Tyre stagger (or not???), same tyres (or not)

[enid_b]

guff

im in your corner chris.


as a driving god, i would not run with mixed tyres. i also think that drivers of less skill SHOULD be advised not to mix their tyres. it would be wrong for the club NOT to advise that people stick to what has been proven to be a safer combination, especially those who come here and are new to the car or indeed RWDriving styles.

i will concede that if the individual knows what they are doing with cars and setups, then obviously they are free to do as they choose, as are all folk.  but you will find that the majority should stick to what is advised.  it is an expensive gamble in my opinion.

why risk it?

[Anonymous]

So in summary mixed wrong size tyres are bad mmmkay.

[kentsmudger]

My Roadster came to me with mismatched front to back (Pirellis and Bridgestones I think). Seemed absolutely fine until the first time I drove it on a damp motorway. I thought the car was trying to throw me off the road. This was not what I expected from reading magazines that described the car as 'involving'! Reading advice from experienced members on here got me the cure -

Get 4 tyres the same make and model in the correct sizes and pay attention to tyre pressures.

Tyres purchased, problem solved, car handles properly.

This should be the only tyre fitment advice given to a new owner on these boards who is unfamiliar with the car and asking for help.

[Dyn-Evo]

(This will probably be "moderated"...but here we go anyway...!)   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Having had my Mk3 since January 2009, and during that time read the big debate about tyre widths / staggering, etc, I feel that there is a core few here that are basically putting the frighteners on new Mk3 owners un-necessarily?
Certainly, when I originally hinted at 17" wheels all-round with same-width tyres, I was told in no uncertain terms that:
"I WOULD END UP IN A DITCH!!"
Now following this I started looking into this statement, and more importantly, how this opinion may have originated.......

After all, we are simply disagreeing about essentially an extra couple of square centimeters of rear tyre contact with the road...?
Given that there are almost limitless combinations of tyre size, compounds, road conditions, vehicle speed, etc, it seems the statement is somewhat misleading.......

What has probably happened is that someone has had an "incident", lost it on a corner and ended up in the ditch.........
Now when this is mentioned people have jumped to conclusions and assumed that it MUST be down to the tyres.....? Then the "Chinese whisper" syndrome kicks in......

Someone else loses it on a corner: "The same thing happened to someone I know, and it was the tyre stagger", etc...
So it is incomprehensible that PERHAPS they were driving a little too fast, did not show the required respect for a mid-engined car, had a binding brake caliper, hit a patch of wet leaves / oil, etc,etc......?!

Now I appreciate that the stagger will obviously have SOME effect on handling, but there are a LOT of other more significant variables:
Binding brakes, tyre profile, tyre tread depth, tyre wear across the tread, suspension wear, etc....
And this is just on a standard car......!

If you then consider that any mods will also affect the handling: engine conversions, uprating suspension, adding ARB's, aero enhancements, different size alloys, uprated brakes.........

Having driven MR2's for a decade now, I DO agree with one thing: you need to learn to drive a mid-engined car.......
I can understand people warning newcomers about the POSSIBLE danger of mixed tyres, stagger, alloy size, etc.

Take a typical example:
A guy has always fancied an MR2 Roadster (who wouldn't!?). Currently drives a Golf.
Looks on Autotrader, finds a nice MR at the right price, buys it, drives it home.
Now its very likely the alloys are blistered, so he looks online for a nice new set of rims: 17" package deal from Halfords for £399... nice!
Buys them, sorted.....!

Monday morning, takes car for a blat on some "B" roads..loses it... crashes...writes off car...!

SO...what caused the crash?  The tyres? Possible, but doubtful......

More than likely, it was because he was trying to drive it like his Golf, and HAD NOT GOT THE HANG OF THE CARS HANDLING!
Sorry...I've talked this through with several very good engineers and it's a fact:
LACK OF TYRE STAGGER WILL NOT CAUSE YOU TO END UP IN A DITCH!

Driving like a t**t, speeding in a car you are not familiar with on unfamiliar roads WILL, on the other hand..!
Basically the sensible approach is this: buy the wheels / tyres you WANT to buy.
Then take it easy, until you know the handling......learn the car..!

By all means experiment with different tyres / wheel sizes: after all even Toyota got it wrong initially, changing the rear tyre width at the last minute... This was to make the handling less "radical", thereby watering it down, making the car have a more universal appeal.
Maybe they were worried that people driving MR cars for the first time would be "caught out" by an unforgiving rear end, and this would generate bad press...?
This is not to say that it makes it dangerous, though, surely..?

This IS a can of worms: volumes have been written on car handling........
But the fact remains that there are simply too many variables all contributing to the overall picture, and it is simply misleading to scare newcomers to the Mk3.......

I don't remember any similar dramas when I first got my Mk1: people run all sorts of different wheels / tyre sizes / profiles on them without any "you'll end up in a ditch" statements.......?

Now I wonder why that is..?

[Wabbitkilla]

[MOD] If we can keep this discussion in one place it would be more ... constructive.
This is an endless argument against the learned logic and wisdom of several forums and manufacturers. [/MOD]

[markiii]

thanks Nic, just wrote a long reply and then lost it as teh post no longer existed  :-) :-) :-)

I'll retype whn I can be arsed  :-) :-) :-)

[davidarden]

It seems to be the case on these forums that you'll get a few knowledgeable people posting their opinions, and before you know it a whole flood of less knowledgeable members jumping on the band wagon offering the same opinion, when in fact they know little about the subject.

I think the nail has been hit on the head a few posts up: sure if you know your car inside out, know all its handling capabilities and its limits feel free to fiddle with your tyres, but in general the average driver will have a safer and more predictable car with the correct tyre setup - and its important that the club promotes this.

[roger]

Dyno is both right AND wrong.

Take the Golf guy - maybe it wasn't the lack of stagger, but maybe it was! In all these things 2 wrongs don't make a right. Cut out one of the factors and you have a problem halved. Bit like the chicken and egg situation of the oval bore / pre-cat scenario.

If somebody wants to ignore advice that is totally up to them, but generally if they are that way inclined why come on here and ask the question - you are obviously such a good driver that you don't need the likes of us. And probably a better engineer than anybody at Toyota who designed the thing - to boot.

However for 95% of first time owners of RWD Mid engined cars they need to be made aware they cannot drive it like a Golf.

[kentsmudger]

Take a typical example:
A guy has always fancied an MR2 Roadster (who wouldn't!?). Currently drives a Golf. Looks on Autotrader, finds a nice MR at the right price, buys it, drives it home. Now its very likely the alloys are blistered, so he looks online for a nice new set of rims: 17" package deal from Halfords for £399... nice!
Buys them, sorted.....!

Monday morning, takes car for a blat on some "B" roads..loses it... crashes...writes off car...!
SO...what caused the crash?  The tyres? Possible, but doubtful......
More than likely, it was because he was trying to drive it like his Golf, and HAD NOT GOT THE HANG OF THE CARS HANDLING!

A possible scenario, but a car that behaves predictably, as designed, will help a noob get used to things more easily. See my post above yours though. I have been driving over 20 years in a selection of different cars (FF, FR, MR & RR layout) and the Roadster as delivered to me was just plain unstable in the wet. Start with the stock set-up and get used to how the car drives, then experiment only when sure of the intended result.

By all means experiment with different tyres / wheel sizes: after all even Toyota got it wrong initially, changing the rear tyre width at the last minute... This was to make the handling less "radical", thereby watering it down, making the car have a more universal appeal.
Maybe they were worried that people driving MR cars for the first time would be "caught out" by an unforgiving rear end, and this would generate bad press...?

(citation needed)!!!

Toyota learned good lessons from the early MK2 gaining bad press for it's road manners and the MK3 was praised from all quarters as a great-handling drivers car. Plenty of big-name manufacturers equip their mid-engined cars with wider rear tyres and there are none that I am aware of fit the same size all round. I really doubt this is done purely for aesthetic reasons...

Having had my Mk3 since January 2009, and during that time read the big debate about tyre widths / staggering, etc, I feel that there is a core few here that are basically putting the frighteners on new Mk3 owners un-necessarily?

No, no we are not.

[Anonymous]

Still astounds me the amount of people who have more knowledge than a major car manufacturers R+D department.
Why on earth did Toyota not simply hire one or two of these people and save themselves millions?

[Wabbitkilla]

Really .... I'm bored with the whole subject and can't even be bothered to read the full post.
My advice will always be the same regarding tyre stagger and make/model... after all it's worked well for me and everyone else who's a mate.

If you want to ignore that advice, then stay away from me on the road.

[Dyn-Evo]

Same old people: same old opinions.......!  s:D s:D  

Consider this:

There are 1000's of MK3 drivers out there, not connected with the forum, driving cars with all sorts of tyre compounds, makes, profiles, etc.....

VERY few (if any) have ever been near a ditch.....! Imagine how many pairs front or rear tyres have been changed, leaving the other axle tyres of a different make, by KwikFit or similar..?
The replacements MAY well maintain the correct stagger but the compound WILL be different from the other axle if they're a different make......
And that will affect the overall handling considerably more than the extra 5sq/cm of rubber ever will.....?

You miss the point: TOO MANY VARIABLES to be definitive......thats a fact!

THEY ALL affect the overall handling of the car......in fact a sticking brake caliper is infinitely more likely to cause a crash: think about it.....!  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

Just for the record: Even though I'm becoming public enemy #1, I am currently running a staggered setup  AS ADVISED (only because I'm still getting to know the car).....but you can be sure I'll be running some semi-scientific tests in the not too distant future........  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

Exactly, it has an effect, therefore in choosing to ignore this variable you increase the chances of an accident.
How difficult is that to understand?  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Dyn-Evo]

If you're not certain of the other variables, either (or choose to conveniently forget them?)...then you cannot possibly substantiate the claim.......?  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Anonymous]

Look, there are loads of variables, obviously, so why not control the ones you can?

[StuM]

I'm not an engineer, and I have not carried out any scientific, control tests into the handling of the MR2.  Because of this, I am in no position to do anything other than bow to the superior knowledge of the Toyota R&D department who spent countless millions sorting out what they believed to be the best set up for the car, given the market it was intended for and the countless variations in what people want from a car.

All the club is (I believe) trying to do is to say that the safest bet is to stick as close as possible to the original set up that Toyota recommended.  That advice, for anyone other than someone who truely has an expert knowledge of car handling/driving, can surely only be common sense.  So, the advice is to maintain OEM spec tyres, and the same model tyre all round.

I really don't understand how anyone can be critical of the club for recommending to people that they stick with the manufacturer prescribed specification.

[Dyn-Evo]

I see what you're saying, but even running the "correct" stagger, you're still quite likely to find that ditch when you consider the other variables...?

...which sort of makes this debate (and the original statement) a bit of a storm in a teacup...?  s:) s:)

[Wabbitkilla]

Same old people: same old opinions.......!  s:D s:D  

Same PERSON .... same opinion, hmmmm .... i'll go with the croud thanks   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  
I'm not the kind of person to go with the flow too .... i just enjoy my car handling the way it does.
I will be changing tyres in the near future, and guess what ... they may be different to the ones i have on now, but they have the right stagger and are all the same make and model all around  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Like you say it's my opinion, are you suggesting i'm not entitled to it?
Or are you suggesting i should take your advice which goes against that of both Toyota and the tyre manufacturers?
And i seem to remember the majority of people were quite happy until you kept bringing this up   s:P s:P

[davidarden]

You still seem to be missing the point, if you can remove one variable - and technically reduce your chances of an accident, then why not do it...

[markiii]

the Mk1 was specced from teh factory with the same size wheels and tyres all round

those that have gone wider at the back have found it then understeers

in exactly teh same way the mk3 oversteers if you reduce teh width of teh rears

I grant you those from teh TWoBrutal background have gone wider at the back and thats usually due to needing to tame more power or deal with more weight out back, no one has ever seriouslysuggested running smaller at the back on teh mk1 than at teh front though

which is effectively your argument

the mk3 has teh engine significantly further back than the mk1 due to teh softop and the lack of boot

that means teh weight is further back, and thus they gave it wider tyres

at least your starting from teh right place in this argument and starting with stock, then adjust to you preference, the sad thing is those jumping straight in without doing that will assume there car is fine because they have never experienced just how good it is when setup properly

[Dyn-Evo]

I knew this would create a little hornets nest....!

AND, I knew it was like going on the Pepsi forum preaching the merits of Coca-Cola.........

..but at least people can make up their own minds.....?  s:) s:)  

I'm not knocking the advice: I just feel its a little "alarmist"..?   s:? :? s:?

[Anonymous]

I'm not knocking the advice: I just feel its a little "alarmist"..?   s:? :? s:?

Yes, lets not mention it to new members, and ssssh, not a word about pre cats/oval bores either, in fact why do we sodding bother at all?  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Dyn-Evo]

I'm not knocking the advice: I just feel its a little "alarmist"..?   s:? :? s:?

and ssssh, not a word about pre cats/oval bores either, in fact why do we sodding bother at all?  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

now,now..dont be a silly boy!

The pre-cats / oval bores thing IS fact...no variables there to contend with.....  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[aaronjb]

The pre-cats / oval bores thing IS fact

That depends who you talk to..

[roger]

The pre-cats / oval bores thing IS fact

That depends who you talk to..

  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol: