Do Wings and Big brakes help the roadster?

[Anonymous]

 m http://www.mr2roc.org/viewtopic.php?t=1989 m

Looks like you guys know a few things   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Looking forward to the price list of parts   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Oh and love the demo car   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

Oh and love the demo car

Which part, the wing on a car that understeers not over, or the huge stoppers that not even the GT3 team bothered with?   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Sorry couldn't resit, go about your business.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

but theres not much angle on the wing and the reason i think they may have " big stoppers " is so when racing for long periods of time they dont fade or get over used!

Its better to have somthing big that can do the job easier and more efficent than having small calpiers that struggle and are not efficent

  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   i sound so inteligent   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

But the MR2 doesn't need them, the Japanese GT3 used the stock disc's with upgraded pads and did fine racing.  Most of the "BIG" power MR2 have used the standard disc's also.  Drilled discs just look bling bling and eat pads.  I think just about the only reason you would need disc's like that on a MR2 is to stop the rust.

Also to get anything from a wing on a MR2 it has to be REALLY big, and doesn't really help that much.  The MR2 is all about its light front end, so yeah maybe that front splitter might help, but its nothing a little chassis bracing won't fix anyway.

I'm sure Cins 2ZZ MR2 does ok without a wing.

ANYWAY i'm only picking because this is double posted in performance, and I cringe when I see a "performance" label stuck on any wing or big discd MR2, I won't go into the big wheels    s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I should just shut up, i'll probably end up buying something from them (if they will sell me anything now) and new suppliers is always a good thing... hmm... I wonder if they do head work...   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

only if you asked nicely WD   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

 s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

But the MR2 doesn't need them, the Japanese GT3 used the stock disc's with upgraded pads and did fine racing.  Most of the "BIG" power MR2 have used the standard disc's also.  Drilled discs just look bling bling and eat pads.  I think just about the only reason you would need disc's like that on a MR2 is to stop the rust.

ANYWAY i'm only picking because this is double posted in performance, and I cringe when I see a "performance" label stuck on any wing or big discd MR2, I won't go into the big wheels    s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I should just shut up, i'll probably end up buying something from them (if they will sell me anything now) and new suppliers is always a good thing... hmm... I wonder if they do head work...   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Hi WD,

The brakes fitted to that car happen to be the one of best brake setups in the world. They are not just for show! Trust me they are better than any stock set-up!

I see your point on the wings, we sell these as an appearance item rather than performance.

90% of our products are performance enhancing - we are not an all show, no go company like many of our competitors are...

Anyway - I look forward to your order in the future  s;) s;)

Thanks for the enquiries so far  s:) s:)

Best Regards,

Gareth.

[Jap GT300]

Isn't that APR's demo car?  Is it now in the UK?  

I found a picture of it at SEMA.

[dreambackup]

I guess, about the brakes upgrade, figures would tell us if it's just for the looks or really an improvement...

Let's say 100-0 mph and 60-0mph comparisons (upgraded vs stock)...

[Anonymous]

Isn't that APR's demo car?  Is it now in the UK?  
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I did say:

Heres one of our suppliers demo cars, which we can supply everything from:

I think Buster must have missed that...

Best Regards,

Gareth.

[Anonymous]

Let's say 100-0 mph and 60-0mph comparisons (upgraded vs stock)...

Its a good comparison, an even better one would be a lap time with and without  s:) s:)

I don't have the figures as they aren't publicised however I am sure Stoptech have this information...

Heres the specs on the brakes:

Toyota MR2 Spyder 2000+ Front Wheel Brake Kit, 2-piece 328x28mm slotted or drilled rotors (floating design), 7075 T-6 Billet Aluminum directional hats, 4-piston calipers Red or Black painted, AXXIS Ultimate high performance street pads, DOT compliant stainless steel front brake lines.

Best Regards,

Gareth.

[juansolo]

I guess, about the brakes upgrade, figures would tell us if it's just for the looks or really an improvement...

Let's say 100-0 mph and 60-0mph comparisons (upgraded vs stock)...

There will be absolutely no difference.  It's a common misconception that big brake kits stop your car quicker.   In most casees they do not.  If you can lock the wheels with the standard set up this is certainly the case, if you've got ABS even more so as this is calibrating the braking for you.

In fact changing them can cause more problems than it addresses given that replacing only the front brakes with no thought to the rears can throw the brake bias completely to pot.  Certainly if you are going from single pot sliding calipers to massive 4-pot calipers.  As suddenly you're needing to pump much more fluid to the front to push the pistons in.  

This can mean that you may need a new master cylinder as the old one may not be up to shifting the extra fluid.  It may also mean that you have much more pedal travel than there used to be.  In this situation you will more than likely need a brake proportioning valve in the rear line to stop them now locking up before the fronts (not an issue if you are running a dual master cylinder set up).

Reasons to change brakes, other than cosmetic, can range from wanting greater feel and adjustability to reducing overheating and fade.  9 times out of 10 overheating and fade can be solved with a change of brake pad compound and a fluid change to DOT5.1 or something like Castrol SRF that has a much higher boiling point.  After this it's better to look to ducting more air to the brakes if you are still having issues before moving on to more drastic measures.

Drilled disks also tend to destroy pads at a massively accelerated rate and are more prone to cracking than solids in relation to any barely noticable cooling/wieght benefits you may get.

I'll say it again, unless you are racing you really don't need to mess with the stock set up on the Mr2.

If you must, paint 'em red or something.

[Anonymous]

ENVY: sorry about missing the "suppliers" bit   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Juansolo:
Dont want to start a war here but surley bigger brakes will improve lap times and make it stop quicker ! as the brake lines are the same diameter and the same amount of fluid etc and master cylinder volume is used, right got all that

But you have more surface area on a bigger disc for friction to take place as it's the same force on the calipers but over a larger area meaning more surface area for the pads to work on !

I may have this completly round my head but its only my reasons   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

What I think Juan is saying is that cooling excepted, the limiting factor on how quickly you stop isn't the brakes, it's the tyres.  So bigger brakes will not stop you any more quickly.

[Anonymous]

Quite simply the Mk3 is just about one of the fastest stopping cars on the road.  The only way to get it to REALLY stop any faster is better rubber for more grip.

I'm sure everyone here has made his ABS fire up at some point.  You don't need bigger disc's to stop faster, you need better rubber to get more grip.  The ABS is coming on because the tires have lost traction.

Its been proven time and time again, in racing here, Japan and the US.  It doesn't get any better that the stock set up.

[Anonymous]

ok point taken    s:) s:)   thanks for explaining it, mechanical ant my thing   s:D s:D

[juansolo]

What I think Juan is saying is that cooling excepted, the limiting factor on how quickly you stop isn't the brakes, it's the tyres.  So bigger brakes will not stop you any more quickly.

Absolutely correct.  The tyres are the key.  I half the stopping distance and go much faster around a circuit in the Westfield simply by fitting track rubber.  It's the single cheapest and biggest performance mod you can make to a car.  But then that puts added stress on the brakes, suspension, chassis, bearings, enigine, etc so your car has to be up to it (this is how I blew an engine so don't just think you can fit slicks without factoring in the stresses it puts on a car first).

Look at it this way:  If you can lock your wheels, bigger brakes are not going to make you lock your wheels any 'better'.  They *may* help you modulate your braking better by providing more feel though the pedal.  

Though this can be down to many other factors including pad compound fluid and hoses.  Replacing the flexible hosing with aeroquip is purely to remove any sponginess there might be in the pedal.  The theory is that when the fluid heats up, the hose becomes more flexible and can expand under pressure when you press the pedal.  Aeroquip hosing prevents this.

Changing the pad compound can make a dramatic difference also.  Track compounds that operate at higher temperatures may not be suitable for road use and can actually be detrimental the the braking of your car.  This is because they need to be brought up to temperature before they are at there optimal effectiveness.  This is why often stock pads can seem to have better initial bite than performance pads.  Because there optimal operating temperature is much lower.  So again, in most circumstances stock is actually preferable.

[MRMike]

For me it wouldn't be about stopping quicker once..it's about stopping fast over and over again, which bigger pot stoppers, and uprated pads and fluid should effectively do.  However I can see WD's point, as I had a 206 GTI which had 4 pot stoppers all round, top spec fluid, and red stuff pads, drilled and grooved Tar Ox discs.  It sounds impressive but real world there is no way it stopped any quicker because:-

A: Sometimes it wouldn't stop at all because the pads took such a long time to get to op temp
B: There was no feel what so ever in the pedal and modulating the brake pressure was impossible, the brakes were simply 'on' or 'off.
C: As the ABS wasn't recalibrated, and the power of the brakes when working correctly was immense it would just trigger the ABS as soon as I hit the brakes.
D: The ESP didn't no what the hell was happening when the car was braking.  So if you fitted a big brake kit like i did to an SMT i think the computer would have similar problems interpreting what was going on.

All in all it was a nightmare, whilst I feel that current brakes will fade under extreme provocation i'd be really really wary of changing the set up like I did last time.  

However I'm sure ENVY would recommend suitable upgrades not like the muppits who did my last car (Only concession to stay on thread!)

[juansolo]

For me it wouldn't be about stopping quicker once..it's about stopping fast over and over again, which bigger pot stoppers, and uprated pads and fluid should effectively do.

Fluid yes, uprated pads yes.  Bigger/multipot not neccessarily.  The reason to have them is to apply even pressure over a larger proportion of the pad.  Which is of course, a good thing.  The cooling benefits are not as large as is sometimes made out.  This has as much to do with the heat transfer characteristics of the material the caliper is made from as it does the upright it's bolted to and indeed the wheel bolted to the hub.  Not to mention the disk and pads themselves.  Ducting would have a larger effect if cooling is an issue.

As for fade, I've yet to make mine fade on it's all standard set up and it's not like I haven't tried.  TBH most people who boil their fluid do so by parking up and putting their handbrake on straight after a 20 minute track session.  This transfers all the heat into the fluid rather than letting the system cool. ...I've done it.  It's something you don't do again believe me.

[MRMike]

According to others on the board I think i boiled my fluid when i did notice them fading a few weeks back, and as they pointed out some new higher spec fluid will cure that.  

So that's the only brake mod that i'll be carrying out!

[juansolo]

In fact if performance is your goal and you must uprate the standard setup this is how I'd go about it:

1.  Swap the fluid for a DOT5.1 fluid that has a higher boiling point than DOT4 at the sacrifice of feel (not that I've ever been able to tell the difference).

Castrol SRF which is DOT4 but with a much higher boiling point than normal DOT4 fluid (higher than DOT5.1 also), is the best fluid out there and has a price tag to match.  There are other competition fluids out there but that is the daddy.  Utterly excessive if you're not tracking it and under most circumstances you'd be better off with a cheap as you like DOT5.1 fluid.

AVOID - Silicone based DOT5 fluid.  You must NEVER mix a silicone based fluid with DOT5.1 or DOT4.

2.  Bung some aeroquip hosing on there.  For the reasons mentioned in the above post.  Again I'll be suprised if you ever get the fluid hot enough to tell the difference.  But like the fluid, there is logic to the upgrade and it's sound.

3.  Try some different pads.  Carbon metallic pads are quite evil (Hawk for example), amazing things at the cost of your disks which they will wear very quickly.  The cheap and cheerful option would be Mintex.  I use these on my track car (the Westfield).  1144 compound would be fine for road and track use.  1155 if you're still having trouble.  If you've got plenty of money check out the likes of Pagid.  Not cheap but again, very serious kit.

Replace both the front and rear with the same compound.  Mixing and matching can create some very strange anomalies.  At least if you use the same all round you know that the rears aren't going to get up to temperature before the fronts which could cause all sorts of brake balance strangeness.

This is where I'd leave it but if you are still having issues:

4.  Fit some ducting.

Then and only then, if I still had issues, would I look at the disks, calipers, master cylinder, etc.

[MRMike]

Great Post! I think you deserve an honorary knighting as the resident brake man

[Anonymous]

arh so a good fluid change is on order to keep the brakes working ok

thanks for explaining it more guys   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

The cooling benefits are not as large as is sometimes made out.

In fact I think the main reason for drilling disc's in racing is to reduce weight rather than cool as many people think.

However I'm sure ENVY would recommend suitable upgrades not like the muppits who did my last car (Only concession to stay on thread!)

Yes, i'm not having a go at ENVY and i'm sure i'll end up spending money   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[juansolo]

 s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  Why thank you.

I have no problem with people fitting big brake kits for cosmetic reasons.  Each to their own as I've already said elsewhere.  

I have no problems with people fitting them where they're really needed.  Like a tracked Subaru Impreza which is a perfect example of a car that has standard brakes that just aren't up to the job.  

It's when people set out to fix something that's not broken in the name of performance that I struggle to keep quiet.


Disclaimer:  This is all of course IMO.  What is right for one is not neccessarily right for another...