M1tch's long term 1ZZ build - Project 11

Started by m1tch, April 8, 2017, 19:12

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m1tch

Hi all,

I have been researching recently into a project car that I can get behind and keep as an evolving long term project, the car will be a project car so not a daily driver but still usable on the road, I don't yet have the project car as of yet as I am in the process of moving house.The new house has plenty of garage/workshop and driveway space to be able to tweak and mod the car moving forward without the worry of needing to get it back together right away if I were a daily drive.

I will be planning on completing this project in stages, I wanted to just lay these out below as an example of what I am planning to do on the car, I will also be running the car down Santapod to get an idea of the 1/4 mile time, the low stock weight of the car is one of the reasons I have decided to chose this car. Please note that I am planning on a 2zz swap, but will have 2 x 2zz engines, one will be stock internally, the second will be built up whilst the other engine is in the car

Phase 0 - initial baseline

Stock 1zz engine
Stock weight
Service and check car over
Remove precat material

Phase 1 - bolt on mods on 1zz engine

Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Shortshifter
Stock weight

Phase 2 - Bolt on mods on 1zz with moderate weight reduction

Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Basic 'unbolt' weight reduction - tool kit, spare wheel, AC if it has it
Aftermarket wheels (small weight saving but unsprung weight)
Uprated suspension, brakes etc (possible weight saving)

Phase 3 - Maximise stock 1zz power to weight

Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
More drastic weight reduction - carpet/sound deadening, trim
Possible swap to lightened hard top with soft top removal

Phase 4 - Initial 2zz swap (engine 1)

Stock 2zz engine (swap kit with mounts, PnP ECU harness etc)
Intake and exhaust mods
Lightwieght flywheel
Uprated clutch
Uprated in tank fuel pump
Weight reduction as per previous stage
Power FC with commander

Phase 5 - Lightly boosted 2zz (will allow test fitting of forced induction parts such as manifold and exhaust without pulling the engine)

Stock engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Baffled oil sump
Weight reduction as per previous stage
Power FC with commander
Uprated injectors
Small turbo (to be decided)
Intercooler setup (to be decided)

Phase 6 - built 2zz swap (engine 2)

Forged 2zz - forged rods, forged pistons @ 9:1 CR
Darton dry liners
Uprated clutch
Uprated gearbox (to be decided)
'Stage 2 or 3' camshaft
Ported cylinder head
Turbo (to be decided)
Uprated valvetrain
Uprated driveshafts

As you can see from the planning above I will be doing everything in stages with the initial swap for a stock 2ZZ engine being a way to test fit everything and see what the performance gains are with the different configurations, initially I will be looking to see how far the stock 1ZZ can go with a few bolt ons.

One thing to note is that I am going after power to weight ratio, having an easy 2zz swap on the cards means that I will be able to bolt in the engine the car really should have had when it launched, it will be a learning curve and I know that things will break which is why it won't be a daily drive but still have an MOT and run on normal fuel.

A slight side note, I have previously owned an RX7 FC3S, I do find piston engined turbos and fuel systems quite small in comparison, the fuel system on the FC before I sold it had 2 x 550cc injectors as primaries with 2 x 1680cc as secondaries, I also had an inlet manifold that could take a further 4 injectors if needed.

I first heard about how good the 2zz can be tuned by reading about Frank Profera's compound charged Lotus, I don't plan to go that extreme but it shows how far it can be taken for power to weight:

http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/epcp-1007-2005-lotus-elise/

Here are some initial power and weight goals - using an online 1/4 mile time calculator:

Stage 0 = Stock 1zz engine = 140bhp, Stock weight 996kg - 143 bhp per ton, 15.81 quarter mile @ 86 mph
Stage 4 = Stock 2zz engine = 190bhp, weight reduced to 900kg - 214 bhp per ton, 13.6 quarter mile @ 100 mph
Stage 6 = Fully built 2zz = 400 bhp, weight reduced to 850kg = 478 bhp per ton, 11.46 quarter mile @ 123 mph

Note, a bone stock FC3S can run a 14.2 second 1/4 mile @ 99.02 mph - have found it hard to find a car that could possibly match it considering the you can easily run 4-500bhp out of a 13b, issue with the FC3S is that they are now getting rare and also starting to rust away, wanted to look for a slightly newer car with the same sort of light weight potential.

Will be getting the car in the next 3 months or so, currently doing research but will be looking at a 2003 or later face lift model with the standard 6 speed box.

1979scotte

#1
I am of the opion if you plan to go forged 2zz forced induction you may aswell just keep the 1zz and forge that.
You will need a stronger transmission. The C series box is only good for 250 torque.
I have gone for V6 because i want more torque and the gearboxes are stonger.

FC3S i had to google.
RX7 not scared of burning a little oil then.
Pretty sure a 2 will handle a bit better and a good 150kg lighter. FL are a bit heavier. Mine was 1050 when corner weighted. Half tank fuel.
Hopefully use less oil and fuel too.
Also if planning an engine swap anyway why not buy something with a shot engine.
If you want a good car Shieldsontour has one for sale good car last time i saw it.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#2
Quote from: "1979scotte"I am of the opion if you plan to go forged 2zz forced induction you may aswell just keep the 1zz and forge that.
You will need a stronger transmission. The C series box is only good for 250 torque.
I have gone for V6 because i want more torque and the gearboxes are stonger.

FC3S i had to google.
RX7 not scared of burning a little oil then.
Pretty sure a 2 will handle a bit better and a good 150kg lighter. FL are a bit heavier. Mine was 1050 when corner weighted. Half tank fuel.
Hopefully use less oil and fuel too.
Also if planning an engine swap anyway why not buy something with a shot engine.
If you want a good car Shieldsontour has one for sale good car last time i saw it.

There seem to be more parts for the 2ZZ and I also like the fact that it has VVTL-i rather than just VVT-i, there is an easy standalone ECU swap with the PFC and the 2ZZ block is apparently also stronger in terms of its makeup and has a better flowing head.

I will be looking to fit a Toyota E153 gearbox I think, again its a long term project but the gearbox should be able to handle the power, considering the gearbox will only need to be uprated with the fully built 2ZZ engine I have a while to get part together.

The FB was the 1st generation RX7, the FC3S was the 2nd generation (ending in 1991) and the FD3S was the 3rd and final generation (ending in around 2002), there was also the Mazda Cosmo with the 2 litre 20B 3 rotor which can be boosted to around 1,200bhp, or go for a custom 2.6 litre 4 rotor with around 1,600 bhp - think there is also a 6 rotor someone is building. There is  a lot of misinformation with the RX7s, they are meant to burn oil, they run a total loss oil system, the engine has an oil metering pump which injects oil via the oil injectors to keep the rotors lubricated - the oil can't exactly drain back into the sump as the whole housing is the combustion wall. You can however just switch over to running 2 stroke oil in the fuel or run a conversion kit to run 2 stroke oil via the OEM oil metering pump. Also, the higher the engine spins, the more the apex seals seal against the housing meaning even more power - basically make sure that the engine doesn't run lean on boost and it will be fine. Its usually the owner or a bad tuner who messes the engine up rather than the engine design itself, need to get the engine up to temp before driving it off due to the mix of metals expanding at different rates. The RX7 was the last proper rotary powered car made, the RX8 was terrible in comparison, chassis was good, engine was rubbish as it was NA - anyhow I digress.

I am planning an engine swap at some point, probably in about 2 years time, I would like to drive and enjoy the MR2 in the mean time though and I would also need to source the parts and go through the engine to check everything before installing it.

Thanks for the update in the car weight, until I actually get the car weighed I don't know where I am starting from, should be able to pull a fair bit out with just unbolting items anyhow - I would rather go with the FL car due to the extra chassis braces which do add weight but are beneficial.

1979scotte

#3
No offence meant.
I know how a rotary engine works. Whatched a video only last week.  s;) ;) s;)
I love the FDS3. I always think of it as THE RX7.
There is a PFC for the 1zz too.
Tbh i think the pfc is past it. I know it plugs straight in but you cant run a map sensor easily and i dont think it accepts afr or egt input. Link monsoon or ECUmaster would be my choice.
2zz rods are way way stronger.
Yamaha know how to design a head no doubt.
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH BRACING.
Especially in a ragtop.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#4
Quote from: "1979scotte"No offence meant.
I know how a rotary engine works. Whatched a video only last week.  s;) ;) s;)
I love the FDS3. I always think of it as THE RX7.
There is a PFC for the 1zz too.
Tbh i think the pfc is past it. I know it plugs straight in but you cant run a map sensor easily and i dont think it accepts afr or egt input. Link monsoon or ECUmaster would be my choice.
2zz rods are way way stronger.
Yamaha know how to design a head no doubt.
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH BRACING.
Especially in a ragtop.

No worries, I am just passionate about rotary engines, its a shame they aren't around anymore, the FD3S is the RX7 everyone really knows, I just went with the FC3S as I liked the classic lines plus its got a single turbo and much more engine bay space rather than the slightly problematic twin turbo setup on the FD.

Hmm i will look into ECU options, I had a Greddy Emanage Ultimate in the FC, with the wideband O2 it could map itself whilst driving along which was handy, will look at some options, the PFC was the go to choice on the FD.

Stronger rods are always good, I think the 1zz rods are cast but I guess it also had a fairly low power output as stock.

Yeah ideally you want a coupe rather than a soft top for a sports car, I have had 3 mk1 MX5s and they were fine but its always odd when a sports car seems to mean its a soft top when its actually detrimental to the handling of the car - will be bracing the thing up don't worry!

1979scotte

#5
We dont talk about MX5s.
They are the mx5
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#6
Quote from: "1979scotte"We dont talk about MX5s.
They are the "car with engine in wrong place"

This would be why I have seen the error of my ways and have joined this forum  s:) :) s:)  a mate of mine had a mk3 ages ago and was always raving about how it would out corner pretty much anything.

I would look to do something like a K swap into it due to the additional parts I could get, but I feel that the 2ZZ is the engine the car should have been shipped with so I am pretty much finishing it off so to speak - at least its still a jap engine  s:) :) s:)

I can see that Monkey Wrench Racing have swap kits for them but I would rather stay with the 'standard' 2zz swap, good news is that it looks like they have a plug and play patch cable for the E-manage ultimate which is great as it was rather a faff trying to source patch cable for the FC to then manually splice in the connectors.

trackkingracing

#7
Love the plans. Seems like you have a set plan of attack. Never a bad thing at all. My build thread may be able to help you with the 2zz turbo aspect of your build. As for a tuning solution I went with aem ems4. Seems to have much more features then others available and more safe guards. Looking forward to seeing more of your build. Originally I actually wanted to swap in a rotary to the mr-s but saw the 2zz as a piston version of just that .  The motors are very similar for being so different in even the core basis of design. They just behave similar.

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m1tch

#8
Quote from: "trackkingracing"Love the plans. Seems like you have a set plan of attack. Never a bad thing at all. My build thread may be able to help you with the 2zz turbo aspect of your build. As for a tuning solution I went with aem ems4. Seems to have much more features then others available and more safe guards. Looking forward to seeing more of your build. Originally I actually wanted to swap in a rotary to the mr-s but saw the 2zz as a piston version of just that .  The motors are very similar for being so different in even the core basis of design. They just behave similar.

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Will check your build thread out as well, I will also check out the AEM system along the way, I don't think I need to go full Motec but need something better than a megasquirt!

I might look to collapse the engine build down slightly and the 2zz build will be the fully built engine just initially running without boost so that I don't need to drop and swap an engine twice.

For the forged engine the plan is:

Forged rods (still deciding on brand)
Wiseco forged pistons @ 9:1 CR
Stage 2/stage 3 cam from MWR (will decide on this at a later date)
Uprated valve springs + retains
Stock sized valves, might look at upgraded valve options but not really needing to go for a higher than stock rev limit
Uprated oil pump
Baffled sump
Stock head, lightly ported to match gaskets
Water/meth injections

Main cost for the project engine is that I am going to get some Darton dry sleeves installed in the block which will allow me to happily run whatever piston I want without the MMC causing issues, will also help keep the bores round on boost - high cost due to machining but will allow me to reuse the engine again if it needs re boring out.

I will also need to look into gearbox options as although the stock 1ZZ 6 speed with LSD fits on the 2ZZ, I would need the box to be stronger so need to see whats out there if I am unable to upgrade the internals - want to keep the LSD.

1979scotte

#9
E153 box is the common big power swap but its only 5 speed and the ratios could not be optimal.
EA series diesel boxes have been done. 6 speed good choice of ratio but more complicated and expensive.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#10
Quote from: "1979scotte"E153 box is the common big power swap but its only 5 speed and the ratios could not be optimal.
EA series diesel boxes have been done. 6 speed good choice of ratio but more complicated and expensive.

I know that MWR have an E153 conversion kit but it's big money, might be able to source the box myself and then get the adaptor plates etc if I go that route - wonder if you could run the E153 box and change the final drive ratio? I guess the other option is the drop in a 3S-GE engine with forged internals meaning that I could bolt on the E153 box as standard. One of my project car parameters was to not do engine swaps as those are usually fairly expensive and can be harder to get running, because the 2zz is a direct drop in I don't really see it as an engine swap so the MR2 qualifies for the project car.

Also noticed this thread on a Lotus forum with someone running almost 400whp out of a stock block 2ZZ, it was on E85 though but will be interesting to see which box they were running:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f160/391-whp-stock-2zz-turbo-179386/

Will have a look to see what turbos I have sitting on the shelf, think I might have some a few smaller turbos kicking around but looks like the GT30/35 sized turbo should be around the right size, t28 is also an option as I know those are fitted onto the 1.8 MX5 engines.

1979scotte

#11
Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#12
Quote from: "1979scotte"Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.

I have found some uprated gears for the stock box but I don't think they will suffice in terms of torque, wonder if there is any commonality between the C and E series boxes to be able to swap the E gears into the C box.

1979scotte

#13
Jubu gears?
Expensive.
Think mattperformance had them fornhis track car.
I believe they handle more than what they are rated too.

Unlikely C and E cogs can be swapped it would have been done.
C is tiny E is huge.

Dont put a 3s engine in they weigh a ton. My V6 is lighter.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

shnazzle

#14
Quote from: "m1tch"
Quote from: "1979scotte"Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.

I have found some uprated gears for the stock box but I don't think they will suffice in terms of torque, wonder if there is any commonality between the C and E series boxes to be able to swap the E gears into the C box.
Isn't that what Mattperformance had on his 450+ hp track car? And uprated drive shafts right?

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1979scotte

#15
Quote from: "shnazzle"
Quote from: "m1tch"
Quote from: "1979scotte"Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.

I have found some uprated gears for the stock box but I don't think they will suffice in terms of torque, wonder if there is any commonality between the C and E series boxes to be able to swap the E gears into the C box.
Isn't that what Mattperformance had on his 450+ hp track car? And uprated drive shafts right?

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I thought tx400 had JUBU gears but i could be wrong.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

shnazzle

#16
It does. So if it can handle that much... Seems good enough for me. I'd not sacrifice the good 1zz box unnecessarily. Unlikely any of us are going to run 350+ on it anyway.

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...neutiquam erro.

1979scotte

#17
Quote from: "shnazzle"It does. So if it can handle that much... Seems good enough for me. I'd not sacrifice the good 1zz box unnecessarily. Unlikely any of us are going to run 350+ on it anyway.

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Have you seen the price of the JUBU gears!
£730 just for 3rd and 4th.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#18
Quote from: "1979scotte"
Quote from: "shnazzle"It does. So if it can handle that much... Seems good enough for me. I'd not sacrifice the good 1zz box unnecessarily. Unlikely any of us are going to run 350+ on it anyway.

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Have you seen the price of the JUBU gears!
£730 just for 3rd and 4th.

I guess it's due to the fact that it's quite a specific need, I am going to look into different box options, have a while before I need to work something out - would be interesting to see if the gears from the Toyota E boxes fit in the C boxes - is it just a case that the OEM gears fail or are there other shortcomings when adding power to the box?

Just checking out some other threads on other forums, seems that around 250bhp or around 285 ft/lb torque is the limit with 3rd gear being the weak link along with the driveshafts.

It would seem that the C transmission is great for the 1zz and 2zz in lightly boosted applications but not for the power levels reliably above that - looks like I will probably go with the E153 swap as an option, need to see what parts are required and perhaps source the box separately and then get a conversion kit for it, I can then work out gearing to see if I need to change the final drive.

Another thing that flagged up was the lack of an oil cooler on the C transmissions vs a cooler on the E transmissions so it also sounds like the heat also kills the C transmissions.

Just doing some additional reading it seems that the MWR kit isn't that good, coupled with the e153 being quite heavy, it seems that some are offering upgraded transmission setups for the C64 transmissions fitted to the Lotus to make them work better with 3rd and 4th seemingly being the issues:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25/better-c64-transmission-310161/

https://www.blackwatchracing.com/product-p/1031.htm

https://www.blackwatchracing.com/Blackwatch-Ra-C6X-Upgraded-3rd-4th-Helical-Lotus-p/1240.htm

It also seems to show that its the hard launches or wheel hop that really breaks the box so I need to look into how I can reduce this without going for drag radials etc, when I do drag launches I don't really hard launch, I usually slip the clutch which when builds up engine load spooling the turbo quicker and giving a smoother launch.

I have also read that someone had some truck gears swapped into the box instead - might look to see the compatibility between gearboxes, Toyota might use the same gear splines so might be able to find something beefier to swap out 3rd and 4th from an OEM perspective - its a bit like those who run TDI gearbox parts in higher BHP petrol applications.

m1tch

#19
Just doing some additional research I might look to change my plans slightly with regards to big power (might still be on the cards at a later date though mainly due to the gearbox power issues.

I have run some calculations with regards to quarter mile drag times in terms of bhp per ton and found that its calculating that to run a very respectable 12 second pass its suggesting around the 250bhp per ton mark.

This would mean that I could run a low boosted 2zz engine to then just about retain the stock box (perhaps adding in an oil cooler) to get to a 12 second pass.

I am attacking this from 2 directions regarding reduction in weight and and increase in power, by using a figure of around 950kg it would seem that I would need to get around 225-250bhp out of the engine to get to the goal. If I can pull slightly more weight out of it (perhaps running with only the driver's seat) I might be able to get into the 12s with around 220bhp.

Need to look into this gearbox issue, the power issue isn't the problem but its being able to transmit the power down without needing to go massively custom and expensive.

At the slightly lower power levels needed from the 2ZZ engine I might be able to get away with simply running uprated pistons and rods rather than bore liners etc.

1979scotte

#20
You can get 250bhp out of a 1zz with T25/28 and a decent map.
My turbo 1zz makes 235.
Have seen rotrex 2zz pumping out 300bhp on stock internals and box.
Low torque doesnt stress the mechanicals.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#21
Quote from: "1979scotte"You can get 250bhp out of a 1zz with T25/28 and a decent map.
My turbo 1zz makes 235.
Have seen rotrex 2zz pumping out 300bhp on stock internals and box.
Low torque doesnt stress the mechanicals.

Thanks for this info, I did google around asking about the 1zz max power on internals and most are saying its ok on '6 psi'....6 psi on what turbo? GT45 lol

I might look to tweak my plan slightly and perhaps turbo the 1zz initially and see where that gets me, I know with some VAG/Audi mapping they run a reduced torque map if running on stock rods to stop them bending, might be able to do the same with this project's ECU mapping.

I really do like the idea of the VVTL-i 2ZZ though, could look to swap out the rods in the 1zz for a bit of safety - what boost level are you running with your setup? It seems that with your current power output and around 960kg the car could run a high 12 1/4 mile.

Will have a further research into different setups - thanks for the info!

shnazzle

#22
Definitely not 6psi as the SP240 kit runs closer to 9psi. 6psi is the stock wastegate pressure for the T25 turbo used

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m1tch

#23
Quote from: "shnazzle"Definitely not 6psi as the SP240 kit runs closer to 9psi. 6psi is the stock wastegate pressure for the T25 turbo used

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As mentioned before, the size of the turbo would also need to be taken into account as 9psi on a gt35 would flow far more than a gt28 for example.

I am now tempted to look at boosting the stock 1zz but then still look to build up a 2zz at some point as well. I didn't know that the 1zz could be boosted over 200, will look to get an AEM ECU as that will do both the 1zz and the 2zz in the future with the addition of the VVTL harness add on.

1979scotte

#24
9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦