting a laptop. I've got a Bosch 4.9 wideband, but will need to modify something to get it on the exhaust.

Although tonights plan is to take the loom off the engine and thread it neatly through it's final wiring.

Struggling a bit with my injury and working in the cold weather.

I don't have a map on the ECU.

Does anyone have one for the 2zz?

I noticed a hairline crack in the Elise parts sump, and given its an easy fix as it seemed to be on seam I decided to take it off to get it welded (it was an easy fix).

My oil was cloudy like Somerset cider.

Bottom of my sump had a layer of light grey stuff that looked like a lot like a thin grey clay, but.... not in an emulsified head gasket gone way. I suspect this may be arp lube and assembly lube, mixed with bearing coatings, that settled over 5mths. However more than I'd expect.

Bare in mind this engine still hasn't really ran and the block is new. It has sat with mineral oil in it for 5mths and over winter (coldest night here was -14°).

I sampled my coolant and oil and  one of the perks of work is I have access to an analysis lab.

Oil is water contaminated at about 250ppm, which is in the realms of condensation, but also in realms of something bad happening.

Oil has glycol present, but in a ratio about 5x-8x less than ppm of water if it was coolant. This may be additive to the oil or..... could be coolant.

Coolant has only a trace of oil present, but I would expect this just from assembly process. Traces will get in system.

I am suspecting/fearing a steam leak from somewhere between coolant and oil system, which isn't good news, as that can only really happen in the block or head..... Would explain lower glycol content in oil to water.

Wow, the luck you have with this car is unbelievable 😳

Quote from: JB21 on March 30, 2023, 19:42Wow, the luck you have with this car is unbelievable 😳

I'm taking a sample of new oil in tomorrow to run a test on it.

I flushed the oil as completely as possible as sump was off.

New oil in and ran car to temperature for 20 minutes. Let is cool. Then ran again for a minute.

Resampled the oil, and comparing fresh oil to oil that's been round the engine...... I'm confident now that athe engine has no leak and water/sludge was down to condensation and car sitting with mineral oil/assembly lubes for 5mths while I recovered from injury.

It is a relief!

 :) if you don't mind me asking how are at the moment and how is the recovery going :)

Quote from: puma2 on April  1, 2023, 12:46:) if you don't mind me asking how are at the moment and how is the recovery going :)

Cheers for asking, I'm able to do pretty much everything in the day to day again. Just really lack core fitness/strength and have put on about 12kg whilst injured - however it's moving the right way.

The only real legacy issue I'm having is flex in the right side of my hip which is making things like climbing steps/hills, cycling, running, difficult as I fatigue quickly. I struggle a bit to get into the awkward bits of the car too, I doubt I could do much work on it if I had anything other than a 2 post ramp.

Physio is targeting the end of summer for me being back to where I was before the crash. Doing pilates and flex classes now.

 :) glad to here it all going in the right direction for you.
so hopefully a good recovery in time 8)  8)

take your time and don't over do it easier said than done sometime you can only tell by the next day feeling.
enjoy the new classes that you did not do before but are doing now with the aim  of overall  improvement :)  :)   

It's been a long, long road - but finally the car is ready to roll back on track.

I was supposed to be at a track day today to give it a shake down today, but whilst the car works for once, it's my body that's let me down. I tore ligaments in my clutch foot last weekend and whilst "nearly" there, I can't quite push the clutch pedal safely.

I am entered into the double header Scottish Motorsports meet at Knockhill this weekend, but just need the pain to subside enough that I can push a pedal. They are giving me every chance and will let me withdraw on the day if need be. It will be a big ask going straight into competition having last had meaningful track time 3yrs ago and no track testing or fine tuning of the car - also on the reverse configuration of the track - which I've little experience on.

(https://i.ibb.co/Fs9yLH7/IMG-20230601-075830.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fs9yLH7)

(https://i.ibb.co/xz43CRf/IMG-20230601-075936.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xz43CRf)

Car is running well, engine is singing, and mechanically it's the best I've ever had it.

Had it professionally set up and corner weighted last week, and running it around the quarry car park it feels very good. Asked for a little less rear toe in over previous set ups. The changes at Knockhill should allow for a little less rear end stable car.

Great work and well done!

Car looks and sounds like it feels fantastic as well.

Quote from: Gaz2405 on June  1, 2023, 08:24Great work and well done!

Car looks and sounds like it feels fantastic as well.

We will see when it's on track.

I'm nervous about Saturday. It's been 2yrs since I was on track, and 3yrs since I can say I had proper trouble free running.

Going straight into competition with Knockhill in its reverse configuration (which I have less than 10 laps experience), with the track having a few changes since I last drove it, in a car that's untested and carrying ligament damage in my clutch foot....... What could go wrong!

I did pull out of the Scottish Modsports race as I felt there were too many "ifs" to jump straight into full blown racing, against seasoned racers - too much risk and I'm rusty. Instead I'm doing Superlap, which is a similar format to Time Attack - better format for the moment.

If I wasn't desperate to finally get a full season under my belt I'd be calling a rain check on this.

Good luck, hope all goes well and you enjoy it!

I'm happy to pedal it if you can't!

;D

Feel that was biggest downer I've had in racing.

Qualified the car in P1, which wasn't expected.

Then the diff blew. Rare thing to happen apparently.

Positives, car is on point.

Negatives... Another expensive retirement.

I've review the footage and I think the diffs a red herring. There's so much noise and I wear ear plugs, so hard to hear.

I think I've spun a bearing.


However looking at the longer footage my oil pressure never drops, nor does the oil pressure warning light (blue light on my dash that comes on when engine cuts out).

Engine is only 30 laps old, and bottom end was professionally rebuilt.

You have the worst luck of anyone I've ever known on a forum. Really sorry it's more bad news for you.

Looking at (and listening to) your footage, I can hear a distinct change in engine note right at the start of the video when you change up from 2nd to 3rd. I think that's where it let go.

Yeah mate. You can hear the car started going at hairpin. I had noticed it by the braking point for the chicane.

That's a brand new block and professionally rebuilt bottom end. Crank reground and balanced and running new OEM piston and rods. Fully reloomed, new coils, injectors, ECUMaster black, etc, etc. Engine ran in on a Dyno - went for OEM power. Spent the best part of £6k to get 29 laps running. Last time around I spent circa £4.5k to get 30 laps running, before that £2k to get 60 laps, etc. As well of hundreds of hours of time.

Running a baffled sump with accusump as backup (activates at 25psi). Running 5w40 NT+ oil.

That's the 3rd bearing I've spun in about 150 laps.

I think I'm through with the 2ZZ as an engine. It doesn't agree with me and seems prone to oiling issues

Kinel mate, that is just horrible luck once again. I blew my gerbox at Oulton on Wednesday, sounds similar but I knew it was the box instantly as 3rd gear wasn't there anymore.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/143564079695220/permalink/1262875877764029/

Can I suggest just chucking a used one in and sending it?

Absolutely gutted for you mate.

If it's just a standard diff you're after, happy to let mine go out of my box. (I'm going E153) For way below market value to see this get going again.

I also think you remained relatively calm straight after it, steering wheel would have been bent in two and launched through the screen if it was me.

It's not the diff. It's bottom end.

Even though I got the short block 17mths ago (it's taken me that long to get on track). Do you think I can claim there?

I've sank a lot of cash into this and did it right. I don't expect a professionally built engine for a race application to spin a main bearing so soon.

Quote from: AJRFulton on June  4, 2023, 15:14It's not the diff. It's bottom end.

Even though I got the short block 17mths ago (it's taken me that long to get on track). Do you think I can claim there?

I've sank a lot of cash into this and did it right. I don't expect a professionally built engine for a race application to spin a main bearing so soon.

Sorry for your bad luck :(
I'd guess that the engine builder offers no warranty for track (ab)use. That said, I like to believe most people are decent humans - and I would be asking the engine builder to investigate why this happened. If it turns out to be the fault of the engine builder give them a chance to rectify it. I suspect you won't get anywhere with a claim, other than putting the guy's back up.

6 weeks on and I still haven't done anything to the car other than drain the oil. The oil appeared absolutely fine and there was plenty of it, so struggling as to why starvation has happened, but we'll see when I finally get around to getting the sump off.

Honestly, I feel like this car and motorsport has broken me - mentally this put me in a very low mood for about a month – so much effort, time and money – all for nothing, and it's coming off the back of previous disappointment.

Getting this car back on track has been a struggle and the thought of starting again isn't sitting well with me. Running a race car unaided out of a shed at my parents, having to learn almost everything as I go, is the most difficult thing I've ever undertaken. The early part of this year I was juggling too many balls between doing a post-grad, working full time, the planning process for a house, building a camper van and doing the race car. Its burned me out.

I guess the one positive is that after 2yrs off track, coming back from a long term injury, and having had no track days or set up time prior to the event, I went straight back in and put the car fastest in class during qualifying before the engine went – albeit a slightly weaker field than normal. However between the car set up an my own rustiness there was still a good chunk of time in the car.

I think I'm done with competitive motorsport, I just don't have the resources mentally, physically and financially to keep doing it – its lead to too much disappointment and burden, I'm fed up being known as unlucky. Maybe I'll just go back down the track day route - no pressure to get a car 'right' and it fun is all that matters.

Quote from: AJRFulton on July 11, 2023, 10:426 weeks on and I still haven't done anything to the car other than drain the oil. The oil appeared absolutely fine and there was plenty of it, so struggling as to why starvation has happened, but we'll see when I finally get around to getting the sump off.

Honestly, I feel like this car and motorsport has broken me - mentally this put me in a very low mood for about a month – so much effort, time and money – all for nothing, and it's coming off the back of previous disappointment.

Getting this car back on track has been a struggle and the thought of starting again isn't sitting well with me. Running a race car unaided out of a shed at my parents, having to learn almost everything as I go, is the most difficult thing I've ever undertaken. The early part of this year I was juggling too many balls between doing a post-grad, working full time, the planning process for a house, building a camper van and doing the race car. Its burned me out.

I guess the one positive is that after 2yrs off track, coming back from a long term injury, and having had no track days or set up time prior to the event, I went straight back in and put the car fastest in class during qualifying before the engine went – albeit a slightly weaker field than normal. However between the car set up an my own rustiness there was still a good chunk of time in the car.

I think I'm done with competitive motorsport, I just don't have the resources mentally, physically and financially to keep doing it – its lead to too much disappointment and burden, I'm fed up being known as unlucky. Maybe I'll just go back down the track day route - no pressure to get a car 'right' and it fun is all that matters.

Track day route totally makes sense. Like I said get a used engine, forget all the bells and whistles and just go and enjoy the car without the pressure of competing.

The only issue with track days, it's a 175 mile round trip to the nearest track. The distance means that I'm not actually sure how often I would do them - it's a long way to go for say a 2hr track night. Although they do a handful of open full days which would be more worthwhile - these are rare for the weekend so it's always days off work, etc.

With motorsport it was more of an event. Roll in on the Friday and camp up until the Sunday. It felt more worth the drive.

At least you have a trailer and comfortable tow car/van. Try driving a tricked out MR2 hundreds of miles across country then driving 8 hours on track, and then hundreds of miles across country back home its truly exhausting.

Quote from: JB21 on July 11, 2023, 12:38At least you have a trailer and comfortable tow car/van. Try driving a tricked out MR2 hundreds of miles across country then driving 8 hours on track, and then hundreds of miles across country back home its truly exhausting.

Exactly the reason I don't have a stripped interior and have things like Apple CarPlay, adjustable damping etc.

I did a 660 mile round trip to Blyton Park, numerous laps too, and it was perfectly acceptable.

Compromise? Yes.
Worth the compromise? Absolutely.

Quote from: JB21 on July 11, 2023, 12:38At least you have a trailer and comfortable tow car/van. Try driving a tricked out MR2 hundreds of miles across country then driving 8 hours on track, and then hundreds of miles across country back home its truly exhausting.

Absolutely the reason I decided to take car off the road. It was road legal, but was too firm and too stripped out to be any use on the road. No power steering, no ABS, no cabin fans, poor brakes when cold, hard sided track tyres that do the minimum to comply with an E mark, etc, etc.

I have a trailer so no point in keeping it road legal. It was horrible to drive as a road car - but after competitive Motorsport - road driving gives me very little joy or pleasure. Even in a good fast road car, it just can't recreate the thrill of being in a race.

You don't half pay for it though  :o

Trackdays for me are the right balance. Appreciate it's not the same for everyone.

Quote from: AJRFulton on July 11, 2023, 13:20Absolutely the reason I decided to take car off the road. It was road legal, but was too firm and too stripped out to be any use on the road. No power steering, no ABS, no cabin fans, poor brakes when cold, hard sided track tyres that do the minimum to comply with an E mark, etc, etc.

I have a trailer so no point in keeping it road legal. It was horrible to drive as a road car - but after competitive Motorsport - road driving gives me very little joy or pleasure. Even in a good fast road car, it just can't recreate the thrill of being in a race.

I'm looking to get a tow bar fitted to my 330d and hire a trailer for this reason. I hate driving on the road full stop, even in a comfortable exec car, but i especially hate driving in some crazy firm tin can that screams at you from behind for hours on end.

Quote from: Alex Knight on July 11, 2023, 14:41You don't half pay for it though  :o

Trackdays for me are the right balance. Appreciate it's not the same for everyone.

I enjoy track days. I think having anything other than a dedicated track only car would feel - dare I say - boring. To use an analogy, I get the same feeling having went up a few 4000m+ mountains in the Alps - however since doing that - going hiking in Scotland now feels like a nice day out, rather than any achievement going up a Munro. I dare say if I went up higher mountains the same would happen....

However being able to go around track in competition with myself only, with no pressure (and expense) of getting into a track car arms race..... I think at this point in time that is going to work better for me. I might get bored though..... I might start enjoying it again.... I don't know.

Quote from: JB21 on July 11, 2023, 15:19I'm looking to get a tow bar fitted to my 330d and hire a trailer for this reason. I hate driving on the road full stop, even in a comfortable exec car, but i especially hate driving in some crazy firm tin can that screams at you from behind for hours on end.

It's the storage of the trailer that is the problem for most people I guess. If you can store one, I'd always say buy one. Not much goes wrong with them - and the Brian James trailers especially - once they hit £1200ish they just never lose value from that. My trailer is 28yrs old. Other than a wee brake overhaul and putting some boards on it - it's been fine.

I'm fortunate that my parents live on a small farm so storage has never been the issue.

I also absolutely hate road driving the older I get - doesn't matter the car or road - nicer cars make it more tolerable but I can't ever imagine going out on a road to drive for fun these days.

Quote from: AJRFulton on July 11, 2023, 15:46I can't ever imagine going out on a road to drive for fun these days.

Over here in most parts of interior Andalucía and also in Estramadura the secondary and rural roads are a joy. Good tarmac winding through varied countryside and very, véry little traffic.
To rekindle your fun in driving it´s worth a road trip holliday and apart from start/finish no need to prebook lodgings (bar August).

I hope you can resolve the issues and fall back in love with the car, maybe  track days or sprint events is the way forward.

I'm at point where do I completely gut my car and have a track car, but then I'll loose the ability to go for Sunday morning blast and the look of shock when a little scruffy yellow 20 year car keeps pace with more modern expensive machinery.

I strongly believe these cars provide vfm up to a point, but good second engines and gearboxes are becoming harder to find.

My advice would be similar to that mentioned previously, find a good used engine, strip off all the race car engine stuff and go back to basics, enjoy the car for few track sessions, build your confidence in its mechanical reliability.

This is the kiss for death for mine, but I run mine hard, not at race levels but at least once or twice on a drive I'm bouncing off the limiter, it's a standard very very low mileage engine with the only engine mods ultra light flywheel, come air filter mod, billet oil pump gears, big sump and an oil cooler, I've even switched back from an EMU black until I can get it mapped by RRR. But it is still a hoot to drive and puts a smile on my face and is reliable.

I think the next thing on my list of purchases is a trailer which will fit in my garage.

I'm back fit again having completed my rehab from the spinal fracture. Strength is back to where it was, but at 40yrs old now - the flexibility will never come back.

After the last engine failure I had taken 6mths off all things cars, and got my thrills from a few visits to the mountains and doing Via Ferratas, trying to build back strength and fitness.

Finally got around to working on the car this weekend. I do love how easy it is to drop an engine out of an MR2, even without an engine hoist. An IKEA trolley is very useful! 2.5hrs doing that by myself, without rushing and with a hangover. However there is a bit of cheat with the bulkhead hatch.

Going to start stripping the engine this week to try and understand what failed.

I've no debris in the drained oils and the coolant looks fine too. Oil was still golden.

(https://i.ibb.co/xsgm4Lz/IMG-20231210-185538.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xsgm4Lz)

(https://i.ibb.co/BNs9zmp/IMG-20231210-185123.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BNs9zmp)

(https://i.ibb.co/j9NyxVc/IMG-20231210-185008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j9NyxVc)

(https://i.ibb.co/PgYJ0bw/IMG-20231210-185542.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PgYJ0bw)

Not sure where I go from here though. I've lost all trust in the 2ZZ as a race capable engine. However it's important to understand what failed, so....

Am in the same position as you with engines. My rebuilt engine is out and on a stand after having spun a bearing on number 4 . hope to take head and timing cover off next week end, Hope i can see what went wrong....

Glad to hear you're back after all that time off for recovery!

Being under the understanding that you cannot fully rebuild a 2ZZ due to the cylinder lining,it does sound like the engine options these days are narrowing down to the 2AR or K20.. both with their pitfalls and additional costs, but no idea what other options you have for the power levels you're accustomed to. Oh.. I suppose there is the 1.8T VAG option from Stavtech..

Quote from: KRAMSNEHPETS on December 10, 2023, 20:18Am in the same position as you with engines. My rebuilt engine is out and on a stand after having spun a bearing on number 4 . hope to take head and timing cover off next week end, Hope i can see what went wrong....

A sp8n bearing is usually down to oil starvation. Unless there was insufficient oil clearance, which you won't be able to measure now the thing has spun.  Were you running a fully baffled sump?

 I suppose there is the 1.8T VAG option from Stavtech..


[/quote]
Thats what my apprentice is looking into for for his mr2..

Concerns with the 1.8 20VT is the weight, and it's more top heavy. I think it's potentially a cracking engine for the road though. I had an S3 years ago, and really rated the engine.

Not sure what I'll do.

If it were me, it'd be K20/K24 all day long.

Quote from: Alex Knight on December 11, 2023, 13:59If it were me, it'd be K20/K24 all day long.

It's the most likely way I'll go.

Far more proven engine for track

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 11, 2023, 12:43Concerns with the 1.8 20VT is the weight, and it's more top heavy. I think it's potentially a cracking engine for the road though. I had an S3 years ago, and really rated the engine.

Not sure what I'll do.

Interestingly they did highlight this point, whilst it is more top heavy, the engine itself sits lower in the engine bay, closer to the firewall and is a more compact block. Perhaps this would be enough to offset it?

And although it is very unlikely that anyone tracking an mr2 is going to be using the original exhaust system, as a 'like for like' swap with the 1zz and 1.8T, I think the masses would be rather similar due to the exhaust weight savings etc. I imagine the gearbox for the 1.8T is anything but lightweight though.

They said that they recently did some testing of the weights to compare them in their entirety because of the lack of true information out there. Will be interesting to see what their findings were when they upload the results to YT.

^agree that k20/k24 is absolutely the motorsport way to go though if you have the patience and capability to carry out that swap

Anyone who puts a VAG engine in the ZZW30 chassis needs banning from this forum with immediate affect! Its like fitting big fake t*ts to a Peregrine Falcon.

Haven't opened the engine yet.

I did unplug the lift solenoid and the back of the solenoid came away in my hand. The solenoids snapped in 2.

Not sure when this would have happened, as lift was engaging up until the failure.

Would the snapping of the solenoid in any way effect the oiling?

Presume you mean affected not effected, but no, I highly doubt it.

Is there any part of the solenoid left in the engine?

Quote from: Alex Knight on December 11, 2023, 20:03Presume you mean affected not effected, but no, I highly doubt it.

Is there any part of the solenoid left in the engine?

Yeah. The top of the solenoid is still in the engine. It cannot go anywhere though, but wondering can it stop oil getting anywhere? I don't think it can as it's regulating oil pressure to the rockers, rather than a proper oiling path way. Oil should still get there regardless of solenoid failing.

I am still think this is a bottom end failure, but this solenoid must have snapped very close to the time the car went bang..... And that's a lot of coincidence.

Watching back the videos. Lift never engaged on the final straight before the knock started, it doesn't engage after knocking starts either, but lift had always engaged prior to that. I can't properly hear in the cabin with helmet and earplugs in.

The fact I've found this is making me suspicious. It's an odd coincidence that lift stops working, presumably due to the solenoid physically snapping, then within about 15 seconds my engine starts knocking.

Guess opening it up will reveal all.

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 11, 2023, 20:08Yeah. The top of the solenoid is still in the engine. It cannot go anywhere though, but wondering can it stop oil getting anywhere? I don't think it can as it's regulating oil pressure to the rockers, rather than a proper oiling path way. Oil should still get there regardless of solenoid failing.

I am still think this is a bottom end failure, but this solenoid must have snapped very close to the time the car went bang..... And that's a lot of coincidence.

Watching back the videos. Lift never engaged on the final straight before the knock started, it doesn't engage after knocking starts either, but lift had always engaged prior to that. I can't properly hear in the cabin with helmet and earplugs in.

The fact I've found this is making me suspicious. It's an odd coincidence that lift stops working, presumably due to the solenoid physically snapping, then within about 15 seconds my engine starts knocking.

Guess opening it up will reveal all.

Cant see that being the issue TBH. I've done a session with a failed VVLTI solenoid, obviously lift doesn't kick in and the rev limit is reduced to 7k rpm. Oil is still circulating around the cams and engine.

Quote from: JB21 on December 12, 2023, 09:37Cant see that being the issue TBH. I've done a session with a failed VVLTI solenoid, obviously lift doesn't kick in and the rev limit is reduced to 7k rpm. Oil is still circulating around the cams and engine.

Only thing I can think of, is that when it has physically snapped and some debris has broken off and into the oil system. Although cannot really think what could break, as it's surely just a spring loaded rod.

However...... I still have the filter gauze in (I know some remove them) - does that come before or after the solenoid in oil flow? Even if there was debris from it snapping, it should have caught it.

Also confused as to how it's managed to snap into 2.

Took me a while but got through all 12 pages of this blog during my lunch break.

Mightily impressed with how you handled and are continuing to handle all the curveballs and glad the physical recovery has gone well.

Interested to see what power plant you go with next. Ever considered bike engine? There's a widebody hayabusa engined race car in NZ/Aus I believe. Not sure who would be able to do this in the Uk.

https://youtu.be/MWQ1-yZpoZg?si=xChjNhDLYQxq3H_A

https://youtu.be/JzkX31GiTYs?si=ATMcU2OJuNxNWVe4

https://youtu.be/Pkkr4QyJ5oU?si=o5T2pItsRfvt_CwY

Finally got around to getting the engine on the stand and getting the sump off.

The distinctive burnt oil smell was a give away, then the shards in the sump and the blackened and rainbowed steel on #1 big end confirmed it. Looks like a spun bearing.

The heat damage will likely have rendered the crank useless and I'd be shocked if the cylinder has escaped undamaged. I'd bet a lot this block is fubar.

(https://i.ibb.co/CvtFKSH/IMG-20231219-212021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CvtFKSH)

Now the question is...... Why do I keep getting bearing failures on #1? I've had them on OEM engines and on built engines. 3rd time it's happened to me and must be about the 10th instance I know of on a track only car.

No logic for this one, it failed on a left hander, brand new OEM bottom end. Baffled sump with plenty of oil in there. I can understand right handers as the oil is being pulled away from the pick up, but left handers.... It's being pulled towards it.


(https://i.ibb.co/ZYt9PrP/IMG-20231219-212006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZYt9PrP)

Its impossible to know if all these engines failed for the same reason or they could all be for different reasons with a common cause,  ive heard of many 2zz fails on track but usually tired well abused engines so to be expected especially on such a high revving motor, the high revs puts a lot of strain on everything and there is a great steve morris engines on ytube which shows the difference revs makes to strain on internals,  i think  its clear the 2zz is not for you i would just cut your losses and save anymore heartache and switch to a different engine.

I think if it was me i would consider throwing a good 1zz lump in there as thats the easy/cheap swap, then get some seat time in the car see if same issues occur, hopefully not so you can enjoy the rest of car for awhile while you ponder what to do next.

Whatever you do dont use that oil cooler again throw it away, im sure its a big part of your problems ;)

Good luck whichever way you go :)

Yeah if I'm doing track days or sprints there is no need for the cooler.

Although the 1ZZ limits my options what I can do. It's not got the power to compete if I want to do that again.

I didnt mean dont use a oilcooler, just dont use the one you have there with bits of engine inside it :)  as ive mentioned before its best practice to NEVER reuse an oil cooler from a engine thats lets go as you can never guarantee to get all the bits out, some get lucky and they stay in cooler but its just not worth the risk, ive seen it a few times in the Evo scene i used to be part of, everyone that reused the cooler after flushing it best they could had engine issues again.

Lower power with the 1zz yes but hopefully you could beat on it all day long without issues and have some seat time try to gain time elsewhere, with the aftermarket ecu/decent mapper and breathing mods i dont think it would be that far behind your restricted 2zz setup, also its going to be a lot faster than a blown up 2zz :D

I would also question the tune on the 2zz setup which is another common part to all the engine issues, i think read somewhere one here he was using overfueling to restrict top end power and help cool the engine?, that could well of diluted the oil/lubrication etc,  if you have not already and you still have some i would get oil analysed to see if its heavy on fuel.

Quote from: thetyrant on December 21, 2023, 08:39I didnt mean dont use a oilcooler, just dont use the one you have there with bits of engine inside it :)  as ive mentioned before its best practice to NEVER reuse an oil cooler from a engine thats lets go as you can never guarantee to get all the bits out, some get lucky and they stay in cooler but its just not worth the risk, ive seen it a few times in the Evo scene i used to be part of, everyone that reused the cooler after flushing it best they could had engine issues again.

Lower power with the 1zz yes but hopefully you could beat on it all day long without issues and have some seat time try to gain time elsewhere, with the aftermarket ecu/decent mapper and breathing mods i dont think it would be that far behind your restricted 2zz setup, also its going to be a lot faster than a blown up 2zz :D

I would also question the tune on the 2zz setup which is another common part to all the engine issues, i think read somewhere one here he was using overfueling to restrict top end power and help cool the engine?, that could well of diluted the oil/lubrication etc,  if you have not already and you still have some i would get oil analysed to see if its heavy on fuel.

I used to have that mapped in as cooling was such an issue on the engine on 20-25 minute races. It did help but obviously with risk.

Although this engine didn't have that mapped in as was only sprinting, so cooling wasn't an issue.

Cooling was something I do struggle with in the 2ZZ, especially on >10 minutes of hot laps with no cool down laps. Progressively did things to help this - Oil cooler, big front radiator, cooling additives, wider side ducts, opening up the bonnet flaps to draw air - only helped a small bit but still had problems with oil temps peaking over 140°C. The shorter formats were fine with oil staying ~130°c, but that is a couple of hot laps then cool off for a lap and go again. I've had the issue with multiple engines.

The more I write down the more I realize the 2ZZ probably just isn't capable of reliably doing what I'm asking of it.

" The more I write down the more I realize the 2ZZ probably just isn't capable of reliably doing what I'm asking of it."

Somewhere there is a siren with a red flashing light going off and @Alex Knight  will be along shortly to defend the 2ZZ's honour  ;)

I do wonder if it's worth a consult with @tommyzoom99  on their version of the 1zz...

@jvanzyl I will defend MY 2ZZ to the death, though I'm obviously not unaware of the reported failures on track. I can only speak to my experiences, but my engine has been the most reliable of any car I have had, ever. And that includes daily drivers.

But... as soon as I read the 130-140C oil temperatures above, across multiple engine failures, I immediately put 2 and 2 together. To me, this is very obviously your issue. Those temperatures are literally catastrophically high to me.

Tbf Alex has been telling me to k20 for about 2yrs.

2ZZ is a really good engine but there's a difference between road, track and race use, with each stepping up.

Quote from: Alex Knight on December 22, 2023, 13:19@jvanzyl I will defend MY 2ZZ to the death, though I'm obviously not unaware of the reported failures on track. I can only speak to my experiences, but my engine has been the most reliable of any car I have had, ever. And that includes daily drivers.

But... as soon as I read the 130-140C oil temperatures above, across multiple engine failures, I immediately put 2 and 2 together. To me, this is very obviously your issue. Those temperatures are literally catastrophically high to me.

I agree they are hot, although not untypical. The millers NT+ says it's good to there, but it's stretching the limits.

Water temperature is +90°.

Had temperature trouble with OEM and built engines. Various temp sensors and gauges. With and without oil coolers. With OEM radiators and with bigger motorsport radiator. With OEM ducts and with enlarged ducts. With water based and waterless coolants. With thermostat and without thermostat. With Fuchs and Millers oils. Each improvement makes it better, but it still creeps up eventually.

Didn't realise you were peaking over 140°c oil temps, that's insane with a cooler and is surly the issue.

For reference my non oil cooler 2zz can run for 20+ minutes at 10 tenths and it never reach 130°c. All I have is a huge mishimoto radiator.

I have a thought/ question. Is there a difference between the water pumps found in a celica sourced engine vs a Lotus engine? Same goes for the thermostats?

Quote from: JB21 on December 23, 2023, 08:26Didn't realise you were peaking over 140°c oil temps, that's insane with a cooler and is surly the issue.

For reference my non oil cooler 2zz can run for 20+ minutes at 10 tenths and it never reach 130°c. All I have is a huge mishimoto radiator.

I also have a huge mishimoto radiator (probably same one)

Water cooling has never been too much of an issue though. The radiator upgrade did bring water temps down 3-4°c, but did little for oil temps.

Quote from: jvanzyl on December 23, 2023, 09:34I have a thought/ question. Is there a difference between the water pumps found in a celica sourced engine vs a Lotus engine? Same goes for the thermostats?

I believe that there are two options: metal and plastic - though I can't tell you which is used in which application.