Do Wings and Big brakes help the roadster?

[Anonymous]

The prat in the mondeao that pulled out in front of me knows how good the 2's brakes are!.  Any quicker and I would have been through the windscreen and slapping him!

[juansolo]

The cooling benefits are not as large as is sometimes made out.

In fact I think the main reason for drilling disc's in racing is to reduce weight rather than cool as many people think.

Indeed.  I think I mentioned it somewhere but then I've typed quite a lot this evening.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  Other reasons that I've seen quoted are that it's to vent gas build up between the pad and the disk and, certainly in the case of slotted/grooved disks, to de-glaze the pads to help with initial bite.  Whether or not this is bishop I have no idea.

[Anonymous]

...that cat pic is the funniest thing i've ever seen...

[juansolo]

Someone from another forum was very bored and had a lime, a knife and a cat all in close proximity...

Made me chuckle a lot, esp considering how pissed off the cat looks.

[Anonymous]

LOL   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

a lime!!!!! the cat must be very small

[Peter Laborne]

Let's say 100-0 mph and 60-0mph comparisons (upgraded vs stock)...

Its a good comparison, an even better one would be a lap time with and without  s:) s:)

  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:    s:roll: :roll: s:roll:    s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

Then I ask, why does the Jap GT team not use HUGE disks? Why do they use standard disks?

They will have done loads and loads of testing. Trying 'uprated', bigger, disks verses the standard disks. At the end of the day they have discovered that the standard disks cannot be beaten. They are the best. If they weren't they surely the GT team would have used something else.

[juansolo]

Just to play devils advocate a little...

You can always do better, but the law of diminishing returns very much applies when it comes to cost vs performance.

[MRMike]

Okay Juan's playing devils advocate so i want a turn..We've only currently considered conventional pads and disks....what about Porsche style ceramics/carbon composites..they're supposed to really improve performance wait till they become available...

[markiii]

true, but braking is like power, doesn't matter how much of it there is if you don't have the traction to transfer it to the road.

I used to think teh brakes on my old Rover were crap, then I realised that the brakes were fine, I could lock up the wheels at 10mph the problem was the brakes stopped the wheels but the 175 rubber couldn't stop the car.

[mph]

Okay Juan's playing devils advocate so i want a turn..We've only currently considered conventional pads and disks....what about Porsche style ceramics/carbon composites..they're supposed to really improve performance wait till they become available...

The stock pads are pretty reasonable, though against Juan's comments, I find they do fade after 10mins on track. I'm currently running Mintex 1144s - I don't particularly think these are any much better than stock, but are much more resistent to heat.

[aaronjb]

Speaking of big brakes - I pulled up next to a new(ish) Audi RS6 this morning.. Crikey - thats one big set of stoppers! (The calipers were the biggest calipers I've seen on a road car, with enormous discs to match). Then again, it weighs as much as a cruise liner, so needs them  s;) s;)

The brakes on the '2 do seem pretty good on the road - so far I've hardly needed to touch them, although I haven't had the ABS kick in, and I do drive like a granny  s:) s:)

There are cars out there that really do need better calipers, though (even if the '2 isn't one of them) - my old 300ZX certainly fell into that category..

Aaron

[juansolo]

Okay Juan's playing devils advocate so i want a turn..We've only currently considered conventional pads and disks....what about Porsche style ceramics/carbon composites..they're supposed to really improve performance wait till they become available...

The stock pads are pretty reasonable, though against Juan's comments, I find they do fade after 10mins on track. I'm currently running Mintex 1144s - I don't particularly think these are any much better than stock, but are much more resistent to heat.

To be fair, running 200+ bhp will make the speeds your braking from and indeed the amount you are braking, greater than a boggo Mr2.  That's more than likely why you're having issues with the standard pads and 1144's.  Try 1155's or see what Pagid have on offer for your Mr2.

[ChrisGB]

A few thoughts on the brakes. The stock items are pretty much as good as it gets for road use. Being designed for road use, they will obviously not fare too well on sustained track use. This is a good thing. If the brakes were optimised for the track, they would be less good for road use. A change of pad compound should see the brakes OK for track use in most cars.

Going to drilled or grooved disks is worth doing if you are seeing fade from the existing set up. As far as I understand, the drilling or grooving is there to help get fade gasses out from under the pads. If it were removing glaze, this would infer the pads were working above their useful temperature and would soon go off completely as the glaze layer grew into the pad surface.

Going to bigger callipers on stock size discs will not help much with heat dispersal in the system as a whole, though it will drop the pad temp a bit. Going for bigger discs will increase leverage on the wheels and give a bigger heat dispersing area. So if fade is your problem and compound wont fix it, bigger callipers and disks are the answer. The downside it that you raise unsprung mass.

Thus far, I have found the stock set up to be better than any system I have had before. The car is due a brake fluid change at next service, so will probably change to braided hoses then. Doing this for the feel. What's good in braided hoses for the '2?

Chris

[kanujunkie]

Being designed for road use, they will obviously not fare too well on sustained track use.

Bollox!, what are you basing that on Chris, or is this another sweeping statement. I have quite a few trackdays under my belt now and never had any issues with fade or any other issues, when i did Donny they were outlasting the skylines and evo's and i generally got twice the amount of tracktime to them. The little single pot caliper is superb and the stock pads have superb performance on track and road. What do you want the thing to stop so quick it does a somersault?!?! the weak point if anything is tyre grip

[Anonymous]

I did charity rides at Bruntingthorpe last year and obviously got as much track time in as I could, I never had any issues with brake fade at all and coined in loads of money for three girls charities  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Les

[Anonymous]

my abs trips alot. i think it's cause I'm running kumho ecstas at the moment. Not the best of grip.  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

[philster_d]

Wings do look good on a convertible....

[Liz]

Class!   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[ChrisGB]

Being designed for road use, they will obviously not fare too well on sustained track use.

b****x!, what are you basing that on Chris, or is this another sweeping statement. I have quite a few trackdays under my belt now and never had any issues with fade or any other issues, when i did Donny they were outlasting the skylines and evo's and i generally got twice the amount of tracktime to them. The little single pot caliper is superb and the stock pads have superb performance on track and road. What do you want the thing to stop so quick it does a somersault?!?! the weak point if anything is tyre grip

Calm down man! I am basing it on the fact that the stock brakes are optimised for road use. A sweeping statement? Well I doubt anyone would disagree that for track use under the conditions of having wings and race rubber, the stock setup may become less effective than something optimised for track. I am not saying they don't work extremely well under the duress of track use. What I am saying is they would work better still if optimised for track use. I would expect, like any pad setup for road use, they will wear quickly on track (compared to a track optimised compound) in order to survive the increased duty temperatures. This is excellent as most road compounds just get too hot and fade sets in. That the fluid does not generally boil is another plus point. The system is absolutely brilliant in stock form on road and that it works so well on track is testament to just how good it is.

However, for sustained track use, you could go to a compound that worked better when hotter. By better, I mean will retain better feel and progression and last longer under track conditions. These pads would last longer on track, but would give a less effective road pad, possibly not warming up properly and compromising the excellent road feel and effectiveness. Possibly being hard and cold, the track optimised pads may kill the discs off quickly too on road.

Of course there is track use and track use. Some will have track rubber fitted and be on the absolute threshold of triggering the ABS, or have one or more wheels triggering ABS on the approach to every bend on the track for every lap of a 20 lap race. Others will be on road rubber and be merely braking quite hard for most of the bends for the duration of a 20 minute session. Under the former conditions, most road pads don't fare too well for long. Under the latter, I would expect the stock setup to work excellently.

That a car stops quickly is only one requirement for brakes. I personally would not change the stock disc / pad setup as I reckon it to be the best I have ever had underfoot.

The OP was about big brake and wings. In this context, (which is the context in which I replied) we are talking, higher braking forces than the stock setup could ever see, probably on race rubber. Under these conditions, the differences between a road and race optimised setup are magnified. That the Japanese GT3 racers go out on stock discs / callipers with uprated pads vindicates what I am saying here. Or maybe you reckon they should have gone racing on road pads  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Chris

[philster_d]

under the conditions of having wings

The OP was about big brake and wings. In this context, (which is the context in which I replied) we are talking, higher braking forces than the stock setup could ever see, probably on race rubber

You do know that big wings have nothing to do with braking right ?

[kanujunkie]

Chris, the pads will make a difference on a heavier car but on ours it will make little odds. Plus how do you know the pads were optimised for road use? your knowledge is obviously way better than ours on the MR2

[ChrisGB]

under the conditions of having wings

The OP was about big brake and wings. In this context, (which is the context in which I replied) we are talking, higher braking forces than the stock setup could ever see, probably on race rubber

You do know that big wings have nothing to do with braking right ?

Er any increase in downward force applied to the tyres means that the force acting at the interface between road and tyre will need to be larger in order to create shear (lock up condition) so therefore wings = harder braking potential. Harder braking potential = more heat in the braking system if used. Track use = using whatever is available so the guy behind you stays there.

Chris

[markiii]

well for functional wings true, never yet seen on for teh roadster that is functional though

[Anonymous]

Perhaps in high-speed applications, but the extra weight and drag (which there will always be an element of, regardless of wing design) will negate any positive effect if used on the Roadster.

[ChrisGB]

Chris, the pads will make a difference on a heavier car but on ours it will make little odds. Plus how do you know the pads were optimised for road use? your knowledge is obviously way better than ours on the MR2

Well weight is less than half the equation. Speed is the key factor. Kinetic energy is what the brakes remove. As kinetic energy is a function of speed squared, the higher the speed, the much higher the braking demands thermally. My last track bike weighed in at < 140Kg + the 85KG of lard ballast on top. Pads on that made a huge difference. Track pads were fine on track but pretty rubbish on road as they never got hot until you were really working them. Likewise, road pads on track just evaporated, though did not fade, through the drilled discs.

How do I know the pads were optimised for road use? Just a guess: it is a road car. I must be a genius or what? Why on earth would a manufacturer hobble a road car with a track optimised setup? Being a sports car, you could reckon on Toyota making them good for "fast road" use, but that is a world away from what I call proper track use. Anyone here been out on track and used the brakes fully lap after lap at full tilt / absolute latest braking point / ABS on  threshold fully through the braking approach to every corner? If you have, I am prepared to bet that you either got fade or got lots of wear. On the basis of the limited opportunities I have had to properly work the brakes on the MR2, I would reckon on accelerated wear as I have been unable to fade them or even get them grumbling much on the road.

I think there may be a bit of a terminology gap between what we regard as track use?

Chris