G'day peeps :)
Just a general curiosity here...
I've noticed that MR2 prices are starting to creep up as more are being scrapped/parted out and I'm questioning my own plans to 2ZZ swap my car this summer.
In the current climate where clean/unmodified original cars (in general, not just the MR2) are generally fetching more than modified examples would it be prudent to keep the 1ZZ? Because my car has a full Toyota service history and receipts for everything its every had done to it... a lot of that goes out the window as its no longer applicable once you change the engine.
I've seen a number of 2ZZ swapped cars for sale (some sold easily, some have been hanging around for a long time) and its hard for me to gauge whether the 2ZZ adds true value (Not necessarily talking about money here) to the car to warrant doing the swap or whether the swap itself is actually putting off future owners or narrowing the number of interested owners.
I've now got 100% of everything I need to do a 2ZZ swap this summer, but I'm wondering whether the smarter option is actually to pass on the car as it stands and then sell all the 2ZZ conversion parts as a separate kit.
What do you guys think?
If for the money, the answer is obvious.
Unmolested original cars will always appreciate best.
Have you gone through the 2ZZ engine? I ask 'cos many have had a hard life and may not last very long before developing big problems.
How about 15K for this one :https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304830112405?hash=item46f94a6295:g:aXUAAOSwUndkBvZD&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoBW2JhqtZFt2uAmja0pBgV52osZjGGZmyYriz8f%2FDhmFiYdeSwgNUFrfsfTO87yKtdvnv%2BZvpIzsF521Ugkt8cPDBDMSnlniccLNHzwN7g7WraF%2FTfu0OWZJ9HslZiKJacBpEnXZhfeg1oY0h3Pmo7ZW25oAyxC4p29E6OXtIOX1nMkm2F%2F1mKlOy%2FQjMVRB%2FBCw6%2FIpzKtzfGjoOYAGG%2BM%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4zG6Y_YYQ
If you are not planning on keeping it then stay 1zz would be what I would do.
Best to do the 2zz on a cheap donor car with a bad engine.
Cheers all.
Yes my car is not perfect at all, but the 1zz itself is in great condition and uses zero oil. So seems a shame to remove it.
I'll probably let fate decide :) Will advertise the car this summer and if I can find a new home for it I will, otherwise will push on with the 2ZZ swap this Autumn with a view to passing it on next summer.
Quote from: Anon on March 8, 2023, 13:08MR2 ownership, I don't think its a profit making scheme. If it is I'm totally missing something.
They are the only affordable mid engine rwd sports car, and that gives a massive return in intense unassisted driving pleasure.
If you're making choices to do with money, then just sell it now for whatever you can, and work at McDonnalds or something with your hours!!
The price appreciation dream? Not sure they even cover their rent due on garage space.
This has nothing to do with making profit. I never bought this MR2 project expecting to even break even. Losing money and time over it was always the expected outcome.
But what I wanted to establish was "does the world need another 2ZZ powered MR2" or "does the world want a restored MR2 kept as close to original as possible"?
You can go work in McDonalds if you want :) I've never worked in retail lol
Trust me, I have plenty of other projects on the go to fill my time completely. But its about doing right by the car.
In another 10 years there will probably be very few original roadsters left on the road. So do I want to preserve a 'survivor' or leave behind what some may consider a "molested" car. That's really the question.
So now I've restored the MR2 I'll enjoy it and try to find a new home for it this summer. Whoever takes this car off me is going to be getting something very special. But if nobody comes to get it then I guess that answers my question on what the market wants and in that case I'll push on with the 2ZZ swap.
Gut feeling says.
Enjoy it as is.
It has never seemed sensible to my way of thinking to buy a car with a good working engine and take the heart out of it and put in something that has been used and likely abused.
I would enjoy what you have or sell it and buy an oil burner to play with.
That way there are two 2's that are likely viable/ buyable other than one modified one that may or may not be.
Here is my view, may get a few comments but hey ho
I have been looking for a 2zz for trackdays, my 1zz is fine, handles lovely but just lacks power, my problem is, most out there are either high mileage ones or look like dogs, and if you look about, including this forum, they aint that reliable and that puts me off.
Rob
You'll have more fun in a 2ZZ than a 1ZZ. If the difference in value is holding you back, it'll be negligible.
You have everything you need, get on with it. You won't regret it.
You can have the most kosher MR2 in the world but even if it is fully loaded with OEM options it will not add the same value as those parts would be worth sold individually.
This effect is more noticeable and worse when the parts fitted aren't kosher.
Sod resale value. These cars are pocket change nowadays and they're not appreciating, used cars are in a bubble market right now. In the real world these slightly higher prices is only barely keeping up with double digit inflation so values are only crawling up if at all.
Just drive and enjoy.
Has anyone heard the term period correct.
A 2ZZ would be considered historical for this car as far as transformative conversions go and if done right in a way that looks factory would fetch more to a real buyer that wants to drive and not collect.
What would lower the the value is if the car was bastardized to where it looks like someone personalized the car to match their own taste that even the most casual observer can tell.
If it looks like it came that way from the factory thats all that matters if retaining max value is the goal.
IMO going turbo is the better option as the install is reversible and once you've gone 2ZZ you're in it for the long haul along with an engine that's mostly been ragged all it's life
Also 2ZZ great for a track focused car but keeping it in lift on a road car for performance seems a less enjoyable experience v turbo
https://youtu.be/0wIs-_pCEZo
Quote from: Dev on March 9, 2023, 02:54Has anyone heard the term period correct.
Aiiii Dev. ´Period correct´ is in this case ánything turn of the century/early century especially JDM. Even ´stanced´ is.
Take mine. Whatever you may think of it, period correct it totally is :)) Go figure ;)
Best not to put to fine a point to it.
For vaue, better to not molest the car.
Ceteris paribus a nice working 1ZZ is worth more than a 2ZZ with a question mark.
As a rule mods do at very best not add value unless it is a nice TTE turbo and even thát narrows the field.
They áre increasing in value if nice low mileage. Still not worth the garage rent though. Basically they never will increase more than that. It will always be a mass produced Toyota.
There will always be plenty about and unless something which fell trough a wormhole in time, nobody will need to feel it cultural barbarism to personalise even ´butcher´ one for personal enjoyment.
Them´s for fun, not good investments nor historic monuments.
Just enjoy driving the wheels off!!
The way the UK ones are rotting from the ground up I would say that general, overall condition of the shell and rolling chassis will soon become more important than what's in the engine bay.
With Toyota not making many of the major structural elements anymore, such as the front subframe/chassis strengthening pieces and the way they rot, there's going to be more and more consigned to the scrap heap.
And the ones going to the breakers will soon not have the parts to keep up with demand for the same reason.
06 cars on fairly low mileage and otherwise reasonable condition under threat of disposal for want of a chassis brace etc.
I don't think 'there will always be plenty about'. There were never many sold in the first place, numbers are fast going down and, as Midlife says, many are rotten. The good solid ones that are looked after are relatively few in number.
As for it being a cheap mass produced car and never being worth much, there are plenty examples of cheap (often terrible) mass produced cars that have become expensive collectors' items. Who would have bet on the early escorts and fiestas becoming expensive classics, back when they were new? Or how about an 850 Mini Minor, which was a total rot-box?
There are now just over 5,000 registered in the UK. And just under 3,000 on Sorn (most of which will never see road use again). Deduct from those numbers, rotten cars, parts cars and highly modified cars and they are getting quite rare.
@Gibla has proven that really good ones are bringing prices in the £6,000 to £7,000 range as of 2022. My bet is they'll keep going up.
Ofcoúrse the value will increase. Heck, even just keeping up with the inflation is a race to the sky! The ham question is whether that outpaces the rent value of the garage space.
Looking at the Mk.1 and Mk.2 which had inferior rsut protection/sperior prodcution numbers, those are still quite affordable.
This might be of interest:
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/toyota_mr2_roadster_vvti (https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/toyota_mr2_roadster_vvti)
I must admit I SORM'ed all my 2s.
Answering the op ?
If it's maximising your investment , sell an unmodified car along with the unused 2zz bits n pieces this would trump any completed 2zz converted car value (easily)
In general there seeems to be 4 states of MR2 mk3
1) Totally unmodified or untouched ie OEM
2) Bodily enhanced MR2 < tasteful or not
3) Performance enhanced mods <wheels n tyres, brakes,suspension,exhaust,engine to a greater or lesser degree, *expensive* invariably
4) Combo of 2) +3) << *some* are very desirable and have been done really well, others less so
It really does depend on what you are wanting from your car.....I can only comment from my pov, to sell on, it's far easier to sell on an unmodified car in good condition, *but* it's far more fun to drive around in something that's got a wee bit more poke (in my case I have experienced the joys of a supercharged car and currently am satisfied with good exhaust mods eg Zero)
Quote from: Carolyn on March 9, 2023, 11:01This might be of interest:
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/toyota_mr2_roadster_vvti (https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/toyota_mr2_roadster_vvti)
Indeed.
Since 2005 the number has gone down from the 11k max to 8k now. Not that bad no considering the wear, tear and rust started in 2000. Or am I misunderstanding SORN?
Quote from: Petrus on March 9, 2023, 12:06Indeed.
Since 2005 the number has gone down from the 11k max to 8k now. Not that bad no considering the wear, tear and rust started in 2000. Or am I misunderstanding SORN?
SORN means it's been declared as off the road, so not scrapped but for whatever reasons not currently taxed to be used on the road.
Such as my pair both currently garaged in various states of refurbishment before being sold/put back into use.
But it also applies to the countless ones used purely for motorsports/track use (I believe but could be wrong) that I don't think can be classed as scrapped if they still have a chassis/engine number.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on March 9, 2023, 12:18SORN means it's been declared as off the road, so not scrapped but for whatever reasons not currently taxed to be used on the road.
Such as my pair both currently garaged in various states of refurbishment before being sold/put back into use.
But it also applies to the countless ones used purely for motorsports/track use (I believe but could be wrong) that I don't think can be classed as scrapped if they still have a chassis/engine number.
Ok, so basically the 8k still exist. Meaning that since 2000 only 3k have gone even if only some 6k are in more or less use on the road. Even that is less than half ´lost´ in over 2 decades.
Quote from: Anon on March 9, 2023, 12:46MR2's are not all that popular, and often mocked for being uncool....
Mass produced Toyota cabrio for hairdressers ;)
They will increase in value but imo the current trend is about the steapest they will see. It is a few years past the bottom and it will level out when they near the average of Mk.1 and 2. As with those the exceptional examples will fetch exceptional prices from collectors.
As to the op example, the largest value is in the dríving. The increase less that the cost of the garage space.
Quote from: Petrus on March 9, 2023, 12:30Ok, so basically the 8k still exist. Meaning that since 2000 only 3k have gone even if only some 6k are in more or less use on the road. Even that is less than half ´lost´ in over 2 decades.
See Anon's comment re the "backyard" breakers, until a licensed dismantler records the vehicle as scrapped it could be still be listed as SORNed but long since sold off for parts and the chassis cut up for scrap.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on March 9, 2023, 13:06See Anon's comment re the "backyard" breakers, until a licensed dismantler records the vehicle as scrapped it could be still be listed as SORNed but long since sold off for parts and the chassis cut up for scrap.
Hence me mentioning 6k.
It use to be a modified car would lose its value over a unmolested one but if the modified car was well maintained and the modifications were done proper along with the rest of the condition of the car they are fetching their value. Granted the owner probably had to account for losses from the amount of money put into it and down time from driving it but the owner had the privilege of enjoying it in its modified state which is worth something more for the experience then telling everyone you have a collectors car.
At the end of the day it comes down to the cars condition no matter what was done to it. As an enthusiast If I found such a car I would pay a premium over one that had an original 1ZZ. A local friend sold a 2003 tastefully modified car with suspension and turbo for a premium price because it was low miles and in immaculate garaged kept condition. The new owner got a well sorted turnkey car.
If I found out the car was raced the value plummets. Although the market favors project cars at their low prices, these are drivers cars and if it sits there is no value in that.
OP have you driven a decent 2ZZ conversion? I'm guessing not given your hesitation to swap one in.
For me the 2ZZ-GE in the ZZW30 chassis is a perfect combo. You won't find this level of engagement in anything under £20k e.g lotus Elise, VX220 etc.
And the fact you do track days as well should make the swap even more appealing. They give unbelievable performance for what they cost to build. Mine embarrasses so many cars that are so much more on paper, but out on track isn't on paper its real world, and the MR2 2ZZ is a very capable real world car.
There's no way I'd ever recover the cash I have in mine, you don't ever get back what you pay out in mods, or really ever think you will, it's all about the journey and pleasure they give you, hence I'm never going to sell, my kids will have to sort when I "pop my clogs".
There's many owners who can attest to selling their modded cars at a loss and Danny Joice is a prime example well over £30K on a highly modded well executed but similar to the Lamborghini style body kitted ones that were on the market circa £25K for that sort of budget there's plenty of choice for higher end sports cars
Wow, I turned my back for a day and this thread has leapt forward. Had to read back through all the posts lol Thanks all for the valuable input :)
So this MR2 was only ever bought as a project for our YouTube channel and for me to scratch the 2zz MR2 itch I've had for a number of years now. It was never going to be a car that I would be holding onto I'm afraid (in fact I'm sorry to say I already have my eyes on my next project to replace this) and always intended on passing it onto someone else in a better condition than how I found it. Finding an imperfect car, doing right by the car and trying to extend the life of it was always my priority.
Yes i've been out in a 2zz MR2 and a 1zz turbo MR2 before so I know how good they can be. It's going to definitely be taken out on track (would be rude not to) but don't want to make it a full on track car as I don't want to ruin it. It still has to be a good daily driver for the next owner. There are plenty of other full on track cars out there for sale so I don't see value in doing that to this car. But this is not my main/personal car/track-car.
There is a compelling argument for and against the 2zz swap, so now I've sunk the time and money into restoring the car I'll try to find a new home for it this summer so that I can move onto the next project. But if I don't find a new home for it then I'm more than happy to push on with the 2zz swap (because I have everything I need anyway) and find a new home for it next summer instead.
Really appreciate all the input. Really helps me figure out my future plans for the car.
Not to spam the post particularly but this morning I've seen an advert for a 56 plate with 38k on the clock for £2500.
"No MOT, needs welding underneath and will need trailering away"
Rest of the car looks in good condition but the MOT history tells a story...
RE56 GNO
Quote from: Call the midlife! on March 10, 2023, 08:43Not to spam the post particularly but this morning I've seen an advert for a 56 plate with 38k on the clock for £2500.
"No MOT, needs welding underneath and will need trailering away"
Rest of the car looks in good condition but the MOT history tells a story...
RE56 GNO
There will always be Californian and Andalucian cars ;)
This is btw anóther reason not to take the UK vehicle along when moving thisaway.
The two bottom lines are that:
- the Mk.1 and 2 set quite clear prognosis that the Mk.3 will always be (relatively) affordable
- the OP best leaves his car stock if resale is an agenda
Quote from: Anon on March 10, 2023, 10:54Sort of tester that's real fun at parties :))
Bbq ´em?
Quote from: Anon on March 10, 2023, 10:54I think that has been tested by a pretty pedantic tester...
Advising it on the plastic coating on the brake lines - seen that too many times.
Sort of tester that's real fun at parties :))
I'm reasonably confident they put that to cover their own backs if they can't actually see the condition of the lines for whatever reason.
I've seen plenty of cars submitted for testing that have had the lines purposely blathered in grease or hammerite just to get them through a test.
Quote from: Topdownman on March 8, 2023, 11:51If you are not planning on keeping it then stay 1zz would be what I would do.
Best to do the 2zz on a cheap donor car with a bad engine.
I did mine on a very cheap donor (£1k). The engine wasn't bad, it had just done a few miles.
I borrowed a 2zz swapped spyder for a week. For city/highway driving it is miserable. The low and mid-range power is very low. If you want to go fast, you must lean on the throttle and wait, wait, wait until rpms make it sound like the engine will explode. Then (finally!) it starts to move. If you don't hit absolute redline before shifting, you fall out of "lift" and you're back to waiting and waiting for rpms to climb. If the engine is not in "lift" I think the 1zz actually has more power. To experience the concept, try driving to work with your 1zz held above 5000rpm. It's not enjoyable. I'd say you should swap to 2zz if you intend to track the car and keep it in "lift" extensively. Otherwise it's not worth the effort/cost/noise/drop in value/loss in driveability
Quote from: Anon on March 10, 2023, 14:08Thing is every car in the country has steel brake lines with plastic sheathing.
They would put it on every car they test.
It's like the "underbody plastic covers obscuring observation of structural components" advisory.
Slight misting of oil on dampers was advised. Really nit picking.
Total jobs worth.
Might be quite a nice car if someone looked at it with a realistic eye of 20 year old scum boxes.
To be fair there's no mention of plastic sheathing, just "grease or other material" so could well be gunked up with some form of underseal like many of the other rotboxes.
Quote from: cyclehead on March 10, 2023, 14:25I borrowed a 2zz swapped spyder for a week. For city/highway driving it is miserable. The low and mid-range power is very low. If you want to go fast, you must lean on the throttle and wait, wait, wait until rpms make it sound like the engine will explode. Then (finally!) it starts to move. If you don't hit absolute redline before shifting, you fall out of "lift" and you're back to waiting and waiting for rpms to climb. If the engine is not in "lift" I think the 1zz actually has more power. To experience the concept, try driving to work with your 1zz held above 5000rpm. It's not enjoyable. I'd say you should swap to 2zz if you intend to track the car and keep it in "lift" extensively. Otherwise it's not worth the effort/cost/noise/drop in value/loss in driveability
If I rmember correctly the 2ZZ output is pretty much the 1ZZ but with quite a bit of extension.
Maybe a bad/throttled install. The OEM intake/exhaust in the MR2 is already retaining a dozen of horses in the 1ZZ´s stable and seriously handicaps the 2ZZ.
Quote from: Anon on March 10, 2023, 14:08Thing is every car in the country has steel brake lines with plastic sheathing.
They would put it on every car they test.
It's like the "underbody plastic covers obscuring observation of structural components" advisory.
Slight misting of oil on dampers was advised. Really nit picking.
Total jobs worth.
Might be quite a nice car if someone looked at it with a realistic eye of 20 year old scum boxes.
You have a menu to choose from when inputting the mot failures or advisories, On shock absorber its either "Serious fluid leak" Fail or "Light misting of oil" Advisory
If DVSA come and inspect an MOT you have done they would ask why it was not on there if there was a light misting of oil.
you gotta put down what you find regardless of oh its an old car its fine.
Your oil mist example... well you can't see a misting of oil if the gaiters are still present, so the new cars never get it advised. But on 120k miles 15 year old scab boxes they don't leak because all the oil has already leaked out :))
When the vehicle is jacked up you can see underneath the gaitors if they are still intact.
You cannot have different standards between old cars and newer cars.
Quite simply if it is knackered it is knackered end of story.
I see cars coming in for MOT that had a clean sheen no advisories for years then fails on loads because it never had a proper MOT carried out in the 1st place or was "A mates garage".
Same as people looking for a friendly MOT centre that will let the DE Cat go through.. It shouldn't so don't even ask.
If the tester is looking to fail things to make money when it should have passed that is where the problems lie.
I do trade MOTs for another local garage, they know I do them properly. If it has a de cat or DPF been modified they don't even ask could you let it through because my MOT licence is worth more than letting a shitbox through.
Go to ATS or Kwickfit after putting new brakes on.. funny they need new ones already.. How many times has that happened?
Sadly some places take the piss, Honesty is the only way to run a garage.
I could be minted taking the piss out of customers but they wouldn't come back and I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing I had taken the piss, Instead I sleep well knowing I am fair and keeping dangerous cars off the road if they are unsafe.
Advisories are just that.. You may need to look at this for next year MOT its not bad enough to fail at this point in time.
Quote from: Petrus on March 10, 2023, 15:53If I rmember correctly the 2ZZ output is pretty much the 1ZZ but with quite a bit of extension.
Maybe a bad/throttled install. The OEM intake/exhaust in the MR2 is already retaining a dozen of horses in the 1ZZ´s stable and seriously handicaps the 2ZZ.
Nothing like it unless the 2ZZ is crippled with 1ZZ intake, exhaust and gearing. There are probably 70% of 2ZZ swaps that are not properly sorted which is a disappointment and in some cases slower than a 1ZZ before lift. If properly done it is no contest even if you try to do the same with a 1zz in bolt on mods. Unfortunately there are also tired and abused 2ZZ engines that are also low on power because of worn intake cams. Everyones experience can be wildly different but on the whole for the money its still popular until there is a successor that can fill that void of reasonable costs with factory reliability.
Prices on the rise, eh? This is why I've kept mine unmodified. And kept the hard top. And kept it SMT.
There is ( or was ) a red one with HT with 15k on the clock. Laid up for a while - no MOT and asking £2.5K so prices can't be going up!
Sold mine recently 15k miles 2003 went for £9200 .
with 15K on it, I´d say that is rather a bargain. Not many as new cabrios with such mileage for that money. Seen what quite méh new cars cost these days???
Paid 6k for it 11 years ago so not bad in my eyes tbh.
I still think it is a lót of car for nowadays not that precious coin but it sure beats depreciation ;D
Also goes to show that low mileage garaged OEM gets the money.
Saw this yesterday- no idea what it went for in the end.
(https://i.ibb.co/2kKBNFB/D2-F8826-F-8667-49-CD-9-FEB-D039-EECE5-F4-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2kKBNFB)
(https://i.ibb.co/v1QGSyX/62072-E32-D94-B-4069-B066-32-B014-D2-D610.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v1QGSyX)
(https://i.ibb.co/TcP9dDB/50375632-92-AB-4-B36-9-FE0-4-D1-A52-CF575-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TcP9dDB)
(https://i.ibb.co/4sCdXFt/A2-BCA7-EA-CF53-45-D1-9309-55-CC72248135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4sCdXFt)
(https://i.ibb.co/DMCM4WM/DE85-CEE4-6263-4-FC8-AA99-9-CC94-C439-F88.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DMCM4WM)
Not familiar with that thing to the right of the manifold.
Nor the bracket. Looks like a mod to me. And wiring to it.
Quote from: Ardent on March 27, 2023, 14:29Not familiar with that thing to the right of the manifold.
Nor the bracket. Looks like a mod to me. And wiring to it.
It's got some form of cruise control added to it, looking at the steering wheel, possibly some kind of servo/diaphragm related to that.
Good spot.
For some reason, I thought cruise was limited to SMT's
I could have imagined that though.
Not a typical radio either.
Quote from: Ardent on March 27, 2023, 14:29Not familiar with that thing to the right of the manifold.
Nor the bracket. Looks like a mod to me. And wiring to it.
@shnazzle your time has come ;)
Quote from: Ardent on March 27, 2023, 14:29Not familiar with that thing to the right of the manifold.
Nor the bracket. Looks like a mod to me. And wiring to it.
Looks like cruise control to me.
Yes it is cruise control unit.
Quote from: jvanzyl on March 27, 2023, 09:35Saw this yesterday- no idea what it went for in the end.
(https://i.ibb.co/2kKBNFB/D2-F8826-F-8667-49-CD-9-FEB-D039-EECE5-F4-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2kKBNFB)
(https://i.ibb.co/v1QGSyX/62072-E32-D94-B-4069-B066-32-B014-D2-D610.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v1QGSyX)
(https://i.ibb.co/TcP9dDB/50375632-92-AB-4-B36-9-FE0-4-D1-A52-CF575-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TcP9dDB)
(https://i.ibb.co/4sCdXFt/A2-BCA7-EA-CF53-45-D1-9309-55-CC72248135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4sCdXFt)
(https://i.ibb.co/DMCM4WM/DE85-CEE4-6263-4-FC8-AA99-9-CC94-C439-F88.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DMCM4WM)
So the answer was..... £13,500. Didn't hit the reserve.
I didn't realise you were there at the weekend! Did you go say hello to the guys on the stand?