Engine Management

[shnazzle]

Would the ECUMASTER DET3 get decent gains when tuned?

Williams engine management systems sell the det3 and harness adapter for £300.

Unlikely to cause nothing but issues.


Put it this way, ECUMaster UK's own main seller didn't recommend running it on a vvti car

I thought that this was supposed to be a good solution from what I initially read here.  What were the issues with the ECUMaster?  software, hardware or electronic failures?

Oh no absolutely no gripes with ECUMASTER. Amazing products and I'm a huge fan. Not flawless but they're building one hell of a product that's already inching towards the high end of the market within a few years.


But DET3 is a piggyback in the best case and a piggyback with standalone injection in the worst case. 

Basically his gripe was the fakery of the piggyback based on modifying the crank signal, and the effect that had on vvti.

Having said that, plenty have got their cars running fine on it. But, still.. 300gbp for "fine" and maybe a few horses? 
Better spent on tyres, refresh suspension bushes, retrim some interior bits, new exhaust, manifold, etc.

[Dev]

WEMS do the AEM EMS 4 harness for celica/corolla 2zz ecu for £200.

You can get the EMS 4 for just under £600.

So £800 gets you the hardware in the UK.

EFI parts runcorn charge £150 an hour tuning with a cap of £600.

More than likely need a 3bar sensor another £100

So £1500 all in. So bloody expensive just to squeeze a few more ponies out the 2zz.

If you are just trying to pull a few extra out of the 2ZZ have you considered the Camcon unit. You can probably pick it up used for very little and it is safe to road tune.

Never heard of it buddy? What is it, got a link to one?

Here is some information on it.  Just note a few things.
1. It will not give you as much as a PFC.
2. the same controller is used for both Honda VTEC and Toyota VVT.
3. They give you a base tune or you can try a few different tunes that others have programed.
4. If you do something stupid the car will throw a CEL and no damage will happen.
5. You can turn it on or off and notice the difference or not notice a difference.
6. You don't need to buy the new version. You can pick up a used version on EBay for not much money. I seen them sell as low as $150 if you wait long enough since they are popular with the Honda community. 
7. The best way to have it tuned is always on a Dyno but that costs lots of money. You can get by with a little gain but for the amount spent its an ok value that might yield you 10hp which is not bad.

http://www.jdm-option.com/eng/parts/06_07/camcon.html

[JB21]

@shnazzle quick question on the EMS 4. My car runs the 1zz ecu for clocks etc and the corolla 2zz ecu for engine control.

With the WEMS harness which ECU would i connect it to 1zz or 2zz?

Asked the same question to MWR in the US and they say I wouldn't need the 2zz ECU.

Just can't get my head around how the EMS 4 wouldnt need the 2zz ECU to run the engine.

[manos3003]

One other thing you have to consider with the factory ECU is the safety for others on the road. If your cam sensor fails while you are driving on the highway your car could unexpectedly shut down which can be an issue for other drivers when making maneuvers and keeping up to speed.  The factory ECU will fire the spark plugs multiple times to keep time where a stand alone ECUs will just shut down the car abruptly. Unfortunately even factory ECUs will get old and the capacitors will lose their capacitance causing ECUs to do weird things or just fail altogether. I had a car where it was common practice to replace the dielectric caps because the would fail around the 10 year mark.  I do not know how long these ECUs can last but age is a factor to take into consideration and it might be a good idea to get the boards refurbished.   

Engine protection protocols are now improved on standalone ECUs. Not to the level we have on factory ECUs, granted, but still not bad at all.

One of the things that might be worth exploring is cases where they install a daughterboard on a stock ECU to manipulate combustion parametres and key safety limits related to the increased max capability of the new setup, allowing all the functional safety and diagnostic protocols to be kept running in the background to allow the user to have the confidence to tune away having the safety protocols stopping them from doing something silly with potentially irreversible damage.

Oh and @shnazzle I do test them Land Rovers thoroughly malaka, it's the hardware teams that surprise us with last minute changes.

[shnazzle]

Thread revival. And very sorry @JB21 for missing your post!
It was not intentional. I'm guessing your question is answered by now. And I hope you didn't go for the EMS4 anyway but for completeness, you wouldn't need the 2zz ecu because the EMS4 would be doing all of the fueling etc. The 1zz ecu is just there to run the clocks. So they were right.

Daughter-boards are quite rare aren't they? Can only really think of Hondas that they do it with

[Dev]

One other thing you have to consider with the factory ECU is the safety for others on the road. If your cam sensor fails while you are driving on the highway your car could unexpectedly shut down which can be an issue for other drivers when making maneuvers and keeping up to speed.  The factory ECU will fire the spark plugs multiple times to keep time where a stand alone ECUs will just shut down the car abruptly. Unfortunately even factory ECUs will get old and the capacitors will lose their capacitance causing ECUs to do weird things or just fail altogether. I had a car where it was common practice to replace the dielectric caps because the would fail around the 10 year mark.  I do not know how long these ECUs can last but age is a factor to take into consideration and it might be a good idea to get the boards refurbished.   

Engine protection protocols are now improved on standalone ECUs. Not to the level we have on factory ECUs, granted, but still not bad at all.

One of the things that might be worth exploring is cases where they install a daughterboard on a stock ECU to manipulate combustion parametres and key safety limits related to the increased max capability of the new setup, allowing all the functional safety and diagnostic protocols to be kept running in the background to allow the user to have the confidence to tune away having the safety protocols stopping them from doing something silly with potentially irreversible damage.

Oh and @shnazzle I do test them Land Rovers thoroughly malaka, it's the hardware teams that surprise us with last minute changes.

Not a daughterboard per say but they do have something called a Camcon unit that hooks up to the ECU wiring. You can either follow directions on where to splice or buy the specific  wiring harness.
 The Camcon does exactly what you are writing about. It controls fuel, ignition timing and VVT however it is still within the limits of the ECU parameters. If you mess up it will throw a CEL and into limp mode you go so you don't blow your engine.
 You can find used Camcon units cheap on Ebay because the same unit also works for Honda Vtech. These have proven to make power but not as much as a stand alone but who cares its cheap and safe.



 

[FredyCro]

Looking into piggyback ECU options and ECUMaster DET3 surfaced.

https://www.ecumaster.com/products/digital-ecu-tuner-3/

Any firsthand experience with this specific piggyback? In general with Ecumaster?

I can get it for a decent price, have some basic understanding of ICE and basic mapping from ages ago when I tuned my ex clio. Thinking of tinkering with my 1zz and this seems like a best buy option so far.

Cheers for helping out!

[shnazzle]

@1979scotte had one but it was nowhere near sufficient for his needs.

Piggyback is pretty wasted on 1zz as the stock ecu is just too damn clever.
BUT.. For what it costs, it's a great way to introduce yourself to engine management.

[1979scotte]

Looking into piggyback ECU options and ECUMaster DET3 surfaced.

https://www.ecumaster.com/products/digital-ecu-tuner-3/

Any firsthand experience with this specific piggyback? In general with Ecumaster?

I can get it for a decent price, have some basic understanding of ICE and basic mapping from ages ago when I tuned my ex clio. Thinking of tinkering with my 1zz and this seems like a best buy option so far.

Cheers for helping out!

The det3 is as good as any piggyback out there.
Wasn't up to the job on a wasted spark V6 but will be better on a 4 pot.
I wouldn't bother with piggyback myself too many drawbacks they seem to fight with the stock ecu rather than play nicely.

[FredyCro]

The det3 is as good as any piggyback out there.
Wasn't up to the job on a wasted spark V6 but will be better on a 4 pot.
I wouldn't bother with piggyback myself too many drawbacks they seem to fight with the stock ecu rather than play nicely.

My reasoning is that I need something to be able to optimise my engines performance (1zz ATM) 99% DD usage, I do have some mods planned (Im more inclined to work on 1ZZ then swap 2ZZ, honda is #1 option ATM but $$$) and need to take full advantage of them (mild NA mods), SA is way too much hassle and once you go that road (new wiring etc.) it becomes basically super difficult to sell at any reasonable price vs investment, it is a DD so I cant have it for days/ weeks off the road while I sort all the gremling associated often with SA etc.

If I decide to go there as I see it now it would go something like this: get DET3, get WB (Bosch?), sort setting it up (HW & SW part), optimise, log, optimise, log... FIngers crossed I dont mess it up

Btw this whole zzw30 experience reminds me up to a degree to my old project Clio II RS. This was almost 15 ago now