Was going to buy a roadster, not so sure now...

[PeteW]

Hi all

Apologies before I even start, this is a long rant about something you've all heard about!  I'm very sorry.  I shouldn't even waste your time with this but I'm itching to moan about it!

Well, I've been saving my pennies and searching the classifieds with a view to buying an MR2 roadster.  I've had a few MK1s in the past and wanted to get another MR2 so I thought I'd go for the Mk3 instead.  My heart was set on one.  A blue one, with a hardtop.

That was until I found a comment on PistonHeads about something I was previously unaware of, called "precats" (collective groan from readers...)

Someone there remarked that there was this inherent problem with the 1zz, so I looked further into it and found this forum.  I don't need telling to use the search function, I have spent most of yesterday afternoon, all of yesterday evening and most of this morning reading all the horror stories on this site, and the overall effect has been to totally destroy my confidence in this car.  All credit to the huge amount of knowledge on this forum but so far all it's done is made me less and less keen to buy a roadster.

I wanted the MR2 largely for the handling, followed by the fact that it should be hugely reliable and cheap to run.  I fail to see why I should have to worry about the car and also have to "modify" what is essentially a very new car to prevent the engine from eating itself   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

I can only really afford a used car so the chances are it will have covered a few miles and this problem may be manifesting itself already.  I don't see that it's feasible to ask every seller if it's ok to remove bits of the engine to check the precats, maybe a trader would be more agreeable but not private sellers.  I know there will be exceptions to this but in general I can see that being the case.

I don't intend to start another debate about precats or engine wear, whichever comes first, I've read all the information here and it's enough to genuinely put me off buying one.  Granted, the occurrence may be rare and the people here represent a small fraction of roadster owners and people only tend to post when they have a problem, etc, but who can tell how many people this has happened to who don't post here?

I would find it very difficult buying a car knowing that there could be a serious problem with it even before I buy it!  I know the chances are slim but if it ever did happen, I'd be kicking myself.  As you can tell, I'm a cautious soul.  I can afford the car, I can afford to run it.  I can't afford to stump up for a new engine with the costs mentioned on this forum, nor do I believe I should have to even worry about it happening in the first place!!  I'd be less worried if Toyota were happy to fix this or even do a recall but it is obviously not as simple as that   s:evil: :evil: s:evil:  

Sorry to rant about something that you've all heard a million times before but I need to get it off my chest.  I know this is a decision I can only make myself based on the information available.  I'm not looking for answers, I'm just airing my frustrations.  Toyota would be the right people to complain to I suppose!

I may be overreacting.  I may end up buying one, leaving the precats in for 150K miles and have no problems at all.  Or I might end up like one of the unfortunate people here who are on their third engine!  (Is my glass half empty or what..?!)

I totally expect to get reprimanded for bringing this up again as a first post!   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

[Two's Company]

I may end up buying one, leaving the precats in for 150K miles and have no problems at all.  Or I might end up like one of the unfortunate people here who are on their third engine!  (Is my glass half empty or what..?!)

I totally expect to get reprimanded for bringing this up again as a first post!   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

Firstly welcome    s:D s:D  

Secondly, you don't need to leave your precats in there if you buy one.  I gutted mine when it had done 18k miles and it's now on 37k with no adverse effects so far.  Don't let the issue put you off an excellent car, just do what you can to elimiate the problem and remove them.

[kanujunkie]

firstly Welcome to the club  s:D s:D  

secondly, yes the precat issue is a problem, but as with a lot of things it gets blown out of the water, perhaps we should start a thread saying who hasn't had their precats go, because there are far far more that are ok than the few who have had issues. Plus dont forget that if you remove the precats then you get better performance and no side affects at all. The precats were only put in so that the car could pass californian ULEV emissions tests. The job of removeing the precats will cost around £100 and then your good to go but rejecting the car because of a problem thats an easy fix is silly IMHO, the car is an excellent testbed for modding and touch wood after 52K of which 1200miles are turbo'd i've had no issues with the engine and there are loads of others in the same boat as me.

dont reject it, go for a drive and then evaluate it

[markiii]

well you've read all teh background so not a lot to add really.

statistcally however this happens less on post 03 cars and even less so before around 40K on the clock. (tghough yes there are exceptions0

in your shoes I'd try and hit both of those criteria and then have teh precats removed ASAP.

then I'd comfotable enough with my odds at avoiding it.

note nowhere did I say you are guaranteed to avoid it. it all depends on how comfortable  you are with risk.

[edward.carter]

I know its a pain to check the precats but if you buy from the trade you should be covered by a 3month warranty usually anyway (or similar). All i can say is buy one, gut the precats, i guarantee you wont regret it. The hassle of getting the precats checked beforehand will more than be made up for once you first go for that first blast with the roof down, I promise   s:D s:D

[spit]

Hi Pete.

As a fellow cautious soul I imported at a time when ignorance was bliss  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  , and had no issues with precat breakdown......

But I understand your concerns about the unknown history of any car that you go to view.

Its impossible to give you the "odds" against buying a duffer, but they are very much in your favour and there are things you can do to swing them well within your risk threshold. The guys have already mentioned some above.

Another good place to go would be to look at cars being sold by regular posters on here (under Cars for Sale). Chances are they'll have been de-pre-catted and fully assessed, and you'll get a full and frank story from the seller. Be a little more cautious of those who've joined the ROC just to sell their car though!

Finally, welcome. Hope you take the plunge and become a regular.

[roger]

Pete, welcome. I hope you change your mind and we see more of you.

I think we can all understand your concerns, but at the end of the day, go on any enthusiasts web site, and you will find "something" wrong with every car, especially early ones. IIRC MGF head gasket & S2000 gear box, to name but two.

The advantage of the 2s "problem", is that you can do something about it, and once done, the car is as solid as anything out there....well maybe except for the finish on the wheels, but thats another story   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Go for it, or if you don't, will you decide to put your head in the sand on your next choice, or seek out the "truth" of that one. If that's the case, you might never buy.

[PeteW]

Thanks for the replies and the welcome!  Secretly I was hoping that everyone would try to put my mind at rest   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I really do want one of these but am incredibly wary of the problems.  I'm not too comfortable with risks like this but I appreciate that it is a low risk and if I did buy one I would get the precats ripped out IMMEDIATELY!!  That I am sure of, there's no question of leaving them in.  My comment about leaving them in for 150k miles was theorectical!  I wouldn't ignore the advice from you guys, if I did that, I really would be putting myself at risk!

As a side comment, I did notice a couple of people who seemed to have removed the precats, then suffered huge oil usage shortly afterwards.  I did get to thinking that maybe whoever did the job may not have cleaned the chambers out totally and actually increased the amount of broken up ceramic material and making matters worse!  Instead of the previously intact material, there was now dusty broken up material instead.  As I understand it, you don't need much to kill the engine.  Just a thought...

I've been looking for cars on here but there doesn't seems to be many at the moment, but I can wait.  I have very specific requirements, i.e. must be blue with a hard top!  No other colour except maybe silver!  So I am prepared to wait for the right car.

My mind is slowly being put at rest after the initial shock of reading all those "precat" search results!  I think I'll keep an eye on the For Sale threads and maybe place a wanted ad as well, although I don't want to attract people who are just trying to sell their car as spit mentioned.  I would ideally buy such a car from an enthusiast anyway, I always have done with my previous cars.  Much better to buy from someone who is aware of the potential problems and who keeps an eye out for them.

Thanks again for the welcome, I've been browsing this forum for a while and you all seem very friendly, not always common on forums such as these I find!   s:D s:D

[GSB]

See, this is what happens when a problem gets blown out of all proportion by the rumour mill....  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  


Welcome Pete, to the ROC, which is, dare I say it, Europe's foremost english speaking information resource for the mk3 MR2.

Now, whilst the problem that has you so thoroughly spooked can be disasterous to the engines health, it isnt very common. More owners have crashed thier roadster's than have suffered sudden engine death, and its far less prevalent (by a collosal margin) than the likes of the MG-F's head gasket failure problem for instance.

I've said this before, but I wont bang on as you've searched, read, digested and asked pertinant questions (Gold star for the newbie please!), so I imagine you've already read it, but you shouldn't let the precat issue scare you off. Every car has its achilles heel, but even though our one can be catastrophic, its stunningly easy to prevent. Compare that to the MR2's natural competition, and I know you'll find that precats are the lesser of several evils in the automotive world. MGF, MX5, Elise... They all have issues, and some will spank your wallet an awful lot harder than the £15 worth of gaskets this requires to prevent..

Beware of the scaremonger's Pete, the internet is the worlds finest breeding ground for mis-information, rumour, and heresay, when the facts of the matter are that the problems is very very rare, and easily preventable. I've seen pre-cat degradation first hand, and it wasnt enough to stop me;

a) gutting the cats and carrying on for another 20,000 perfect trouble free miles before I part exchanged the car, and then
b) Driving a brand new roadster out of the showroom the same day. (I got rid of the precats within a few hundred miles though - £15 for piece of mind is, just like the car itself, a absolute bargain.

Post up your location in your profile, and I imagine that any of our more technically minded members will be more than happy to show you the ropes and perhaps inspect the odd pre-cat for you. Get your new MR2 to markiii's house in August, and we'll even gut them for you... Cant give you a better welcome than that, can we?

[GSB]

PS,

It just so happens that I know of an absolutley perfect, one owner, Blue MR2 coming up for sale in a month or so. It's only just 3 years old, with only 20,000 miles. It's got TTE exhaust, side skirts, rear bumper spats, red leather and the chrome pack, and is owned by my better half's cousin. I've personally inspected this car many many times, and can safely say there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, so it gets the GSB seal of approval... Certainly, If I were in the market for a second hand '2, it would be my first and only choice as I know the car, and know its been well looked after.

It has still got its precats though... and no hardtop, but they can be retro fitted rather easily anyway.

[Anonymous]

Hi all

Apologies before I even start, this is a long rant about something you've all heard about!  I'm very sorry.  I shouldn't even waste your time with this but I'm itching to moan about it!

Well, I've been saving my pennies and searching the classifieds with a view to buying an MR2 roadster.  I've had a few MK1s in the past and wanted to get another MR2 so I thought I'd go for the Mk3 instead.  My heart was set on one.  A blue one, with a hardtop.

That was until I found a comment on PistonHeads about something I was previously unaware of, called "precats" (collective groan from readers...)

Someone there remarked that there was this inherent problem with the 1zz, so I looked further into it and found this forum.  I don't need telling to use the search function, I have spent most of yesterday afternoon, all of yesterday evening and most of this morning reading all the horror stories on this site, and the overall effect has been to totally destroy my confidence in this car.  All credit to the huge amount of knowledge on this forum but so far all it's done is made me less and less keen to buy a roadster.

I wanted the MR2 largely for the handling, followed by the fact that it should be hugely reliable and cheap to run.  I fail to see why I should have to worry about the car and also have to "modify" what is essentially a very new car to prevent the engine from eating itself   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

I can only really afford a used car so the chances are it will have covered a few miles and this problem may be manifesting itself already.  I don't see that it's feasible to ask every seller if it's ok to remove bits of the engine to check the precats, maybe a trader would be more agreeable but not private sellers.  I know there will be exceptions to this but in general I can see that being the case.

I don't intend to start another debate about precats or engine wear, whichever comes first, I've read all the information here and it's enough to genuinely put me off buying one.  Granted, the occurrence may be rare and the people here represent a small fraction of roadster owners and people only tend to post when they have a problem, etc, but who can tell how many people this has happened to who don't post here?

I would find it very difficult buying a car knowing that there could be a serious problem with it even before I buy it!  I know the chances are slim but if it ever did happen, I'd be kicking myself.  As you can tell, I'm a cautious soul.  I can afford the car, I can afford to run it.  I can't afford to stump up for a new engine with the costs mentioned on this forum, nor do I believe I should have to even worry about it happening in the first place!!  I'd be less worried if Toyota were happy to fix this or even do a recall but it is obviously not as simple as that   s:evil: :evil: s:evil:  

Sorry to rant about something that you've all heard a million times before but I need to get it off my chest.  I know this is a decision I can only make myself based on the information available.  I'm not looking for answers, I'm just airing my frustrations.  Toyota would be the right people to complain to I suppose!

I may be overreacting.  I may end up buying one, leaving the precats in for 150K miles and have no problems at all.  Or I might end up like one of the unfortunate people here who are on their third engine!  (Is my glass half empty or what..?!)

I totally expect to get reprimanded for bringing this up again as a first post!   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

Hi Pete,

I think I must start by apologising to EVERYONE here as it may well have been me that actually started the debate on pre-cats over on Pistonheads. I was under the username "TheYeti" so, if you could confirm that it was me, I will put it all into context......

Basically, people were banging on about the new "entry" level Elise that will have basically the same engine as the Roadster. Now, there was a comparison of this with the original entry level K series engined Elise and I was pointing out that no engine or manfacturer is ever going to be 100% efficient in making utterly 100% reliabble engines. Hence the "pre-cat" debate started.

I won't go into the (long) details of this, but I was just pointing out that there HAD been some issues with this engine and people just should be aware, thats all. But, on the flip side of this, Grant has so eleoquently put it that the head gasket failure ratio on the K series is WAY higher than that of the engine failure due to the pre-cat problem.

I didn't want to scare anyone off buying ANY Toyota engined car whatsoever. I just pointed out something when the issue of reliablility was brought up. As I have now owned both the roadster AND the K series engined Elise, I can honestly say that I am a damn site more wary of the head gasket going on my Elise than I was EVER bothered by the pre-cats causing damage on my car before they were removed. It was done, very graciously, by Grant and a fine job he did of it. But it was purely precautional and seriously Pete, don't EVER let the pre-cat issue with the Roadster put you off buying one. Leaven them in, take them out, whatever. Like I said, having now owned both, I wouldn't hesitate in recommending the Roadster to people because next to the Elise, its the most fun you can have on four wheels this side of a cheap Caterham. Fantastic things..........

So, go out and buy one. You won't have any of the worries I am having with my (so far, trouble free, touch wood!) Elise.

[PeteW]

Hi again and thanks for the additional kind comments!  I know it's easy to get caught up with all the rumours but I'm just the sort of person to worry about them!  Maybe I should loosen up a bit  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Much as I'd love to go for a post '03 car, I currently have £9k to spend which won't (I don't think) stretch to the facelift model.

I'm thinking I may save a few more pennies and try to go for a newer model to minimise the (admittedly small) risk or try to find one with low mileage that has been looked after by a forum member or other knowledgeable person.

GSB - have you any idea how much your friend would be looking for?  I really would like AC and a hardtop, I believe they came together as an option but I could be wrong.  I also know that the easiest way to get a cheap hardtop is to buy it with the car it's already stuck to!  It does sound interesting though, PM me about the price etc if you'd prefer.

Failing that, I'd love to take someone up on the offer of help if I go to  look at any others.  I live near Swindon in Wiltshire but don't let that you put you off!

And.... John Woodward AKA TheYeti.  Hehehe!!  It was indeed your comments that put me on the trail of precats!  I was reading about the new Elise on Pistonheads (which I am considering as an MR2 alternative) and that's where you posted your comments!!  Now, do I thank you for bringing it to my attention or...?!  Just kidding.  I'd rather be armed with the facts before I buy.

Again, thanks for all your replies and to be honest I do hope that I can find a lovely problem free car that I feel confident about.  I don't really fancy driving to work in an Elise every day..

[markiii]

hardtop from teh factory always had aircon with it

aircon could be added as an option without the hardtop if required though

personally I'd be making sure you get teh aircon but the hardtop is easy and cheap to fit later, just needs a little patience for one to come up

[PeteW]

Thanks markiii, I wasn't sure exactly what the options were.  I'll bear that in mind.  Either way, I would want a hardtop if I buy a '2.  Practical reasons aside, I think they look great!

[Anonymous]

hi there and welcome.

not a lot really to add but having being one of the unlucky ones on here to have suffered from this i would still tell you to go for it. every time i drive the car it puts a smile on my face and even if it went again i still would not sell it.
since having the new engine i have done the same amount of mileage with absolutly no sign of the problem coming back. the car is currently on 75,000 miles. obviously there are no precats in and a new cat was put on when i had the replacement, but the help and advise i got on this forum about what to change and replace to prevent it happen again was first class.
like was previous said people only tend to shout out when they have a problem. im sure the none failures have outwayed the failures.
(p.s go for silver it is the best colour   s:D s:D  )

[leon_in_uk]

mate, my pre cats went on my car and ended up paying about £1500 to fix it..

all you need to do is buy a roadster. with pre cats intact, get them gutted and drive happily.

after all that has happened to mhy car i still love the little beast...

and as for colour i personally think that black is the best......

[PET3R]

I know you said blue, but this is a fine example   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  ,

Note: now with Dev's KH Covers!

 m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11345 m

[MRMike]

Why not inspect the pre cat condition before you buy the car? If they are whole you have absolutely no issue and can safely remove them once the car is yours.

Best of luck!

[PeteW]

Hi Pet3r!  That is indeed a fine example apart from one thing...  It's red!  (ducks for cover!!)  Seriously, and please don't take offence, I really don't like red cars!  It looks very nice but it's not for me unfortunayely.  Blue or Silver and that's it.  Fussy, aren't I?!

MRMike - Thanks for the good wishes!  I'd love to inspect the precats before purchase but I seriously doubt that all sellers would be happy for me to remove the O2 sensors on their cars.  If they do, then fine.  Maybe if they don't let me, I just walk away and end the viewing right there.  Maybe traders would be happier to let me do this but I just doubted whether most private sellers who are unaware of this issue would be up for it.  Has any one had any experience of this?!

I'm really starting to think "sod worrying about the precats thing" and just get out there and start looking...

[red_leicester]

I really don't like red cars!  It looks very nice but it's not for me unfortunayely.


Maybe if they don't let me, I just walk away and end the viewing right there.


I'm really starting to think "sod worrying about the precats thing" and just get out there and start looking...

- I have always disliked red cars as they're so common.  But the MR2 red is a lovely deep red, not that cheap bright red like Fiestas, etc.  IMHO.

- Yep, walk away.  If you're spending the best part of 10k on their car I'm sure they shouldn't mind you spending 15 mins undoing one sensor.

- At last!!!!   Just do it   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:     What you should also remember is that there is not a car on the road that is fault-free.  My last car was a VW and I had a roadspring fail at 35k miles.  Part of a car that you would expect to last for half a million miles.  (Not to mention the central locking problems, the door hinge failure, the driver's door lock failure, the numerous rattles (more than the 2 would you believe!), the unsolvable clattery engine noises on startup... and that was just in the 15k miles that I had it for!)

Rest assured that there are thousands of MR2s with precats in place, with no adverse effects.  There are problem cars, but they are a small minority.  If it's going to bother you that much, take it to somewhere like Silverstone Performance for the precat removal, who should do an A1 job according to other posts on here.

[Anonymous]

PeteW, I am not sure how much experience you have with sports cars but I personally haven't come across a single sports car that is as trouble free as a Lexus.

In my opinion, the main thing you need to keep in mind is that the same engine is not only fitted to the MR2 but the Corolla as well.  And for some, the Corolla is the pinacle of reliability.

By the way, I bought my car new 45 months ago.  It's done almost 37000 miles and the pre-cats are still in place.  I drive it hard at every (safe) opportunity and it has never complained.  The only thing that drives me mad is that a Civic Type R is quicker on straights.  And those huge gaps between panels.  And the cheap alloys.  And the rattles.  And the squeeky clutch.  And the cheap looking interior.  And...    s:P s:P

[PeteW]

Well, again - thanks for all the support and replies!  To Leon and Jonboy, I'm sorry to hear that you actually had to experience problems.  I'm sure your tales of woe were amongst the ones I read yesterday.  Glad to hear that all is well now.

You've done an excellent job of putting my mind at rest, or at least making me realise it's not such a huge problem after all!  I know I shouldn't worry too much really, I've had cars in the past that have supposed "issues", the E30 M3 cambelt at 100k miles for example which, as far as I could tell, turned out to be a load of rubbish.  Just another rumour mill blown out of proportion.

You've all calmed me down since earlier when I was so terrified I could imagine starting the first MR2 I looked at only to blast catalytic material 50ft out of the exhaust while the pistons were simultaneously whittled into thimble size pieces allowing all the oil to fountain spectacularly out of the manifold.  I now realise that's not really very likely.

Thank you all for putting me at ease.  I will continue my search and insist that I am allowed to examine the precats on anything I look at.  O2 sensor spanner is on order...

[Liz]

I've got a Porsche Boxster for sale if your interested!!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[PET3R]

You've only just bought that!

Besides, you sell your '2 and stop another person buying one, TRAITOR   s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

I've got a Porsche Boxster for sale if your interested!!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Eh? WHY?!!!!

You getting another 2? Couldnt stay away?

Or you got something else up your sleeve..........

If this has already been mentioned on here in another thread, my apologies but I don't get on here much that often anymore.......

Oh, and PeteW.............just do it!!! You really won't regret it. I actually miss my MR2 over my Elise sometimes!!! You will have the best time, look good, on the whole get 98% of the Elise experience and it won't cost and arm and a leg!!!

Go on!! Off you go!!!.........  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol: