Hello everyone. My car has been off the road for many months, but I am nearly at the point where it will be back on the road again. I'm thinking about having some fun and lowering it a bit. I did consider coilovers, but having read various posts about them here, it seems to be far from an ideal solution for the road, even if I am prepared to pay for the financial outlay. As with most things, there are clearly compromises to deliberate over. Therefore, I'm thinking that fitting lowering springs (Teins perhaps?) could be a good cheap way to get a taste of what the car is like lowered. I know they will probably cause premature wear on the standard dampers due to the stiffer spring rates, but I will reluctantly accept that, knowing that I will probably need to replace them before too long anyway.
My question is regarding geometry though, and I can't find an answer when I search for it. I know that a geometry setup is recommended after fitting lowering springs, but it seems to me that the changes that can be made are very limited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any camber adjustment front or rear as standard. Those cam plates at the rear that are sometimes referred to as camber adjusting plates look like they adjust toe in to me, not camber. Do people just accept the compromised handling and increased tyre wear? I want a car that is set up to ride well when it is going straight. Even if it can be adjusted, the linkages will be at a different place in their arc of movement, so the rate of change of camber will be different as the suspension moves. Similarly, even if front toe in is adjusted, surely excessive bump steer is likely due to the different arcs of the linkages? Do people just put up with this or are the effects not very noticeable in reality?
To clarify, the car is for reasonably spirited road riding, absolutely no track days, and the main reason for lowering is for looks. I'm not interested in extreme lowering or a very harsh ride.
You should not have any geometry problems with lowering springs. The drop is mild and the car might handle a little better because the lower center and because when you lower the car it will have some negative camber which is beneficial. The negative camber is not going to cause premature wear as long as the toe is corrected back to OEM specification.
As far as the ride goes it is very mild and closer to the OEM suspension because the springs are designed around the limitations of the damper and if it wasn't it would make handling worse.
In a nutshell the lowering springs are mostly for looks but they do help with the handling in a limited way so you should be fine without any bump steer that you find in other cars.
Thanks Dev. What is your setup?
Do others concur with this?
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 19:22Thanks Dev. What is your setup?
Do others concur with this?
Unless you drive with some crazy camber its going to be fine. Prior suspension mods I had KYB with TTE springs, rear camber was -1.2 and the car felt awesome, also the wear was quite okay. Did 1500 kms with -2.2 and the wear is also fine. This is road driving, no track days..
I concur with Dev.
I would add that new stock springs with fresh OEM dampers are very hard to better on our pot-hole ridden, speed-bump infested, roads.
When I refreshed my stock suspension I was amazed at how well set up this car was when it was brand new.
But, the cars do look better lowered, I've no doubt of that.
Thanks both of you. Nvy, was your rear camber angle a direct consequence of lowering or were you able to adjust it somehow? Carolyn, it does go to show that Toyota know what they are doing, which is reassuring! It goes to show that any modifications we make to our cars (suspension, engine tuning etc) are usually just a different compromise, rather than a no brainer improvement.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 20:04Thanks both of you. Nvy, was your rear camber angle a direct consequence of lowering or were you able to adjust it somehow? Carolyn, it does go to show that Toyota know what they are doing, which is reassuring! It goes to show that any modifications we make to our cars (suspension, engine tuning etc) are usually just a different compromise, rather than a no brainer improvement.
You can fit camber bolts and adjust the camber with OEM shocks. -1.2 was the best the guy could do at that time. I dont rly sweat much on these anymore. I decided that my car has way too many rare parts to wreck it on the track. So now is as close as OEM as it can be, ill maybe fit turbo kit and new seats and will call it for some time.
Quote from: Nvy on October 13, 2021, 20:19You can fit camber bolts and adjust the camber with OEM shocks. -1.2 was the best the guy could do at that time. I dont rly sweat much on these anymore. I decided that my car has way too many rare parts to wreck it on the track. So now is as close as OEM as it can be, ill maybe fit turbo kit and new seats and will call it for some time.
Where are camber bolts fitted? Do they adjust the position of the top of the strut or do they somehow move the position of the hub relative to the base of the strut?
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 20:36Quote from: Nvy on October 13, 2021, 20:19You can fit camber bolts and adjust the camber with OEM shocks. -1.2 was the best the guy could do at that time. I dont rly sweat much on these anymore. I decided that my car has way too many rare parts to wreck it on the track. So now is as close as OEM as it can be, ill maybe fit turbo kit and new seats and will call it for some time.
Where are camber bolts fitted? Do they adjust the position of the top of the strut or do they somehow move the position of the hub relative to the base of the strut?
2nd, try google for some clips.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 19:22Thanks Dev. What is your setup?
Do others concur with this?
I run with Tein SSP coilovers. They are aggressive but because they are researched and designed for the street they do dampen the road better than the OEM suspension and is a transformative experience for the entire car. They are not anywhere near the clumsy and harshness of the cheap Twainese budget products that are just stiff and give coilovers a negative reputation. They are not available anymore however the only other true street options are the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3 however they are expensive for a good reason.
There isn't any middle ground from lowering springs than a researched set if you want OEM like quality.
Quote from: Dev on October 13, 2021, 21:24I run with Tein SSP coilovers. They are aggressive but because they are researched and designed for the street they do dampen the road better than the OEM suspension and is a transformative experience for the entire car. They are not anywhere near the clumsy and harshness of the cheap Twainese budget products that are just stiff and give coilovers a negative reputation. They are not available anymore however the only other true street options are the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3 however they are expensive for a good reason.
There isn't any middle ground from lowering springs than a researched set if you want OEM like quality.
Interesting, thanks. Even budget springs would be quite a financial investment for me, so I think I'll stick with the cheap lowering springs "experiment" idea for now, but I'll keep those brands in mind for the future.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 21:31Quote from: Dev on October 13, 2021, 21:24I run with Tein SSP coilovers. They are aggressive but because they are researched and designed for the street they do dampen the road better than the OEM suspension and is a transformative experience for the entire car. They are not anywhere near the clumsy and harshness of the cheap Twainese budget products that are just stiff and give coilovers a negative reputation. They are not available anymore however the only other true street options are the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3 however they are expensive for a good reason.
There isn't any middle ground from lowering springs than a researched set if you want OEM like quality.
Interesting, thanks. Even budget springs would be quite a financial investment for me, so I think I'll stick with the cheap lowering springs "experiment" idea for now, but I'll keep those brands in mind for the future.
Which lowering springs are you considering?
Quote from: Nvy on October 13, 2021, 20:382nd, try google for some clips.
Is that the ones at the inboard end of the rearmost suspension linkages at the rear? If so, that's the ones I was referring to in my first post. They look like they would adjust toe-in to me, but perhaps they do indeed adjust camber as they are attached to the hubs lower that the drive shafts.
Quote from: Dev on October 13, 2021, 21:36Which lowering springs are you considering?
I'm only really at the casual looking "what if" stage, but the Tein S ones seem to be mentioned here quite a bit. I just want something that keeps the car level (it is a facelift 03 car) and doesn't lower it or affect ride too excessively.
Stock shocks and tein s springs here.
A quality geo will see you right.
No excess tyre wear, all good.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 21:42Quote from: Dev on October 13, 2021, 21:36Which lowering springs are you considering?
I'm only really at the casual looking "what if" stage, but the Tein S ones seem to be mentioned here quite a bit. I just want something that keeps the car level (it is a facelift 03 car) and doesn't lower it or affect ride too excessively.
The Teins would be fine. So would the other reputable companies that make lowering springs for this car because they have been researched.
Just keep in mind if your struts have miles on them the effect of lowering springs will unveil themselves and make things worse for you. Most usually refresh the struts with new KYB if you want the best experience.
Great, well opinions seem unanimous so far that lowering springs cause no discernible geometry problems. With a set of quality springs costing little more than a single replacement brake caliper (I've been replacing and refurbishing brake calipers etc recently) then I might as well just get a set and give it a go. Just one more question though...it looks like the camber adjustment bolt is on the rear only, so does that mean that there could still be non-adjustable excessive negative camber at the front after lowering?
Quote from: Dev on October 13, 2021, 21:52The Teins would be fine. So would the other reputable companies that make lowering springs for this car because they have been researched.
Just keep in mind if your struts have miles on them the effect of lowering springs will unveil themselves and make things worse for you. Most usually refresh the struts with new KYB if you want the best experience.
Yep, I was reading down this thread from the top & was wondering if anyone had picked up on new-springs-only.
Some think that the O/E shocks are past their best at 50k miles. I have a car in the 50's that needs them.
O/P, you may not know, but lowering springs could be bought from Toyota on the KYB struts. TRD?- not sure, but they were reputedly made by Eibach.
Quote from: Gaz mr-s on October 13, 2021, 22:22Yep, I was reading down this thread from the top & was wondering if anyone had picked up on new-springs-only.
Some think that the O/E shocks are past their best at 50k miles. I have a car in the 50's that needs them.
O/P, you may not know, but lowering springs could be bought from Toyota on the KYB struts. TRD?- not sure, but they were reputedly made by Eibach.
My car has (allegedly) only done about 40k miles and the struts seem ok at the moment, but it's an 18 year old car and I know all too well that what seems to work fine one day can suddenly fail the next day. I didn't know that about Toyata supplied springs + struts, thanks.
Quote from: Gaz mr-s on October 13, 2021, 22:22Quote from: Dev on October 13, 2021, 21:52The Teins would be fine. So would the other reputable companies that make lowering springs for this car because they have been researched.
Just keep in mind if your struts have miles on them the effect of lowering springs will unveil themselves and make things worse for you. Most usually refresh the struts with new KYB if you want the best experience.
Yep, I was reading down this thread from the top & was wondering if anyone had picked up on new-springs-only.
Some think that the O/E shocks are past their best at 50k miles. I have a car in the 50's that needs them.
O/P, you may not know, but lowering springs could be bought from Toyota on the KYB struts. TRD?- not sure, but they were reputedly made by Eibach.
Thats not uncommon. The OEM struts are only good for 45k miles from my experience and then after driving many examples they were finished also but the owner did not know what to look for.
The fault with the OEM is not when you are driving normally but when you are in mid-corner and cant feel the car due to mid corner float. For that brief amount of time the car is not adequately controlled by the struts that it makes it feel dangerous and therefore you slow down. Most owners drive this way and are often perplexed why some are able to drive faster around turns with authority when they fear the car thinking its a mid engine thing.
Judging for performance is very different than judging struts for a normal wearing commuter car with lazy suspension as it gets older.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 22:31My car has (allegedly) only done about 40k miles and the struts seem ok at the moment, but it's an 18 year old car and I know all too well that what seems to work fine one day can suddenly fail the next day. I didn't know that about Toyata supplied springs + struts, thanks.
Save your money until you can buy new struts & springs....two of us saying so.
Normally the cheapest place for struts is TCB (don't go to Toyota) Sometimes they are part of discount deals on ebay....probably the cheapest option.
I said Toyota supplied the springs (past tense)...I believe they were an option....in other words had official approval. Teins are most common choice nowadays.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 13, 2021, 21:39Quote from: Nvy on October 13, 2021, 20:382nd, try google for some clips.
Is that the ones at the inboard end of the rearmost suspension linkages at the rear? If so, that's the ones I was referring to in my first post. They look like they would adjust toe-in to me, but perhaps they do indeed adjust camber as they are attached to the hubs lower that the drive shafts.
As far as camber adjustment for our car there isn't any. We can only adjust toe however when you do that it does change the camber value. You can buy camber adjusters but I personally would only do that if I wanted more negative camber not less.
You shouldn't have to worry about that, I would just get the toe alignment set back to OEM. I like my front toe to be 0 and my rear toe to be very slightly positive for high speed handling. Don't worry if your camber numbers are a little off from each other, toe is more important especially for tire wear.
Another one for Tein springs and KYB struts, hard to fault for the cost. Have run mine on these for 4 years. Keeps some compliance for any B road action.
Only gripe I have is that the arch gap on the front looks wider compared to the rear, but that might be just the wheel setup I have.
We have run stock, Tein-S, and H&R springs. As for geometry, the lowering springs do increase negative camber a bit, but not enough to be a worry. While many suggest camber isn't adjustable, there is a small amount of play in the strut bolts so it is possible to change it slightly without camber bolts. With H&R springs, and using the slight play and stock bolts, we ended at -1.1 - -1.2 front and -1.5 - -1.7 rear. That works well and is still within the allowed OEM tolerances.
Stock struts or new KYB will work OK with lowering springs, but the damping doesn't quite match the stiffer springs. There are conditions where the rebound damping seems a bit weak, like the feeling from worn struts with stock springs on bumpy roads. I suspect many think the stock struts are worn out quickly with stiffer springs because the rebound damping was too weak to start with. We went with Koni inserts which have less compression damping than stock and allow changing the rebound. They work very well with lowering springs.
As for the springs, we like the H&R better than the Tein. They don't lower quite as much (about 1/2" or 13mm less) and measure slightly stiffer. The overall ride isn't than far from stock
Lowering springs do have downsides. The big one is ground clearance as even the H&R lower about 1" (25 mm) front and rear. The Tein lower more and we had issues with the Tein on speed bumps, steep driveways, and any obstacles on the road. The slightly higher H&R reduced those issues
Another downside is reduced suspension travel. With the Tein springs, the front is almost sitting on the OEM bump stops when sitting still. So on almost any bump, the stiff bump stops come into play. The original Tein instructions recommended cutting the front stops .8" (20 mm), but we cut them slightly more to just under the groove for the boots or 1" (25mm). H&R doesn't have any recommendation, the cut front stops work nicely with them and it takes a big bump to get to the bump stops. The read bump stops can be left stock
But if you are driving a lot on really rough roads, stock springs and new struts like KYB work very well. We went with Koni's on stock springs and that works a bit better, but it may be hard to justify the cost.
For anyone who is wondering about how long Konis last, we bought a used set of struts with Koni inserts with over 90,000 miles just for the housings. The fronts were still working fine, but had noticeable wear on the strut rods so they were replaced. The rears were still OK and had no visible issues, and we ran them for almost 10,000 miles before replacement. The new rear inserts ended with the same settings as the old ones and worked the same.
Thank you all for the extra comments.
@Beachbum957, your comments are very interesting. The H&Rs appeal to me if they aren't quite so low. The Koni inserts you mention, what exactly are they? Are they damping cartridges that fit inside standard struts or something? Is there a part number or name?
We ran Tein-S springs for nearly 30,000 miles, but like the H&R better.
I am not sure who carries Koni in the UK, but you can start HERE (https://www.koniuk.co.uk/)
The Konis are inserts that go into modified stock struts. The housings are cut, the original internals removed and the inserts installed. They come with instructions, but you can probably get the instructions from any reseller to see what is involved. Or you can search the forum for "Koni" or "Preparation for Koni inserts" to get more info. There are some differences of opinion on modifying the rear housings as far as how much to cut, but the forum threads cover the topic.
The part numbers are
Front 8641-1420SPORT (2 required)
Rear 8641-1422SPORT (2 required)
Or you can get the sport kit that should come with H&R springs and all 4 inserts
Sport Kit 1140-3991
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSnNZt3NiI
Angle grinder makes it a lot simpler.
Running Eibach springs and new kyb struts, no complaints and not too low.
Eibachs are dearer, but imo, worth it.
Toyota also sell bolts that have a shallower shank. So a bit more adjustment can be had.
Quote from: Ardent on October 14, 2021, 20:15Toyota also sell bolts that have a shallower shank. So a bit more adjustment can be had.
a.k.a. crash bolts. Don´t know why.
Am I missing something, or are you suggesting Toyota sell parts that are not fit for purpose.
I find it very hard to believe, they would sell a part that would not perform it's intended function.
I'm just coming back to this after a busy few days. Thanks again for all the additional advice. I'm not going to do anything just yet. I first want to get it MOTd and back on the road (hopefully within a week) and then refamiliarise myself with the feel of the current stock setup before anything else. I'm most tempted with the Tein springs and KYB struts because they are tried and tested by lots of you, readily available, (hopefully) easy to fit and not too expensive. The Koni inserts seem like a good idea, but I'm not sure that I trust myself to modify the struts. H&R springs are appealing, but I have only found one stockist and they are quite a bit more expensive than the Teins.
Speaking of the Tein springs, the fronts and rears are advertised as having different lowering heights (29mm front, 33mm rear). Why would this be? I just want the car to be level. My only guess is that a slight nose up would help with speed bumps, but I'm not sure that it would really make much difference in practice.
I've also just noticed that unusually, MR2-Ben seem to have the best price for the KYBs at the moment. £69 fronts and £79 rears, including VAT but not delivery. Tempting.
Unusual indeed.
Good price for kyb.
Quote from: Ardent on October 14, 2021, 21:34Am I missing something, or are you suggesting Toyota sell parts that are not fit for purpose.
I find it very hard to believe, they would sell a part that would not perform it's intended function.
I am not, they are just called like that regardless of the brand.
I was always attracted to the teins because of the different drop heights. The reason for this is that the fronts sit higher than the rears as standard so a larger drop on the front makes the car look better.
Having recently fitted teins again, I do think the spring rate is too soft. I had eibachs on a previous car and thought they were great. I know of at least one other member who had teins and didnt like them so swopped for H&R and he loves them. I may well look at changing my springs at some stage.
I would look on ebay and find the kybs from places like parts in motion and car parts for less and save them in your watch list and wait for the quite frequent 20% off vouchers they do. Look at their own websites too as they can have offers there as well if you buy direct.
Quote from: Topdownman on October 17, 2021, 08:53I was always attracted to the teins because of the different drop heights. The reason for this is that the fronts sit higher than the rears as standard so a larger drop on the front makes the car look better.
...but the teins lower the rear more. Or at least thats what it says on every website i looked at.
Quote from: Iain on October 17, 2021, 09:33...but the teins lower the rear more. Or at least thats what it says on every website i looked at.
Have a look at the comparative spring rate table.
The TRD springs uprate significantly different front/rear, whereas the after marketby and large follows the stock balance. TRD álso gives a slight rake (the front lower than the rear).
Quote from: Iain on October 17, 2021, 09:33Quote from: Topdownman on October 17, 2021, 08:53I was always attracted to the teins because of the different drop heights. The reason for this is that the fronts sit higher than the rears as standard so a larger drop on the front makes the car look better.
...but the teins lower the rear more. Or at least thats what it says on every website i looked at.
Just had a look and most websites do say that the drop is lower on the rear on most listings. Not sure I agree with them though!
I did find that monkey wrench racing list the bigger drop at the front;
mwr (https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/tein-s-tech-lowering-springs-toyota-mr2-spyder-00-05/)
It doesnt make any sense to drop the rear more so I think that the listings are wrong?
I would still personally recommend the eibachs or H&Rs over the teins though!
Tein US lists the drop as -1.4" (-36) front and -1.2" (-31 mm) rear, but the springs are out of stock, and have been for some time. Info HERE (https://www.tein.com/tech_info/l22.html). Tein global doesn't even seem to list the springs anymore. We bought Tein springs 10 years ago, and the drop was a bit more than that, but the car was fairly level.
There are a couple issues with Tein S springs. The front was lowered to the point it almost touched the stock front bump stops. The early instructions show cutting the front bump stops .8", but apparently the later instructions don't mention it, so perhaps the front springs have changed. In either case, even with cut stops it didn't take a really hard bump to get into the front bump stops because of the reduced travel. Another problem was the significant number of counterfeit Tein springs at that time. Info HERE (https://www.tein.com/counterfeit/)
Tein doesn't mention it, but the springs are dual rate and about the same rate as OEM initially, and then stiffer. The spring rate listed in the documents is the stiffer rate for an unmounted spring. Most of the softer rate is used up by the initial compression, so the rate in the normal travel range is the stiffer rate.
We ran the Tein springs for nearly 10 years with both KYB struts and Koni's and thought they were fine, until we tried the H&R. Now I would not go back to the Tein. The H&R and Koni's is a very nicely matched package. There is a reason the Koni suspension kit sold in many markets comes with H&R springs.
I learned early to not put much confidence in advertised specs as they are often not entirely accurate.
Quote from: Topdownman on October 17, 2021, 11:12Quote from: Iain on October 17, 2021, 09:33Quote from: Topdownman on October 17, 2021, 08:53I was always attracted to the teins because of the different drop heights. The reason for this is that the fronts sit higher than the rears as standard so a larger drop on the front makes the car look better.
...but the teins lower the rear more. Or at least thats what it says on every website i looked at.
It doesnt make any sense to drop the rear more so I think that the listings are wrong?
I would still personally recommend the eibachs or H&Rs over the teins though!
Yeah i dont get it either, i also thought surely the listings are wrong/backwards.
I read alot on here before i lowered mine as i fancied the teins but plenty of posts about it being too low and too soft put me off.
In the end went with the Eibachs as having used them on cars in the past i knew they were a quality product with proper research.
To clarify, the Tein UK website lists the springs as -29mm front and -33mm rear. See here: https://uk.tein.com/srch/uk_search.php?maker=TOYOTA&carmodel=MR-S&modelyear=1999-2007&item=default&genuine=0&tuvchk=0
You have to select MR-S rather than MR2 Spyder (there is no MR2 Roadster option) to get any spring info. So assuming the stock car sits level (which may not be the case) then this would give a slight nose up appearance.
Fascinating, as Tein US and Tein UK list different part numbers, but the spring free length and spring rate is the same. The chassis code on the US site is ZZW30L and the UK has ZZW30. If would seem the UK and Europe uses different springs than North America.
The UK site for the MR2 Spyder (as it is called in the US) lists the coilover kit, which is NOT available in the US!
To add to the confusion, the cars sold in North America and the UK used the same OEM springs
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 17, 2021, 12:41To clarify, the Tein UK website lists the springs as -29mm front and -33mm rear. See here: https://uk.tein.com/srch/uk_search.php?maker=TOYOTA&carmodel=MR-S&modelyear=1999-2007&item=default&genuine=0&tuvchk=0
You have to select MR-S rather than MR2 Spyder (there is no MR2 Roadster option) to get any spring info. So assuming the stock car sits level (which may not be the case) then this would give a slight nose up appearance.
For what it's worth. I am on kyb and teins. With a look through, what have you done or the photo corner threads. Lots of pics of my car. I feel fairly sure it is not nose up.
Quote from: Ardent on October 17, 2021, 17:52Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 17, 2021, 12:41To clarify, the Tein UK website lists the springs as -29mm front and -33mm rear. See here: https://uk.tein.com/srch/uk_search.php?maker=TOYOTA&carmodel=MR-S&modelyear=1999-2007&item=default&genuine=0&tuvchk=0
You have to select MR-S rather than MR2 Spyder (there is no MR2 Roadster option) to get any spring info. So assuming the stock car sits level (which may not be the case) then this would give a slight nose up appearance.
For what it's worth. I am on kyb and teins. With a look through, what have you done or the photo corner threads. Lots of pics of my car. I feel fairly sure it is not nose up.
Everything that I have seen with the Teins in pictures and in person with the Tein S springs does not have the nose pointed up. I do not know which one it is but I recall one of the other three spring choices did have the appearance of the front higher than the rear which came from a very old discussion on Spyerchat that had pictures.
I have driven cars with the Tein S and Eibach combos and they felt the same to me which was limiting for my taste and much closer to the softness of the OEM.
The only suspension I felt was one of the best balanced was the Sportivo kit but that also included other parts of the suspension like matched swaybars however I still felt that I wanted more and I got exactly that.
The nose looking higher can also come down to alloy wheel sizes. Cars that have 16s on the rear and 15s on the front have about a 15mm height difference between the two on oem tyre sizes.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 16, 2021, 23:21I've also just noticed that unusually, MR2-Ben seem to have the best price for the KYBs at the moment. £69 fronts and £79 rears, including VAT but not delivery. Tempting.
If Paul at TCB has them, he'll be cheaper than MR2Ben. I have never known them to be cheap on anything I looked for. More likely a 15 or 20% off on ebay is the cheapest.
There are cheap Teins on there at the mo' btw right now.
Quote from: Iain on October 17, 2021, 19:26The nose looking higher can also come down to alloy wheel sizes. Cars that have 16s on the rear and 15s on the front have about a 15mm height difference between the two on oem tyre sizes.
Thinking about this, if aftermarket manufacturers supply the same springs for the pre and post facelift cars (as Tein do), then either the pre or post facelift car will always be slightly tilted, depending on which version the springs are optimised for.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on October 19, 2021, 17:14Quote from: Iain on October 17, 2021, 19:26The nose looking higher can also come down to alloy wheel sizes. Cars that have 16s on the rear and 15s on the front have about a 15mm height difference between the two on oem tyre sizes.
Thinking about this, if aftermarket manufacturers supply the same springs for the pre and post facelift cars (as Tein do), then either the pre or post facelift car will always be slightly tilted, depending on which version the springs are optimised for.
There were some slight changes to the springs I believe around 2004 for meet certain pedestrian safety standards in Canada for height. Otherwise the struts and springs for the aftermarket is the same for all years and should not make any difference.
Speaking of effects on geometry....
Remember the discussions about the effects of the dog bones?
If one thinks thát confusing, try a sidecar.
Tried to explain sidecar geometry to Mounatin Girl and what happens when it is on the move. How the various forces always cause all three wheels to scrub, roll with a slip angle.
Too much different forces involved to remember in a virtual situation.
Just went down to the village for some proper drawing material (son took all with him).
I've been pondering over this for a few days. Should I really get lowering springs (and new struts) or should I just be happy with what I've got? Anyway, whilst working on the car earlier, this dropped off the bottom of one of the springs. I guess that settles it then. A new set of Teins and struts will be ordered tomorrow.IMG_20211024_223427442.jpg
@Ardent,
@McMr2,
@Beachbum957 ,
@Iain ,
@Topdownman I think you all said that you use/have used lowering springs (mostly Teins) with KYB shocks. How much have you trimmed the front and rear bump stops by, and did you trim from the top or the bottom? I have mine now, but haven't fitted them yet.
The original Tein instructions I got with the US springs (apparently slightly different than Tein UK) listed cutting the fronts .8" (20mm) off the bottom, and not cutting the rear. I cut our fronts 1" (25mm) to just below the groove for the boot.
I cut mine in the first groove down which was something like 20-25mm (cant remember exactly) but seen here on the left with the cut off bits;
(https://i.imgur.com/XOD3hQV.jpg)
I would have preferred to cut the bottom as the top probably has more flexibility to take up stress gradually but I didnt want to force them out of the gaiter to get to the bottom section.
Here is a diagram from the Tein instructions to remove the portion marked as "A". I can't find a picture of the OEM bump stops, but I think the boot goes in the top groove,and we cut ours just below that groove
(https://i.imgur.com/3KfT4fO.png)
Quote from: Mr Lazy on November 4, 2021, 14:57@Ardent, @McMr2, @Beachbum957 , @Iain , @Topdownman I think you all said that you use/have used lowering springs (mostly Teins) with KYB shocks. How much have you trimmed the front and rear bump stops by, and did you trim from the top or the bottom? I have mine now, but haven't fitted them yet.
Im running Eibach springs. Not trimmed any bump stops and have no issues 👍
Quote from: Mr Lazy on November 4, 2021, 14:57@Ardent, @McMr2, @Beachbum957 , @Iain , @Topdownman I think you all said that you use/have used lowering springs (mostly Teins) with KYB shocks. How much have you trimmed the front and rear bump stops by, and did you trim from the top or the bottom? I have mine now, but haven't fitted them yet.
Did not cut mine. Nor recall seeing instructions to do so.
@Mr Lazy We are close enough to meet up.
Have a ride round in mine for reference.
Thanks everyone, especially Jason for the ride offer. I'd actually like to drive your car just to see what the turbo is like 😃.
On this occasion though, based on your feedback, I feel happy to go ahead without trimming anything. I actually bought some new front bump stops because they came with new (disappointingly cheap looking) gaiters that I had to buy because the old ones split as soon as I removed them. I've just compared the new and old ones, and the new bump stops are actually about 10mm shorter than the OEM ones, which seems like an ideal compromise.
My back is a bit dodgy at the moment, but I'll update here when the car is eventually back on the road.
Quote from: Ardent on November 4, 2021, 18:35Did not cut mine. Nor recall seeing instructions to do so.
We bought our Teins 10 years ago, and they came with instructions to cut the front bump stops. But many people have reported that springs purchased in the past few years did not have the same instructions. It also seems the Teins sold in the UK don't lower the front as much as the ones sold in the US. Neither Eibach or H&R mentions anything about the bump stops, but they don't lower quite as much as the older Tein we had.
Bought my tein's Feb 15.
I don't remember anyone ever reporting that Teins bottom out. So cutting should be unnecessary. Unless they're not aware it's bottoming out and just think it was a particularly harsh bump on the road :)
Let's be honest, most people likely would never realise they've bottomed out their strut
Tein's UK instructions are useless by the way. Just a page full of tiny diagrams with ambiguous meanings. Presumably it is their attempt to produce a single set of instructions for all markets without a need for translations as there is no text, but they've missed the mark.
any diagrams suggesting cutting?
I remember this cropping up as I was putting my springs on with my new KYB struts and had mixed messages too so I emailed Tein.
They eventually returned my email:
Good afternoon
Thank you for your enquiry, my apologies for the delay in our reply
Please check the part number of the product
If its SKY24-AVB00, there is no need to cut the bump rubber
Please contact us if this is not the part number
If you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact us.
Kind Regards
Yukiko Koito
TEIN UK LIMITED
The Tein-S sold in the US is different than sold in the UK. The US part number is SKL22-AUB00. The amount of lowering is different (-36mm Front, -31 Rear in US) and I wouldn't be surprised they are completely different springs.
Quote from: Mr Lazy on November 4, 2021, 14:57@Ardent, @McMr2, @Beachbum957 , @Iain , @Topdownman I think you all said that you use/have used lowering springs (mostly Teins) with KYB shocks. How much have you trimmed the front and rear bump stops by, and did you trim from the top or the bottom? I have mine now, but haven't fitted them yet.
Sorry
@Mr Lazy , been a busy week. I didn't trim mine as the paperwork that came with the springs seemed to suggest it wasn't necessary.
The car isn't sitting on the bump stops at rest, but I'm certain they come into play quite easily on the bumpy b roads I tend to drive. I've thought of experimenting by cutting the old bump stops (kept them when I replaced the springs/struts) but haven't got around to it.
Quote from: Ardent on November 5, 2021, 13:13any diagrams suggesting cutting?
No, nothing at all.
@tricky1138 thank you! That is the same part number as mine.
Good morning. I have managed to get some nearly new KYB shocks recently and have noticed that the front and rear have the same bump stop and boots? is this right or has the previous owner made a mistake?
Quote from: Smithy on November 15, 2021, 10:57Good morning. I have managed to get some nearly new KYB shocks recently and have noticed that the front and rear have the same bump stop and boots? is this right or has the previous owner made a mistake?
I didn't buy KYB branded bump stops, but the OEM ones are definitely different front to rear.
Most people don't realize that the OEM struts is not the same as the KYB replacements.
Both are made by KYB but they are a different product. I was taken by surprise when I had a chance to compare them together side by side by pushing down on them. This could be a good thing for the KYB replacements as far as longevity but they might not be as good as a damper as the OEM.
I would image that if there are bump stop differences it should be taken into consideration and compared to OEM for which the springs were designed for.
Quote from: Dev on November 20, 2021, 15:34Most people don't realize that the OEM struts is not the same as the KYB replacements.
Both are made by KYB but they are a different product. I was taken by surprise when I had a chance to compare them together side by side by pushing down on them. This could be a good thing for the KYB replacements as far as longevity but they might not be as good as a damper as the OEM.
I would image that if there are bump stop differences it should be taken into consideration and compared to OEM for which the springs were designed for.
So, what was your perception of difference Dev, the KYB firmer or not as firm as OE?
Quote from: Joesson on November 20, 2021, 17:35Quote from: Dev on November 20, 2021, 15:34Most people don't realize that the OEM struts is not the same as the KYB replacements.
Both are made by KYB but they are a different product. I was taken by surprise when I had a chance to compare them together side by side by pushing down on them. This could be a good thing for the KYB replacements as far as longevity but they might not be as good as a damper as the OEM.
I would image that if there are bump stop differences it should be taken into consideration and compared to OEM for which the springs were designed for.
So, what was your perception of difference Dev, the KYB firmer or not as firm as OE?
I cant say for sure since I haven't done a back to back comparison with it installed on the car. What I did notice from relatively new OEM suspension that was removed at around 20k miles from a garage queen compared to KYB aftermarket replacements was a different damping force when I compressed both.
The OEM was a bit firmer to compress displacing the shock oil but it did not spring back like the KYB when you let go. I suspect that there was more of a gas charge in the KYB.
At first I thought that more of the gas charge having the strut rod pop up is better but now I think its not very relevant. Its possible that the valving is different and so is the gas bladder.
How it translates is hard to tell but they were certainly different.The OEM doesn't last very long and there are those that say that say the KYB replacements have done many more miles from anecdotal reports. It is possible that the specification was given to KYB by Toyota and they are of that specific design where the KYB are a bit more generic for their aftermarket product line but it meets the specs somewhat.
Thank you
@Dev. So similar but not identical. As is usually the case buyer be aware. It is, I suppose unlikely that an aftermarket product at a lesser price is going to exactly replicate the OE, even if by the same manufacturer, otherwise there would be no point in the main player having replacement OE items manufactured to sell at a premium price.
Quote from: Joesson on November 20, 2021, 18:33Thank you @Dev. So similar but not identical. As is usually the case buyer be aware. It is, I suppose unlikely that an aftermarket product at a lesser price is going to exactly replicate the OE, even if by the same manufacturer, otherwise there would be no point in the main player having replacement OE items manufactured to sell at a premium price.
From what I read KYB manufactures for a lot of OEMs but it doesn't mean its their own design as its often sub contracted out based on the manufactures specification to make them. KYB aftermarket might actually be a separate entity that cannot sell you the actual OEM part however they have some kind of generic marketed product line that meets the specification.
I vaguely remember someone telling me that the OEM struts that someone purchased from the dealer was very expensive and this could be due to the dealer pricing but who knows.
What I do remember was some people claiming that the ones sold by KYB are OEM because KYB makes them for Toyota. Devil is in the details.