Continuing my aging 4x100 car garage theme.
2000 ZZW30 with an EP3 K20A2 engine (and ECU) making 200 Flywheel HP.
I bought it off Blackcat motorsports - Martyn made a rather nice exhaust for it. The chap who did the conversion itself is a mate of his called Alister.
The car's kind of been ignored and needs some loving OCD attention to get sorted the way I like it.
Already done..
Battery died. Put in a lifepo4 - Apparently the K20A2 is about 15 KGs heavier than the ZZ1FE, but the lifepo, which sits in the standard battery location right next to the engine, is more or less 1KG - most Lead Acid batteries weigh in at 10-15KG so.. I may have restored the balance of the car in this process.
Headlights replaced with the EU spec LHD ones.
Replaced the drive shafts with properly over-engineered Type MR ones (the chap who did the original conversion did this for me since he wanted to reuse the old shafts).
Put in a momo hub so I can run my usual selection of non-airbag steering wheels.
There'll be a sort of continuous improvement since there are all sorts of rattles and the drivers seat is worn and and and.
Actual Plans:
Urgently: Refresh the Brakes (including, if needed, calliper rebuilds - I have all the pads and disks to go) then get it through the Spanish importation process, with a few tricks. Complete fluid flushes too.
Short-Term: Sort out the Suspension - Was leaning towards Meisters. But having now driven the car on its standard suspension I can start to have a real opinion.
Long-Term: Without actually opening it up, the K20A2 can be brought to about 250HP at the fly. This requires a new intake mani, throttle body, injectors and ecu (in addition to the exhaust, which is already a work of art thanks to Martyn). I'd also get a lighter fly, stronker clutch and an LSD added.
And some visual improvements.
Comments:
Holy cow did Toyota make an interesting car. It's above and beyond a MK2.5 MX5 in handling. Feels like a racecar tamed for daily use. The steering is like cutting butter with a scalpel.
And as everyone knows K20A2 is a remarkable engine. It VTECs like hell but idles at 900rpm like a little puppy.
Understeery without the weight of the spare tyre up front.
Credits:
MOCA2CV for the inspiration. My friend Dave who kept it for a month or so at his place. And Alexey (thunderwoodracing) for .. more things than I can possibly list.
I also enquired about this car, got no response on Facebook. Done a bit of digging on the donor Civic EP3 which was a high mileage track car, the MR2 itself seemed to have been stood around for a long too with very limited mileage between MOT's.
Did you buy for a decent price?
If tracking then coilovers CAN make sense.
If its primarily a road car stock is better maybe even koni inserts.
I'm building a K20 MR2 myself, it's a lot of blood, sweat, tears and money! Though I did strip it to a bare shell before the build, which I will forever regret!
There is no way I'd sell it for less than the price of a decent S2000, which is circa £10k. It's just as fast, just as reliable and won't rust.
I'd be interested to try out a K-Swapped MR2 at some point. It seems like a lot of effort and expense for not much more gains over a 2ZZ. I've driven a K20 S1 Elise and it was fantastic, but that was comparing it to a K-Series. I'm sure there is merit to it, otherwise no-one would do it but I'd be interested to see for myself.
Mrs Pixel had a EP3 Type R for a few years. Engine was awesome, sadly couldn't be said about the rest of the car.
Quote from: Pixel on June 2, 2021, 10:18Mrs Pixel had a EP3 Type R for a few years. Engine was awesome, sadly couldn't be said about the rest of the car.
I was talking to the owner of a latest model Type R (FK8) a few days ago. He'd had it 3 plus years, seriously unimpressed, lots of minor but niggly faults and issues, vehicle management got in the way of driving. He blamed it on recent Honda penny pinching, he was getting all his goodies stripped of it and original parts reinstalled before selling it. His advice was don't touch one from 2015 onwards.
Quote from: lukeydoo on June 2, 2021, 09:37Though I did strip it to a bare shell before the build, which I will forever regret!
Would you expand upon that please....
Quote from: JohnGee on June 2, 2021, 11:20His advice was don't touch one from 2015 onwards.
Mate of mine bought an FK(?) Type R brand new in 2018. I drove it at Castle Combe back to back with a Focus RS and it was a good car but not a patch on the Ford. The biggest problem is that it's a really good car but it's not a Type R... Type R's are light weight, raw and high revving NA screamers... This was heavy, turbo, luxurious (to a point) and redlined at 6k... Great car, but in my opinion not a Type R.
Only drove it on track, didn't spend any real time with it but it was enough for me to say not for me.
Quote from: Pixel on June 2, 2021, 12:58Quote from: JohnGee on June 2, 2021, 11:20His advice was don't touch one from 2015 onwards.
Mate of mine bought an FK(?) Type R brand new in 2018. I drove it at Castle Combe back to back with a Focus RS and it was a good car but not a patch on the Ford. The biggest problem is that it's a really good car but it's not a Type R... Type R's are light weight, raw and high revving NA screamers... This was heavy, turbo, luxurious (to a point) and redlined at 6k... Great car, but in my opinion not a Type R.
Only drove it on track, didn't spend any real time with it but it was enough for me to say not for me.
They're considered to be excellent FWD hot hatches.
I've not driven any of them but agree that the current model isn't in keeping with what the type R is about.
That's really down to emmisons and them already getting the most they can out of an NA 4 pot IMHO.
I drove an FK8 Type R when doing my ARDS test in late 2017. I found it very barge like on track - but then.... other than a few vans, I haven't owned a FWD car since I was 18-19 (I'm 38 now), so other than the odd hire car - I guess I have forgotten how to drive them.
Probably not a fair assessment given I am not used to FWD then was suddenly thrust into a high powered FWD car on a track - and expected to demonstrate the ability to drive quickly (and safely) with only a couple of laps to get used to a very different car and driving style from what I've been used to for 20yrs. The Type-R is clearly not barge like, given 25-30 laps with it I'm sure I'd have adapted.
Incidentally, what is the weight of a K20 + Box vs the weight of a 2ZZ + Box.
I believe the K20 is a better engine, and has better aftermarket support, more specialist knowledge, etc - but what puts me off one is I've heard they are 25-30kg heavier and not sure how this would effect the balance of a track only car. If my car was road+track or road only - I'd consider it.
Ive driven a friends K20 Mr2 and its a perfect fit, in my opinion. This was RBC/K100 and some other bits so was pushing more power, I want to say around 220? The engine and box are sublime and really do complement the car.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 2, 2021, 14:24I drove an FK8 Type R when doing my ARDS test in late 2017. I found it very barge like on track - but then.... other than a few vans, I haven't owned a FWD car since I was 18-19 (I'm 38 now), so other than the odd hire car - I guess I have forgotten how to drive them.
Probably not a fair assessment given I am not used to FWD then was suddenly thrust into a high powered FWD car on a track - and expected to demonstrate the ability to drive quickly (and safely) with only a couple of laps to get used to a very different car and driving style from what I've been used to for 20yrs. The Type-R is clearly not barge like, given 25-30 laps with it I'm sure I'd have adapted.
Incidentally, what is the weight of a K20 + Box vs the weight of a 2ZZ + Box.
I believe the K20 is a better engine, and has better aftermarket support, more specialist knowledge, etc - but what puts me off one is I've heard they are 25-30kg heavier and not sure how this would effect the balance of a track only car. If my car was road+track or road only - I'd consider it.
Did you have the FK8 in full track/race mode for the test? Heard they're quite sedate in comfort/normal mode.
I was similar to you driving my mates ep3 recently, it just felt odd after driving a 330d and the 2zz for a few years. Just felt blunt if that makes sense.
Not sure the K20 extra weight would make that much difference to the dynamic of the mk3, you'd just fit a light weight battery, intake, exhaust etc. This should bring it back close to the OE weight distribution. I'd love one, and I'm very tempted to just build one once the latest 2zz is dead. There's just so much support for them and 250hp is very easily achieved. That extra 50-60hp would make the mk3 feel like a different car again, a different league over a 2zz I'd say. I think the gear ratio is shorter as well, which would help a lot as the C6* has an odd ratio for the tracks I do.
Quote from: JB21 on June 2, 2021, 16:02Quote from: AJRFulton on June 2, 2021, 14:24I drove an FK8 Type R when doing my ARDS test in late 2017. I found it very barge like on track - but then.... other than a few vans, I haven't owned a FWD car since I was 18-19 (I'm 38 now), so other than the odd hire car - I guess I have forgotten how to drive them.
Probably not a fair assessment given I am not used to FWD then was suddenly thrust into a high powered FWD car on a track - and expected to demonstrate the ability to drive quickly (and safely) with only a couple of laps to get used to a very different car and driving style from what I've been used to for 20yrs. The Type-R is clearly not barge like, given 25-30 laps with it I'm sure I'd have adapted.
Incidentally, what is the weight of a K20 + Box vs the weight of a 2ZZ + Box.
I believe the K20 is a better engine, and has better aftermarket support, more specialist knowledge, etc - but what puts me off one is I've heard they are 25-30kg heavier and not sure how this would effect the balance of a track only car. If my car was road+track or road only - I'd consider it.
Did you have the FK8 in full track/race mode for the test? Heard they're quite sedate in comfort/normal mode.
I was similar to you driving my mates ep3 recently, it just felt odd after driving a 330d and the 2zz for a few years. Just felt blunt if that makes sense.
Not sure the K20 extra weight would make that much difference to the dynamic of the mk3, you'd just fit a light weight battery, intake, exhaust etc. This should bring it back close to the OE weight distribution. I'd love one, and I'm very tempted to just build one once the latest 2zz is dead. There's just so much support for them and 250hp is very easily achieved. That extra 50-60hp would make the mk3 feel like a different car again, a different league over a 2zz I'd say. I think the gear ratio is shorter as well, which would help a lot as the C6* has an odd ratio for the tracks I do.
FK8 would have been in full mode as the traction control was off. I never played much with it as it was a driving assessment and I just wanted my race licence rather than experiment with driving techniques.
Obviously you are not pushing 100% in the ARPS test as the instructor is concerned about safety, predictability and confidence in that order. However you do sort of have to demonstrate you are confident enough to drive at speed, although 7 or 8/10ths.
My main cars have always been RWD or (occasionally) AWD. I've little experience in FWD and had in 20yrs driving had never driven anything resembling a performance FWD. The dynamic of driving RWD is natural to me and 6 laps in a high performance FWD isn't enough to adapt - hence probably being too aggressive on the throttle trying to find the limit and understeering and backing off - thus the car felt understeery.
I would love a go in a race prepped K20 MR2 just to see how it compared. I just think there are so many more development options going that route.
The weight of a k20 will make very little difference imho.
I still think my V6 handles like a go kart and I've been in 3.5L mr2s with the e153 gearbox. That handled like it was on rails.
If anything the extra weight makes it more rear biased which I like.
I think this...
Quote from: Pixel on June 2, 2021, 10:18It seems like a lot of effort and expense for not much more gains over a 2ZZ.
is covered by this...
Quote from: JB21 on June 2, 2021, 16:02There's just so much support for them and 250hp is very easily achieved. That extra 50-60hp would make the mk3 feel like a different car again, a different league over a 2zz I'd say.
You're looking at big bucks to take a N/A 2ZZ up to 250bhp with a decent chunk of torque. If that's the goal I think the K20 would be the better starting point and would likely work out more cost-effective and reliable in the long run. From what I've seen 2ZZ swapped Mk3s rarely make the claimed 190bhp unless they've got the breathing sorted, which the usual hacked up manifold won't allow. Add the right ECU, uprated oil pump, baffled sump etc and the 2ZZ isn't as cheap as some make out. But if you've no intention to modify the engine further, the 2ZZ swap is still so simple and comparatively cheap, it's a no brainer.
Quote from: atlex on June 1, 2021, 10:212000 ZZW30 with an EP3 K20A2 engine (and ECU) making 200 Flywheel HP.
Keen to know more about the swap parts if you know of them? Is the standard Type R ECU currently installed? If so, do you have a functioning dash and immobiliser?
Some of the largest costs of the K20 swap are the wiring loom and Hondata ECU software to integrate with the Toyota systems. If these obstacles could be overcome with other, cheaper means, it would make the swap more attractive.
If you are looking for big power then just turbo the 1zz.
I've only been in one 2zz that felt really quick and that had a rotrex.
Never had the pleasure of a k20 but doubt it's actually any quicker than a 1zz with a few grand of turbo hanging off it.
Keep adding power actually detracts from the whole experience. I've got 255 whp and in a car with 15" wheels with no traction control its too much for the road.
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 2, 2021, 22:20If you are looking for big power then just turbo the 1zz.
I've only been in one 2zz that felt really quick and that had a rotrex.
Never had the pleasure of a k20 but doubt it's actually any quicker than a 1zz with a few grand of turbo hanging off it.
Keep adding power actually detracts from the whole experience. I've got 255 whp and in a car with 15" wheels with no traction control its too much for the road.
Well, though not sure about speed, I am sure that K20 is as reliable as it gets (potentially a baffled sump is all that it will need). It will not have the torque of a turbo, but that engine is almost as good as it gets for mass production and JDM engines are 220+ stock, which for most real life applications is more than enough.
Talking about big power, if NA tuning is not sufficient (which probably would be) turbocharged K20/K24 are on a different league.
Also, if my memory does not play tricks on me, 2ZZ was meant to compete B18C not K20.
And with that being said,
@atlex enjoy this fantastic combination and put a nice video with nicely captured sound!
K20 is in a different league as far as I'm concerned. 1zz and 2zz are kind of "cute". K20 is when 4-pots start to get serious. Serious design, strength, performance, reliability. Not without their issues but the sheer number of massive power k20s out there shows how solid the platform is.
Great decision to go K20. Flexible as well.
Bonus as well is that it fits in the bay like a 1zz. Exhaust back.
Looking forward to this build.
Quote from: Gibla on June 2, 2021, 11:52Quote from: lukeydoo on June 2, 2021, 09:37Though I did strip it to a bare shell before the build, which I will forever regret!
Would you expand upon that please....
https://imgur.com/a/wEI6FCN
I started with a low mileage MR-S. Stripped it, painted it in 2K Epoxy and Raptor. Removed the ABS and added a prop valve. Removed the power steering and added a welded pinion to do a proper job. Added a race heater which runs with coolant and ducted it to the windscreen. Blasted and painted all suspension components and subframe. Polybushed it all. Rebuilt all callipers and hubs with new bearings. Trimmed out an excess weight by removing door crash bars etc. Added a tigged cage with minimum of bars to not out extra weight in and tied to rear suspension (done by a local firm that create VW race cars). New clutch, timing chain and tensioner on the K20a2 which came out of my brother's car (and was previously mine). Added in the extra MitchAutoparts gearbox mount to improve security of the engine. Wired an immobiliser delete to use the OEM ECU for now.
Since beginning the project, I now have a young family and a demanding new job so I'm just getting it to the starting, driving stage and may sell it to someone to put the cherry on top (expensive manifold, Skunk2 Pro intake manifold, LSD in the gear box, Hondata etc.) I did it more for the experience of building my own car than for the enjoyment of the final product - I never realised the cost in money and sanity!
Quote from: lukeydoo on June 3, 2021, 06:22Quote from: Gibla on June 2, 2021, 11:52Quote from: lukeydoo on June 2, 2021, 09:37Though I did strip it to a bare shell before the build, which I will forever regret!
Would you expand upon that please....
https://imgur.com/a/wEI6FCN
I started with a low mileage MR-S. Stripped it, painted it in 2K Epoxy and Raptor. Removed the ABS and added a prop valve. Removed the power steering and added a welded pinion to do a proper job. Added a race heater which runs with coolant and ducted it to the windscreen. Blasted and painted all suspension components and subframe. Polybushed it all. Rebuilt all callipers and hubs with new bearings. Trimmed out an excess weight by removing door crash bars etc. Added a tigged cage with minimum of bars to not out extra weight in and tied to rear suspension (done by a local firm that create VW race cars). New clutch, timing chain and tensioner on the K20a2 which came out of my brother's car (and was previously mine). Added in the extra MitchAutoparts gearbox mount to improve security of the engine. Wired an immobiliser delete to use the OEM ECU for now.
Since beginning the project, I now have a young family and a demanding new job so I'm just getting it to the starting, driving stage and may sell it to someone to put the cherry on top (expensive manifold, Skunk2 Pro intake manifold, LSD in the gear box, Hondata etc.) I did it more for the experience of building my own car than for the enjoyment of the final product - I never realised the cost in money and sanity!
I think this deserves it's own reader's cars thread! Sounds epic! Especially interested to hear more about the system integration side of things.
Also, if you do plan on moving it on in future I'd be interested.
I've just finished my K swap and wow, Where else could you get this amount of performance and handling for this money ?
People are talking pros and cons, Horsepower etc....Is it bad that i'm chuffed that i've now got a dipstick i can read :)
Quote from: Bullit on June 4, 2021, 13:36I've just finished my K swap and wow, Where else could you get this amount of performance and handling for this money ?
People are talking pros and cons, Horsepower etc....Is it bad that i'm chuffed that i've now got a dipstick i can read :)
LOL!!! that alone is worth it! Well played sir
Quote from: Bullit on June 4, 2021, 13:36I've just finished my K swap and wow, Where else could you get this amount of performance and handling for this money ?
People are talking pros and cons, Horsepower etc....Is it bad that i'm chuffed that i've now got a dipstick i can read :)
Readers car thread for your build please! :)
Would be interested to see exactly what was needed to run the stock ecu (or ecus - Toyota and Honda)
There seems to be a few more of these around in the UK now with a couple of companies creating products to support the swap too. I wonder if the FN2 would be a good donor car vs the EP3 as these will probably become more common
Quote from: iower on June 4, 2021, 15:35Would be interested to see exactly what was needed to run the stock ecu (or ecus - Toyota and Honda)
There seems to be a few more of these around in the UK now with a couple of companies creating products to support the swap too. I wonder if the FN2 would be a good donor car vs the EP3 as these will probably become more common
You can use an Fn2 engine but you'd still need an ep3 engine loom.
Quote from: Bullit on June 4, 2021, 16:26Quote from: iower on June 4, 2021, 15:35Would be interested to see exactly what was needed to run the stock ecu (or ecus - Toyota and Honda)
There seems to be a few more of these around in the UK now with a couple of companies creating products to support the swap too. I wonder if the FN2 would be a good donor car vs the EP3 as these will probably become more common
You can use an Fn2 engine but you'd still need an ep3 engine loom.
Fn 2 has drive by wire and the manifold is RBC its touch and go if that would fit its stright out and long. i have done K24 and it is a very
simalar set up to a FN2 apart from the inlet manifold, you need and full loom inc charge harness and ep3 throttle body
My thread on here power ranger red is my k24 build. Any question let me know both me and my mate have k swaps
I have had 1zz driven a couple of 2zz and a 1zz turbo.
K is king
Quote from: iower on June 4, 2021, 15:35Would be interested to see exactly what was needed to run the stock ecu (or ecus - Toyota and Honda)
There seems to be a few more of these around in the UK now with a couple of companies creating products to support the swap too. I wonder if the FN2 would be a good donor car vs the EP3 as these will probably become more common
So like my car the fn2 is drive by wire as was my k24. So you need a ep3 harnes and charge harness and a ep3 throttle body. Ep3 engine unlike the fn2 has the better oil pump , the fn2 is a massive balanced shaft and I changed mine it's a popular mod
Quote from: Roj on June 2, 2021, 19:33Quote from: atlex on June 1, 2021, 10:212000 ZZW30 with an EP3 K20A2 engine (and ECU) making 200 Flywheel HP.
Keen to know more about the swap parts if you know of them? Is the standard Type R ECU currently installed? If so, do you have a functioning dash and immobiliser?
Some of the largest costs of the K20 swap are the wiring loom and Hondata ECU software to integrate with the Toyota systems. If these obstacles could be overcome with other, cheaper means, it would make the swap more attractive.
Boosted works harness £200 quid easy to wire in better then the monkey wrench and Mitches auto ones. You can k swap for a lot less than people think
Quote from: justinread72 on July 21, 2021, 20:59My thread on here power ranger red is my k24 build. Any question let me know both me and my mate have k swaps
I have had 1zz driven a couple of 2zz and a 1zz turbo.
K is king
V6 beats everything. The only thing the yanks got right. There really is no replacement for displacement.
Then you add a rotrex just to say it can be done.
Quote from: justinread72 on July 21, 2021, 21:06Quote from: Roj on June 2, 2021, 19:33Quote from: atlex on June 1, 2021, 10:212000 ZZW30 with an EP3 K20A2 engine (and ECU) making 200 Flywheel HP.
Keen to know more about the swap parts if you know of them? Is the standard Type R ECU currently installed? If so, do you have a functioning dash and immobiliser?
Some of the largest costs of the K20 swap are the wiring loom and Hondata ECU software to integrate with the Toyota systems. If these obstacles could be overcome with other, cheaper means, it would make the swap more attractive.
Boosted works harness £200 quid easy to wire in better then the monkey wrench and Mitches auto ones. You can k swap for a lot less than people think
Do you have full dash functionality with that harness?
I've got full dash functionality with the help of the MAP module.
I've now got a G4X on this car..
Did you get it on Spanish plates yet?
Quote from: Petrus on December 18, 2023, 20:09Did you get it on Spanish plates yet?
Yeah, I even with the K20 it managed to pass the import test. It'll be interesting trying to get it through the annual next year.. I might need to homologate some things like the coilovers (or just put coilover covers on them?!) and I will do the engine too.
The motor seems to be healthy - I got a very consistent compression test reading and it pulls hard. All the cylinders are between 158 and 165 PSI on my (always reads low) compression test gauge.
Quote from: atlex on December 22, 2023, 22:39Yeah, I even with the K20 it managed to pass the import test. It'll be interesting trying to get it through the annual next year.. I might need to homologate some things like the coilovers (or just put coilover covers on them?!) and I will do the engine too.
Well a HUGE congrats for the first hurdle. That can be a serious, sometimes impossible to pass, hurdle. Be PROUD of that!!!
It all depends on how it was put on the ficha tecnica upon first registration. Thát is their yard stick for your homologation conform car now.
From there it is fingers crossed about how good of if they even look at all.
Last time they did not even require me to pop the rear lid up.
Coil overs should indeed be noted in the ficha tecnica. If it is not, then cover the top and cross fingers.
The Roadsters are very few and far between so chances are that the testers never ever saw one so all that looks ok ... looks ok. Thus all frump plastic in, at least lóóking OEM.
As such it is important how it sounds. Too sporty and they will look at the exhaust at least so throttle it properly.
The will look at the tyre sizes very strictly. 3% leeway and that´s it.
Quote from: Petrus on December 23, 2023, 09:18Well a HUGE congrats for the first hurdle. That can be a serious, sometimes impossible to pass, hurdle. Be PROUD of that!!!
This was the 'moment in time' - the CAT needed a cleanup and country road blast.. https://www.instagram.com/p/CqTDYmKsbII/?img_index=1
I'm going to try homologate the whole lot with the motor and an itg intake tube thing.
BTW what do you do for spares around here ?
Quote from: atlex on December 23, 2023, 13:46BTW what do you do for spares around here ?
A mix of Toyota, after market and breakers. The 1ZZ-FE is very common. The K20 should not be much of an issue either albeit less common obviously.
The UK sources are Brexit. France and Poland have rare stuff too and pose no extra cost/delay. Also got some bits from the Netherlands; Ridearound.nl has or can get most JDM tuning stuff.
And got the bucket seats from Portugal, the Lexan windshield from Belgium.