Tyre stagger (or not???), same tyres (or not)

[Anonymous]

[MOD]
Split from the tyre review thread
Simon
[/MOD]

New to the forum, and have been reading everyone's reviews with interest....thought I'd add my feelings about my MR2.

Front wheels: Standard 15's
Front tyres: TOYO Proxes T1-R - 205/50/15
Rear wheels: Standard 16's
Rear tyres: TOYO Proxes T1-R - 225/45/16

 After 2k the Nexens were virtually bare!

So, now it's 2.5k later since my Toyo's and they're already down to 3mm.

Anyone else had such dire wear on their tyres?

This is not a tire (sorry tyre) issue it is an alignment suspension issue. I currently have a set of T1-Rs (185-55-15/215-40-16) that are near 20K with as much wear as you speak of. what you are seeing is not normal and suggests other troubles.

Cheers for the comment,

Yeah, I recently put on some Kumho KU31's on the back, just in time for all the rain! I ran the Toyo's down to the limit, and found that the outer edge has considerable wear compared to the inner edge. Something is definately not right. Nevertheless I've already got my 60k service booked in at my nearby Toyota garage, so I'll let them find the solution. I'll be easing off my right foot till then, I want to save as much rubber as possible.

Oh, I'm also a fan of these Kumho's, felt secure in the wet, and I'm talking biblical proportions of water we received here in the UK over the weekend.

[ChrisGB]

I have run KU31s on another car and I reckon they could work well on the MR2.

Chris

[Anonymous]

I have run KU31s on another car and I reckon they could work well on the MR2.

Chris

ive run kumho for years on all sorts of cars and now currently the rears on my 2. and all in all they are one of the best tyres you can by. hard compound so they last they grip well in most conditions and there classed as a budget tyre so they are cheaper than most.

[markiii]

I have run KU31s on another car and I reckon they could work well on the MR2.

Chris

ive run kumho for years on all sorts of cars and now currently the rears on my 2. and all in all they are one of the best tyres you can by. hard compound so they last they grip well in most conditions and there classed as a budget tyre so they are cheaper than most.

meaning you have different rears to fronts?

do I need to say anything?

[Anonymous]

I have run KU31s on another car and I reckon they could work well on the MR2.

Chris

ive run kumho for years on all sorts of cars and now currently the rears on my 2. and all in all they are one of the best tyres you can by. hard compound so they last they grip well in most conditions and there classed as a budget tyre so they are cheaper than most.

meaning you have different rears to fronts?

do I need to say anything?

Well i couldnt let all that tread on the front go to waste lol

[markiii]

be even more of a waste in a ditch

[Anonymous]

We seem to have a spate of new members recently who have no understanding of the importance of tyre stagger and not mixing tyres on the roadster.
Being unaware of this is understandable, to most it is their first mid engine, rear wheel drive car. However all the info is here ad nauseum about the dangers of not maintaining tyre stagger and or running with different tyre makes.

What appalls me most though, are those that choose to willfully ignore the advice they are given when this is pointed out to them. The following are the possible consequences.

1. You will put your car in a ditch. (apart from another mr2 written off, i have no problem with that)
2. The above, plus you will hurt/kill yourself, a passenger, or possibly both.
3. You take out some innocent pedestrian or road user as you come to grief.(this, i have a problem with)

On top of all that, a sharp eyed insurance valuator may notice that your set up is outside oem specs thus rendering your insurance null and void.

It is simple people, maintain correct stagger and never run on mixed tyres.

[Anonymous]

We seem to have a spate of new members recently who have no understanding of the importance of tyre stagger and not mixing tyres on the roadster.
Being unaware of this is understandable, to most it is their first mid engine, rear wheel drive car. However all the info is here ad nauseum about the dangers of not maintaining tyre stagger and or running with different tyre makes.

What appalls me most though, are those that choose to willfully ignore the advice they are given when this is pointed out to them. The following are the possible consequences.

1. You will put your car in a ditch. (apart from another mr2 written off, i have no problem with that)
2. The above, plus you will hurt/kill yourself, a passenger, or possibly both.
3. You take out some innocent pedestrian or road user as you come to grief.(this, i have a problem with)

On top of all that, a sharp eyed insurance valuator may notice that your set up is outside oem specs thus rendering your insurance null and void.

It is simple people, maintain correct stagger and never run on mixed tyres.

i will agree you must maintain the correct stagger the car was designed and set up with this in mind. i even agree that you should change keep the tyres the same on either sides. however in my opinion i do not agree that you must keep the same tyre front to back the same. my reasons for this are that all manufactures of tyres design there product around the same thing. Physics! They take into account deformation (radial, circumferential,axial and torsional) and of course tyre compound. The main difference in the manufacture of tyres is the compound. This does vary between the manufactures, but not just that but there products them self. Now before you mention it tread patteren only really comes into it when mother nature comes out to play. Tyre compounds differ by either being soft or hard, the softer the compound the better the grip generated, but this come at a price as the tyre will not last as long. harder compounds work the oposite way, less grip but will last longer. now running different compounds front to back can cause grief or in some cases where the driver wants the back of the car to slide can prove to be benefical. in both of these cases tyre compound only has a noticeable effect when you put the car under pressure. so to bring to close unless your a complete T**T and try to be michael schumacher on public roads then it is your fault for not taking peoples advice. however if you like your car then you will not be driving your car fast enough i.e. braking the speed limits then tyre compund has little to no effect. so dont worry about which manufacture you want to go with, unless your going to be doing a track day or the T**T. And in case  of the T**T you dont deserve the car.

[Anonymous]

The percieved wisdom of the knowledgeable members of this forum and spyderchat in the states, both of which are dedicated to the roadster, is that you never mix tyres.
But of course, as a new owner with 28 posts, you know better.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[StuM]

The main difference in the manufacture of tyres is the compound.

That is the key part.  In my opinion, in order to get a neutral handling vehicle, it is essential to have as close as possible identical tyres on all four corners.

There is no way to guarantee that any two tyres are identical, but the closest that you can get is to at least get matching tyres from a single manufacturer.  

I disagree that tread pattern makes no difference in the dry.  Under cornering load, the movement of the tread rubber will vary dramatically from one tyre to the next... even at legal, sensible speeds.

Care needs to be taken with regard to the level of wear in the tyres, which on a rear drive car tends to mean that the rear tyres wear sooner.  This is something else of course that increases the relative difference in grip front to rear.

[Anonymous]

The percieved wisdom of the knowledgeable members of this forum and spyderchat in the states, both of which are dedicated to the roadster, is that you never mix tyres.
But of course, as a new owner with 28 posts, you know better.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

it may say on here im a newbie to the website but in know terms does that mean im new to a roadster regardless of how many posts i have put up. so get your facts right first before saying.

also as mentioned i said in my opinion not what should be done everyone should do what they want not told!

as for Stu

i can agree with you to a degree but staying sensible and your still be fine because tyre technology has gone a long way and the tyre will grip until you put it past its elastic limit. but this limit is quite high now and will get better as tyre technology get better.

but at the end of the day its how you drive, what makes you feel safe and down to how much you want to pay.

[Anonymous]

You do not know what you will encounter on any drive, weather conditions, road surfaces, emergencies that may require you to make sudden changes in speed, direction etc. So your argument that driving carefully and legally means that mixed tyres are ok, is piffle.

[Anonymous]

which means you will be going that much more carefully. plus all of what you stated is effected my more than just the tyres.

[Wabbitkilla]

Well then, quite a heated discussion.

I'm no expert tyre designer but experience counts loads.
For example on my last light weight stiff and sporty car the tyre manufacturer changed the tread pattern and wall construction just before i needed to replace the rears due to a puncture.

Fwd, but the new tyres used the same compound, cifferent tread pattern and stiffer sidewalls. They were great, but the car began to understeer like a burger... replaced the fronts for the new models and handling was restored.

Simples.

Do you notice ANY car manufacturer fitting differing make and model tyres front and back? No? That's probably because they know you're dumb to do so. End of.

The mr2 mk3 is a finely balanced car edging on the safe side of handling. It is therefore VITAL that you maintain stagger and same make&model of tyres on the corners. There are / have been members who have been caught out by this. Fact!

Luckily no one has been hurt yet, but you'll get precious little sympathy or support if you cause an accident by wearing mixed boots.

Physics?
Yes indeed, compound, tread pattern and depth, stiffness of sidewalls, surface temperature, atmospheric conditions all have a part to play. Predictable and safe handling is the name of the game no matter how or where you drive.

[muffdan]

As Nick says, the handling is finely balanced so that the car will tend to understeer rather than oversteer. This is achieved, amongst other things, by having less traction at the front through a narrower tyre. Do anything to increase the traction at the front such as fitting wider tyres or a grippier tyre and you make the car more prone to oversteer. With the car being mid-engined it is usually a more dramatic oversteer than from what you get from a front engined car and if you're not expecting or planning for it then it can catch you out and take you off the road before you realise what's happened.

Given that the grippyness of different tyres can be affected by compound, tread pattern, sidewall stiffness, road surface, temperature, wet road and a whole other bunch of factors, it is not simple enough to say tyre A and tyre B are roughly the same compound softness so the necessary rear biased grip ratio will be present in all conditions.

Jason

*edit: fixed a brain-break I had when typing this out, where I typed FWD instead of front engined   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

[roger]

so dont worry about which manufacture you want to go with,

If we believe this, why aren't we all running on remoulds at £10 a corner? as long as they are all the same   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

Guys,
It would appear that we are simply....................

[ChrisHumes]

ive been on here 7 years now and read every post on tyres, make and size, written off cars etc.

I would say rather than people arguing, let them do their thing and see what happens. i know what i do each time i need new tyres, 4 toyo's please!

[Anonymous]

If you know that much about a Roadster and still decide to run mis-matched tyres, then you're an idiot. I don't really think it's any more difficult to grasp than that. I wouldn't run mis-matched tyres on a £500 FWD shed of a car, much less on a sports car. They're the only thing keeping you in contact with the road, after all.


*lights blue touch paper and stands back*

[spit]

*lights blue touch paper and stands back*

*'ffft'*

Think you'll need a bigger firework Dan   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[darkday]

What appalls me most though, are those that choose to willfully ignore the advice they are given when this is pointed out to them.

No there's worse. There's the dipsh**s that willfully ignore the advice and then when it's brought up later say "Yeah it's ok to run mismatched tires".

We've got a band of these goons over on spyderchat now and everyone else (including me) has more or less given up trying to point out their stupidity. It's the same story everytime "Oh it's only if you don't know how to drive your car and if you're careful you'll be fine".   s:flame: :flame: s:flame:  You're going to get someone killed you nitwits!

/Rant

[Liz]

Thats what I have a problem with, the disregard for other road users, not fair at all.  
You only live up the road from me, can you give me warning when you are out and about please!  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

[uktotty]

As Nick says, the handling is finely balanced so that the car will tend to understeer rather than oversteer. This is achieved, amongst other things, by having less traction at the front through a narrower tyre. Do anything to increase the traction at the front such as fitting wider tyres or a grippier tyre and you make the car more prone to oversteer. With the car being mid-engined it is usually a more dramatic oversteer than from what you get from a FWD and if you're not expecting or planning for it then it can catch you out and take you off the road before you realise what's happened.

Given that the grippyness of different tyres can be affected by compound, tread pattern, sidewall stiffness, road surface, temperature, wet road and a whole other bunch of factors, it is not simple enough to say tyre A and tyre B are roughly the same compound softness so the necessary rear biased grip ratio will be present in all conditions.

Jason

The most sensible and logical explaination I have actually seen.
many members on here talk about same all round cos everyone else talks about same all round, bit like the precat thing.
This is a great explaination and taught me a bit too!

[onion86]

Just to add to discussion, I have a question that I don't remember seeing covered before.

You have 16" alloys on front, 17" on back.
If you get, on the Rear Toyo T1R Proxes - 215/40/17 (reinforced).
You then get, on the Front Toyo T1R Proxes - 195/50/16 (not reinforced).
(sizes don't necessarily go together and are just an example)

That 'reinforced' means the side walls are reinforced (i.e. stiffer)? You're buying the same tyre, brand and model... Surely though, the front and rear's won't be the same and what you're saying about being a mismatched make would cause a problem in this case (as I know people always saying on here Toyos are 'squidgy' - but I've not noticed mine being soft, which are reinforced)?

[normanh]

mmm now when I bought my 2 many years ago it had different tyres front to back, now I am not one to drive and push the handling parameters of the car but in 3 1/2 years the only time i have sh*t myself was when the tyres were mis-matched. I spoke to chrisGB about the same time just after I had them changed to Toyos and I coudnt agree more with the advice I was given "NEVER MIX TYRES ON A TWO". I really cant believe why anyone would wish to dispute or even question these words of wisdom based on many peoples experiences over a long period of time.

Dont be a fool or you may end up killing yourself and more importantly killing others, enough said.



normanh