Another 1ZZ Turbo

Started by mr9, April 18, 2020, 22:28

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1979scotte

Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.

I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.

RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name

Modified cars are always going to struggle.
Hopefully they'll sort it via remote.
Tbh I personally don't thick a turbo 2 is something to daily drive around town.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

mr9

Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 17:37
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.

I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.

RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name

Modified cars are always going to struggle.
Hopefully they'll sort it via remote.
Tbh I personally don't thick a turbo 2 is something to daily drive around town.


Agreed, long term I'll probably get an old  Prius, but ended up moving here before finishing the project.

Unless anyone reading wants to buy it I think my best bet is to run it for 6 months or so to iron out the issues prove its reliable, enjoy a road trip or two and maybe sell it after

Joesson

Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 15:44Another update. Got done refurbed rest calipets off of Simon. Fitted by a garage near my dad's, failed the MOT on CO emissions (way over the limit) so adding a turbo blanket and heat wrap up help the catalyst light off and RRR will remotely alter the map.



But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?

mr9

Picked up the car and drove it up and down the M1 this weekend.

Power is great. Noise is a lot lose than I thought - blow off valve is very audible.

Charge cooler pump wasn't wired up and so some miscommunication with rrr there, been driving it carefully as my childishness will let me and getting that and a few bits tidied up now at a garage.

Aiming to drive to Zagreb this coming weekend now but need to confirm with r different countries if I'm allowed in the country. Would be much easier if I had an EU passport.

shnazzle

Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.

I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.

RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe
...neutiquam erro.

mr9

Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 15:52
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.

I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.

RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe

Yes I think it mainly comes down to my wideband O2 in the exhaust isn't in the position it's best calibrated by.

shnazzle

Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 17:49
Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 15:52
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.

I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.

RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe

Yes I think it mainly comes down to my wideband O2 in the exhaust isn't in the position it's best calibrated by.
Let me guess... Is it after the cat? :)
...neutiquam erro.

1979scotte

Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 17:50
Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 17:49
Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 15:52
Quote from: mr9 on April 17, 2021, 16:32
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 17, 2021, 16:00Rag the bumbum off it for 20 mins then straight into the mot bay for emissions test.

I'm not there so getting my dad t ohelp. the garage and my dady both gave it a go and it came downd slightly - but the lambda reading was slight ff and now only just in the limit. A bit of a tune plus ragging it plus some heatwrapping should help. I'd rather have the emissions within limits without having to rag it anyway as I'll regularly be driving it from cold in boring stop start city traffic now.

RRR don't have an emissions probe, so aren't able to check it during the tune and I think my o2 sensor bung is poorly located for accuracy. I know the probes are expensive but seems like it would be a worthwhile investment for the "Road" part of the name
I'm a bit surprised by that. I guess they just rely on people having a wideband. But they can break. So you're right, I 100% expected them to have one. Not a sniffer but just a WB probe

Yes I think it mainly comes down to my wideband O2 in the exhaust isn't in the position it's best calibrated by.
Let me guess... Is it after the cat? :)

NO surely not
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Petrus

Quote from: shnazzle on May 11, 2021, 17:50Let me guess... Is it after the cat? :)

Nearly spat my coffee on the screen.
Thanks ;-)

thetyrant

After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

1979scotte

Quote from: thetyrant on May 11, 2021, 20:19After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D

You will have to tell me how that works because the cat is interfering with the readings.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

shnazzle

Quote from: 1979scotte on May 11, 2021, 21:10
Quote from: thetyrant on May 11, 2021, 20:19After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D

You will have to tell me how that works because the cat is interfering with the readings.
There's truth there. It's just.. Not optimal.


Mostly cats age and aren't uniform in their output throughout their temperature range. It's one of those "better than nothing" scenarios.

Curious though; where is the wideband?
...neutiquam erro.

mr9

Wideband is definately not that bad!

It's on a bend right after the turbo, generally you want a bit of straight before them to get more uniform flow.

Sensor bung shown here

https://imgur.com/a/DisPrWp

thetyrant

Quote from: 1979scotte on May 11, 2021, 21:10
Quote from: thetyrant on May 11, 2021, 20:19After the cat is fine as long as tuned accordingly, ive ran both ways on previous cars :D

You will have to tell me how that works because the cat is interfering with the readings.

Its not ideal of course and wouldnt really want to run post cat WB for a closed loop fueling setup but for mapping its fine as long as your aware of the differences, depending on the setup it doesnt usually make a huge difference and ive watched a car with both pre-cat WB and post cat tailpipe mounted WB during mapping and not hugely different as long as your not mapping right to the ragged edge, slightly leaner readings on the post cat WB that you need to be aware of.  There is probably more difference between different WB setups than you get with a pre/post cast mounting in my experience.

If using for closed loop fuel controlwhere ECU is controlling the fueling on the fly from WB feedback then your much better with pre cat WB as otherwise you need to put funny numbers in the ecu to get the actual fueling you want at engine, again all depends how close to limits you want to go, if really pushing things you need a WB sensor on each runner of the manifold but thats getting a but away from basic MR2 turbos setups for most :)
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

thetyrant

Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 22:03Wideband is definately not that bad!

It's on a bend right after the turbo, generally you want a bit of straight before them to get more uniform flow.

Sensor bung shown here

https://imgur.com/a/DisPrWp

That will be fine for readings but may suffer a shorter sensor life due to heat from turbo being so close, WB suppliers usually say something like 12-16" away from turbo to help reduce overheating sensors but ive ran them in the elbow right on turbo before and not had any real issues, just need to keep an eye on fueling it starts to look odd or run weird check or replace the WB sensor.
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

mr9

I made it! Mostly in one piece. There is a rear light lens somewhere on a French motorway, but the engine is mechanically fine. Will add more later

mr9

Quote from: thetyrant on May 12, 2021, 07:35
Quote from: mr9 on May 11, 2021, 22:03Wideband is definately not that bad!

It's on a bend right after the turbo, generally you want a bit of straight before them to get more uniform flow.

Sensor bung shown here

https://imgur.com/a/DisPrWp

That will be fine for readings but may suffer a shorter sensor life due to heat from turbo being so close, WB suppliers usually say something like 12-16" away from turbo to help reduce overheating sensors but ive ran them in the elbow right on turbo before and not had any real issues, just need to keep an eye on fueling it starts to look odd or run weird check or replace the WB sensor.

Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.

It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...

thetyrant

Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 09:28Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.

It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...


Good to hear you made it ok :)

Biggest problem with old fuel is the drop in octane rating causing engine to knock/pink under boost/load, only really an issue if your pushing the car hard on old fuel and it was mapped to the limit on new fresh fuel, good mappers generally dont map road cars to the ragged edge due to variable quality of pump fuel, i often map on 95 regular unleaded then once mapped run super unleaded to give a little extra knock protection, there are certainly some power gains from mapping to super unleaded but for road cars its negligible and if you cant get it for some reason at least you know its safe to run on regualr 95 fuel.

Do you know what fuel was used for the mapping and do you have same available over there ? also is there knock control mapped on your ecu ?

Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

mr9

Quote from: thetyrant on May 17, 2021, 09:48
Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 09:28Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.

It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...


Good to hear you made it ok :)

Biggest problem with old fuel is the drop in octane rating causing engine to knock/pink under boost/load, only really an issue if your pushing the car hard on old fuel and it was mapped to the limit on new fresh fuel, good mappers generally dont map road cars to the ragged edge due to variable quality of pump fuel, i often map on 95 regular unleaded then once mapped run super unleaded to give a little extra knock protection, there are certainly some power gains from mapping to super unleaded but for road cars its negligible and if you cant get it for some reason at least you know its safe to run on regualr 95 fuel.

Do you know what fuel was used for the mapping and do you have same available over there ? also is there knock control mapped on your ecu ?



I believe just the very old fuel I had in the tank.
Given I am going to look for bigger injectors and add boost control to raise the boost it might need remapping. I have been interested in doing some myself so maybe I can look at it in the future to adjust this map as I will always have the baseline to return to.

1979scotte

Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 21:21
Quote from: thetyrant on May 17, 2021, 09:48
Quote from: mr9 on May 17, 2021, 09:28Yes, it probably would have been with welding in a sensor bung on the exhaust a bit further up really.

It's also come to my attention how much fuel evaporates over time. After 5 weeks fuel is apparently 5% denser. So the tank of fuel I had in the MR2 for mapping will have been much denser, and for the same volumes of fuel injected it will now be running leaner...


Good to hear you made it ok :)

Biggest problem with old fuel is the drop in octane rating causing engine to knock/pink under boost/load, only really an issue if your pushing the car hard on old fuel and it was mapped to the limit on new fresh fuel, good mappers generally dont map road cars to the ragged edge due to variable quality of pump fuel, i often map on 95 regular unleaded then once mapped run super unleaded to give a little extra knock protection, there are certainly some power gains from mapping to super unleaded but for road cars its negligible and if you cant get it for some reason at least you know its safe to run on regualr 95 fuel.

Do you know what fuel was used for the mapping and do you have same available over there ? also is there knock control mapped on your ecu ?



I believe just the very old fuel I had in the tank.
Given I am going to look for bigger injectors and add boost control to raise the boost it might need remapping. I have been interested in doing some myself so maybe I can look at it in the future to adjust this map as I will always have the baseline to return to.

Might?
If you add bigger injectors it most definitely will. Although you can obviously learn to donthis yourself.
EBC is a must imho just running on wastegate pressure is so last century.
Hang on a minute you've got an ECUMASTER. They've got boost control built in. All you need is the MAC solenoid. Tell the ecu your boost target and afr target shouldn't it then be able to learn the rest? It has a mode for that I'm sure.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

mr9

Quote from: 1979scotte on May 17, 2021, 21:33Might?
If you add bigger injectors it most definitely will. Although you can obviously learn to donthis yourself.
EBC is a must imho just running on wastegate pressure is so last century.
Hang on a minute you've got an ECUMASTER. They've got boost control built in. All you need is the MAC solenoid. Tell the ecu your boost target and afr target shouldn't it then be able to learn the rest? It has a mode for that I'm sure.


*If I do put bigger injectors in it WILL need a remap.

I have a Mac solenoid. Left it with the car but hasn't been installed yet.

I am not sure - that sounds like it would be easy - just timing would need tuning for higher boost

thetyrant

#46
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 17, 2021, 21:33Hang on a minute you've got an ECUMASTER. They've got boost control built in. All you need is the MAC solenoid. Tell the ecu your boost target and afr target shouldn't it then be able to learn the rest? It has a mode for that I'm sure.


Unfortunately its not that easy, closed loop fueling control is mainly for cruise and low rev/load fine trims and while it can be used for higher revs/load/boost its for small corrections/trims due to air temp/pressures etc and not to actually build up the base fuel tables,  if you ever get to see a fuel table thats been built/modded by using closed loop control you will see what i mean as they are usually a mess and not smooth due to the way the logic works and while it might get there in the end it puts the engine in potential danger during the process, basically its not clever or fast enough compared to an experienced mapper.

Any changes to fuel system, boost level or even fuel used should be checked for AFR and timing/knock etc by someone who knows what they are doing, this can be done remotely using logging etc if no local tuners but caution needs to be taken to prevent damage and done in small stages imo.

Edit to add....this is a good transcript from a HP tuner tuning article on auto tune on the ECU master explains how and why auto tune is not for setting the map just for fine tuning - https://www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/267-auto-tune-ecu-master-emu-black/   you can sign up to view the videos and would be good if your thinking of tuning yourself, they do loads of tuning vids and pretty good explainations.
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

shnazzle

Had a nice response typed, the forum informed me that someone else had responded in the meantime (thetyrant), I read it and it was almost word for word what I wrote haha. So that forum feature IS useful!
...neutiquam erro.

1979scotte

He does already have his base tune.
If you tell the ecu you have 700cc injectors instead of 350 can't it work that out?

If not sounds like a waste of money having it tuned in the first place
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

thetyrant

Quote from: 1979scotte on May 18, 2021, 10:15He does already have his base tune.
If you tell the ecu you have 700cc injectors instead of 350 can't it work that out?

If not sounds like a waste of money having it tuned in the first place

No....well it will run but there is more to it that just flow rates of the injectors, thinks like voltage deadtimes and lag time etc etc all vary on injectors.

Basically if you change injectors you can get it to run by telling ecu there is a global change to injetors, but its very very unlikely it doesnt need the map tweaking to suit as well due to above.

Yes its a waste of time/money getting a car mapped if you have changes planned, however if you need it to run and drive in the meantime you have no option, or you just have to wait.

Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D