Ultimate N/A 1ZZ

[Anonymous]

In the next few weeks I will be parting with a serious wedge of cash for Rogue Systems to build me a crazy N/A 1ZZ engine. My old engine  was fitted with stage 1 crower cams by Dastek has picked up a massive oil use problem 3.5L/200miles. It was fine before the cams, but that is another story....

So, I thought it is prudent to get input from wiser folk than me on the details:

Full strip, machine, clean, rebuild
1.93L forged pistons  & sleeves
11:1 compression
20% uprated valve springs
Crower forged rods
ARP fasteners
Mild port + 3-angle seats
Matched head to maniold ports
Crower stage 1 cams (from my old engine)

[wonder what this thing will rev to??]

I am still considering a few things:

- stick with stage 1 cams or go for stage 2?
- go low compression instead so I can fit this supercharger that is lying in my living room
- stick with high compression for better economy & £270 insurance (elephant.co.uk quote for upto 210bhp N/A modified, compared with £550 for supercharged engine)

Anyone have comments or other recommendations? I may as well get it all done in one build eh!

[Anonymous]

Depending on how much they're charging you, I'd seriously consider either a 2ZZ or a K20A swap instead. If the engine is coming out anyway, the 2ZZ isn't that much of an issue to do and will still be streetable with a few bolt-ons at about 200bhp, or the K20A is going upwards from there as stock.

FWIW I've heard nothing but bad things with regard to the 2.0L overbore kit, presuming it's the MWR kit they're using. You think you had oil usage problems before...


If you already have the S/C (and all the associated bits) then I'd source a new 1ZZ and fit that on a stock engine. Same power, arguably more reliability, no need to mod the engine internals for that little power.

[evileye_wrx]

For the money your talking about for an engine rebuild, £2000 for the parts then fitting, would you not be better off going for a turbo? Bhp increase for either a rebuilt n/a engine or supercharger aren't going to be as good as a medium power turbo. Even the little PE turbo gives more than either. From all I've read a rebuilt engine just isn't worth the expense in terms of 'bang for bucks' likewise a supercharger. £4000  for 190bhp doesn't come close to £2700 for around another 10 on top of that.

[Anonymous]

In the old days, with this stage of tune, the power will only come in at ever increasing revs so gear ratios play an important role. (shoot me down here guys because of the VVT???). But the wilder the cam then the more effect there will be somewhere.
With the supercharger you should get torque and power from low down, as you should with the turbo, albeit with a little lag.
I guess it depends upon what you want to use the car for.
I do like the idea of the modded engine because it is a different and perhaps a more sophisticated approach from the norm.
But then I'm old fashioned!

[Anonymous]

I guess really the first question shuld've been what does the OP prefer engine-wise? I was presuming a high-revving N/A engine after the comments about raising the rev limit and using high-comp pistons and cams, but the question remains.

If I'm right, then no turbo will ever feel right (not even the PE kit) as there will always be lag. I'm guessing this is why he's omitted it as an option.


With the 2ZZ now a serious option (I'd see what Woodsport can do here with regards to that) I see no reason to seriously consider a stripdown and re-build of a 1ZZ unless going FI.

[loadswine]

Get a V6 in there! Rogue can do those as well. A very driveable solution and easy to use. Gives about the same power as a 2zz, but much greater torque and a super soundtrack.
For my money, I'd make the extra trip up to Woodsport for it, but go with your preference.  s8) s8)

[Anonymous]

I guess this desire for stupid revving N/A goes back to the old days when I was tuning A-series engines to 100bhp (WOW!! SHOCK!!) at 8000rpm!! It is just a bit different from the usual F/I solution! I mean if I was after raw power then I would p/x the car at a dealer for a Evo!!

By my estimate, running stage 1 cams with this build should be a touch over 190bhp with stage 2's over 200bhp - so not much off a turbo + no lag! Add in the increased rev range drivability reeled in by retarding the VVT.....

I am worried at the talk of poor oil consumption with the overbore kit....I will discuss this with Rogue tomorrow. If the 1.93L thing is not a go-er then I will certainly lean toward low comp and slap on the s/c.

FYI, total cost, drive-in/drive-out around £5000. Even typing it makes me feel ill...

[Anonymous]

I am scared by the thought of a heavy V6 in the rear of the MR2...Makes me think of that Golf previewed on top-gear...The one with a 600bhp Ferrari engine which would not corner....

I will speak to them about the 2ZZ option though.

[Anonymous]

Bear in mind a 1ZZ is identical to a 2ZZ in terms of both power and torque until lift kicks in around 6200rpm. With that in mind, the 2ZZ would be a better option for you I think that a built 1ZZ, especially if you consider the natural issues that a built engine will have.

Maybe take a test drive in an Elise R to see how you get on with the engine?

[Anonymous]

£5K for that - you must be mad, if I'd got that much to spend I certainly wouldn't bother with that up-grade, you would do better getting a newish secondhand 1zz and put a Rotex SC on it.  

You are also forgetting suspension, brake and bracing mods you will need to make it handle correctly and stop  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

[loadswine]

Its really not an issue with the weight of the V6 , I know as I have one.
I don't know where in the country you are, but you are welcome to have a spin in mine if you aren't too far away.
As for a free revving engine, a Fidanza flywheel on the V6 and you're into a very willing piece of kit.
At the end of the day, i hope you enjoy whatever you go for.

[Jaik]

If you're having all that engine work, having it all properly dynamically balanced would be a good idea. Would rev more freely and allow you to rev it higher too.

That's all based on "what I've heard" so take it as something to look into if anything.

[ChrisGB]

In the next few weeks I will be parting with a serious wedge of cash for Rogue Systems to build me a crazy N/A 1ZZ engine. My old engine  was fitted with stage 1 crower cams by Dastek has picked up a massive oil use problem 3.5L/200miles. It was fine before the cams, but that is another story....

So, I thought it is prudent to get input from wiser folk than me on the details:

Full strip, machine, clean, rebuild
1.93L forged pistons  & sleeves
11:1 compression
20% uprated valve springs
Crower forged rods
ARP fasteners
Mild port + 3-angle seats
Matched head to maniold ports
Crower stage 1 cams (from my old engine)

[wonder what this thing will rev to??]

I am still considering a few things:

- stick with stage 1 cams or go for stage 2?
- go low compression instead so I can fit this supercharger that is lying in my living room
- stick with high compression for better economy & £270 insurance (elephant.co.uk quote for upto 210bhp N/A modified, compared with £550 for supercharged engine)

Anyone have comments or other recommendations? I may as well get it all done in one build eh!

First off, why have you got a major oil consumption problem? You need to know if it is blowing away around the rings, down the breather, leaking out elsewhere, cracked cyl head etc before doing anything to the engine.

The big bore kit I have heard is OK for track use but uses far too much oil to be viable for a road car.

You only need the uprated valve springs if you are going stage 2 or above with the cams. This is not a good idea IMO as the engine is internally dimensioned to be a mid range lugger, not a high end screamer. You will need an Apexi PFC or similar added to your budget if you are going for more revs. The stock ECU limits you with a Unichip or Emange or other piggyback.

I dont think there is much to come from porting. This engine already does well for a long stroke 1.8L and it already has trick valve seats.

Options for you if you do not want to go turbo:

Used 1zz with Crower stage 1 cams. You will need a Zero manifold and an Apexi PFC for 164bhp, or possibly a PPE and Camcom (researching this at the moment so don't quote me on it) which should / could make similar power. The PPE / Che manifold and exhaust combi is filling the cylinders so well that pulling timing forward with a Unichip would not work on my engine, the ECU knock sensor just pulling timing back as fast as the tuner took it forward.

Used 1zz with one of the Supercharger kits from SC that are about to launch.

2zz conversion. (Given your appetite for a decent rev range this is IMO the one for you).

V6 Conversion.

Chris

[loadswine]

Thinking about this and having read your original post, I'm in agreement with Chris and Dan, the 2zz will probably suit you best.
I really would check with Woodsport as well before deciding on where to get it done.

[evileye_wrx]

There is always Steve Velocity for 2zz conversions. What ever happened to Steve? Haven't seen him post in quite a while.

[heathstimpson]

I would really question if 5K for that work is really worth the end result  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:    s:? :? s:?

[loadswine]

Good point Heath, you can get an awful lot of conversion for 5k.

[ChrisGB]

Good point Heath, you can get an awful lot of conversion for 5k.

And given that there is no PFC in that budget, which will be needed to let it rev into the area where the stage 2 cams work best, the price will only go up as well.

Chris

[Anonymous]

I guess this desire for stupid revving N/A goes back to the old days when I was tuning A-series engines to 100bhp (WOW!! SHOCK!!) at 8000rpm!!

How did I know you'd done something like this?
Stuffed a 1.5 MGA engine into a Mk1 950cc Sprite and boy, in a straight line it was really good! Corners, wellll.

These days they seem to say that the engines are fundamentally more efficient and therefore the 'old' mods will not produce so much gain.

There is still something unsophisticated about just forcing more mixture into the engine; why not mod the engine and then supercharge it? (only joking!)

[fstsven]

If I were you, I'd do a 2ZZ swap. Even in stock trim, that's a cracking high-tech engine, nicely powerful and revving to heaven, with sharp and direct throttle responce (one of the reasons I'm not really a forced induction fan). If you feel the need later on, you can start building on that. I personally wouldn't waste money trying to tune a 1ZZ (beyond the obvious breathing mods): it's a fine enough engine, but in the end not a purpose-built performance one.

[custardavenger]

Quick question for those that might know.

Is the problem with the Overbore kit from MWR to do with the piston clearance or is it a quality issue?

[markiii]

headgasket sealimg

[custardavenger]

Oh right. Surely that can be fixed with a copper gasket rather than the machined down standard one?

[markiii]

it needs a custom gasket

the MWR one supposedly uses a remilled 2zz gasket which is reportedly crap

those who have had a proper one made have had no issues

[Anonymous]

As other said above rather go 2zz. A greatly tuned 1zzfe is a stock 2zzge engine, so why doing it? If you feel to have something tuned then get a 2zzge and have that done. N/A tuning is allways more expenixive copmared to  F/I. it is interesting thou.

BTW: I would mostly add crower TITANIUM rods and a light FWheel to save weight. PP, cams, springs, good EM.