Dilemma with camshafts

[m1tch]

I have just fitted a set of OEM camshafts to the head, looks like most of the tolerances are slightly too tight now typically but at least that should be fairly easy to fix. Think I might just bin the Pipercams, no response so far from them and as a company they don't seem to care that the cams provided cannot be used.

Intake side clearances are between 0.00mm and 0.15mm
Exhaust side clearances are between 0.15mm and 0.30mm

Current buckets on the intake side are between 38 and 42 with the exhaust side having buckets between 36 and 40.

It would seem I need to run (if aiming for optimal between the OEM spec clearances) of a 24 to a 34 bucket on the intake and a 22 to 38 bucket on the exhaust side. I do have 4 of the buckets that were within minimum spec in terms of clearance but might aim for optimal clearance rather than them running too tight.

[Carolyn]

I have just fitted a set of OEM camshafts to the head, looks like most of the tolerances are slightly too tight now typically but at least that should be fairly easy to fix. Think I might just bin the Pipercams, no response so far from them and as a company they don't seem to care that the cams provided cannot be used.

Intake side clearances are between 0.00mm and 0.15mm
Exhaust side clearances are between 0.15mm and 0.30mm

Current buckets on the intake side are between 38 and 42 with the exhaust side having buckets between 36 and 40.

It would seem I need to run (if aiming for optimal between the OEM spec clearances) of a 24 to a 34 bucket on the intake and a 22 to 38 bucket on the exhaust side. I do have 4 of the buckets that were within minimum spec in terms of clearance but might aim for optimal clearance rather than them running too tight.

Let me know what buckets you need.  The bank does't have all sizes - but we can usually get pretty close.

I tend to go for .20 inlet and .30 exhaust, which is in the middle of the range specified. (As you already know.)

[m1tch]

I have just fitted a set of OEM camshafts to the head, looks like most of the tolerances are slightly too tight now typically but at least that should be fairly easy to fix. Think I might just bin the Pipercams, no response so far from them and as a company they don't seem to care that the cams provided cannot be used.

Intake side clearances are between 0.00mm and 0.15mm
Exhaust side clearances are between 0.15mm and 0.30mm

Current buckets on the intake side are between 38 and 42 with the exhaust side having buckets between 36 and 40.

It would seem I need to run (if aiming for optimal between the OEM spec clearances) of a 24 to a 34 bucket on the intake and a 22 to 38 bucket on the exhaust side. I do have 4 of the buckets that were within minimum spec in terms of clearance but might aim for optimal clearance rather than them running too tight.

Let me know what buckets you need.  The bank does't have all sizes - but we can usually get pretty close.

I tend to go for .20 inlet and .30 exhaust, which is in the middle of the range specified. (As you already know.)

Ok, here goes, I have checked everything but I can't seem to add a table onto this forum where it formats it correctly but here are the figures:

Intake Bucket thickness Calculated bucket number Current intake clearance Clearance needed Additional clearance Corrected bucket clearance Calculated bucket number 1 5.426 42 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.276 26 2 5.402 40 0.15 0.20 0.05 5.352 34 3 5.445 44 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.295 28 4 5.433 42 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.283 28 5 5.389 38 0.10 0.20 0.10 5.289 28 6 5.461 46 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.311 30 7 5.450 44 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.300 30 8 5.408 40 0.10 0.20 0.10 5.308 30   Exhaust Bucket thickness Calculated bucket number Current exhaust clearance Clearance needed Additional clearance Corrected bucket clearance Calculated bucket number 1 5.395 40 0.20 0.30 0.10 5.295 28 2 5.406 40 0.20 0.30 0.10 5.306 30 3 5.400 40 0.20 0.30 0.10 5.300 30 4 5.392 38 0.25 0.30 0.05 5.342 34 5 5.396 40 0.30 0.30 0.00 5.396 38 6 5.382 38 0.15 0.30 0.15 5.232 22 7 5.373 36 0.25 0.30 0.05 5.323 32 8 5.379 38 0.15 0.30 0.15 5.229 22

I have measured the buckets with a micrometer to get the actual sizes rather than the numbers, but also worked out the numbers they would be equivalent to. These are for the middle clearance eg 0.2mm for intake, 0.3mm for exhaust so buckets each side would work (its why I have also put the mm).

Below are the buckets needed to correct the clearances

Buckets needed
22
22
26
28
28
28
28
30
30
30
30
30
32
34
34
38

From this list I have only 5 of them, meaning I need these, quite a lot of 28s and 30s it seems! I am guessing the bucket numbers are lower than I would have thought probably due to the brand new valves (meaning the valve stem tip isn't worn at all).

22
22
26
28
28
28
28
30
30
30
30

I have over 40 usable buckets in my collection at the moment so happy to help anyone else out with the bucket bank.

Also worth noting that I have gone to 3 DP, I can see that E1 bucket is at 5.295 so technically a 28 bucket but could easily be rounded to 30 - also going with the middle clearance it means that I could go up or down 2 bucket sizes - ideally not tighter though.

Hopefully the bucket bank has at least a few in stock, luckily its in the lower range which I know aren't as desirable.

[Carolyn]

This is what we've got that's close...this would wipe out the bank for the smaller numbers.

1x26, 1x27, 1x28, 2x30, 3x31 and 2x32.

I have appealed more than once for new contributions to the bank, with no success.  Spit originally built up the bank and I have made additions by breaking poor engines and donating the buckets.

We need both smaller sizes and ones in the 45 plus range. 

All 'out's' from the bank need to be replaced with whatever you might have.

[m1tch]

This is what we've got that's close...this would wipe out the bank for the smaller numbers.

1x26, 1x27, 1x28, 2x30, 3x31 and 2x32.

I have appealed more than once for new contributions to the bank, with no success.  Spit originally built up the bank and I have made additions by breaking poor engines and donating the buckets.

We need both smaller sizes and ones in the 45 plus range. 

All 'out's' from the bank need to be replaced with whatever you might have.

Do you have the mm size of the buckets at all? Guessing these bucket sizes have been worked out with the size of the bucket rather than what is marked on them.

I will be donating all of the buckets I have to the bank - will be any of the spare ones plus another full set once I pull the stock engine.

[Carolyn]

In my experience of measuring buckets, they rarely differ significantly from the number marked on them.  Certainly not enough to make a meaningful difference.

However, I have measured them and they are as advertised.

Your contributions to the bank will be gratefully appreciated!

I take it you want these?

[m1tch]

In my experience of measuring buckets, they rarely differ significantly from the number marked on them.  Certainly not enough to make a meaningful difference.

However, I have measured them and they are as advertised.

Your contributions to the bank will be gratefully appreciated!

I take it you want these?

I thought that buckets only go up in even steps but I guess there are inbetween bucket sizes as well - as you mention even if they are 2-4 sizes different they will still be within spec as the sizes I am aiming for are mid point - will be double checking the exact thicknesses to match them against the clearances. One '28' bucket might be say closer to a 30 whereas another might be only just a 28 - I am probably getting a bit too accurate on these as I only have a set of feeler gauges that go to 0.05mm so not quite as accurate as a micrometer!

It would be great if I could have them - as mentioned, once I get my engine together I am happy to send over all of my spare buckets. Would have around 60 spare at that point in the 38 to 50 range, have rejected a couple of them as they seem to have been run with less oiling and have worn slightly but most are in great condition.

[Carolyn]

Yes, you're being a tad OCD on thicknesses!

PM your address and I'll send them - or as you're only in Bedford, you could come and do a socially distanced pick-up.

[m1tch]

Thanks to @Carolyn and the bucket bank I have now managed to clearance the stock camshafts with the Supertech valvetrain and will be donating 40+ buckets to the bucket bank for others to use.

I am still waiting to hear back from pipercams in terms of their solution but happy to run the stock cams for the time being. Slightly easier to change cams over in the car than something like pistons!

[Mikeymead]

Looks like I may be in a similar situation, reading this got me thinking (more worried actually) so checked the stock cams from the spare engine against the Piper fast road na cams that I have just got and yes the heal end(?) of the cam is significantly smaller, I might get away with it on the intake cam but I can't see it on the exhaust side. I will have to do a better more thorougher check one Sunday.

I can understand why they make the cams like this but it would be nice if you were told before you bought them, I did get them cheap from a third party seller who has now stopped trading so am probably up bu**erd  but they will make nice lamp stands if nothing else.

Best thing is I have an other set as well so will have to check them, something in the back of my mind tells me that on that set it is only the inlet cam that is re-profiled but I've probably got that wrong.

[m1tch]

Looks like I may be in a similar situation, reading this got me thinking (more worried actually) so checked the stock cams from the spare engine against the Piper fast road na cams that I have just got and yes the heal end(?) of the cam is significantly smaller, I might get away with it on the intake cam but I cant see it on the Exhaust side. I will have to do a better more thorougher check one Sunday.

I can understand why they make the cams like this but it would be nice if you were told before you bought them, I did get them cheap from a third party seller who has now stopped trading so am probably up bu**erd  but they will make nice lamp stands if nothing else.

Best thing is I have an other set as well so will have to check them, something in the back of my mind tells me that on that set it is only the inlet cam that is re-profiled but I've probably got that wrong.

Think I bought from the same seller - will see what Pipercams say if they actually get back to me, I thought Pipercams were pretty good but I guess I am mistaken.

[Mikeymead]

I did email them in the past asking if the first set I bought needed uprated springs and I did get a reply, maybe the current situation with Covid-19 might have something to do with the lack of replies?

[m1tch]

I did email them in the past asking if the first set I bought needed uprated springs and I did get a reply, maybe the current situation with Covid-19 might have something to do with the lack of replies?

I think they are a bit slower to respond, will let you know if they get back to me though.

[jonbill]

piper's website doesn't list mr2 mk3  or the 1zz engine at all, at least I can't find it.
I suspect Piper just reground cams to order from the people you bought from. IMO your beef is with them, not Piper.

[m1tch]

piper's website doesn't list mr2 mk3  or the 1zz engine at all, at least I can't find it.
I suspect Piper just reground cams to order from the people you bought from. IMO your beef is with them, not Piper.

They are custom ground, Crower cams use a fresh blank for their cams, was expecting the same from Pipercams rather than just grinding a used camshaft - thought that they would have done some checking to see how they are usually clearanced before grinding away the base circle.

[Mikeymead]

piper's website doesn't list mr2 mk3  or the 1zz engine at all, at least I can't find it.
I suspect Piper just reground cams to order from the people you bought from. IMO your beef is with them, not Piper.

You may well be right Jon, In my case I will have a better chance contacting aliens!

[shnazzle]

I've only ever seen pipers on a 2zz now that I think of it

[Mikeymead]

So being slightly more up to date with work and having nothing better to do today I still went to my workshop to do some valve gap measuring with the three sets of cams and the cylinder head from my spare engine.

Here are the results:-
You cannot view this attachment.

At this moment I'm not sure how I will get over this as I don't think Buckets go big enough

[Joesson]

Caveat emptor! But it would seem that is not just once that seller got it wrong.

[shnazzle]

How can the gaps be so big?? 
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?

[Call the midlife!]

After watching the skid factory fitting the cams in the Mk 1 engine they used shims under the buckets to make the gaps up.
Different engine, granted but essentially the same principle.

[Mikeymead]

After watching the skid factory fitting the cams in the Mk 1 engine they used shims under the buckets to make the gaps up.
Different engine, granted but essentially the same principle.

Yes that's probably the way to do it, they faced the same issue on Project Binky, they were going to go shimless using 1zz buckets on a 3sgte but couldn't as the buckets wouldn't go thick enough so had to keep the shimmed buckets.

[Mikeymead]

How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?

I guess that these are reground stock cams, they get the greater lift by basically reducing the size of the cam heel. Therefore the gap has to be adjusted to compensate and the lift is increased. Quite cleaver really but also annoying. 

[shnazzle]

How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?

I guess that these are reground stock cams, they get the greater lift by basically reducing the size of the cam heel. Therefore the gap has to be adjusted to compensate and the lift is increased. Quite cleaver really but also annoying. 

That's really rather poor. No offense m1tch  

But if I wanted higher lift cams I'd want the lobes higher and with longer duration, not the actual cam ground down! That's cheating

[Mikeymead]

How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?

I guess that these are reground stock cams, they get the greater lift by basically reducing the size of the cam heel. Therefore the gap has to be adjusted to compensate and the lift is increased. Quite cleaver really but also annoying. 

That's really rather poor. No offense m1tch

But if I wanted higher lift cams I'd want the lobes higher and with longer duration, not the actual cam ground down! That's cheating

Not m1tch's fault, we were both duped!, I suppose it keeps the costs down.