Sable daily workhorse

Started by B_Tank88, August 6, 2019, 09:48

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househead

Glad to hear you're back on the road, and without the pesky pre-cats!

Only time will tell how bad it is, but one thing is for sure ... it's loads better now that it would have been!
2004 Sable Red Edition, TTE Twin Exhaust, Toyosports Manifold

Chilli Girl

Quote from: B_Tank88 on August 20, 2019, 13:40So the manifold was swapped over this morning, obviously took longer than expected due to rusty and seized bolts but not too bad.

The pre cats were actually fine on the bottom side, and the debris from the top was nowhere to be seen. This means the engine has already eaten it, no idea how long ago.

So new manifold, new oil and filter, and I'll be keeping a close eye on the oil consumption. It's all a question now of how much damage has been done and if the oil consumption is tolerable or not.

Redeeming factors are the engine sounds ok, it revs well and pulls well. No smoke that I have seen.

I read quite a few reports when researching of people mentioning the pre-cat breakup/oil consumption issue was fixed on post facelift. This mainly why I wasn't as worried as I should have been about this problem.

This definitely isn't the case!

No sadly it isn't the case, there have been facelifts that have had problems too.
Ex owners of Chilli red facelift 52 reg called Chilli, silver 55 reg called Foxy and blue pfl W reg MR-S called Sapphire. Now 2 less!

BahnStormer

People still debate this a lot... two causes for the oil consumption: pre-cat problems, which should be fine on facelift onwards and oil control rings (3 small drains vs 5 larger one, I think!), but this was only sorted out late 2005, 2006 to be safe.

Worth checking for an actual leak if it is really drinking oil and not smoking?

One observation - if you're going to daily this in winter, I'd recommend a set of winter wheels (stock FL wheels for <£150 and a set of Conti TS860S winter tyres are absolutely brilliant)... obviously that depends of what summer tyres you've settled on, but most of the best driving tyres are track-focused and get very glassy at <10C.
Black 2006: AC & heated leather: 4x Megillian braces, Koni/Tein custom suspension, MTEC+YS+braided brakes, Toyosports manifold, TTE exhaust, Conti PremiumContact2(summer)/ Conti TS860S(winter) / YokoAD08RS (track/summer), Pioneer MVH-390BT + TS-E171ci, FBSW, Robbins mohair hood.

Carolyn

Bahnstormer is partially correct. (Sorry Chris!)

Most oil consumption has little to do with pre-cat problems. It's simply gummed up oil-control rings.

All pistons (until the very last few cars made) had inadequate oil-control holes. They were too small and only four in number. The first Toyota change  was to move the holes down a little to make an overlap on the bottom groove.  They kept the hole size and number, so it had little effect.  The much later, and very rare, pistons had much bigger holes, twice the number of holes and a bigger overlap.

As you have spotted some breakdown of the pre-cat, it is possible that there's some bore damage, but looking at the history of engines damaged that way, they tend to properly self destruct in short order,(as Scotte pointed out) which yours hasn't done.  I looked at your vid of the damaged pre-cat and I do think you've caught it well in time. :)

Unfortunately, the only cure for stuck oil rings is to take the engine apart and un-stick them.  No amount of treatments has ever been shown to work.

As Scotte also pointed out, these engines can run for years while consuming oil, with no smoke and they'll pass MOT emissions tests.

Even Toyota say that 1 Ltr per 1,000 miles is acceptable. It's only to the point when it's using it so fast you might get caught out that you really have to do something about it.

It is important to check the oil level regularly (as you've rapidly learned) and not to run it more than 1/2 ltr low (halfway down the dipstick), as it's possible (during very spirited driving) to expose the oil pick-up to air and spin a bearing.

After a few weeks, you'll know exactly how much you're using. You can then keep track by using one of your trip meters to tell you when to top up. 

Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

jonbill

What your piston prob looks like:You cannot view this attachment.


What you'd want to do to your pistons You cannot view this attachment.

B_Tank88

They look lovely. I'm sure mine don't look like that.

Although another 200 miles and nothings blown up yet. Oil is holding so far.

Could be placebo, but engine sounds better. Maybe 2 oil and filter changes in very short time have helped.

Also my side vents haven't been fitted properly, by removing them I damaged the clips a little so I bought new ones from ebay, will be replacing these. Bad fitment of the side vents was causing an annoying rattle.

The car's niggles are slowly but surely getting fixed!
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

househead

Which replacement manifold did you go for out of interest?

Mine definitely sounded better with the toyosports cheapo manifold than the OEM with precats. Little bit more pull from a standing start too. (Again, might be placebo but sometimes ignorance is bliss!)
2004 Sable Red Edition, TTE Twin Exhaust, Toyosports Manifold

Carolyn

Quote from: B_Tank88 on August 22, 2019, 09:08They look lovely. I'm sure mine don't look like that.

Although another 200 miles and nothings blown up yet. Oil is holding so far.

Could be placebo, but engine sounds better. Maybe 2 oil and filter changes in very short time have helped.

Also my side vents haven't been fitted properly, by removing them I damaged the clips a little so I bought new ones from ebay, will be replacing these. Bad fitment of the side vents was causing an annoying rattle.

The car's niggles are slowly but surely getting fixed!

You're making great progress.  I don't think it's 'placebo'.  A couple of oil changes will help quiet the valves somewhat (which is where most of the noise comes from).
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

B_Tank88

Quote from: househead on August 22, 2019, 09:14Which replacement manifold did you go for out of interest?

Mine definitely sounded better with the toyosports cheapo manifold than the OEM with precats. Little bit more pull from a standing start too. (Again, might be placebo but sometimes ignorance is bliss!)

I didn't go for nothing special, I just wanted the pre-cats out for minimum cost so I went for the cheapest one I could find new on ebay. Rogue told me they have fitted these before and they have been fine, it cost 120 pounds delivered:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAINLESS-SPORT-EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-FOR-TOYOTA-MR2-MR-2-MRS-W30-ROADSTER-1-8-00-07/153568997571?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

They didn't complain about any fitment issues so I guess it was ok. It looks nice though!

By the way when I mentioned the engine noise earlier, I was talking more about the valvetrain like Carolyn mentioned, it generally sounds a little smoother and quieter. The exhaust note sounds exactly the same with the new manifold I'd have never thought it was replaced in the first place.
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

househead

Ah yes, different kind of "sounds better"!
2004 Sable Red Edition, TTE Twin Exhaust, Toyosports Manifold

Carolyn

Quote from: B_Tank88 on August 22, 2019, 09:34
Quote from: househead on August 22, 2019, 09:14Which replacement manifold did you go for out of interest?

Mine definitely sounded better with the toyosports cheapo manifold than the OEM with precats. Little bit more pull from a standing start too. (Again, might be placebo but sometimes ignorance is bliss!)

I didn't go for nothing special, I just wanted the pre-cats out for minimum cost so I went for the cheapest one I could find new on ebay. Rogue told me they have fitted these before and they have been fine, it cost 120 pounds delivered:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAINLESS-SPORT-EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-FOR-TOYOTA-MR2-MR-2-MRS-W30-ROADSTER-1-8-00-07/153568997571?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

They didn't complain about any fitment issues so I guess it was ok. It looks nice though!

By the way when I mentioned the engine noise earlier, I was talking more about the valvetrain like Carolyn mentioned, it generally sounds a little smoother and quieter. The exhaust note sounds exactly the same with the new manifold I'd have never thought it was replaced in the first place.

I notice you're in Leicester.  It wouldn't be too far for you to bring the car to me (Northants) and we can  do your valves.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

B_Tank88

Quote from: Carolyn on August 22, 2019, 09:43
Quote from: B_Tank88 on August 22, 2019, 09:34
Quote from: househead on August 22, 2019, 09:14Which replacement manifold did you go for out of interest?

Mine definitely sounded better with the toyosports cheapo manifold than the OEM with precats. Little bit more pull from a standing start too. (Again, might be placebo but sometimes ignorance is bliss!)

I didn't go for nothing special, I just wanted the pre-cats out for minimum cost so I went for the cheapest one I could find new on ebay. Rogue told me they have fitted these before and they have been fine, it cost 120 pounds delivered:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAINLESS-SPORT-EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-FOR-TOYOTA-MR2-MR-2-MRS-W30-ROADSTER-1-8-00-07/153568997571?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

They didn't complain about any fitment issues so I guess it was ok. It looks nice though!

By the way when I mentioned the engine noise earlier, I was talking more about the valvetrain like Carolyn mentioned, it generally sounds a little smoother and quieter. The exhaust note sounds exactly the same with the new manifold I'd have never thought it was replaced in the first place.

I notice you're in Leicester.  It wouldn't be too far for you to bring the car to me (Northants) and we can  do your valves.

Thank you for the offer!

I will keep this in mind and will be in touch if the opportunity arises.
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

B_Tank88

So, I witnessed some smoke.

I haven't noticed any smoke at all from the exhaust since I got the car, until this one time on Friday, driving back from work last week.

It is quite odd, it happened, when I was engine braking for quite a long time as car in front was slowing down to turn left from a 50mph road. I was in 2nd gear, revs probably got down to about 1.5k rpm. As soon as he was turned off, I put my foot down to accelerate hard, and got up to about 4-5k rpm before letting off. There was a lot of smoke behind me, with a tinge of blue. It was relatively thick, and got me quite worried and conscious.

I tried reproducing this again in my drives after, but no matter what I do I can't see smoke coming out the exhaust again. I've tried hard accelerations in all gears, from low down the rev range, after engine braking and overunning for a while, and I haven't noticed any smoke at all.

What could this be about? If the engine is smoking won't it happen consistently?
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

Carolyn

You need to replace the Positive Crank-case Ventilation valve. (PCV).

It's on the left of the cam cover, nearest to you as you look at the engine.

Don't think, because it appears to be moving that it is good.  It has an internal spring that loses tension over time and the valve is kaput.

Paul at TCB should be able to provide.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

B_Tank88

Quote from: Carolyn on August 28, 2019, 10:48You need to replace the Positive Crank-case Ventilation valve. (PCV).

It's on the left of the cam cover, nearest to you as you look at the engine.

Don't think, because it appears to be moving that it is good.  It has an internal spring that loses tension over time and the valve is kaput.

Paul at TCB should be able to provide.

Thank you so much for the pointer, I've ordered the part.

Cheap enough part and fitment looks very easy, I'll do it as soon as it arrives. Doing some research on the symptoms, I think I get a slight engine surge too when coming off the throttle.. I assumed it was normal. I wonder if my oil consumption may be somewhat related to this too.
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

Carolyn

Quote from: B_Tank88 on August 28, 2019, 11:37
Quote from: Carolyn on August 28, 2019, 10:48You need to replace the Positive Crank-case Ventilation valve. (PCV).

It's on the left of the cam cover, nearest to you as you look at the engine.

Don't think, because it appears to be moving that it is good.  It has an internal spring that loses tension over time and the valve is kaput.

Paul at TCB should be able to provide.

Thank you so much for the pointer, I've ordered the part.

Cheap enough part and fitment looks very easy, I'll do it as soon as it arrives. Doing some research on the symptoms, I think I get a slight engine surge too when coming off the throttle.. I assumed it was normal. I wonder if my oil consumption may be somewhat related to this too.

Could be.  Mine smoked when picking up the throttle after over-run (downhill) when I first got it.  PCV cured it.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

B_Tank88

Right, replaced the PCV and sorted the side grilles out.

There is nothing left to do now as far as I'm aware so time to get it churning some miles out.
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

B_Tank88

So.. nothing really to report.

It's been driving normally, it's been around 700 miles since the manifold swap and oil change, and the oil level (although still difficult to read, even after looking at the guide on here) seems to be holding well enough. I can't tell though if it's still full, or around half way on the dipstick. The oil seems to pool near the bottom of the dipstick when you hold it up so I can't really tell, but at least it's not bone dry.

No smoke or anything that I've noticed. Fingers crossed!

I'll take this opportunity to ask if there are any other small preventative maintenance (like the PCV) I should maybe do to the car?
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

B_Tank88

So, a little update as I've done some decent miles since last update.

I'm pleased to report.. nothing!

I have confirmed oil consumption to be around 1L/1500miles. 1500 miles ago I had the dipstick reading full (thank you Trip B) It is now near the bottom, so I read that as around 1 litre, correct? This is manageable for me, the oil is cheap for this car, and 1500 mile top up intervals are certainly not too annoying.

The car is driving well, all electrics are good, heaters good, no odd sounds, I hope it carries on like this for some time and I will be happy as I am now with it. No leaks noticed in the recent deluge thanks to new roof from Jack Smith, all is good.

Few observations:
- Engine may be a little tappety at times (I still remember your offer @Carolyn ). Especially after resting at idle after a long drive. Will monitor this and should consider some maintenance soon.
- The rear windscreen heater/demist is very poor. Takes ages. Wing mirrors don't seem to heat at all, are they supposed to? I need to now wipe the condensation off the windows manually before getting in or I can't see for 20 mins.
- The rattles and creaks! There is a creak coming from between the roof and one of the arches, I need to silicone spray that and will be a start to eliminating these.
- The steering is so good.
- Heater is very good.
- Lift off oversteer keeps you on your toes.
- Extremely easy to handle at the limit.
- Starter motor makes some weird grinding noises sometimes. At least I think it's starter motor, no the chain hopefully.
- There is some oil residue on the right side of the engine block below the valve cover, need to investigate this some time.

- I added my experience to the pre cat failure sticky thread.
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

Joesson



@B_Tank88 said:
"There is some oil residue on the right side of the engine block below the valve cover, need to investigate this some time."

That is likely to be a faulty "O" ring seal on the chain tensioner. I believe there is a " how to" on here, a straight forward job that gives immediate results on the clean engine front.

1979scotte

No to heated mirrors but you can fit your own.
Lift off oversteer no sorry not with correct tyres with correct pressures and good alignment.
No I don't drive like your granny.
Heater is amazing.
I actually think the steering could be better hence why some people do the PAS delete.

Glad you are enjoying.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Carolyn

Quote from: Joesson on October  4, 2019, 16:53@B_Tank88 said:
"There is some oil residue on the right side of the engine block below the valve cover, need to investigate this some time."

That is likely to be a faulty "O" ring seal on the chain tensioner. I believe there is a " how to" on here, a straight forward job that gives immediate results on the clean engine front.


PM me with your address and I'll send an O ring that actually works.  (As opposed to the OEM one, which doesn't).  N/C.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

B_Tank88

Quote from: Carolyn on October  4, 2019, 18:08
Quote from: Joesson on October  4, 2019, 16:53@B_Tank88 said:
"There is some oil residue on the right side of the engine block below the valve cover, need to investigate this some time."

That is likely to be a faulty "O" ring seal on the chain tensioner. I believe there is a " how to" on here, a straight forward job that gives immediate results on the clean engine front.


PM me with your address and I'll send an O ring that actually works.  (As opposed to the OEM one, which doesn't).  N/C.

PM sent!
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

B_Tank88

Just a few updates.

I'v very pleased there are no leaks in the car, haven't noticed any damnpess in the car at all even though we have recently had very bad rainfall.

The handbrake had gone useless again after a few months of usage since my first re-adjustment. I think I may have been too reserved the first time around. I did the adjustment again, this time took a slightly different angle. I tightened it so much that the handbrake would drag even when the handbrake was not applied. Then I loosened it bit by bit until the handbrake would not drag any more. This mean't I ended up tightening it a lot more than the first time around and only a few clicks are required for it to hold. God it's stiff to apply though. But it holds better now. On 3-4 clicks it will hold on a slope, on 5 clicks it will hold on a steeper slope. I can't get it on 6 clicks if I tried, so the handbrake is still no good for a really steep slope but it will do for my usage.

Got around to fitting the new O-ring, was easy enough (thanks Carolyn). Tried to clean the residue around the area hopefully it stays more clean now.

Oil consumption seems stable enough, maybe slightly higher maybe it's just my bad measuring.

I feel fuel consumption is a little worse, can't get more than 350 miles a tank now. But I wonder if that's me being scared of the yellow light.

Had 4 wheel alignment done. When I first bought the car, on lift off throttle there was a slight shimmy and this has completely gone now, feels more planted on throttle changes.

Now, the ride has been very stiff on this car since I got it, and I guess it's meant to be like that. However, I have noticed that on some smooth roads that have some slight bumpy intersections, I find that the car tends to bounce a little bit. Maybe it's just me but I wonder if this is a sign of the suspension tiring a little bit (shocks?). Rebound is fine and the car rides speed bumps well, smoothly with no noises, but this is more on smooth roads travelling fast, that have small bumpy imperfections. The car tends to bounce and unsettle a bit more than I feel it should.

Not sure if this is normal or not.
2004 MR2 Roadster Sable/Red<br />2005 Corsa 1.2<br />2003 E46 M3 Coupe SMG

BahnStormer

#49
Quote from: Carolyn on August 21, 2019, 08:46Bahnstormer is partially correct. (Sorry Chris!)

Only too happy to be corrected by people far more knowledgeable than myself!!

Quote from: 1979scotte on August  6, 2019, 18:18You don't want or need a hard top they are no use and get in the way of fun.

And this is where the opinions diverge... and it is just a matter of opinion.... but I'd second Scotte's view on the hardtop - the only problem with the softop is that the rear diagonal visibility: it is a LOT better on the hardtop, but it's only really a hassle on those type of merging junctions AND that assuming that you've got the roof up... now that you've got the mohair hood you can just drop the roof for the junction and then put it back up if it's raining :) a hardtop is a huge sacrifice of fun just for one or two junctions - heaters are amazing - I've been out, roof down three days in the last week and seldom have the heaters above three quarters.... decent beanie recommended though :)



Quote from: 1979scotte on August  6, 2019, 18:18Can't belive you've still got the M3 big lardy 5 seater that it is

I dunno - I bet it makes a great dump-run car...

In terms of preventative maintenance - I saw some mention of the subframe being having minimal corrosion - so best get it treated (scrubbed and sealed) now...
Black 2006: AC & heated leather: 4x Megillian braces, Koni/Tein custom suspension, MTEC+YS+braided brakes, Toyosports manifold, TTE exhaust, Conti PremiumContact2(summer)/ Conti TS860S(winter) / YokoAD08RS (track/summer), Pioneer MVH-390BT + TS-E171ci, FBSW, Robbins mohair hood.