Crunch time. Shnazzle's mr2 part 2

[shnazzle]

Didn't want to dirty up my reader's ride until I know what I'm doing sooo...

 
I've covered this 100x before but it's crunch time;

What will come next for my lovely sable?

 

Here are some premises:

- This car is my daily
- I love the 1zz. It's a great little block and I love how it behaves in the b-roads. Really can't fault it. Unfortunately wringing its little neck is not what it has been built for.
- I have access to a very nice turbo mr2 that now drives like a peach. Everything about the drive is highly addictive. I've never used it as a daily driver though. The stg2 clutch can get very wearing after miles of traffic.
- I have driven two 2zz conversions; miles apart from each other but also thousands of pounds apart as well. Bog standard and stg2 cammed with perfect exhaust. The former left me a bit cold. A 1zz with a higher rpm limit. The latter had me grinning ear to ear for a long time.
- I'm not bl00dy Rockefeller so no v6 or k20 for me. Not really my thing anyway.
- As I said...I'm not Rockefeller.

Here are my thoughts so far:

1) Rebuild 1zz
I would do this either myself with the help of our lovely Carolyn, if she were willing. So I'd learn a hell of a lot and know what was in it. Full confidence. Full rebuild with new ancilliaries. Solid for at least another 85k miles of punishment. I'd add a good manifold, new cat and likely stg1 cams and lightened flywheel. Alternatively, I could rebuild and get the front of the car resprayed, which is desperately needed, and a general refurb of some of the underbody items (fresh bushes etc).

2) Swap to 2zz
2a) Option 1
Buy a "kit" for £2500 and fit myself. Pay extra for LSD and gear swaps. Put in stg1 cams with money saved

 2b) Option 2
Get Rogue to install it. Likely the taller end of £4k but having seen their work, I know it would be a good solid conversion. Drive in, drive out.

 2c) Option 3
Wait for a 2zz car, built to my needs and known good runner, comes up for sale. Buy and swap over after some basic servicing and checks.


3) Turbo

I've historically discounted this due to the "fun" we had with Helen's turbo, which was enough to put anybody off a turbo. But now that it's sorted and we know a standalone is key to 100% satisfaction, it has made it very interesting again. Dan's build helped as well!

The benefits are that it's 100% detachable so can recover the costs, and the low-down torque is there which is what I miss as a daily

BUT...I'd need to rebuild my engine. So that's a big overhead. So this build would stand me at about 6k. Unless someone can tell me different. I just don't see this being feasible within my budget.

4) Supercharge
Se7en makes a very jazzy rotrex kit for the 1zz but comes in at 4700. So, also 6k by the time I'm done with all parts required (clutch, exhaust, etc)

5) V6 or K20
Too expensive and just not my thing

6) 1,8t VAG engine
This has been looming but no sign of it yet from Steve Norris at Megillian. This is one other big swap that really has got my interest. Who knows what the costs will be though. Should I hold out? It's a huge change but I can totally see this engine being an amazing match for the 2.

 

 

 

[Topdownman]

Sounds like you need to man-up and make a decision!

Just go the cheapest 2zz route, if you dont like it you can change or upgrade it later. Maybe you could rebuild the donor engine yourself ovrr the winter and then you could buy any cheap donor knowing you were going to rebuild anyway.

Given that you have access to a turbo and arent desparately wanting one yourself, that says something doesnt it?

[tricky1138]

Sounds like you need to man-up and make a decision!

I like that quote!!!! haha

But i agree with Simon. The best bet is to rebuild an engine and put it in. Whether that is another 1zz with a turbo attached or a 2zz thats up to you!

But then you get the option to build an engine while still driving yours, and in theory would be a quicker swap.

I know you had bad luck with the Celica you picked up last time, but there will be a decent one out there, that you could even drive for a bit before dismantling, you just have to find it!

I'm happy with my 1zz, but doesn't get driven enough now!  But I'd still go V6 if I ever did change!

[jvanzyl]

I think that Simon has a good point... you have access to Jack yet are still wondering if you'd like it for yourself... and seem to enjoy the act of "wringing" to get more power out of your current car.

Go for 2ZZ with lightened flywheel, Cams, and a standalone ECU... I think it suits your character.

Buy the "Kit" and take it to Carolyns for appropriate oversight whilst you fit the cams and do a light rebuild (if needed) but general inspection would be good.

Fit and enjoy with you existing 2001 ECU and then take it to RRR for standalone and mapping at a later date when you have the better exhaust etc.

[Bossworld]

1 or 3 for me personally, and I guess 3 would be if you've not got explicit permission to use Helen's

You've got more NSL roads near you than I have, but the 2ZZ argument for me would come down to whether you can get it up to that rev range on a regular basis to enjoy it. 

[Nvy]

I can reply whats the best thing to do for me:

First id collect parts and stick a Chinese knockoff turbo for a start. You can pick decent turbo for little money so the biggest investment will be the ECU that you can use later too. So this gives you the same as Helen's car for not so much cash. I can do this for as little as 2.2k around here with the mapping. Im willing to help with finding turbo and balancing it so it will be way cheaper than UK prices.

Wanting more power i see two valuable choices:
1. Replace the 1zz with 2zz and RRR to do their magic again so you can have 300 horses and not blow your engine.
1.1. Build 2zz, swap the 3rd and 4th gear for something stronger and bump the power to almost 400 horses. At that level you should be totally satisfied with the car.
2. Build 1zz with forged parts and have again 300 horses.

That way the monies are stretch into time and it will not be all at once. And also in the process you would be able to sell couple of parts that wont be needed anymore.

P.S. I love the sound of 2zz when its in lift so prolly 2zz with divided T4 manifold and ERF 7163 turbo.
P.S.2 It can be Saab turbo but not Chinese knockoff but most likely it will need a rebuild. Chinese one will need balancing so both will come to almost the same money.

[Essex2Visuvesi]

One thing you missed was option 4.5
Rebuild engine and Supercharge using Carolyn's build for inspiration

[shnazzle]

One thing you missed was option 4.5
Rebuild engine and Supercharge using Carolyn's build for inspiration

I have considered this. It's a great kit and it just needs mapping and some bits and bobs.
Standalone, cooling.. That's all I can remember.

As for a fresh turbo build; it's just not feasible financially for me. 2.2k is a pipe dream for a good build.
I'm sure Helen will let me drive hers when I need that buzz.

I like the idea of the 2zz kit and then getting it checked over (and fitted?) at Carolyn's? Again... Depending on whether she will, wants to, can, etc.

[mikek]

My engine with cams was £1700 from Sam Nadheem. Total cost of swap was £3000 through Sam but with rogue doing the work including the gearbox work and airbox. Exhaust £700 including manifold and wrap. Lightened flywheel was £225.

You seemed to love driving my car.....

Get a 2zz. Rebuild it. Install it with all the nice bits. You have the skills and enough people to help. You have something to base your build on that you know works. It won't be that expensive and you can drive your car untill the engine is ready. It's bulletproof once it's done. And before Scotte  chimes in about torque you can always steal/borrow Helens.

Upgrades at a later date...turbo, supercharge or the new se7en itb's

Simples!

[shnazzle]

My engine with cams was £1700 from Sam Nadheem. Total cost of swap was £3000 through Sam but with rogue doing the work including the gearbox work and airbox. Exhaust £700 including manifold and wrap. Lightened flywheel was £225.

You seemed to love driving my car.....

Get a 2zz. Rebuild it. Install it with all the nice bits. You have the skills and enough people to help. You have something to base your build on that you know works. It won't be that expensive and you can drive your car untill the engine is ready. It's bulletproof once it's done. And before Scotte  chimes in about torque you can always steal/borrow Helens.

Upgrades at a later date...turbo, supercharge or the new se7en itb's

Simples!

Hmm.. That's not as bad as I thought.
I could always add the cams and ecu later, as mentioned above.

Does Sam/Rogue do anything to the engine before fitting? Or just shove it in?

[shnazzle]

After a long talk with my very sensible (and still petrol-head-influenced) wife, I've made a decision I'm very happy with.

My goal would be something like Mike's build. You're right, I absolutely loved driving yours. It's everything I'd want mine to be.
However... I just can't justify the costs.
Also, I can't justify spending all that on an engine I didn't know into a car that really could do with a bit of a spruce-up of some of the suspension and other aged components.
"wouldn't decorate a room with a  leaky roof",as Helen said.
There's a hell of a lot of sense in that.

So.
1zz rebuild.
All fresh parts.
Stg1 cams.
Good manifold.
Fix up my TTE exhaust (straighten up pipes for once and maybe repack)
Sort out rusty and aged components (replace or refurb)
If I have cash left, front respray.

BOOM!

[dan944]

A feel a little let down with your sensibility.

I wanted to hear 2zz or at the very least turbo.

At least you'll get to learn how to rebuild an engine though I will be doing the same shortly. Pick up my freebie oil burner on Thursday.

[shnazzle]

Haha sorry to disappoint.

Fact of the matter is, the amount of times I'd use/enjoy the power gain of the 2zz over that of a fresh cammed 1zz versus the cash required just doesn't add up.
Add in things like needing the respray the front of the car and fix up aged bits... Makes too much sense.

Also. I have new wheels, a freshly upholstered interior, etc. Bit of a shame for some of it to be rusting to bits and being a collection of stone chips.

When I need the buzz, I've got 235hp at my disposal with Helen's permission.
Admittedly, as it's my daily, that buzz can easily be satisfied by an occasional blast in hers.

I'm often more jealous of the great state of her car underneath than the turbo.

Besides; 1zz, stg1 cams, good manifold, sports cat.. I'm still looking at a healthy power increase. Maybe 165 haha

[frogger]

Tried to find answer but think I'd be searching for ages ....

What is wrong with your current 1ZZ?  / Why does it need the rebuild?

[StuC]

@HereComesTheWife Well done Helen for donning the sensible pants and setting him straight! I like the no nonsense decorating analogy.

@shnazzle I know how you feel with respect to using a daily. A stock 2 on the right road with good conditions is still a pretty quick car. Certainly a lot of fun. I get lots of driving Banana. Sometimes spirited, sometimes not. I have thought about power upgrades myself over the years. Came to the conclusion, she does just what she needs to. No need to worry about lift bolts, intake temperatures, remapping or wastegates. Simples.

[shnazzle]

Tried to find answer but think I'd be searching for ages ....

What is wrong with your current 1ZZ?  / Why does it need the rebuild?

It's done 85k and it's sounding a bit worse for wear. It does get its fair share of abuse. It had a funny do not long ago where it was running like a dog, coolant was disappearing (and reappearing) and generally sounding like it was going to die.
Then it decided to work again... No clue what happened. In any case it's time for a refresh

@HereComesTheWife Well done Helen for donning the sensible pants and setting him straight! I like the no nonsense decorating analogy.

@shnazzle I know how you feel with respect to using a daily. A stock 2 on the right road with good conditions is still a pretty quick car. Certainly a lot of fun. I get lots of driving Banana. Sometimes spirited, sometimes not. I have thought about power upgrades myself over the years. Came to the conclusion, she does just what she needs to. No need to worry about lift bolts, intake temperatures, remapping or wastegates. Simples.

This is it! No hassle. Just a reliable, sound 1zz, with a few tweaks to my liking.
If I spend 2k on the build, I'll be a happy camper.

Hell the stg1 cams could even wait, in favour of a respray or new parts (suspension, universals joints, brake pipes, etc etc.) , as they're easy enough to drop in later.

[Call the midlife!]

Haha sorry to disappoint.

Fact of the matter is, the amount of times I'd use/enjoy the power gain of the 2zz over that of a fresh cammed 1zz versus the cash required just doesn't add up.
Add in things like needing the respray the front of the car and fix up aged bits... Makes too much sense.

Also. I have new wheels, a freshly upholstered interior, etc. Bit of a shame for some of it to be rusting to bits and being a collection of stone chips.

When I need the buzz, I've got 235hp at my disposal with Helen's permission.
Admittedly, as it's my daily, that buzz can easily be satisfied by an occasional blast in hers.

I'm often more jealous of the great state of her car underneath than the turbo.

Besides; 1zz, stg1 cams, good manifold, sports cat.. I'm still looking at a healthy power increase. Maybe 165 haha

Out of interest what difference do the stage 1 cams on a standard ECU make?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Topdownman]

So, that was quite painless wasnt it?

Now, time to talk timescales........

[shnazzle]

Out of interest what difference do the stage 1 cams on a standard ECU make?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, watch this space, see my question below
The stg1 cars I know so far have a flatter and higher torque curve. More usable mid-range

So, that was quite painless wasnt it?

Now, time to talk timescales........

Timescales are about 6 months ish. Depending on logistics.


I do have question:
Can someone tell me the difference between stg1 and Stg2 cams?
Other than that Stg2 requires valves a springs.

[Call the midlife!]

Out of interest what difference do the stage 1 cams on a standard ECU make?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, watch this space, see my question below
The stg1 cars I know so far have a flatter and higher torque curve. More usable mid-range

So, that was quite painless wasnt it?

Now, time to talk timescales........

Timescales are about 6 months ish. Depending on logistics.


I do have question:
Can someone tell me the difference between stg1 and Stg2 cams?
Other than that Stg2 requires valves a springs.

Watching, waiting, antici-pating...
Bearing in mind the upcoming winter rebuild.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HereComesTheWife]

So, that was quite painless wasnt it?

Now, time to talk timescales........

Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Call the midlife!]

So, that was quite painless wasnt it?

Now, time to talk timescales........

Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Nice to see you're prepared to make sacrifices for his happiness Helen...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Topdownman]

So, that was quite painless wasnt it?

Now, time to talk timescales........

Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Lol!

[StuC]

So, that was quite painless wasnt it?

Now, time to talk timescales........

Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with

Lovin' your work.
Sometimes it's a carrot and sometimes you need the stick! :bowdown:

[HereComesTheWife]

I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk