Tyres and adjustable coilovers

[shnazzle]

Just thought I'd put a small note in for those considering adjustable coilovers as there have been quite a few "do I/don't I" discussions as of late.

This also ties in with the never ending tyre discussion.
It's a rant, mind. But one intended to be informative, and not perse to spark a discussion or promote an opinion.

Recent discussions have been around the merits of the adjustable coilovers, and particularly if the harder ride is worth the "gains".
I'm guessing what we would describe as a comfortable ride is one that is well sprung and softly dampered. Springs with a low rating and damping that stops the springs from bouncing you around like on a pogostick, but not much more. Couple this with some big comfy sprung seats and voila...you've got yourself a Mercedes!
...not an MR2.
What you've got is a mid-engined car with seats that have less stuffing than an ASDA jam donut, as low as they can feasibly be placed to allow sliding rails, springs aimed at being more firm than comfortable and dampers that are built to let you waft through the countryside...at pace!
The car is set us as a sporty runabout, not a cruiser.

The moral of the story is that when you change from the stock setup (including the stock tyres it came with), you're likely to further bring forward the built-in nature for the MR2 to be sporty and purposeful.
What this also means is that when you put hard side-walled tyres on the car like the beloved Yokohama AD08s (which actually have metal plating in the sidewalls by the way), you are already introducing noticeably more "bumpiness" over the popular Toyo T1Rs.

Don't believe me...try it. Hell, put a few more psi in your tyres and pay attention to the increase in vibration and bumpiness.

Yes, that's how communicative the MR2 is!

Now imagine your MR2 on Toyo T1Rs and stock suspension, but take the springs and increase the spring rates 3 times. So the springs are 3x harder to compress. 3x firmer.
This is the case when you go from stock to the MeisterRs or BC coilovers.
You hit a bump in the road and you expect it to gracefully take the hit. Instead, you feel a jolt. The seats are barely sprung, so you feel it in your body.
Communicative MR2 a bit too communicative maybe? The energy can't be destroyed, it can only be displaced. On your stock springs the energy is absorbed and displaced gradually by the bounce and eventually through the dampers and body, eventually "lost" in various ways to the point where you don't feel them.

Now, the springs are stiffer, so the energy from the bump doesn't get absorbed as much but actually finds its way into the car body quicker and a lot less muffled.

What did you expect? Nothing else has changed! Not nice.
Damping needs to be changed to be able to dissipate the energy in a more controlled, compliant and comfortable manner.
Luckily, adjustable coilovers are not only dampered to the springs, but are adjustable as well to accommodate various spring rates, various driving conditions and various surfaces.

Does that mean that with good damping, you can get the stiffer springs to feel as comfortable as the stock car?
No.
But, they do a damn good job trying!
Quite successfully if you ask me.

Now you've got the springs stiffer and the damping to take on the challenge of keeping the new springs from causing havoc to comfort, but also control.

Now you listen to all the chat on the forum and decide you want the Yokohama AD08R tyres on. It's summer, why not.

You've just made your car 3x stiffer than it was, and the dampers are doing their damndest to keep up. Now you're taking the proverbial...you want stiffer tyres, stiffer springs and the same unsprung seats...and still want comfort.

F...off!..says the car.
You've had your chance.
But, in return for this lack of comfort I will give you some ride qualities to make up for it. I will remain beautifully flat in and out of corners. I will handle transitions gracefully and communicate the forces applied to your bum and hands at all time. I will ensure that you can keep on the power on long sweeping corners.

Now you change back to T1Rs. Wow, car feels soft! But transitions are a bit more wallow-y and the car is slightly less communicative.

Now the adjustable dampers come into play! Softer tyres are taking a lot of the  impact, so you can adjust the dampers to not be as " compliant ". Let them react a bit quicker. Set it harder. Now the car had got some of its communicativeness back!

Ok. So you get the point.
"coilies" will make the ride less "comfortable", but pay you back in handling capability. Do you want that? Are you aware of the shortcomings of the stock car? Do you enjoy it thoroughly regardless? Why change it then?
Or, do you feel the need for correcting the slight imperfections that only present themselves under specific circumstances?

Final word is, if you don't know. Try it. Ask members on here for a drive. I mean a drive, not a passenger ride along.

I could extend this into the added effects of polybushes, braces, etc. But you get the drift and it opens up this topic into much deeper discussions of balance etc.

Hope you enjoyed it. Be well!

[Leethesparky]

Good read!! And spot on

I actually like the go-cart style of driving the 2 gives me. A bit harsh on the eyeball sockets but absolutely no lean on the corners. Makes me feel like I'm actually driving a sports car.
If I wanted it to be a comfortable drive comparable to my saab, I wouldn't have modified it!.

[Jrichards20]

 s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  Well said!

[lamcote]

Well, it's a point of view.

It might depend where you want to drive, on a track or on real roads. Or what the definition of "sporty" really is.

The McLaren F1 has pretty much identical spring frequency to the standard MR2 suspension, that's a pretty sporty car......

[cptspaulding]

Good read.

I've gone part way & I'm about to have new (stock) KYB struts installed with Eibach lowering springs. (I believe it was Eibach who supplied the TTE springs). I'm hoping this will go some way to mitigating the soft ride I'm experiencing with the T1R's & save me another wodge on replacing my rubber. Thanks Patrick.

[shnazzle]

Cheers guys.
Hopefully it helps a bit.
The flip side of this thread is the subjective one where people can say what their setup is (tyres,bracing,susprnsion, bushing) and how they feel it is and what benefits they feel it brings in various situations.

I've gone for Matt's brace, BC coilies and AD08s and I find it harsh at times when I've got the damping set for dry, fast, smooth b-roads. But i'm one of those that did notice the shortfalls of the stock setup and while it could be harnessed, it could do with correcting.
I take the occasional harshness gladly

[Jrichards20]

Well, it's a point of view.

It might depend where you want to drive, on a track or on real roads. Or what the definition of "sporty" really is.

The McLaren F1 has pretty much identical spring frequency to the standard MR2 suspension, that's a pretty sporty car......

I think the major point that he is trying to say here is that, if you go for coil overs, with some bracing, then yes of cause the ride is going to be harsher and yes of cause you are going to get a better drive through the corner. But I've seen a lot of posts of people that aren't bothered about track and aren't bothered about fast road setups, that are still enquiring into will coil overs make the ride harsher. Which of cause, the answer is going to be yes, a more detailed explanation above, but why are they asking the question in the first place. Which hopefully this thread gives them more information, that is clearly needed, so hopefully the same repeated threads don't come up over and over again.

[lamcote]

I think the point I am making is that you will only get "a better drive through the corner" on a tiny tiny percentage of corners ie if you can find a smooth one on today's roads. For all the other corners (and the straights) you are far better on the standard suspension.

If the assertion is that the standard spring rates are not sporty, it would appear that Gordon Murray might disagree.

[Jrichards20]

I think the point I am making is that you will only get "a better drive through the corner" on a tiny tiny percentage of corners ie if you can find a smooth one on today's roads. For all the other corners (and the straights) you are far better on the standard suspension.

If the assertion is that the standard spring rates are not sporty, it would appear that Gordon Murray might disagree.

Which is why I've added to my post "But I've seen a lot of posts of people that aren't bothered about track and aren't bothered about fast road setups, that are still enquiring into will coil overs make the ride harsher. Which of cause, the answer is going to be yes, a more detailed explanation above, but why are they asking the question in the first place."

Majority of the time, people question changing to coilovers because there suspension is becoming old and knackered. When moving form old and knackered suspension, to brand new stiffer coilovers, what do you in reality expect to happen. Ofcause the ride is going to become stiffer, and your going to feel more through the bumps. And ofcause, components that are mainly build for track and racing aren't going to provide anywhere near as much benefit on the road as they do on the track. Hopefully, people will becoming a little bit more informed about whether they really need coilovers or just a suspension refresh. The majority of people could just need a suspension refresh and be merrily on their way, saving an awful lot of money.

[shnazzle]

Hmm.. I really tried to write that without any opinion or position but this clearly has not worked.

I do clearly state that the MR2 was built to be sporty, so I'm not sure how this has turned towards the opposite.

Regardless... The physical fact remains that stiffer springs=stiffer ride and there's no way of getting around that.

Whether or not you feel the car needs it is up to you.

One famous quote is that a good MR2 driver will best a mediocre Mitsubishi EVO driver around the twists. So the stock MR2 is very very good. But depending on how you use the car it's either more than good enough or in need of slight improvements.
Playing with bracing and suspension are such improvements.

[Jrichards20]

Hmm.. I really tried to write that without any opinion or position but this clearly has not worked.

I do clearly state that the MR2 was built to be sporty, so I'm not sure how this has turned towards the opposite.

Regardless... The physical fact remains that stiffer springs=stiffer ride and there's no way of getting around that.

Whether or not you feel the car needs it is up to you.

One famous quote is that a good MR2 driver will best a mediocre Mitsubishi EVO driver around the twists. So the stock MR2 is very very good. But depending on how you use the car it's either more than good enough or in need of slight improvements.
Playing with bracing and suspension are such improvements.

I think what you have written is more factual than anything else, apart from possibly the MR2 was built to be sporty. I have two minds about this, without going OTT on the thread, there are plenty of places that Toyota could have made it a sports car, where in fact, the choose commuting components instead, a major point being the engine isn't a sporty engine, its built for economy.

Totally agree with the "idea" behind the post about stiffer = stiffer. And again with the comparison, I have seen a few very very talented drivers embarrass some expensive cars in the MR2.

[lamcote]

I take your point entirely, all I am saying is that in fact, stiff suspension will be slower on bumpy roads, so someone who is actually looking for a fast road set up may still be better with standard springs because roads have bumps, (even fast ones!).

There seems to be an assumption that fitting stiffer springs always results in a faster and or more enjoyable car for cornering. I am just suggesting that this may not be the case and that you can have the best of both worlds (comfort and highest speed, on real roads) with standard springs because the standard springs are stiff enough. If the standard springs were a lot softer than they are, I would agree stiffer springs would generally be beneficial.

EDIT: How many people have fitted coil overs and immediately driven along a wide, smooth but straight road rapidly turning the wheel from side to side saying "wow, feel the speed of response I've got now, this is so sporty" and from that point on never even think about whether they might actually be going faster on real roads with standard springs, because they are totally sold on the idea that stiff is fastest?

[shnazzle]

I'm not at all suggesting stiffer springs are generally beneficial. If anything I would prove the opposite.They're blatantly horrendous on a bumpy road and totally throw the ABS system out of whack, as I've experienced in North Yorkshire. I believe mulaz (Ian) said the same that day.

I purposely ended the discussion before it got into driving dynamics, road surfaces and specific uses (track, off road, motorways etc) as there are tons more factors that come into play.

Just to reiterate, the general thought was that if you feel you need them for how and where you're driving the car, then expect some additional discomfort. If you feel the current setup is more than sufficient, leave it well alone

[lamcote]

Hi, yes sorry, I'm really responding to Jrichards20 comments here.

[wotugonado]

Well in my brief ownership of coilovers, i am thoroughly pleased with them. They have for me improved the handling, they are slightly harder than stock
but with the level of dampening available, they can still be comfortable enough for uk roads. The slightly harder setting has for me improved the feel as i
am getting more feed back from the road.
I have had a few weekends with them now and i can definitely carry more speed through corners than on the stock suspension. I purposely did a before and after on one of my favourite roads and it went through the s bends better on the coilovers and felt as though it would handle more speed if i could have given it.
I was always pleased with the stock suspension but the coilovers have raised the bar......

[shnazzle]

That's just about the same seat-of-pants opinion I've got. Having said that, I can definitely carry more speed through corners.
But as stated above, when we met up for Stewart@Boro's North Yorkshire run, I struggled a bit when we were on the potholed single tracks. Abs was kicking in randomly and I was being jolted all over. Setting 15 on the BCs was a bit too much to ask.

It did clarify the damping a bit for me. It isn't a comfort setting. It has to match your spring rates and the roads you're on, along with what you're trying to do.
At the time I still thought...set it to its softest, it'll be like stock!... Wrong

[wotugonado]

I tried it yesterday on nearly full soft setting, it felt like i was going to bounce off the road   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  it was way to soft, Im about 20 clicks from hardest setting, which i feel is a good compromise for country lanes, on decent roads i go midway, and it feels good   s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

any opinions on setting the front and rear at different settings due to engine weight on rear ?

[shnazzle]

I'm running the rears 2 clicks harder but I haven't had an opportunity to confirm this is best.
I set it harder in the rear because when I turned in, the front was nice and pointy but the rear seemed a bit delayed to follow.
I put it up 2 notches and the rear was more keen to go where the front was pointing

[wotugonado]

i will try that tomorrow, did wonder if it should be different. Thanks

[Leethesparky]

I should be fitting my bc's tomorrow if I get time, so a few good pointers here for an initial setup with the clicks.

Get the impression it's best to start about half way then have a play either side, harder/softer.

 reason for buying coilovers - it's the only way I can get low enough. ... I need to be about 70mm lower than stock.

[shnazzle]

Ha you know what... I totally forgot about that angle. I totally forgot people buy coilies to lower their car.
Odd since I came from the hot hatch modified scene.

I'd say 10 from soft is a good intro position. In my opinion the ride becomes unbearable under 7 from soft. Too bouncy.

[ChrisGB]

I can only offer experience of the BC Racing setup with 4/6Kg springs, stock wheels and Toyo R888, lots of Corkys bracing. Yes, it is a firmer ride! These spring rates are approximately double the stock spring stiffness. Roll is reduced a lot, the cars responses are more immediate in both direction changes and weight transfer in braking or acceleration.

On really bad road surfaces, it cuts up rougher than the standard setup, however, we are talking the sort of surfaces where you wouldn't want to be pushing on in a car with stock suspension either. Where it scores significantly over stock suspension is in the following areas:

Wheel control. It is simply better. On rucked surfaces, the wheel patter on stock suspension was far worse and the car would be deflected off line where the BC equipped car soaks it up and keeps gripping. Similarly, mid corner bumps deflect the car less and for less time. Applied corrections take effect more quickly and need to be correspondingly less large.

Body control. Tighter. In situations where the stock suspension would float and get out of shape with mid corner rises or yumps, the BC equipped car is hanging on harder and more directly. It rises, settles and shows keen rebound control, so no lairy corkscrew effects that would have the stock setup tied in knots when pushing on really hard.

On limit behaviour is more confidence inspiring because you have less geometry change under load because of reduced roll / squat / dive. You also have a more immediate set of responses when corrective lock or throttle control is required making it easy to modulate the car near its limits.

Is it "better" or "worse" than standard suspension? Well, it is less comfortable (especially with the pillowball top mounts) if you define comfort as having a one second periodicity. It is not unpleasant, but firmer than normal road cars. Is it faster? In my experience, my car mostly being used as a B road entertainer, it is generally  much more secure over all the surfaces I would normally drive on. The only time it has ever really become a bit much was along part of the A27 on the Isle of Man heading up towards Peel. This was a very rough stretch last time I was there and the hammering dealt out to the suspension at 3 figure speeds was pretty intense. The BCs kept the wheels in touch with the road most of the time, the stock suspension would have seen the wheels mostly airborne at the same speed. Similarly, the rises, drops, yumps and bumps of the west leg of the Evo triangle never upset the BC setup once, even when working to contain the torque and reach of a breathed on 2GR, something stock suspension would really struggle with. Ultimately, it is faster on smooth and bumpy surfaces. There is possibly a point at which the stock suspension would be faster, but this is most likely the travel limit rather than spring stiffness. The BCs offer a firm but really supple, fluid ride and soak up bumps well, provided you don't wind the damping up too stiffly.

I think it all comes down to personal preference. If you are on stock power and want a friendly easy drive with approachable limits, stock is nice. If you have much more power, or want a more go kart like experience, or both, stiffer can be more satisfying, provided you don't live in an area where the B roads are really bad.

[lamcote]

OK at the risk of p***ing you all off even more with my refusal to accept that coil overs are best.......

I think a lot of what Chris has just described relates to having better quality damping, rather than stiffer springs, and that using standard springs with decent dampers could actually be a far better all round solution.

(......Puts tin helmet on)

[shnazzle]

You don't run any risk mate  s:) s:)   The point is to suggest that coilies may NOT be the best for everyone. So your point is very valid actually.
Frankly I think if springs with stock spring rates are available for BCs or MeisterRs then it would be quite interesting.

However... The damping needs to match the springs. So they'd need to be very very adjustable across a long range.
Do wonder if these exist though

[1979scotte]

I love my Meister R as everyone knows but what I really wanted was TRD sportivo shocks and springs.
They are a fare bit stiffer than stock with upgraded damping to match but still less harsh than the 5/7kg springs I have.
Alas way too much money imported from Japan.