Essen Motorshow Report - discussion

[mph]

Questions? Feedback? Please post here...

[Slacey]

Excellent write-up Martin, and great news... I can't wait to see further developments   s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

I agree with Sean, well worth the wait.

Q1:  How do i get my name put down for a free development turbo kit!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Q2:  Parts; They say they are willing to sell direct... does that mean that we could get something like the TTE springs or TTE Exhaust for a good discount instead of going to the dealer? If so, do you have any plans to have an arrangement in place to move this forward in the near future?

Thanks

Kris

[Tem]

"the supercharger, although quite possible was discounted on pure marketing terms ? ?turbo? sounds so much better than supercharger. "

 s:cry: :cry: s:cry:


"When asked about emissions, the target is that once fitted, the kit will meet the same Euro-3 environmental standard as the stock car currently does."

Personally, if it doesn't come with a Euro-3-approval, I'm not interested. Lets hope they can get one  s8) s8)


"At 180bhp, it was set to around 0.5bar, while for 200bhp it was set at 0.65bar."

Are those flywheel-hp or wheel-hp..?


"block itself twisting"

The downside of aluminum block  s:? :? s:?


"Straight after the turbo is a high performance catalytic converter, manufactured by HJS. Out of here is a down pipe that mates onto the existing primary CAT."

Use of primary cat sure sounds like Euro-3 approval  s8) s8)


You left one (unasked) question unanswered. Will they sell the kit as a kit only, or can one purcahse without some bits he thinks are of no use. For example the piggyback (if one already has a fully programmable ECU) or the fan with cut panels (if one has different hood)...?

[Comer]

Excellent report and good to see acknowledgement of the club by TTE.

Besides the TTE turbo I'd also be interested in the feasibility of fitting the engine bay cooling fan (in the photo on the report) to a car that has a not so cold air intake like the Apexi.

[Anonymous]

You left one (unasked) question unanswered. Will they sell the kit as a kit only, or can one purcahse without some bits he thinks are of no use. For example the piggyback (if one already has a fully programmable ECU) or the fan with cut panels (if one has different hood)...?

Whilst Martin et al will probably know for sure, my guess is that this kit is designed to be (as far as is possible) "plug'n'play", and so that probably means the parts won't be available seperately (certainly not officially, and therefore with the warranty).

True enthusiasts will always craft their own stuff anyway, and so TTE are primarily going for the "mass market" (well, it's all relative here   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  ), ie the man in the street, who can take his Roadster to MrT in the morning, and pick it up at the end of the day with a turbo.

[Tem]

Whilst Martin et al will probably know for sure, my guess is that this kit is designed to be (as far as is possible) "plug'n'play", and so that probably means the parts won't be available seperately (certainly not officially, and therefore with the warranty).

I'm sure the warranty would suffer, if someone leaves some parts out or replaces them with something else. Obviously the full warranty is only for the full kit.

But what if someone breaks a part with his own fault, so it won't be covered under warranty. One would assume he can go and buy just the broken part, not the full kit...?

[Sam]

Wow - this is excellent news   s:D s:D  

Firstly - Thanks Martin for the thorough write-up.

Its really positive that the club have met TTE - who with all their expertise in development and engineering are asking MR2-ROC for feedback and suggestions for development..... now where's that list gone   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

 I for one one would be very interested in the adjustable suspension kit, and it goes without saying I want that turbo. The only thing is the wait now....for approval by TMC, or the Summer....no chance of turning up on TTE's doorstep in January before then for a pre-approval install  s:?: :?: s:?:

I hope the we can keep the TTE dual exhaust with this kit.

Anyways - thanks to all you guys that headed out to ESSEN and made this happen.

[Anonymous]

good writeup Martin.
what we need now are the definates (price, power, lead time etc) - shame that they weren't forthcoming.

[Anonymous]

go to their dealer and use the up-rated clutch from the Corolla TS

Very interested to note this, wonder if it would pose any problems for the SMT, as I understand it the uprated clutches available do make the 2 grumble a bit  s:) s:)  

Gerald is interested in making a piggyback SMT controller to improve response times

That has to be the top of the list for the SMT brigade, I for one being new to the 2 fraternity already realised that the SMT is fantastic but flawed.


As for the Turbo, one thing surprises me (unless I missed it) what about the fuel pump. I know from experience that the part which is least looked at and most responsible for blown engines (look at Prodrives 300bhp Subaru kits and the plethora of blown engines mine twice). I might also be wrong but through friends, who know a hell of a lot more than me that the 2 runs very lean as a standard. Can we expect some nice bangs pops and whistles as we decelerate?  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   I think they mentioned that this would be a sign of problems  s:( s:(  




As to the write up...... Excellent, really pleased to see people passionate on their cars, working at improving the lot of everyone else.

WELL DONE , AND THANKS (look forward to the TTE purchasing forum  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  )

[Tem]

the 2 runs very lean as a standard

I believe it's just tuned that way...probably to reduce emissions. Not because the fuel pump would be maxed out.

[filcee]

Great write-up, well done!

One question:

Also located underneath is an air-scoop across the width of the engine bay forcing air up through the engine bay.

This does just force air into the engine bay and is not part of the air intake system for fuelling?  I have horrible recollections of the Lotus Sunbeam, for which the road-going version had the engine air intake mounted somewhere down by the sump.  Instant death for the engine in extreme wet conditions, like deep back-road puddles and fords.

Just out of interest, what would the effect be if a whole boat load of water was hoisted into the engine bay by this scoop, if, for example, there was no way to avoid a really deep puddle?  My primary concern would be the electronics.

Gerald is interested in making a piggyback SMT controller to improve response times

I think I'll be watching this with interest!

[Anonymous]

Excellent write up mate - ever thought of being a jorno ?

Anyway, I would also like to put my name down for a FREE beta testing   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[SteveJ]

Great write-up, well done!

One question:

Also located underneath is an air-scoop across the width of the engine bay forcing air up through the engine bay.

This does just force air into the engine bay and is not part of the air intake system for fuelling?  I have horrible recollections of the Lotus Sunbeam, for which the road-going version had the engine air intake mounted somewhere down by the sump.  Instant death for the engine in extreme wet conditions, like deep back-road puddles and fords.

Just out of interest, what would the effect be if a whole boat load of water was hoisted into the engine bay by this scoop, if, for example, there was no way to avoid a really deep puddle?  My primary concern would be the electronics.

The scoop is effectively 2 seperate items - first of all there are slots in the front of the 'nappy' for deflecting air up into the engine bay (these are also present on 'stock' cars). There is an additional scoop on the right hand side of the engine bay to push air in to help with general cooling.

Air for the engine is drawn from the stock position behind the battery, but the narrow pipe present between the airbox and the wing is replaced with a full bore pipe to allow the turbo to breathe.

Basically there is no danger of drowning the engine (certainly no more than stock anyway)

When I get a chance, I took some piccies (and video) underneath the car, but they need a little adjustment to make them useable (rather dark at the mo)

[Sam]

the 2 runs very lean as a standard

I believe it's just tuned that way...probably to reduce emissions. Not because the fuel pump would be maxed out.

When I had my unichip fitted - the tuners said I was running rich, and also that in future if I went Turbo the fuel injectors would easily be able to cope.

[Anonymous]

Hello Guys  s:) s:)  

on the german mr2site, a Guy named Michael, a ex former Alpine colaborator, with experience in turbos coments on tte turbo:

   "... air intake badly designed (180º of elbow)...downpipe leaves also at 180º (very bad for temperature and air flow)...intercooler is a joke, very small and under the motor, exposed to dirt...  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:    s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  
 
    ....the lampka turbo is clearly better designed...the turbo has an optimal air circulation...and have a water radiator...235HP AT 0.4 BAR pressure...."  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:    s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

        I know the turbo cames with a year garantie, on turbo, motor and transmission, is T.U.V. approved.
        I also know that the Lampka guys  says (they have said that to me two months ago)that the tte turbo has a heat problem, and that problem can only be solved with a water radiator.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

         I woul like very mutch that someone with more knowledge then me could verify those statments, in order to decide what turbo is the best.  s:?: :?: s:?:    s:?: :?: s:?:  

     Thanks

[Anonymous]

im pleased that it's all final coming together and hopefully by the end of it the Club and TTE will have reconition for all there work in this area   s:) s:)  

Also a group buy would be outstanding ! also getting a Gaff to fit all off them too !   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[aaronjb]

"... air intake badly designed (180º of elbow)...downpipe leaves also at 180º (very bad for temperature and air flow)...intercooler is a joke, very small and under the motor, exposed to dirt...  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:    s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

The bends are, undeniably, a bad idea.. But, there are plenty of cars out there with similar bends (my 300ZX had hideous bends in the turbo exhaust housing->downpipe), and they run fine up to fair ol' power figures. Still - without them would be better.
And on the IC front.. Well, good point about the size, but it's a kit designed for very modest boost levels, at which point the heating effect of the turbo should be minimal. And dirt? What about all those front-mount's that they run on half the front-engined turbo cars out there  s;) s;)  (Indeed, the IC's on my 300ZX were right in the path of water/crud virtually at road level..)
 

I also know that the Lampka guys  says (they have said that to me two months ago)that the tte turbo has a heat problem, and that problem can only be solved with a water radiator.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

Hmm - can't speak from MR2 experience, again, but from experience of various other turbocharged cars.

If Lampka are saying there is a cooling problem, only fixed by running a water radiator and water jacket on the turbo, I would be very sceptical - and put that down to marketing.. It's my firm belief (backed up by having dismantled most of my cars at one stage or another  s:D s:D ) that the water jacket around a turbo provides virtually zero cooling effect. Indeed, my 300ZX ran with no water jacket on one turbo (long story!) for several thousand miles - and upon disassembly and inspection, both turbos were in perfect working order, zero play and nice free-rotating shafts (plain bearing Garett T25's). That experience was backed up by my experience with Renault 5's, where most of the aftermarket turbos had no water jacket - mainly because their cooling system was pretty inadequate, and every little bit of heat you weren't putting into the rad helped!

If they're saying the engine needs a water radiator, then.. er.. lord help us  s:D s:D   s;) s;)

Bigger oil cooler probably wouldn't go amiss when running a turbo charged setup, however, as 99% of the turbo cooling comes from it's oil - which has a tendency to get your engine oil very hot if it's working hard (on track or hard road driving).

IMHO, E&OE  s;) s;)

Aaron

[Anonymous]

Great news Martin!

Few things for users:
- as martin clearly states turbo is designed to meet Euro 3... which means it will meet Euro 3.
- Lampka turbo - I am sure those guys are great, however they are having issues with their turbo setup and they have not started working on customer's cars yet. TTE does have some experience doesnt it?  s;-) ;-) s;-) , Besides they have been working on turbo for a while and that comment reffers to older version of their turbo setup. it is very important to them that turbo is a bolt on (fairly), that way they can offer full warranty to dealer installs, while Lampka offers warranty to their installs only. Also, TTE offers 3 years of warranty and most importantly it is a big ogranization - they can back their warranty up.

- TTE stuff from MR2ROC will be avail. only through group buys. Members will not be able to contact TTE directly (it is not a sales company)

- HP numbers that TTE shows are flywheel numbers (180 HP or 200 HP, compared to 140hp stock)

- You might be able to order certain parts of kit as spare parts, but expect them to be more expensive than when ordering the full kit. (this is from my experience in ordering, not official TTE)

- Of course you can keep TTE dual exaust - I would expect the car to run better with aftermarket exaust when turbo'd so they will probably also reccomend their exaust as well

One more thing - TTE has been developing kit for a while, dont worry about pump maxing out or injectors not being sufficient - they will make sure everything is as perfect as possible for their HP goal. Of course, if you want in the future to get more boost, you will need more fuel, but not for standard TTE kit.

[Anonymous]

TTE has been developing kit for a while, dont worry about pump maxing out or injectors not being sufficient - they will make sure everything is as perfect as possible for their HP goal.

I think this is the key point; in many respects comparing this kit with other available kit-like packages (but rarely totally complete) is an unfair comparison. Chalk and cheese.

I should think TTE have spent many, many hundreds/thousands of hours (and therefore money) developing the complete package, and you can be 100% sure that it'll work exactly as intended. They, and in turn, Toyota, won't put their name to it otherwise.

As I said above, if you're a real enthusiast, who'd rather spec and buy the exact parts you want, then this kit quite probably isn't for you, and neither is the reassurance and warranty that come with it. You only have to look at some of the troubleshooting threads on here and SC to know that the DIY-turbo route, and this kit, are not even close to being the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Questions? Feedback? Please post here...

I know this may be difficult, given your (and the clubs) relationship with TTE, but as someone who's been through the turbo process yourself, can I ask what are your opinions/thoughts on it?

[DAZ400]

Stock injectors used was there talk of a new fuel pump and regulator as part of the kit ?

[markiii]

Stock injectors used was there talk of a new fuel pump and regulator as part of the kit ?

really simple answer, no there wasn't.

[markiii]

"... air intake badly designed (180º of elbow)...downpipe leaves also at 180º (very bad for temperature and air flow)...intercooler is a joke, very small and under the motor, exposed to dirt...  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:    s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

The bends are, undeniably, a bad idea.. But, there are plenty of cars out there with similar bends (my 300ZX had hideous bends in the turbo exhaust housing->downpipe), and they run fine up to fair ol' power figures. Still - without them would be better.
And on the IC front.. Well, good point about the size, but it's a kit designed for very modest boost levels, at which point the heating effect of the turbo should be minimal. And dirt? What about all those front-mount's that they run on half the front-engined turbo cars out there  s;) s;)  (Indeed, the IC's on my 300ZX were right in the path of water/crud virtually at road level..)
 

I also know that the Lampka guys  says (they have said that to me two months ago)that the tte turbo has a heat problem, and that problem can only be solved with a water radiator.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

Hmm - can't speak from MR2 experience, again, but from experience of various other turbocharged cars.

If Lampka are saying there is a cooling problem, only fixed by running a water radiator and water jacket on the turbo, I would be very sceptical - and put that down to marketing.. It's my firm belief (backed up by having dismantled most of my cars at one stage or another  s:D s:D ) that the water jacket around a turbo provides virtually zero cooling effect. Indeed, my 300ZX ran with no water jacket on one turbo (long story!) for several thousand miles - and upon disassembly and inspection, both turbos were in perfect working order, zero play and nice free-rotating shafts (plain bearing Garett T25's). That experience was backed up by my experience with Renault 5's, where most of the aftermarket turbos had no water jacket - mainly because their cooling system was pretty inadequate, and every little bit of heat you weren't putting into the rad helped!

If they're saying the engine needs a water radiator, then.. er.. lord help us  s:D s:D   s;) s;)

Bigger oil cooler probably wouldn't go amiss when running a turbo charged setup, however, as 99% of the turbo cooling comes from it's oil - which has a tendency to get your engine oil very hot if it's working hard (on track or hard road driving).

IMHO, E&OE  s;) s;)

Aaron

Gerald actually stated that done properly (Ithink we can assume they have) and air to air is acyually better than an air to water.

[markiii]

im pleased that it's all final coming together and hopefully by the end of it the Club and TTE will have reconition for all there work in this area   s:) s:)  

Also a group buy would be outstanding ! also getting a Gaff to fit all off them too !   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

was that a hint?