Engine Management

[shnazzle]

One of my favourite topics obviously. 
I rolled into this stuff because 
A) I built up an unhealthy obsession with fuel trims and understanding them
B) We got a car that had bad tune, so it all went downhill from there.

Got introduced to ECUMaster products and that's where the ball started rolling. Unfortunately my tinkering days on that ecu were cut short before I got it fully sorted but the interest continued.
Spent a good fortune on courses, and the things you learn... 
Eye-opening. 

One of these things is that it brought to light one common myth; that factory engine management is best. 
Good news is; our ECU's, from what I've been able to see, are pretty darn rock-solid. There's always safety margins you can remove to squeeze out a bit more power on a stock car, but I would say it's generally ill-advised. 
Once you start modifying the car, that changes. 

But one BAD example was Ford. I recently gained access to the Ford calibration software and used that on a friend's Focus. 
The maps are simplistic. Almost "thrown together". I asked the friend to plug it in on day and drive to get some logging. 
About 3 weeks later he handed me 47 logs. 
I opened the biggest one and yahtzee!.. Engine knock. Not massive but enough to see the knock timing adjustment line on the move quite a few times in certain areas. This is a mass-produced 2010 Ford. Tsk Tsk. 

Then today (about 6 months later). I see this interesting video;
https://youtu.be/RbEoSHsWias
Same thing on a Subaru! Exact same. With the addition of this one running pig rich.

What's going on here??  
Don't make em like they used to. 

More locally, we're seeing a lot more interest in members tinkering with standalone ecu's like Apexi POWERFC, Ecumaster Black, Link G4+. 
Probably because a lot more people are modifying cars more heavily, requiring changes to the ecu. 

Maybe time we start a section on here to collate knowledge? Share experiences in mapping for our cars, be it piggyback ECU or standalone. 
Maybe just an area to front questions from people who want to know how something works?

[thetyrant]

Lots of modern ecu setups rely more on the sensors and dynamic trims to fuel/ign rather than just the solid base maps with few basic sensors it seems, in my experience they mostly seem to run very lean and right on edge constant knocking no doubt for some emissions/efficiency reasons i would think, also means that any of sensors not working 100% can throw the whole lot out of wack which can make fault finding difficult!

I wouldnt say its a bad thing and they obviously do it this way for a reason but it can make it hard to understand what is good and bad from quick browse of some logs, it might look like its knocking badly but the ecu should be keeping it on the right side of safety, at least when all sensors are working correctly!

 I remember spending ages tweaking out what looked like bad knock on logs on my Evo5 after increasing boost and it just made car flat to drive, got some detcans on and tried again starting with same stock tune, it wasn't audibly knocking and sensor is far more sensitive/tuned to what it deems to be dangerous levels of knock etc where the ecu then pulls timing back, speaking to a few guys with lots more experience on this system its common and understanding and monitoring everything is the key as well as experience of that engine etc.

Ive not a huge amount of experience but have tinkered with a few systems on my cars as below.

Mitsi Evo2 - Apexi SAFC for mild fuel tweak to slight boost tweak.
Mitsi Evo2 - Autronic standalone EcU, first proper ecu fiddle
Mazda MX Supercharged with Emanange Blue on oem ecu, worked well upto a certain point.
Mitsi Evo5 - Oem ecu tweaks with EcuFlash software via OBD
Mitsi Evo9 - as above
Bmw 135i N54 coupe - Remapped with Cobb Access port
BMW 135i n55 coupe - as above
Toyota GT86 Supercharged - Ecutek tweaks to stock ecu
Link G4+ on N/A and Turbo 1zz MR2 roadster

Link software was probably my favorite as its nice and simple to use and with live tuning as well as onboard and laptop logging, in fact probably too easy as it was hard to resist to urge to "go do a few logs to tweak!"  
The Ecuflash software on my later Evos was least fave as less friendly to use and slow, although to be fair i didnt a spend a lot of time with it, when i had it at least there was no live tuning so you have to log, park up and engine off, review log/tweak then reflash ecu and go again, slow progress compared to live tuning on Link etc.

[Call the midlife!]

As previously discussed, if it hadn't have been for the current situation I would've been abusing both our friendship and your hospitality already while letting you abuse my car...
But as the lovely Dame Vera is fond of saying some day soon I'll be "back once again with the ill behaviour..."

[Dev]

Factory engine management is not necessarily best for power, emission or reliability however it is a balance of these three for varying conditions with loose enough tolerances for sensor drift so you don't run on the edge. The engineers go though all sorts of trouble to get it right based on their failure models. The ECU is also built tough to handle aging, vibration and rough weather conditions to a very high degree. This might not be true of all manufactures but on the whole Toyota generally gets it right.
 
 When you go outside the scope of this balance you might gain in one area but you might fall out of balance in another. In most cases its engine longevity of running too rich. It doesn't mean you shouldn't as you can be benefited by gains that you can enjoy for a trade off in other areas and still be practical. 

[potge]

Factory engine management is not necessarily best for power, emission or reliability however it is a balance of these three for varying conditions with loose enough tolerances for sensor drift so you don't run on the edge. The engineers go though all sorts of trouble to get it right based on their failure models. The ECU is also built tough to handle aging, vibration and rough weather conditions to a very high degree. This might not be true of all manufactures but on the whole Toyota generally gets it right.
 
 When you go outside the scope of this balance you might gain in one area but you might fall out of balance in another. In most cases its engine longevity of running too rich. It doesn't mean you shouldn't as you can be benefited by gains that you can enjoy for a trade off in other areas and still be practical. 

I completely echo this. What has definitely changed though, are the development times. Companies are pushing more and more models/variants with more complex electrical architecture and more ECU`s per car, in less time and definitely without proportional increase in human resources. Making a calibration that meets 100000 criteria, plus constant and geographic legislation changes, is a very very difficult task and ultimately it is a compromise. Sometimes not the best. 
On the same time, aftermarket ECU`s are getting more and more powerful and people are getting more familiar with their setup. Having said that, sometimes it is a bit unfair comparison. In many aftermarket solutions sensors are better and much more expensive than the standard ones. One typical example are wideband sensors.

[shnazzle]

The OEM ecu in my our cars is one I've always been in awe of. It's so flexible while still making the car run as it should. It's strong, secure, robust. How many ecu's have we seen go bust? None I think. 
Hell I've shorted mine out by mistake.. No ill effect. 

Volkswagen is another one for keeping the car running well despite crap sensors, bad maintenance, abhorrent running conditions. They just plod on. 

I know how much testing goes into modern day Land Rovers. Can't explain their horrendous electrics but I blame @manos3003 for not testing them properly.

And then some yokel like us comes on with a turbo and ruins it all Rude, really.

What is interesting is that most (all?) aftermarket ECUs come with a note saying for off-road use only. I'm guessing that's because they're not industry-standard-tested for emissions, safety etc.
But then... VW passed with their diesel ecu's... I shall say no more.

I would recommend anybody to have  a look at what ecu's do. You know how your engine works (generally), so, wouldn't it be good to know everything that little box of tricks behind your passenger's back does?

[potge]

What is interesting is that most (all?) aftermarket ECUs come with a note saying for off-road use only. I'm guessing that's because they're not industry-standard-tested for emissions, safety etc.
But then... VW passed with their diesel ecu's... I shall say no more.

I would expect all, but not sure either. It is mainly due to safety, legislation and liability indeed. I don`t know if they adhere to any ISO/IEC standard. Diesel gate was just a dodgy SW application implementation. ECU was working fine...
Truth being told, these units both the HW and the SW are not developed with safety as their top target  .  But I presume/hope many did not start entirely from scratch and they have some commonality with production ECU`s. Cannot really say the same in the SW we create and run  .

What is a bit funny, is when you consider that a very big portion of the cars on the field are running with the same Bosch (or quite similar) unit, yet the user experience varies so much.

[shnazzle]

What is interesting is that most (all?) aftermarket ECUs come with a note saying for off-road use only. I'm guessing that's because they're not industry-standard-tested for emissions, safety etc.
But then... VW passed with their diesel ecu's... I shall say no more.

I would expect all, but not sure either. It is mainly due to safety, legislation and liability indeed. I don`t know if they adhere to any ISO/IEC standard. Diesel gate was just a dodgy SW application implementation. ECU was working fine...
Truth being told, these units both the HW and the SW are not developed with safety as their top target  .  But I presume/hope many did not start entirely from scratch and they have some commonality with production ECU`s. Cannot really say the same in the SW we create and run  .

What is a bit funny, is when you consider that a very big portion of the cars on the field are running with the same Bosch (or quite similar) unit, yet the user experience varies so much.

Indeed. Just a simple case of how much easy manufacturer is willing to spend on calibration.

[Dev]

 One other thing you have to consider with the factory ECU is the safety for others on the road. If your cam sensor fails while you are driving on the highway your car could unexpectedly shut down which can be an issue for other drivers when making maneuvers and keeping up to speed.  The factory ECU will fire the spark plugs multiple times to keep time where a stand alone ECUs will just shut down the car abruptly. Unfortunately even factory ECUs will get old and the capacitors will lose their capacitance causing ECUs to do weird things or just fail altogether. I had a car where it was common practice to replace the dielectric caps because the would fail around the 10 year mark.  I do not know how long these ECUs can last but age is a factor to take into consideration and it might be a good idea to get the boards refurbished.   

[shnazzle]

All a bit by the by if you've modded the car past the capabilities of the stock ECU.

I've definitely seen sensor failure strategies on aftermarket ecu's. The thought behind that isn't safety, but engine preservation... Which in turn leads to better safety I guess. 

It does highlight the job standalone ecu's have to do. Big shoes to fill.
It's not just a device to manage fuel and ignition. 
That's what make them so interesting to me. All the strategies, compensation tables, triggers, virtual inputs/outputs, etc.

[JB21]

Would I see much gains from an aftermarket ecu and tune on my 2zz? Only mods are Rogue custom intake with cold air feed. Rouge custom header and 200cel sports cat, aftermarket silencer, HKS etc. Car ran on 99ron fuel only.

[shnazzle]

Would I see much gains from an aftermarket ecu and tune on my 2zz? Only mods are Rogue custom intake with cold air feed. Rouge custom header and 200cel sports cat, aftermarket silencer, HKS etc. Car ran on 99ron fuel only.

No. You'd definitely see gains, but worth the 1500ish outlay?  Meh. If save it until you start modding a bit more.


On 1zz pretty much everybody has seen a 10-15hp gain just from going standalone. Which makes sense. Remove the safety margins, easily releases 10-15.

[JB21]

Would I see much gains from an aftermarket ecu and tune on my 2zz? Only mods are Rogue custom intake with cold air feed. Rouge custom header and 200cel sports cat, aftermarket silencer, HKS etc. Car ran on 99ron fuel only.

No. You'd definitely see gains, but worth the 1500ish outlay?  Meh. If save it until you start modding a bit more.


On 1zz pretty much everybody has seen a 10-15hp gain just from going standalone. Which makes sense. Remove the safety margins, easily releases 10-15.

Would the apexi fc do the job or would it be better to go with something more modern like the AEM EMS4?

[shnazzle]

Would I see much gains from an aftermarket ecu and tune on my 2zz? Only mods are Rogue custom intake with cold air feed. Rouge custom header and 200cel sports cat, aftermarket silencer, HKS etc. Car ran on 99ron fuel only.

No. You'd definitely see gains, but worth the 1500ish outlay?  Meh. If save it until you start modding a bit more.


On 1zz pretty much everybody has seen a 10-15hp gain just from going standalone. Which makes sense. Remove the safety margins, easily releases 10-15.

Would the apexi fc do the job or would it be better to go with something more modern like the AEM EMS4?

Apexi definitely does the job. It's old but proven and it's the only true replacement standalone for the stock ECU. All the others need the stock ECU to remain in place to maintain some of the dash functionality.
Well, unless you've got a jazzy box of tricks or a digital dash replacement

[Dev]

 I sold my Apexi Power FC because of some people reporting various failures on multiple platforms as well as ours. For racing it would be fine but for street use I wouldn't trust it because I do not believe it is as durable. There were some that reported failures before I bought mine that I thought at the time was rare but once I seen more across other platforms It concerned me and I decided to sell it and go back to the proven OEM ECU. The older non volatile memory is known to go bad or the circuits that are used to control various functions like cooling fans have had issues. 
 The AEM EMS4 has been reported to be great across multiple platforms and from what I hear a lot of tuners are familiar with it.

[shnazzle]

Similarly there are quite a few apexi-based cars on this forum that have been running happy as a pig in mud for years.

It's old kit and quite frankly I wouldn't have it, but I can definitely see the convenience and attraction of the plug/play nature of the apexi. None of that messy wiring with the stock ECU. Gauges work. You do lose your immobiliser if you have one. 

If someone would just find a way to get the some of the Toyota BEANS network decoded, we wouldn't have to mess about with keeping the stock ECU in place

[Dev]

Similarly there are quite a few apexi-based cars on this forum that have been running happy as a pig in mud for years.

It's old kit and quite frankly I wouldn't have it, but I can definitely see the convenience and attraction of the plug/play nature of the apexi. None of that messy wiring with the stock ECU. Gauges work. You do lose your immobiliser if you have one.

If someone would just find a way to get the some of the Toyota BEANS network decoded, we wouldn't have to mess about with keeping the stock ECU in place

The AEM EMS although it hooks up in line with the factory ECU has better technology and its easy to adapt  with a  plug and play harness. Its not that much different on the ease of being plug and play and less mess with wires if you use the harness.   The power FC was good for its time but much better is out there and it can be quiet reliable with support from a larger community of owners and tuners. 

[m1tch]

I am running a Link Xtreme standalone ECU but retained the stock ECU to run the clocks.

[Dev]

 Here is a good example of what you get with the EMS-4 for our platform.
 From what I understand it is a rugged system and it will have knock control and higher resolution which the older PFC will not have and one of the many reasons why I sold mine. It will be weather and heat resistant to be reliable and many turners know the software. Keep in mind that the price is higher than a PFC but with the PFC you need a separate module to connect to a laptop which only drives up the cost of the PFC. Although my turning days are over I might just get a used Camcon unit for a modest increase in power using the stock ECU which is a good option for keeping it safe.   

https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/mwr-aem-ems4-ecu-kit-corolla-matrix-vibe-05-06-2zz/

[JB21]

Would the ECUMASTER DET3 get decent gains when tuned?

Williams engine management systems sell the det3 and harness adapter for £300.

[shnazzle]

Would the ECUMASTER DET3 get decent gains when tuned?

Williams engine management systems sell the det3 and harness adapter for £300.

Unlikely to cause nothing but issues. 


Put it this way, ECUMaster UK's own main seller didn't recommend running it on a vvti car

[JB21]

WEMS do the AEM EMS 4 harness for celica/corolla 2zz ecu for £200.

You can get the EMS 4 for just under £600.

So £800 gets you the hardware in the UK.

EFI parts runcorn charge £150 an hour tuning with a cap of £600.

More than likely need a 3bar sensor another £100

So £1500 all in. So bloody expensive just to squeeze a few more ponies out the 2zz.

[Dev]

Would the ECUMASTER DET3 get decent gains when tuned?

Williams engine management systems sell the det3 and harness adapter for £300.

Unlikely to cause nothing but issues.


Put it this way, ECUMaster UK's own main seller didn't recommend running it on a vvti car

I thought that this was supposed to be a good solution from what I initially read here.  What were the issues with the ECUMaster?  software, hardware or electronic failures?

[Dev]

WEMS do the AEM EMS 4 harness for celica/corolla 2zz ecu for £200.

You can get the EMS 4 for just under £600.

So £800 gets you the hardware in the UK.

EFI parts runcorn charge £150 an hour tuning with a cap of £600.

More than likely need a 3bar sensor another £100

So £1500 all in. So bloody expensive just to squeeze a few more ponies out the 2zz.

If you are just trying to pull a few extra out of the 2ZZ have you considered the Camcon unit. You can probably pick it up used for very little and it is safe to road tune.

[JB21]

WEMS do the AEM EMS 4 harness for celica/corolla 2zz ecu for £200.

You can get the EMS 4 for just under £600.

So £800 gets you the hardware in the UK.

EFI parts runcorn charge £150 an hour tuning with a cap of £600.

More than likely need a 3bar sensor another £100

So £1500 all in. So bloody expensive just to squeeze a few more ponies out the 2zz.

If you are just trying to pull a few extra out of the 2ZZ have you considered the Camcon unit. You can probably pick it up used for very little and it is safe to road tune.

Never heard of it buddy? What is it, got a link to one?