The Future of the UK MR2 Community IMPORTANT PLEASE READ

[markiii]

Ok guys some of you have heard rumblings and there has been some limited discussion in another thread.

Here is the lowdown;

Representatives of all of the UK MR2 clubs were invited for lunch with the DC (MR2 Drivers Club) at MR2004 last week. At this meeting all clubs were invited by Ken Kinnersley to talks with regard to a possible unification of the clubs.

The letter below summises the invite, though it should be stressed that the emphasis was put on the fact that this is not a proposed DC merger/takeover, but potentially a completely new club, with a new board, a new structure, and a new name.

 m http://www.mr2roc.org/documents/MR2DC_proposal.pdf m

After discussion amongst the Committee we have decided that we will listen to any proposals and report back to you the membership.

Many of you may be members of other MR2 clubs as well as ROC, some of you will be aware of the historic reasons behind the current multiude of clubs and why they were set up in the first place. But this isn't the place to go over old ground.

There may be benefits to a "One Club" approach, there may not, there may be benefits to a closer relationship between the clubs than the somewhat antagonistic approach that currently exists. Though, in fairness this is usually between the other clubs and the DC - I haven't seen much evidence of it, for example between ourselves and IMOC. Or, there may not.

At the present time, we are not advocating any course of action save one, hearing what there is to say.

What we would like to hear is what you the membership think. Do you have views on a "One club approach",  be them good or bad, and how do you feel about a paid membership? What would constitute the best future for the club(s) in your mind?

We aren't asking for a vote, more to get an insight on your feelings, what you'd like to see, and even the things that you don't want to see. If theres a reason you're here, and not IMOC or the OC or the DC, why is that? What would you not like to see happening? Do any of the other clubs do things better? Things you'd like to see?

This will give us a basis on which to evaluate any discussions, and the ability to share your concerns or suggestions. Should the clubs as a whole reach the point where there is a motion to vote on a particular course of action rest assured your votes will be what decides it, with regard to whether ROC participates or not.

Only two other points to bear in mind, please let us keep this rational and sensible, and bear in mind that any opinions from committee members raised in this discussion are only their individual opinions, just as yours will be. They hold no more credence or sway in any outcome.

So let the discussion commence...

[roger]

Looks like I am the first to see this - probably because Friday is an early lunch!

Only just bought a '2, and only just joined the club. I did initially sign up to IMOC before I even knew about MR2OC, but I got fed up of all the Mk1 & Mk2 chatter. Unless there was a seperate "division" for Mk3 run by Mk3 owners (because it is so different a car), I would prefer to keep seperate.

[Anonymous]

Having recently been looking around the other sites I agree.  No disrespect to Mk1/2 owners at all but i'm not really interested in their cars, (and it seems the feeling is mutual).

The Mk3 is such a different and unique car and has very little coverage on the other sites as they appear to firmly concentrate on Mk2's.

I feel that our roadster community would be diluted if there was an alliance and I would certainly miss this site.

That's my view anyways!

[aaronjb]

<straps on concrete boots, jumps in with both feet>

Personally, I have nothing against a paid membership - as long as it carries some benefits - though I don't count a magazine as a benefit  s:) s:)  Club insurance schemes, traders discounts etc do count however - and lets face it, club insurance schemes are easier to set up if you can say "we have X thousand paying members" than "we have a few hundred free members"..

However if any new club was formed, I'm not sure I'd want it to be run as the MR2DC is.. Accounts have to be made public, in full rather than just a summary, and I'm not sure I believe in clubs being run as for-profit businesses with full time employees that have perks (such as company cars) - when I'm paying membership to a club, I liked to know that the money is going toward running events for the members, not toward paying for someone elses house and free car..

Other than that - I very much like the MR2ROC, and I'm not sure I'd want it to lose it's identity and it's forum, this is a nice place to be, well policed in terms of moderation, polite, friendly and full of good technical advice. By the same token I wouldn't want to lose IMOC-UK-CHAT - unmoderated banter and sarcasm abound.. I can honestly say I've never bothered visiting the MR2DC forum (if it even has one) - I only joined to get a good deal on insurance, and that turned out to be a waste of £40!

Just my (quite large) 2penneth,
Aaron

[Anonymous]

i second that.apart from spyderchat there was no other mk3 only site that i could find (probably didnt look hard enough   s:D s:D  )
the help and advice good or bad i have recieved on here has been excellent and i feel that if it was a combined site it could lead to 'my car is better than yours or should have brought a mk2' disccussions.
i wouldn't mind paying any sort of yearly subscribtion  s:?: :?: s:?:   but there would have to be some benifts to that rather than just access to the site.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, I as with many others only have any affiliation with the MR2DC for insurance purposes (strong DIG bias). Other than this I have gained nothing from being a member of MR2DC over the many years of membership.  There is a very strong link between MR2DC and DIG which I'm sure is purely for financial reasons, as DIG no longer offer the same sort of wide spread mod freindly insurance across the board as they used to.

In my personal opinion MR2DC are too smug for their own good and offer nothing to the likes of MR2ROC, MR2OC or IMOCand only look for a unification deal due to the many 'two' owners that they as yet do not get membership fees from.

Once the present generation of 'picnic hamper and AA road atlas' style  owners have disappeared, then I cannot see the MR2DC continuing unless they are successful in this move.  (wise move on their part!)

I will continue to pay their membership fees as long as I remian with DIG, however if I should change insurance company then I would not.  The same would be said if MR2ROC became part of this business empire as MR2DC is a business, do not ever doubt that!

to finish, I believe MR2DC are old school and offer nothing, they wish to unify for financial profit and self survival.    IMHO of course  s;-) ;-) s;-)

[markiii]

with regard to the MK3 specific discussions being lost and having no interest in teh MK1 and 2 stuff, I tend to agree.

From my perspective though there are 2 issues, a merging, or closer co-operation between teh clubs, and seperately how the websites/forums/mailing lists would run.

The first is more concerned with overall governance, i.e membership, be it paid or not, national events, discounts, insurance, all that kind of things

The second is more day to day operational, so for example say there was one website, I would expect specific sections for different Marks, to cover the same kind of divisions currently served by the clubs at present, certainly there would be no point in just one large bucket where everyone talks about everything. Under such circumstances we would just frequent the areas that interest us, much as we do now.

Like wise with regard to Aarons comments (cheers matey) I would want any web presence to be much like we have now, inevitably it's a awkward line to walk between total free speech and keeping the site useable. But I certainly see the online presence as a community not just a place to discuss techie issues. Thats currently why teh DC site is so scorned because it is rigid technical and anything else is deleted.

[markiii]

Just to re-iterate,

While I do agree with Perry's comments. one thing to clarify is that there is zero chance of us or I suspect any other club just saying let's up and join the DC with a few bells and whistles.

For any merger to be considered there has to be benefits to both sides, and a coming to gether of equals. and Perry has very much summed up teh benefits to teh DC.

What is going to need to happen in order for any merger to occur would be a club run along teh lines that we all buy into, and that IMHO does not mean company cars e.t.c.

OUR requirements would need to be met which is going ot mean an awful lot of change for teh DC as well.

For example I personally don't know Ken and he may well have altruistic motives or he may not. Fact of teh matter is that I don't think any merger would be contemplated with him still around by the majority of teh uK clubs membership. That may be not fair, but I don't beleive they will ever trust him. Thats a concession teh DC will likely have to make.

[aaronjb]

Like wise with regard to Aarons comments (cheers matey)

Anytime Mark, you'll stick the fiver in the post today, right?  s;) s;)   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

I tend to agree with Perry - MR2DC are only doing this because otherwise they'll simply slowly die out, especially now that DIG are now no longer offering the great insurance schemes they were, and sadly that was basically the only reason for a great many of us to join - the magazine is very Mk1 biased (with a bit of Mk2 and Mk3 thrown in here and there), and generally.. well - I only read one of them!

I'm not sure a unified board would be that great either - personally I come here and hit 'View new posts since last visit' - which works really well here.. If there were umpteen sections I had no interest in, it would be really hard to keep up with the stuff I am interested in - the Mk3 stuff (oh and the friendly banter!).

I'm not sure I agree that joining the boards would result in us being told to buy a Mk2 though - sure, we get called all sorts of things on IMOC-UK-CHAT (y'know, hairdressers cars, we're all  s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:  etc  s;) s;) ), but that's because it's a chat list  s;) s;)  I think 90% of members of all the clubs are mature enough to keep that kind of thing out of the technical sections.


If the clubs did merge, I'd want to know that our committee (and the IMOC committee) were sat right up at the top of the tree alongside Ken (assuming he remained, I know a lot would rather he didn't) to make sure things were being run for the members, and not for financial gain.

As I say, I'm not entirely against the idea of paid employees - once clubs get to a certain size it becomes almost necessary due to the workloads on the club committee members - but I'd really rather we stayed as three smaller clubs that could continue to be run on a not-for-profit volunteer basis.


There's nothing (IMHO) to stop us holding joint events, though I think joint events would go down much better with people if they weren't organised by the MR2DC as headliners - perhaps if the ROC or IMOC organised them and invited MR2DC..


Broadly speaking, then, I suppose I would be against the idea of one, grand, unified club.. Unless it got me a fantastic deal on insurance - but I think the days of clubs being able to negotiate great deals on that are sadly over  s:( s:(

Aaron

[MRMike]

I can see the benefit of a combined club in terms of discounts, insurance cost of badwith, but on a day to day basis, I really do not see the advantage.  I'd hate for the amalgamated club to just be somewhere you join to get insurance cheaper, like the DC appears to be now.

Also i'm not being elitist in any way, but I think the memberships between the clubs is also very very different, and i'm not sure the personalities are particularly complimenting. This was evident at JAE when one individual from another club was spinning his car right by ours.  I can't ever imagine someone from ROC doing that.  

I think the divide which has become apparent thus far in the forums is evidence enough that the cars, and owners are very different in their interests and conversations. TBO honest I have no 'real' interest in the Mk2, and I feel that sentiment is true for Mk2 owners.

Having said that it could be really great to join the clubs, in my own experience i've had more waves from Mk2 owners that Mk3 owners, so if there was a way to join the clubs it could be quite something.  

Overall though, ROC functions so well as a standalone club, i don't see the advantage to this club.  I can see the advantage for other clubs joining ROC, in terms of knowledgable membership, admin and general running of a non profit community.

Also how would the amalgamated club allocate bandwith betwen marques etc? Or would there be no moderation? If there was no moderation surely a club like MR2OC with the majority of mk2 owners could effectively dominate the site, and it appear just like the MR2OC of today.

Just my thought of course!

[Anonymous]

I would kind of like to back up what has already been said here about MR2DC. I was a member for the aforementioned insurance purposes (which, really, the benefits aren't THAT great) and have to say, having owned two Mk1's and had a Mk2 for 6 months usage, the DC membership was dwindling even when I was a member, over two and a half years ago. It does smack slightly of being worried that they are going out of existance and that they need to do something. Also, the Mk1 is becoming a rarer and rarer commodity and most people who have a Mk2 tend to use it as an everyday car that doesn't really have any speciality value. The Mk1 certainly does because it was a great little drivers car, which give rise to many enthusiasts.

Also, I came here after the existing clubs offered me nothing on my Mk3. No info, no help, nothing. The forums and the technical areas concentrated on the Mk1 and 2 and it does seem  strange that they have all of a sudden taken an interest in our car. Most drivers of the other marks completely blank or ignore us, tending not to associate with us, purely cos we don't have a hard top!!! Seriously! I have, in the time I have had my Mk3, had 1 waved from a Mk2 owner and a chat on a forcourt with a Mk1 owner, only cos I spoke to them first and said I had had one!!!!

Paid membership is only beneficial if there are benefits to the memebers, as Aaron has said. But one of the attractions, if I am to be brutally honest about it, of this site and club is that it IS free. I realise the moderators and sitekeepers do a hell of a job, but we have got by so far without having to charge for membership. And I am sure that it will remain a big attraction to a lot of people, either here or new. I for one am very happy with the donation process. It is voluntary and with a little campaigning, we CAN raise enough money to keep us going, as we have recently done so.

And finally, even though I have owned the previous marks, I am no longer that interested in them. I am now only interested in the Mk3. I have nothing against the other marks (especially the Mk1. I wish I still had it actually. Great car!), but my interest is no longer, so therefor, I want only to know about the Mk3. Why do I have to go to a community where, in the majority of the cases, the rest of the people on there are not intersted in MY car? I wouldn't be of theirs, I wouldn't expect it of them. So, whats the point? Everyone seems to be getting on just fine and the fact that we HAVE a choice of the different clubs is a good thing in my opinion. Each club offers something slightly different. DC is very technical. IMOC is, as far as I can tell and remember, very mod orientated. Here, we have a community that is very tolerant of all lines of thought and we all get on and exchange info and pleasantries very well.

I personally don't see the point of changing the status quo. It works like it is very well. Why change it and cause large disruptions, possible conflicts and a difference of opinion. I think it would be more trouble than it is worth.............

[Tem]

Don't know why, but I've always felt that MR2DC is only for people in UK. While MR2ROC is in UK, but for people everywhere. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't join MR2DC, or whatever the new MR2 club would be. Especially if there's a membership fee, which might have discounts for stores/insurances in UK, as I have absolutely no need for them. I have a hunch that many foreigners think the same. I can understand the reasons for UK people though.

For me this is the best MR2 Club. If this turns into one big club with all three generations in it, I don't think I have much interest for it. MR2 Owners Club ( m http://www.mr2faq.com/ m ) already tried this in US and failed. The Club is a great place for Mk1&2 owners, but there's basically nothing for Mk3.


(and I'm afraid that even though the reasons for separate Mk3 places might be old, the same reasons still exist...good will from people who run stuff isn't enough to change it)

[markiii]

have toadmit thats one of my concerns with membership fees. overseas members are valued, but would get no benefit from paying.

[Anonymous]

Wow, some very lengthy posts  s:!: :!: s:!:  

I'm a member of both here and MR2DC and I feel that being a part of these two clubs gives me the best of both worlds. I'm not clued up as to whats gone on in the past and don't feel thats relevant. The MR2DC has some very nice members of a wide spectrum of ages across all 3 models of the MR2. I'm also amember of IMOC which is very much Mk1 and Mk2 based whilst the OC is a very poor attempt at duplicating MR2ROC. IMHO.
The MR2 will one day stop being produced and we will all be in a club that will inevitably die. Therefore the stength of numbers can only be achieved with one overall operation containing all factions of the MR2 world. I don't believe it is possible for just one club to emerge as the old saying goes "you can't please everybody all of the time". Therefore if all the existing clubs became one then this would give rise to the birth of numerous smaller clubs run by people who did'nt want to get involved with this one big super club.
The membership at MR2DC is falling but they still have well over 2000 members. So they must be doing something right. The social side of MR2DC their strength, with regular monthly meetings. The IT side is their weakness as their site is not user friendly.
It makes great sense that all MR2 clubs should come together to co-exist and work together to obtain greater benefits from insurers, dealers etc. Maybe something like "MR2 World" which has associate clubs (MR2DC and MR2ROC etc) that have regular meetings of a committee set up for the benefit of all the clubs. This could be done as a two tier system. Firstly free access to website forums and secondly subscribtion for access benefits. Then maybe an annual MR2 event could be attended by all 2 owners and we can something that is the envy of most other makes.

[Anonymous]

I guess if there was just one club, there would still be breakaway clubs formed and in a few months or a couple of years we would be back to several club. The DC cant stop other clubs being formed.

I vote no. (but then Im no longer an owner   s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  )

[GSB]

For all the reasons stated above, and more besides...

No...

[Anonymous]

I'm happy with things the way they are. If I had a MkI or MkII I would happily go on to one of their boards. I'm sure if someone wanted to upgrade to a MkIII or downgrade to a MkI/MkII (   s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:  ) then they would venture onto the relevant club.

I can see why they may want to merge, why should it matter what version car we have, we all drive MR2s. Given that each revision seems different in its own right, it seems the commonality is really only in name.

No offence to the guys on the other board, but I don't want to get bogged down with talk about model specific issues that I'm not interested in. All I could see it would really bring is increased banter posts and little benefit in technical issues. OK general mechanical / electrical issues might be relevant but I would hazard a guess that they would be generally model specific.

Would it just not be better to have an overall club co-ordinator for things that are relevant for each sub-club. That person(s) could then get in touch with each club secretary to let them know of offers / large meets / etc.

I'm happy in our own little corner of '2 ownership with things as they are  s:) s:)  Things might be better as a huge club, but I can see no real benefit to changing, so it would get a no vote from me.

[Anonymous]

Like the others I like this place because:

It's specific:  The other cars may be called MR2's, but at the end of the day they really aren't that similar to my car, and so info about them ain't much use to me.

It's friendly:  The balance here is just great.

It's not too big:  It's easy to spot people, to get to know people etc. etc.  You really don't get lost in the crowd.

I've nothing against paid membership, but if it were more than a token gesture (fiver/tenner type money), then there'd need to be reasonable incentives.

I've no real problems with joining the other clubs, but only if the result didn't mean me having to cope with thousands of posts about mk1/2 cars where aren't for me, and likewise so I didn't get lost in the crowd.

[Comer]

If ain't broke don't fix it.   s:D s:D

EDIT too!:

I joined this site because I have an uncommon sports car that I enjoy discussing with, or getting help, from a limited number of like minded people.  

It has been bl**dy useful and friendly site that would be hard to be improved to my liking without:

a) the car being sold for many years to many non boy racer owners to increase the number of different stories / experiences with the car

and / or

b) with many new aftermarket products services being produced

So for me personally I can't see either of those things happening just by coming under the umbrella of one big MR2 club.  Therefore the only small attraction to me is the possibility of discounts and not being treated like a unknowledgeable halfwit by main dealers.

[heathstimpson]

I have to agree with all the recent posts. They may be all MR2's but they need to have specialist clubs for all derivatives; so my vote is with leaving the ROC club as it is  s:? :? s:?

[Darth Paul]

No.

EDIT

Sorry.  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  Quite simply for all the reasons stated above. The web site would have to be huge, and the ROC members would want to retain the same 'feel' as the site is now. So the new MR2 World (sounded good  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  ) site would ahve to have a main page with three sites linking to it. Otherwise it just wouldn't work – there is just too much info for three models to fit into one site.

Better?  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[markiii]

No.

using as an example Pauls post. While it's a valid point of view more useful would be the reasoning behind it.

[Anonymous]

I would say stay as we are but try some joint ventures to see what happens. Then re-evaluate in 6 months to a year.

Doesn't every company trial & test before making decisions   s:?: :?: s:?:  

You can't decide on an unknown else we would all be millionaires & be in the Ferrari / Porsche owners clubs    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

Doesn't every company trial & test before making decisions   s:?: :?: s:?:  

PMSL.... er, not the one I work for  s:) s:)


Ooops, sorry off topic.

[Anonymous]

Not too much to say as its already been said I think.

I joined the club before it was this big, before I had a 2.  I bought a 2 and stayed with the club as it was roadster related, and the people are great.  I sold the 2, and stayed with the club because the people are great!.

If we merge, then there are too many egos from other gens of 2, and it would be difficult to see any real benifits really.  The only way really would be to have one club, but with 3 or 4 completely seperate areas, but cant see that makes any difference from now.

Keep as we are please?