Re-mapping?

[Anonymous]

Hi peeps

I have heard the expression and seen companies offering the service. Now that I have been offered the facility would some kind person care to enlighten me as to what it entails and what it does to the engine?
There would be no warranty problem (Kris), because it expired on 11th April

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[Anonymous]

There would be no warranty problem (Kris), because it expired on 11th April

sorry   s:cry: :cry: s:cry:    s:oops: :oops: s:oops:    s:cry: :cry: s:cry:    s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

[Anonymous]

Kris

No probs. When I saw you had posted I thought "Good old Kris, he is first with the information"  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Hope to see you on Sunday.

  s:D s:D

[markiii]

Roger,

No one has yet cracked the Toyota ECu not even some of the big Jap tuning companies. I would expect therefore that they are offering you a piggyback chip for that price.

This basically intercepts some of the signals going to the ECU and modifies them depending upon what it is trying to acheive. Thus it tricks the ECU into doing what it wants done rather than having to understand how to tell the engine how to do it.

While your price is cheaper (and they are closer) if it were me I'd be off to Millway at Andover who have done (and dyno proved it) a 21bhp increase from stock on Martins car (before Turbo) using a Dastek Unichip, the only mod he had was an Apexi induction kit.

£450 including fitting and tuning.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Mark

Have a good weekend.

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[mph]

Toyota won't even give ECU information to TTE. In all their tweaks they do, they use a piggyback.

Also:
a) my Unichip figure was +22bhp
b) Millway quote £400+vat (=£470inc) to do a chip fit and tune. At £18(+vat) per bhp, you won't find a cheaper, more effective mod ...plus it has an upgrade path to a turbo   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Tem]

Toyota won't even give ECU information to TTE. In all their tweaks they do, they use a piggyback.

Btw...anyone already know if the TTE turbo has a piggyback or...?

[markiii]

it does

[Anonymous]

markiii and martin

The proprietor of the motorsport business in Bromsgrove asked me not to swear at him yesterday when I mentioned a Dastek Unichip. He said he won't have ANY piggybacks in his place and refuses to sell them. A late afternoon visit to his 2500 sq ft workshop today should be quite interesting. He has offered to examine the ECU to see if their software will adjust it. If not he won't charge me. They also have a 250bhp 2-wheel rolling road and are writing their own software.

The other day he had a standard Celica in, but couldn't alter it's ECU, so did nothing to the car. Apparently, he has already re-mapped a Roadster (or two) and I intend to ask a lot of questions and also talk to the owner(s), if possible.

My problem is that I am not very mechanically minded, so could be fed a load of bullshit without knowing it. If they can do what they claim they can (although you say no-one else has managed it) what questions should I be asking? My main concern I should think, would be excessive strain and possible valve damage.

I am sitting on the edge of my seat in enthusiastic anticipation of your repies  s:!: :!: s:!:  

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[mph]

Roger,

I don't know what can and can't be done with our ECU so all final judgements are reserved, but here's my current thoughts:

1) What *exactly* are they 're-writing'? Firmware, maps, both? How? - OBD or direct ECU connection - if the latter, which pins?!

2) Why does he dislike piggybacks?

3) Toyota won't give TTE (now calling themselves Toyota-F1 btw) any more information about the ECU than is already available. a) Why is it that with their association with Toyota, that they don't reprogram the ECU and instead 'have' to use a piggyback? b) Since there is no public information on how to reprogram (anything of worth), where/how did they find out?

4) If they can so simply rewrite standard ECUs with their own data, why is there such a big market for both piggybacks and full standalone ECUs?

I'm not saying it's impossible by any means, however, unless you *are* the original manufacturer and have the source code to the firmware, then using a piggyback is simply quicker and simpler.

If you feel happy with the guy/company, then by all means choose them - just as long as you let me have a look at your ECU afterwards.  s:) s:)  What I will say (of course) is that we do have a tried, tested and trusted solution with the Unichip fitted & tuned at Millway.

[GSB]

The other day he had a standard Celica in, but couldn't alter it's ECU, so did nothing to the car. Apparently, he has already re-mapped a Roadster (or two) and I intend to ask a lot of questions and also talk to the owner(s), if possible.

This is where it falls apart for me:

1/ If he's already done a couple of roadsters, why does he need to examine your ECU to see if he can re-program it? The car has only been around for 3 years with no major changes.

2/ If he cant re-program a Celica, What makes him think he can re-program your car, which has the same engine? (assuming its the 1ZZ model of course, and also assuming of course that Toyota use different software for the 2ZZ - doubtful...)

It might be worth Martin or someone "in the know" phoning up this establishment and asking exactly what they intend to do. They could have stumbled on the holy grail of tuning and not exploited it, in which case Roger may have found a real gem, or they could be talking utter bollocks...

Personally I wouldnt be happy with any remapping unless I knew exactly how it worked.

[Anonymous]

Martin

Thanks for such a quick response. I'll print this topic post out and take it with me.

This is precisely why I shall be lapsing my MR2dc membership next April. I looked recently and since my 2 topics posted in late May there have only been 3 others on the Roadster. That's 5 posts and 3 of those had no response at all (2 of mine on brakes and TTE exhaust sound, plus one other).

I shall keep you informed on my findings.

Regards

  s:D s:D    s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

martin, markiii and Grant

I popped down to the motorsport workshop in Bromsgrove this morning. After spending a considerable amount of time crawling all over the car (including locating the air-bag sensor whilst they were at it) they located the OBD link-up. Despite 20 minutes of investigation they were not able to "talk" to the ECU so continued the hunt. Eventually it was located on the rear bulkhead behind the plastic lining of the near-side storage compartment. It is made by Denso. It was removed and the cover taken off to reveal all the pins on the board. What they were looking for was an
 EPROM, which my unit doesn't have. They use their own programme to re-write the eprom (if I have got that right) Using this method they say there is no likelyhood of damaging the engine.

At the same time they were working on a Golf 1.9 Diesel. That had a Bosch ECU, which they took out to re-programme and get 120bhp, instead of 90.

What they would like to do now is find an 03 model Roadster owner who is willing to go down. They can quickly whip out the ECU to see if it has a eprom. Any volunteers  s:?: :?: s:?:

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[Anonymous]

Now I'm really not a petrol head, but I don't see how re-writing the eprom can stop damage to the engine.  Any of the mappings wrong and they'll do all sorts of damage.

[SteveJ]

At this point I would be running for the hills - if they have genuinely worked on Roadsters before they would have known where the ECU was - it has always been in that location.

Secondly the fact that they had to hunt for the ODBII connector really scares me - the standard defining the connector also specifies it's location, and ours complies fully with this standard (even if the J-Spec cars seem to speak a different language through it!)

Finally I hope you never have to have the ECU swapped under warranty, as it will be obvious to any Toyota techie with half a brain cell that the cover has been removed from the ECU.

All in all this just lends weight to mph & GSB's feeling that they are talking a whole load of hot air.

Get a piggy back unit (like the Dastek) - we have the documented proof of the gains, and I personally can vouch for Millway's attention to detail and competency in setting them up (it's only when Martin and I get near the workshop things seem to go wrong  s:( s:(  - mph you know what I mean  s;) s;) )

[mph]

... This is precisely why I shall be lapsing my MR2dc membership next April.

But don't forget that MR2DC insurance (aka Dorset aka DIG) is very mod & track day friendly...

I popped down to the motorsport workshop in Bromsgrove this morning. After spending a considerable amount of time crawling all over the car (including locating the air-bag sensor whilst they were at it) they located the OBD link-up. Despite 20 minutes of investigation they were not able to "talk" to the ECU so continued the hunt. Eventually it was located on the rear bulkhead behind the plastic lining of the near-side storage compartment. It is made by Denso. It was removed and the cover taken off to reveal all the pins on the board. What they were looking for was an
EPROM, which my unit doesn't have. They use their own programme to re-write the eprom (if I have got that right) Using this method they say there is no likelyhood of damaging the engine.

They've done a few Roadsters before, yet didn't know where the ECU was? I could have told them where it was, along with the OBD port.

Would be v. interesting to see what commands they were trying to throw at it, but there certainly shouldn't have been any problems connecting to it... unless they forgot to turn the ignition on of course   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

I don't have a problem them with reprogramming an EPROM.. but how do they know what's on it, the data format, sequence, encoding etc etc etc.

My SMT ECU is a Bosch, perhaps they could 'remap' it so it gearshifts quicker   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:    s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

btw, removing the ECU requires messing with a tamperproof bolt, go figure.

[SteveJ]

Oh and on the subject of the Golf TDi, that's dead easy - simply get the EPROM from the higher output version of the same engine - all it does is increase waste gate pressure on the turbo turning the 90 into the 120 - simple!

Having done this, I know how simple it really is (actually done on an A3 diesel, but the ECU and engine are identical!)

[GSB]

I popped down to the motorsport workshop in Bromsgrove this morning. After spending a considerable amount of time crawling all over the car (including locating the air-bag sensor whilst they were at it) they located the OBD link-up.

They should really know that the specifications for OBD compliance dictate precisely how and where the port should be located. If I remember correctly it shoud be within a set distance of the steering wheel, and not hidden by covers etc. i.e. It should be pretty bloody obvious to someone who knows what he's doing... As for the airbag controller, (under the carpet, behind the ashtray mounted on top of the centre tunnel.) That's hardly the first place I'd be looking for an ECU in a mid engined car...

Despite 20 minutes of investigation they were not able to "talk" to the ECU so continued the hunt. Eventually it was located on the rear bulkhead behind the plastic lining of the near-side storage compartment.

And these people have supposedly worked on Roadsters before? What did they do, change the tyres?

It was removed and the cover taken off to reveal all the pins on the board.

As Martin has already said, the removal of the ECU requires the removal of tamperproof fixings. And I would imagine that opening up the ECU itself would require the breaking of some kind of tamperproof seals. This could have some warranty implications. To be fair though, they would be the same implications that you would have if you remapped it or added a piggyback ECU anyway, so you will have already been prepared for that, but if your ECU should ever be inspected I'd hide all the evidence and deny all knowledge. Thats my plan anyway!

What they were looking for was an EPROM, which my unit doesn't have. They use their own programme to re-write the eprom (if I have got that right) Using this method they say there is no likelyhood of damaging the engine.

Bollocks... If the software is not re-written correctly there is every chance of grenading the engine. I work with computer driven engine control systems for a living (although my engine is a little bigger and certainly an awful lot more powerful than you'd expect to find in a car!) including re-writing my engines equivalent of the "map" from time to time. I have seen first hand the carnage that can be caused by a miscalculation or mistake. Not pretty and not cheap...

What they would like to do now is find an 03 model Roadster owner who is willing to go down. They can quickly whip out the ECU to see if it has a eprom. Any volunteers  s:?: :?: s:?:

I doubt it... And anyway the '03 revision is cheifly a cosmetic one. the ECU will be tha same.

Roger, firstly well done and thanks for your efforts in at least having a go, its only by people taking the time and making the effort to do this that we will increase the number of options we have for the MR2 like the Unichip, Leda Suspension and the current and future products from Hayward & Scott. However while I commend you for your efforts, on the strength of what you have written I urge to go elsewhere.

This company seems to be leading you down the garden path. They appear to have NO knowledge of the Roadster or its layout, and no knowledge of Toyota Engine management systems. You have to remeber that you are trusting the future health of your engine to these people, and hence shoud trust that the technicians working on your car have a full and working knowledge of the systems within it. These guys dont fit the bill...

[Anonymous]

Having done this, I know how simple it really is (actually done on an A3 diesel, but the ECU and engine are identical!)

Yep, most VAG's can be even be done via the OBDII port, using a simple programmer, cable, and flash image you can buy yourself. I think 'Revo Technik' is the outfit; they advertise in evo amongst others.

[Anonymous]

Guys

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear yesterday. They have done work on MR2s, but not the Mk3.
The tamper-proof bolts have a pin in the centre stopping an ordinary socket from fitting. However, Hamish has a special set with a hole in the centre, so bolt removal was a piece of p*ss. It's a pity I didn't ask where the ECU is before I went. It would have saved him a lot of time and money. Reason being that he had previously said that if he couldn't do what he was hoping he could there would be no charge (normally £75 per plus VAT).

I take on board what you have all posted about the warranty issues. My car is well out of warranty. Knowing how MrT works they would probably throw out a claim even if someone had fitted a K&N filter! What would they do if Martin ever had a problem? Throw a complete wobbly!!? Unless, of course Martin has sold them some development rights  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  He was talking to TTE at JAE  s:!: :!: s:!:  

From what I have found out on how technicians should set up a car for a dyno run there is no way I would go back to Power Station in Cheltenham. The data produced for my car was a complete waste of time and money.

For those of you who may be interested this is their website  m http://www.hlmotorsport.com/ m

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[Anonymous]

You lost me with all your knowledge and technical jargon. Just one question, If you can gain 21-22 bhp what does this relate to in performance, (mph) give it to me straight.

[GSB]

Search....

http://www.mr2roc.org/viewtopic.php?t=60
http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=136

[Anonymous]

I've searched, can't find anything relating to bhp = mph. Any more ideas   s:?: :?: s:?:

[Anonymous]

I've searched, can't find anything relating to bhp = mph. Any more ideas   s:?: :?: s:?:

Martin(mph) is the man you want to talk to but he has documented his unichip experiences many times already so if he wants to chime in again then he's a patient man   s:? :? s:?  .

The unichip is primarily a piggy back system,along with many others, but this is a tried and proven addition that can actually be tuned in this country!!The beauty of it is as you add more mods the unit can be re-programmed to adjust fuel and timing to accomodate it.

Value for money it's a good investment as it can follow you from a std car to it's current test,in a turbo application, where it's work is more demanding but still able to deliver.

Can't believe more '2 owners haven't tried it for a comparison against Martin's figures.Anyone even thinking about it?

[GSB]

Yep, mine's booked in for the Unichip experience as a little christmas present to myself...