M1tch's long term 1ZZ build - Project 11

Started by m1tch, April 8, 2017, 19:12

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m1tch

#25
Quote from: "1979scotte"9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.

Ah a Saab 9000 turbo, might look at the K03 or k04 turbo as well as I know you can get mid 300bhp out of the K03 on the TFSI engines so might be another option as they are quite cheap and plentiful. Will check out compressor maps.

1979scotte

#26
Quote from: "m1tch"
Quote from: "1979scotte"9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.

Ah a Saab 9000 turbo, might look at the K03 or k04 turbo as well as I know you can get mid 300bhp out of the K03 on the TFSI engines so might be another option as they are quite cheap and plentiful. Will check out compressor maps.

Anything that will mate to a t2 or a t3 flange is good because you can get the cast manifolds from either Denmark or Bulgaria and they arent too dear.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#27
Quote from: "1979scotte"
Quote from: "m1tch"
Quote from: "1979scotte"9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.

Ah a Saab 9000 turbo, might look at the K03 or k04 turbo as well as I know you can get mid 300bhp out of the K03 on the TFSI engines so might be another option as they are quite cheap and plentiful. Will check out compressor maps.

Anything that will mate to a t2 or a t3 flange is good because you can get the cast manifolds from either Denmark or Bulgaria and they arent too dear.

Ah, will check out some t3 turbos I think, guessing I would need a different manifold for the 2zz though as (just guessing) the head stud pattern won't be the same? Which supplier did you use to get the manifold btw? Can only really see the 2zz manifolds floating around.

shnazzle

#28
Isn't Viet Tran selling a nice 2zz turbo (t3 I believe) manifold on Facebook?

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...neutiquam erro.

m1tch

#29
Quote from: "shnazzle"Isn't Viet Tran selling a nice 2zz turbo (t3 I believe) manifold on Facebook?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

The turbo part of this project is probably about a year away - need to actually get the project car first lol.

Are the 1zz and 2zz turbo manifolds interchangeable?

1979scotte

#30
 m http://tuning-parts.bg/manifold/1324/ m

the ammount i times i have posted that link is silly.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

jonty

#31
Mitch i was going to suggest rotrex but Scotte beat me to it. If those maximum torque figures are accurate then you can still make up to 350bhp at 6500rpm.

I have a c30-74 rotrex on a shelf somewhere, should push about 260 on an internally stock 2zz, c30-94 will get 350bhp. Plenty of power!

1979scotte

#32
C30 94 Is the one to go for.

 m http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/super ... -kits.html m
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#33
Quote from: "jonty"Mitch i was going to suggest rotrex but Scotte beat me to it. If those maximum torque figures are accurate then you can still make up to 350bhp at 6500rpm.

I have a c30-74 rotrex on a shelf somewhere, should push about 260 on an internally stock 2zz, c30-94 will get 350bhp. Plenty of power!

Thanks for the info, will look into the rotrex although I personally prefer turbos as its simply using waste energy to make energy rather than using up engine power to make power - guess it's probably due to always having a turbo.

Will weigh up the pros and cons of it, I think if I size the turbo correctly there shouldn't be any lag, would still have to run oil lines for the Rotrex plus mount the SC on the engine and run belts vs the turbo which would simply bolt onto the exhaust, going the turbo route it seems that as the 1zz and 2zz manifolds are interchangeable I could simply unbolt the setup from the 1zz and bolt it onto the 2zz engine.

Another option COULD be to run nitrous on the stock 1zz engine, using the AEM ECU it might be a way to run a wet shot nitrous kit progressively (aka no 'fast and the furious' style!) - would give me the power level but without the added weight as I wouldn't need full power all the time.

Here is a revised plan now that I know the 1zz can run some pretty respectable figures (although will still look into nitrous):

Phase 0 - initial baseline

Stock 1zz engine
Stock weight
Service and check car over
Remove precat material

Phase 1 - bolt on mods on 1zz engine

Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Shortshifter
Stock weight

Phase 2 - Bolt on mods on 1zz with moderate weight reduction

Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
AEM ECU
Uprated injectors
Uprated in take fuel pump
Basic 'unbolt' weight reduction - tool kit, spare wheel, AC if it has it
Aftermarket wheels (small weight saving but unsprung weight)
Uprated suspension, brakes etc (possible weight saving)

Phase 3 - Maximise stock 1zz power to weight

Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Lightweight flywheel
Uprated clutch
More drastic weight reduction - carpet/sound deadening, trim
Possible swap to lightened hard top with soft top removal

Phase 4 - Forced induction on stock 1zz

Stock 1zz engine
Turbo/supercharger
Intercooler/charge cooler depending on space, weight and complexity

-------------- Increased power past this point requires a better gearbox ------------------------------

Phase 5 - built 2zz swap

Forged 2zz - forged rods, forged pistons @ 9:1 CR
Darton dry liners (piston dependent)
Uprated clutch
Uprated gearbox (to be decided)
'Stage 2 or 3' camshaft
Ported cylinder head
Turbo/supercharger from 1zz engine
Uprated and lightened valvetrain
Uprated driveshafts

Notes:

Limiting factor on this project will be the gearbox, I don't want to go with an E153 box due to additional weight and incorrect gears, I have seen that black watch racing does have uprated gearboxes for the Lotus including an uprated gearset but its in the US and its big money. Unsure why Toyota have such chocolate gearboxes owing to the fact that they make high power engines, will have to look into options without breaking the bank too much as at this rate the box will cost more than the engine and several times more than the car.

Will be looking into turbo and supercharger options as well as possible nitrous use instead of a turbo or supercharger on the initial 1zz build - I could swap rods out in the 1zz engine however the issue is the gearbox it seems so I can easily make more power but I won't be able to transfer the power onto the ground.

Initial target time for the project is to run a 12 second 1/4 mile pass, I have a feeling that the boosted 1zz might be able to make this target but it would depend on how low I can get the weight considering the car is already very light (one of the reasons behind going for the MR2 mk3).

WIll be running the AEM ECU as this is a simply plug and play setup onto the factory loom and will allow me to simply configure the ECU to the engine, would need an VVTL-i connector when the 2zz is dropped in.

MrT

#34
Hi m1tch
I agree with Rotrex option. They are brilliant units and ultra efficient.

Also, turbos don't use waste energy, they actually are less efficient than a Rotrex. By using exhaust gas they slow the gasses and create excess back pressure (remember turbo lag?) which hinders engine performance. But once boosting the added boost advantage exceeds the back pressure to give greater benefit than hindrance. The Rotrex makes constant boost always providing extra air to the engine and is proportional to engine speed so it does not bog the engine down at low speeds, actually helps significantly. Only thing you might miss is the sudden whoosh of boost from a Turbo coming off lag but that is what introduces people to hedges and ditches... Then again, a 2ZZ with Rotrex would still 'whoosh' when the cams come on as the engine breathes better and takes off. Nice thing is it keeps its power band with the Rotrex.

But good luck with your build, I look forward to the progress.
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

m1tch

#35
Quote from: "MrT"Hi m1tch
I agree with Rotrex option. They are brilliant units and ultra efficient.

Also, turbos don't use waste energy, they actually are less efficient than a Rotrex. By using exhaust gas they slow the gasses and create excess back pressure (remember turbo lag?) which hinders engine performance. But once boosting the added boost advantage exceeds the back pressure to give greater benefit than hindrance. The Rotrex makes constant boost always providing extra air to the engine and is proportional to engine speed so it does not bog the engine down at low speeds, actually helps significantly. Only thing you might miss is the sudden whoosh of boost from a Turbo coming off lag but that is what introduces people to hedges and ditches... Then again, a 2ZZ with Rotrex would still 'whoosh' when the cams come on as the engine breathes better and takes off. Nice thing is it keeps its power band with the Rotrex.

But good luck with your build, I look forward to the progress.

Will initially running the car NA and get everything maintained and upgraded where needed, will have a look at the Rotrex options when the time comes to run forced induction, if the turbo is correctly sized then it shouldn't mean any lag, I do see the appeal of a linear power curve, however without swapping out the pulley I can't run less or more boost or change the boost depending on gear etc.

MrT

#36
Fair points, and there isn't a one fits all solution. Well almost, someone finally did what I thought of ages ago, fitted a planetary gear to a Rotrex type traction drive with a secondary electic motor to adjust SC speed or even spool it up at idle. That gives you everything you just asked for, Turbo and SC benefits... But only OEM development at the moment.
Cheers
Tyler

RIPieces: Sable \'05 Roadster \'Red\' edition.
Project: MR-S import (JDM) now my toy and mule for:
SC build OR a 2AR-FXE swap (ref: Frankenstein Motorworks) OR Electric conversion
AND rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

m1tch

#37
Quote from: "MrT"Fair points, and there isn't a one fits all solution. Well almost, someone finally did what I thought of ages ago, fitted a planetary gear to a Rotrex type traction drive with a secondary electic motor to adjust SC speed or even spool it up at idle. That gives you everything you just asked for, Turbo and SC benefits... But only OEM development at the moment.

Hmm that's an interesting proposition, would certainly be an interesting way to run different boost levels or as you said run an amount of boost on idle, I will defiantly look into the option when I come to it, now that I know that the 1zz is ok for some boost as well as the gearbox being ok to take a bit more power it opens up a few more options.

Currently looking into the baffled sumps you can get, I believe the 1zz sump is slightly baffled vs no baffles on the 2zz, but I would be looking to run a larger baffled sump day to day as it seems that the oil capacity is quite low whereas it uses a huge volume of coolant!

m1tch

#38
Still looking at all of the options, good news is that I should be moving house this week so I will have a garage to support getting the MR2 and space to work as well.

Looking at all of the options so far I think I will be initially going for the 1zz turbo route when I do go for more power than simple intake and exhaust bolt ons (after the brakes, suspension and weight saving).

I can see that the 1zz rods are the weak point but these could be swapped out and not need the engine to be sleeved as its not got the MMC coating like the 2zz engine. Still deciding on if I want to go with a 2zz swap as 1979scotte has mentioned that you can get low 200bhp from a lightly boosted 1zz on stock internals which is slightly more than an 2zz swap (although NA).

I will still consider a 2zz swap at some point, however I would need to budget in a gearbox rebuild (to swap in the LSD etc) plus possibly sleeving the 2zz block to run aftermarket pistons - might as well stick with the 1zz engine and forge that instead.

I have a feeling my upgrade path will probably be:

Stock 1zz full weight
Stock 1zz with bolt ons
Stock 1zz with bolt ons and weight saving
Lightly boosted 1zz
Rebuilt 1zz with lower CR pistons and forged rods running light boost/slightly higher boost every now and then

To be fair the engine will probably be fine with low boost on stock internals, but its more about peace of mind knowing that the internals are meant for boost for me to upgrade - also need to make sure that the bores are oval as well!

m1tch

#39
Moving into my new house this Friday so will take a few weeks to sort out a few things before looking to buy the project MR2 - measured up the garage yesterday ready for it to be turned into a workshop  s:) :) s:)

m1tch

#40
All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.

1979scotte

#41
Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.

Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#42
Quote from: "1979scotte"
Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.

Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.

Thanks for that, I think if the mileage on the 1zz engine was lower I might have looked to lightly boost it on stock internals, think I will instead go with the 2zz swap instead and simply enjoy the 1zz power for the time being whilst I tidy up the car and sort any issues I find.

I might look to get my hands on a 2zz and then swap out a few parts before the engine goes in, checking lift bolts, timing chain, oil pump, sump and might look to swap out to lower compression pistons as I know the stock 2zz rods are fairly beefy.

I have my eye on the AEM EMS4 standalone ECU, I am guessing you can simply swap over the base maps when the engine is swapped out and use the stock connectors etc as the ECU would then know which ECU pinout is which on each of the looms.

Hopefully will pick the car up new weekend but I already know there are a few things that need attention:

Full oil and filter service (running aftermarket panel filter already)
Front and rear number plates need changing as they have deteriorated
Wheels need a complete refurb
Few seams on the soft top have pulled apart slightly, softtop itself is still fine though
I noticed a slight oil leak which I believe might be the rocker cover gasket
Polish up the headlights as although they don't look bad they could do with some attention as they aren't perfectly clear
Need to check the exhaust fully, might remove the rear bumper to check everything back there, its a TTE exhaust though and the manifold has been replaced with a decat version

brettfield999

#43
Quote from: "1979scotte"
Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.

Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.

+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT!  U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required.  And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money.  I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.
[strike]2000 Blue PFL MR2 Roadster with 187K, engine blown[/strike]<br />[strike]2000 Blue MRS, 80K[/strike]<br />[strike]2001 Blue PFL MR2 Roadster 131K, 2ZZ,[/strike]<br />[strike]2003 Silver FL MR2 Roadster with 81K now daily driver, 2ZZ by Headcase[/strike]

m1tch

#44
Quote from: "brettfield999"
Quote from: "1979scotte"
Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.

Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.

+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT!  U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required.  And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money.  I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.

Will see how things progress, I know that the 2zz has the MMC on the bores so only certain pistons are happy unlike the 1zz which can be rebored if needed making the 2zz kinda a 'single use' engine unless you get dry liners fitted at £££s.

1979scotte

#45
Quote from: "m1tch"
Quote from: "brettfield999"
Quote from: "1979scotte"Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.

+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT!  U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required.  And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money.  I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.

Will see how things progress, I know that the 2zz has the MMC on the bores so only certain pistons are happy unlike the 1zz which can be rebored if needed making the 2zz kinda a 'single use' engine unless you get dry liners fitted at £££s.

Yes but 1zz pistons and rods cant be sourced for reasonable money within the uk.
2zz doesnt need rods and pistons arent too dear. Comparibly.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

m1tch

#46
Quote from: "1979scotte"
Quote from: "m1tch"
Quote from: "brettfield999"+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT!  U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required.  And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money.  I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.

Will see how things progress, I know that the 2zz has the MMC on the bores so only certain pistons are happy unlike the 1zz which can be rebored if needed making the 2zz kinda a 'single use' engine unless you get dry liners fitted at £££s.

Yes but 1zz pistons and rods cant be sourced for reasonable money within the uk.
2zz doesnt need rods and pistons arent too dear. Comparibly.

I think I am going to go the 2zz route after a piston upgrade, have seen the Wiesco 9:1 pistons that are ok with the MMC bore coating, will probably sort out the 2zz engine sooner rather than later so I can work on it a bit before doing the swap.

I will keep the 1zz internally stock but will do a few mods to it in the mean time, the car already had a decatted precat header, panel filter and TTE exhaust, will work on the few issues already flagged up, will keep the stock ECU for the 1zz and then probably go with the AEM EMS-4 when I swap over to the 2zz - unless I can get a basemap for both 1zz and 2zz engines to warrant running a remap on the 1zz although I don't think it will be worth it.

m1tch

#47
Right, I have now collected the car, here is the spec:

2003 Facelift
175,000 miles
I am the 3rd owner
Previous owner had it from 105,000 miles and has done a lot of motorway driving
TTE exhaust
TTE rear spoiler
Very short shortshifter
Decatted manifold
Panel air filter with cold air intake pipework

After driving it back I can see that the car is well balanced and responsive, although I haven't revved it all the way up (still getting to know the car) I can tell that its not the most powerful engine, I have a feeling my daily drive turbo diesel Fiesta has more torque!

Here are some photos from collection:






Anyway, overall the car is pretty good as a base, here is a list of a few things that need sorting though:

Wheels need a refurb as they are quite badly flaking
Rattle at lower RPMs, unsure if this is a heatshield or if its chain rattle - timing chain I believe is OEM stock
Rear tyres are probably needed, might get new tyres front and back - previous owner bought premium but budget tyres and are missmatching brands due to not having the same brand for both front and rear tyre sizes
New numberplates as they are cracked and damaged
New rocker cover gasket - there seems to be a fairly slow leak down one side with that side of the engine being caked in oil
Check to see if any error comes come back - I read the codes and they are coming up with a few O2 heater codes, check engine light bulb seems to have been removed - will keep checking to see if they come back
Oil and filters were changed last month so that's ok
Passenger door window doesn't open/work
OEM radio doesn't work although I believe this has been disabled due to an issue with the electric mast
Headlights are slightly cloudy
Car doesn't apparently really use much oil, I have a feeling that the leak on the rocker cover gasket might be the issue
I have 1 fully working standard key, a valet key and a fob where it seems the blade has snapped off
Brakes and pads are in ok condition but could be good to change them out soon

Mods/service items planned so far:

Hard top with fitting kit being collected by the end of the month - will be repainting it before I get the rouge hardtop solid mounts
LED interior light as the OEM one is rubbish
Replace numberplates with either pressed or plastic
Replace rear tyres
Change rocket cover gasket whilst checking the tension of the chain
Polish up headlights
Get replacement blade and case and move internals of damaged fob over to new fob as it all works still
Debadge rear lettering
Brake pad and disc change
Shifter extension to make it a bit easier to change gear with the very short shortshifter fitted

I will hopefully run the car at Santapod to get an idea of the 1/4 mile time for straighline speed, I will then start looking at some weight reduction, V5 states that the car is 1,140kg - unsure if this takes into account the TTE exhaust though.

Call the midlife!

#48
All sounds good. 3 things if you haven't already checked/had suggested. Passenger window lock switch, timing chain tensioner oil seal if the leak is top, right hand corner and is the weight on the V5 gross vehicle weight or kerb? I can't remember but I know my FL is supposed to be 950 from the factory..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
60% of the time it works everytime...

m1tch

#49
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"All sounds good. 3 things if you haven't already checked/had suggested. Passenger window lock switch, timing chain tensioner oil seal if the leak is top, right hand corner and is the weight on the V5 gross vehicle weight or kerb? I can't remember but I know my FL is supposed to be 950 from the factory..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for that:

Ah that might be a simple fix for the passenger window!
The leak seems to be top right when looking at the ending, will try and get a photo - sounds like it might be the oil seal though
Will check the plate for the actual weight - the V5 states 'weight in transit' I think